JW Insider

I just got off the plane (from Vancouver) and saw the above when my wi-fi came back on. It's a fake story, of course. You can still see the picture as it was used in a newspaper article about 2 years ago. https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/dec/1/donald-trump-touts-lifestyle-without-alcohol-drugs/ The earliest appearance of the picture that I found is from December 1, 2015, when Trump was campaigning in New Hampshire. Someone might have thought that the girl looked Vietnamese, so the picture was used again to create "news" about his visit to Hanoi.

We're back to that problem again of trying to use the idea of conscience in a court of law as an obfuscation. You are right that very few Witnesses leave anything up to conscience. It's "spiritual" peer pressure to conform, where not conforming can result in anything from being looked down upon by peers, or a loss of privileges all the way up to being disfellowshipped yourself. I don't have a good solution, but I have seen the type of shunning of young family members that just seems childish on the part of the supposedly mature Witnesses who have to conform to the rule. I note that we no longer claim in court that corporeal punishment of minors is acceptable, and yet it obviously has Biblical precedent. I wonder if there's a way we would begin to conform to more modern norms of conduct, in obedience to the superior authorities in shunning cases, too.

I just did a quick search on this and the first thing that came up was a video: After listening to the video I'm convinced that this person at "The Patriotic Beast" -- i.e., the person who made the video and claimed that he was the one who discovered the Antifa connection -- is lying through his teeth. Doesn't mean this guy isn't Antifa, but I doubt it seriously. The way this man at TPB manipulated the data and lied about it, so that he could claim "you heard it hear first," makes me think that almost everyone else who makes or focuses on this claim is also being disingenuous -- going for the obvious attempt to get this idea out there early to blunt the post-Trumpian reputational trends that sully the right wing of his party.Â

Wow!! One of the first things I said to my wife upon seeing a picture of him was that, if it didn't turn out to be a terrorist or immigrant, Trump would desperately need this person to somehow balance the Carolina church shooting and more recent Carolina racist truck attack, and the only way he could do this now is to claim that he was Antifa. There was nothing about Antifa in any of the reports I had heard, and then I see this.

There must be a few other ways to gain protection from gunmen, other than just saying we will allow people to come into a church with guns. This is terrible news, but it was by allowing someone to come into the church with a gun that the tragedy began. People trained to use guns correctly can also end up misusing guns. Perhaps it's just as good to look into what is different in countries that have never had a mass shooting tragedy outside a military circumstance. If we can't follow those examples, then every public place may need to hire an armed guard or two, and put in gun/metal detectors at each entrance. Just started looking at the past news from this area, and looking at the satellite images and photos of this town. Looks like it's possible that upwards of 10% of this town were killed or injured.

LOL! I should start a new site called the "Grudge Report." Which reminds me, during the renovation of the Towers Hotel, brothers with a certain amount of seniority, measured by pioneer service or any other full-time service, plus their current years at Bethel, were allowed to get one of the beautiful antique, brass and copper fire extinguishers which had once been installed throughout the building. When these were shined up they were very nice souvenirs of the Towers Hotel. They looked a lot like the ones going for about $250 to $300 on e Ba y, etc. There weren't that many, but I managed to get one even though I was too low on the seniority list to be guaranteed one. (I had about 7-8 years of seniority at the time.) I left mine in a personal locker for a couple years, and when I left Bethel, it was the only thing that had been stolen. Hopefully, I can think of something for next month's issue of the "Grudge Report" or I'll have to cease publication.

First time I saw this I decided to just let it slide. But if it is going to become fixed in the firmament of my stellar past, I might as well correct it. The brother I was asked to room with (upon my arrival there) was a brother who was just leaving Bethel. It was in the room right next door to Brother and Sister Merton Campbell's, a very dear old couple who put a lot of effort into making "Family Night" entertaining, and who had a long career and many great upbuilding stories from the past. I have a picture of him from about 1957 in an old shoebox somewhere (the picture is in the shoebox, not Merton). He's out on the roof of 124 Columbia Heights. But I digress. The brother I roomed with for a few days didn't steal the money in the typical manner. He asked to borrow about $200 to get home by bus, with the promise that he would send me the money the instant he got back which would have been two days from the time I loaned the money, and I would expect to receive it within a week or so, assuming cooperation from the postal gods. Well 4 weeks went by, and no money. I didn't even know where he had gone, and I wanted to check to make sure the post office didn't lose it, or it wasn't stuck somewhere in the cracks of Bethel's bureaucracy. I asked brother Campbell if there was any way to check up on the mail. He got the story, and told me that this brother was bad news, and that I was not the first to complain of the same issue. He was in the Service Department, and said he could get the money back for me if I would first write the brother then a month later, his congregation's presiding overseer. My money appeared, via Campbell, and I started thinking of the Service Department as a kind of "secret service."

As IBA has just indicated, you can get such evidence through interpretation, and interpretations may be wide-ranging . . . and therefore more often wrong than right, even when serious, sensible and sincerely held. But interpretations are not the same as clear evidence. My first impulsive answer to the specific question would be, "Yes, there is evidence for a two-part presence, but not a two-part parousia. There are no scriptures that would indicate a two-part parousia. But Jesus said that he would be present with us from the time of his resurrection, right up until the synteleia. (Matthew 28:20) . . .And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion [synteleia] of the system of things.” Technically, using Watchtower definitions, this would mean that Jesus would be present right up until 1914, the start of the synteleia. We know from Matthew 24 that the disciples understood the synteleia to be the same as the parousia. (Probably, synteleia meant "end of all things" and parousia meant "the royal visitation judgment event.") So their question had to do with how they could identify the time period just before the parousia/synteleia so they could have an advance warning, and Jesus gave them an answer that says, basically, "Sorry, there will be no warning signs, because the parousia/synteleia will come as a thief. You might think that wars and earthquakes and famines will be the signs you are asking about, because these things will definitely take place, but don't be misled, these are not true signs of the end. So you will just have to expect trouble all throughout this generation until the parousia/synteleia is upon you, and use the time to prepare to preach and to be ready for anything." But even if you agree that this is what Jesus was saying, this is still just an interpretation of what Jesus said. There are a lot of things in Matthew 24 and elsewhere that support the interpretation, but there are many religions, not just Witnesses, that are able to read it differently: as if Jesus really was giving them warning signs that would match Revelation 12's "short period of time" leading up to his parousia/synteleia. Or, as our own publications have explained it since around 1943/44: that this parousia/synteleia would have started in 1914, somewhere between 30 years and a maximum of, say, 185* years prior to the final judgment manifestation of that same parousia/synteleia. (At 103+ years since the start, we would now be just over half-way through that possible range.) *Depending on how long Brother Sanderson, for example, might live on earth. It would be nice if it were more clear-cut, but it's basically a matter of interpretation. Like an imaginary experience I had in field service: JW: Knock, knock Hello? JW: Hello. Today, I'd like to talk to you about this article in the latest Awake! on Spiritism. Did you know there are invisible spirits around us right now? Invisibility? I just can't see that. JW: Well let me make myself clear!' [Went back for a return visit, but nothing materialized.]

Good point! I think the usual answer is: just wait, it will happen. His presence is invisible, so the "manifestation" is at the culmination of his presence before the judgment.

'Nuff said!

Quite an admission on your part. But you shouldn't use forgetfulness as a "tactic." I certainly don't. Makes you sound like someone in every congressional hearing I've ever seen. This is pure blame-shifting. You used the word "reinstate." I said I doubt it. Then you backed off your original claim about reinstatement and changed it to "come up with a Raymond supporter" and now you change it to "Bethelite and friend." So who is resorting to wordplay again? Also, you have admitted to creating multiple accounts here. I have one account. Then you admit that you speak of "team JWI" because of my true accusation against you. This is the very definition of blame-shifting. It's about the same as Pee-Wee Herman saying, "I know you are but what am I?" You are either confused, or as you admitted to doing before, perhaps you are using forgetfulness as a tactic. Including R.Franz and E.Dunlap (not including E.Chitty and L.Greenlees dismissed for unrelated reasons) only about 4, maybe 5 persons finally, were dismissed from Writing, and it was mostly the group that worked on the Aid Book. The actual expression you quote was about writers who built up the date 1975, not about dismissing people from the Writing Department: *** w80 3/15 pp. 17-18 par. 6 Choosing the Best Way of Life *** In its issue of July 15, 1976, The Watchtower, commenting on the inadvisability of setting our sights on a certain date, stated: “If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises.” In saying “anyone,” The Watchtower included all disappointed ones of Jehovah’s Witnesses, hence including persons having to do with the publication of the information that contributed to the buildup of hopes centered on that date. In fact, far from being dismissed, those persons between 1968 and 1975 were more often rewarded and promoted for it, as they were showing loyalty to a theory being especially promoted by Fred Franz in spite of the measure of doubt that some "disloyal" people were expressing. Many of these early supporters of Fred Franz were coming from the Service Department (from where "[Our] Kingdom Ministry"/"Our Kingdom Service" had included a few infamous, pro-1975 statements) and the most "loyal" of these persons were "promoted" to the Writing Department. Ironically, this very line in the "Choosing" book, was what prompted L.Greenlees to slam down on the desk of its writer (R.Lengtat) with Greenlees yelling about how this admission of guilt had "slipped through the cracks." There was a kind of unwritten rule in Writing that you NEVER admit guilt because it will be used against you. In those days, even if a false doctrine were being corrected, you never said you were "wrong" before, only that you were now "more right" -- the "light was getting even brighter." Never. I worked in the Art Department from just a few weeks after I arrived right up until I left Bethel. Simultaneously, I handled several research assignments for a specific committee reporting directly to Bert Schroeder for my last 4 years at Bethel and for a few years beyond while living in NYC. Most of the Art Department was either on or within one floor of the Writing Department at the time, just outside the Bethel Library at 124. LOL! How could anyone make such a claim? I've never claimed anything like that. I didn't say it wasn't possible, only that it wasn't substantiated as you claimed it could be. If it makes you feel better, I will admit that I consider you to be an "opposer." For a while, I admit that I really thought you might be the kind of opposer who just pretends to be a JW, so that it will appear that JWs always choose the Watchtower over the Bible no matter what the evidence. I thought you were trying to make it look like all JWs were in a cult. I soon realized that you were more likely a person who doesn't even realize he is opposing the Bible whenever the Watchtower makes an unsubstantiated claim. But I should also repeat that I love the truth of the Bible, and love the fact that the brothers who take the lead are primarily focused on serving Jehovah and they focus more on the moral character it takes to be a true Christian. Sure, we also have carried over some odd doctrinal traditions, but there is no excess focus on such kinds of doctrines. When the GB have looked more closely at some of these through careful Bible study, they have made changes that seem to be almost always for the better, in my opinion. And is it a bad thing that the rest of us follow their lead, and adjust our thinking right along with them? Not at all. It shows that we are not married to the incorrect doctrines of the past. It shows that we humbly follow along and understand that progress will continue. We don't think it necessary to get out there and clamor for changes on our own timetable. We are satisfied that the rate of progress is reasonable. When Brother Splane gave a talk about this recently, he used the example of a person who just loved the ideas about the "great pyramid" but that when the change was made, he humbly accepted and followed the lead. He used this as an example for those who just loved the ideas about the prophetic dramas in all the Bible narratives and parables. Yet now that these hundreds of doctrines are being dropped, the brothers will humbly accept and follow the lead -- appreciating the progress. This is a public forum, however, open to people who can read material and evidence from anywhere. So it is also a good place for Witnesses to show that they can hold their own opinions too. And even for fellow Witnesses, there is something called the Inoculation Effect or Inoculation Theory that can make it easier for other Witnesses to understand what kinds of changes and effect the Internet will undoubtedly have on us in the next few years. We will either have to completely change our focus onto "low-information" converts, or face facts. I prefer that we allow all ends of the information spectrum without prejudice. ---------edited to add:---------- Bethelites are most likely STILL gossiping about R.Franz and R.Wheelock and even Joe and Barbara Anderson, even in 2017. But just to keep the timeline straight, the best evidence we have on all this still comes from R.Franz himself wh says: R.Franz and his wife, Cynthia, requested a leave of absence in March 1980 and left Bethel late in March. In late April 1980 a list of questions was prepared by B.Schroeder and it was given to G.Suiter, K.Klein, J.Barr, L.Barry to begin questioning E.Dunlap first, then Schroeder himself interviewed the Writing Department. The secret tape where a Spanish brother had said that Cris Sanchez (Bethelite in Spanish Translation) had told him that even Rene Vazquez and Raymond Franz had similar questions had already been played for the Governing Body by Schroeder. I know that Schroeder was trying to set things in motion from late 1979 against R.Franz and it was finally working for him as of April 22, 1980 when Schroeder asked R.Franz if he could get to Brooklyn on April 29th. Cris Sanchez was about to be disfellowshipped a few days later, on April 25, 1980, and Bert Schroeder had evidently tried to trick Raymond Franz into a judicial meeting to be held for him on April 29, 1980 to take advantage of the momentum. The GB didn't admit to Franz that his name was involved in this until May 8, 1980 and Franz flew back on May 19, 1980 for his first "trial."

Thanks I should have looked it up. It was correct, then, that she was not at Bethel when Raymond Franz was there, and she also came in just after I left, so I was not aware of the years she spent there prior to her work on the Proclaimer's book mostly in the 1990's.

Yes. A 70 year period that ended in 539 would have to have started around 609. And this is a pretty good match for when Babylonian power reared its head over Assyria. The capital of Nineveh fell in 612 and Babylon took advantage and became the next world power. 609 was the year that Josiah died. Josiah was considered by many Jews to be the next potential Messiah, a king like David. In fact, notice that 609 is exactly the year that the Watch Tower publications point to (indirectly) when it speaks of the end of the Assyrian empire. (Remember that the WTS arbitrarily adds 20 years to every date prior to 587 B.C.E., so that 607 B.C.E.is actually 587 B.C.E., and therefore 629 B.C.E. is actually 609 B.C.E.) *** it-1 p. 205 Assyria *** According to the same chronicle, in the 14th year of Nabopolassar (632 B.C.E.), Ashur-uballit II attempted to continue Assyrian rule from Haran as his capital city. This chronicle states, under the 17th year of Nabopolassar (629 B.C.E.): “In the month Duʼuzu, Ashur-uballit, king of Assyria, (and) a large [army of] E[gy]pt [who had come to his aid] crossed the river (Euphrates) and [marched on] to conquer Harran.” (Ancient Near Eastern Texts, p. 305; brackets and parentheses theirs.) Actually, Ashur-uballit was trying to reconquer it after having been driven out. This record is in harmony with the account relative to the activity of Pharaoh Nechoh recorded at 2 Kings 23:29, which activity resulted in the death of King Josiah of Judah (c. 629 B.C.E.). This text states that “Pharaoh Nechoh the king of Egypt came up to the king of Assyria by the river Euphrates”—evidently to help him. “The king of Assyria” to whom Nechoh came may well have been Ashur-uballit II. Their campaign against Haran did not succeed. The Assyrian Empire had ended. So this is an excellent match for the 70 years of Babylonian domination from 609 to 539, spoken about by Jeremiah: (Jeremiah 25:11, 12) 11 And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.”’ 12 “‘But when 70 years have been fulfilled, I will call to account the king of Babylon and that nation for their error,’ . . . Just as the Watch Tower publications have explained it in the "Isaiah's Prophecy" book: *** ip-1 chap. 19 p. 253 par. 21 Jehovah Profanes the Pride of Tyre *** “These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) . . . Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble. So that is ONE period of 70 years that started in 609 and ended in 539. The Bible, in the book of Zechariah, also mentions another period of 70 years that starts around 587 (destruction of Jerusalem) or even 588 when the siege began, and ends around 518. Since it's been so many months I'll repeat some portions of the post you referred to, where this was explained: ------- the remainder of this post copied from a previous post (JWI: 4/14/2017) above ------- (Zechariah 1:12) . . .“O Jehovah of armies, how long will you withhold your mercy from Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with whom you have been indignant these 70 years?” (Zechariah 7:5) . . .‘When you fasted and wailed in the fifth month and in the seventh month for 70 years. . . (Zechariah 8:19) . . .‘The fast of the fourth month, the fast of the fifth month, the fast of the seventh month, and the fast of the tenth month will be occasions for exultation and joy for the house of Judah. . . *** w96 11/15 p. 5 Does God Require Fasting? *** For example, at one time the people of Judah had four annual fasts to commemorate the calamitous events associated with Jerusalem’s siege and desolation in the seventh century B.C.E. (2 Kings 25:1-4, 8, 9, 22-26; Zechariah 8:19) According to our current understanding of the chronology that includes the supposed destruction of Jerusalem in 607 BCE, then this produces a contradiction, because we date the book of Zechariah as follows: *** nwt p. 1662 Table of the Books of the Bible *** Zechariah Jerusalem rebuilt 518 520-518 [BCE] If Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 BCE, then 518 BCE is 69 years later, and therefore matches Zechariah's theme of 70 years of withheld mercy and indignities, and wailing and fasting over Jerusalem, which is now being rebuilt. If Jerusalem had been destroyed in 607 BCE, then by Zechariah's time, in 518 BCE, it would have been 89 years of wailing and fasting. Neither date is "Biblical" and neither date should really matter that much, but it is curious that 607 BCE is totally impossible from the perspective of secular evidence, and it becomes very difficult from the perspective of Biblical evidence. Yet 587 BCE is totally supported from the perspective of secular evidence and provides an excellent match to the Biblical evidence. There should really be no reason why we are not rejoicing that secular, historical, archaeological evidence for 587 BCE once again shows the Bible to be accurate and sound from a historical perspective.

I'm sure we can, too. It appears that those who worked directly with him supported him. But have you already forgotten your claim so quickly? You said that it could be substantiated that ex-Bethelites who supported R.Franz in the 80's, got DF'd in the process only to be reinstated. As you put it: Perhaps you have already backed down from this unsubstantiated claim. I think anyone would agree that there were and are R.Franz supporters, though. Barbara Anderson might be one, I don't know. But she was never at Bethel when he was there. I think she's more of a 90's Bethelite. But she completely lost her belief that this could be the truth, so I doubt anyone could talk her into coming back. Bill Bowen might or might not; I thought he blamed him for the "two-witness" rule, too. Also, he never was a Bethelite, I don't think. And I've heard he is kind of creepy. Ed Dunlap. Yes he was at Bethel, yes, the time period is right, and I've read in the R.Franz book that they were good friends, and I knew that they worked together. Not much chance he'll try for reinstatement. He died long before R.Franz did. Nestor Kuilan. That could be a candidate. He was good friends with Rene Vasquez, who was also disfellowshipped, along with Cristobal Sanchez. All of them worked on Spanish translation and all of them knew each other. But Vasquez worked outside of Bethel, and handled some Circuit Overseer assignments. That circuit covered the congregation R.Franz was in, I think. When Vasquez came to Bethel, I think he mostly came to the factory building where Sanchez and Kuilan worked (along with both their wives). I remember that Rene Vasquez sold "Shaklee" vitamins and health supplies as did many brothers in the same circuit. He had done this for years, and was one of the first and biggest suppliers in the area. That meant that a lot of other Witnesses who he had helped to get into the business were actually making a portion of their money for Vasquez, and this had become a big question that even made its way around Bethel. It turned out that some Bethelites were also selling Shaklee on the side, in the same way that a couple of sisters were selling Avon products on the side. (We didn't have the "vow of poverty" in the early 1980's.) At their next circuit assembly (in Spanish) Brother Fred Franz gave a talk and made it clear what they should do. He said: "We get OUR VITAMINS from the Faithful and Discreet Slave!!"  It wouldn't surprise me at all if R.Franz was the primary one behind the two-witness" rule. I remember some articles that came in for artwork from R.Franz, so I knew a little bit about his style. But I never saw anything specifically on the two-witness rule. Still, from the articles I did see, he was the one who was usually assigned to take on specific portions of "organization books" and some articles on congregational issues dealing with qualifications for elders, ministerial servants, disfellowshipping, reinstatement, and the like. Most of these types of articles were cut down into "Questions from Readers" and never got an "artwork" assignment anyway. A few of his that were full-fledged Watchtower articles would have no artwork, but would only get an assignment for someone to create or choose a special "headline font." Some of the writers interacted with the Art Dept and were "memorable" for their interactions, as they were hard to please. But I never saw R.Franz interact much. If someone (like Swingle) thought one of his articles could use some art, he'd request it, but I don't remember Franz personally interacting with anyone in Art. LOL. If I can remember anything "juicier" you'll be one of the first to know. Or judging by how many names you appear to be using for yourself on here, you might even be the first through the fourth persons to know.

It could very well be that Jesus now knows, and did not know when he gave the inspired prophecy of Luke 21 and Mark 13 and Matthew 24. He said the "times and seasons" were still in the Father's jurisdiction, not ours, after he was resurrected. (Acts 1:6-8). But that last point there is the key. He said that the last day would come upon humans as a surprise. In other words there would be no sign that could be used as an advance warning. A sign would spoil the surprise. This is why we remain prepared and awake at all times through our conduct, not by looking for signs and events. This is why when Jesus' disciples asked for a sign of the end, the first words out of Jesus' mouth were: "Do not be misled . . . . the end is not yet." So, that's what I was referring to as the contradiction. It goes back to the same idea that Paul was making when he said we need NOTHING to be written to us about the parousia, because it is coming as a surprise. If someone were to be able to determine that one or more events mentioned in Revelation (a plague, for example) was an event that was marked within a specific timeline (as your chart shows), then this becomes a sign of the end. But we know that there are no signs of the end that can be used to fix the times or seasons. I'm not saying that I am necessarily right in this thinking either, but just letting you know where the problem lies, as I see it.

Interesting theory. I wonder if it really is substantiated however. I have not heard of one single person who supported Raymond Franz in the 80's, got disfellowshipped, and then got reinstated. It's possible, of course, but seems unlikely. I knew one Bethelite, a person who might have supported Franz in the 80's based on his current promotion of a book that R.Franz wrote. He continued as a Bethelite until about 1984? and as an elder until about 1995, but then was disfellowshipped for an unrelated issue related to divorce and re-marriage, but who now thinks he should get back in, he claims, just to help warn more people that they should get out. But I don't think he has ever tried to get back in, and in his mental situation, what would be the chances that he could get reinstated with such a negative view of the WTS? He has views similar to "Witness." Can you imagine "Witness" trying to get re-instated (assuming he was DF'd). But this is the closest situation I know about. I imagine there are a lot of people who read Franz' books and think that a warning must go out, but it really makes no sense that people would get DF'd over their negative view of the WTS and then truly want to get back inside the WTS just to tear it down. What a waste of a life! I think it's pretty obvious who you have actually meant to target with your wild, unsubstantiated allegations. You are wrong, of course. By the way, Raymond Franz would have been one of the most difficult persons to be a supporter of while he was at Bethel, as he was always friendly with a smile, but very few words. His weeks where he handled morning worship were never about any controversial subjects, almost always just Christian conduct and character. He was extremely quiet, unassuming and stayed very busy in his office when at work, and handled a lot of Branch visits. Most of the Governing Body did not do multi-stop Branch visits. Otherwise, he spent a lot of time in his own congregation. So what was to "support"? In my own experience, I got married in the early 1980's and remained in New York so that I was even able to continue several research projects reporting to Bethel, which did not completely wane until 1984. I have never been disfellowshipped. Two brothers from the Writing Department gave our wedding talk, and one of them actually did fade away several years later and I haven't spoken to him since then. But the other remained in his position as editor of the Watchtower well into the 2000's. In 2013, I was asked to give the funeral talk for a person from his old congregation in NYC since he couldn't get there on time. (He lived in Patterson.) He got there later, and we ended up sharing the talk in much the same way as he had shared our wedding talk with another speaker. This was Brother Fred Rusk. Also, can you explain your reference to "Mabon"? I looked the name up in Wikipedia and can't see what you are trying to say. Religion and mythology Mabon, the Autumnal equinox in some versions of the Pagan Wheel of the Year Mabon ap Modron, a figure in Welsh Arthurian legend Maponos, a pre-Christian Celtic god Mabyn or Mabon, an early Cornish saint People Willie Mabon (1925–1985), American singer & songwriter Dickson Mabon (1925–2008), Scottish politician William Abraham (trade unionist), also known as Mabon (1842-1922), Welsh politician

This is exactly where I was going with the idea that ... The difference, at this point at least, is that I want to see if there is a way to make sense of the time prophecy without contradicting Jesus' words that the end-times events would come without warning. I have read your blog articles and find them to be very interesting, but can't yet get over the contradiction with Jesus' words (and Paul's words). I know that your URL's will be removed soon by a moderator. You would do better to just point out that there is an article that can be found that explains your point of view, and perhaps quote from it in small portions. Also, thanks for your chart. I've seen that from other posts, too. Perhaps if you merely pointed out the Italian title for one of the articles, you wouldn't have to include the URL link, and if someone wanted to find it, they could search on Google.

True, I intended to point that out, even though we should all be very aware of this, and it's something that will come up directly in a discussion of the meaning of the 1,260 days. But it is also possibly true that Daniel contained some wording in the original and/or the LXX version that was changed by the second century C.E. to conform to the current Masoretic version. (We know this is true of the 70 weeks prophecy.) And it's also possible that Daniel (in Jesus' day) already contained some of the portions and additions that the New World Translation and most other translations leave out. This might even be why Jesus added: (Matthew 24:15) . . .as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place (let the reader use discernment), Perhaps it is also a side point related to 1 John: (1 John 4:1) . . .Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired statement, but test the inspired statements to see whether they originate with God,. . .

One could go off on many tangents from this point, but I think there is a kind of "unified theory" available from within the context of all these verses that combines the basic ideas of each reference to a 3.5 year period mentioned above. A couple of them can even be taken literally, and I think those ones also provide a symbolic foundation for the others. This next point is controversial, and I mention it only as a possibility to think about. It's not really a necessary part of any new idea about the 1,260 days, but it's a perspective that could point in the same direction. Here's the idea: It seems very possible that all the the prophets effectively pointed to Jesus' and his accomplishments in the first century. I think that this means that no important prophecy reaches to any specific event past the first century, except for the one most important single event that will come as a complete surprise, the "parousia" (also known as the "manifestation", the "revelation", the "conclusion", the "synteleia", the "judgment", the "resurrection", the "harpazo", the "harvest", the "day of the Lord".) This doesn't mean that the book of Revelation had to be written prior to 70 C.E., as some scholars claim. Even if Revelation had been written after the year 100, it still could refer primarily to events of the first century, which might make sense only as we start to focus on a few of them. The idea that the prophets pointed to the first century is strongly implied in several places: (Luke 24:44-49) 44 He then said to them: “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was yet with you, that all the things written about me in the Law of Moses and in the Prophets and Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then he opened up their minds fully to grasp the meaning of the Scriptures, 46 and he said to them, “This is what is written: that the Christ would suffer and rise from among the dead on the third day, 47 and on the basis of his name, repentance for forgiveness of sins would be preached in all the nations—starting out from Jerusalem. 48 You are to be witnesses of these things. 49 And look! I am sending upon you what my Father promised. You, though, stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.” (Revelation 19:10) . . .I am only a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who have the work of witnessing concerning Jesus. Worship God! For the witness concerning Jesus is what inspires prophecy.” (Matthew 11:12-15) 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press, and those pressing forward are seizing it. 13 For all, the Prophets and the Law, prophesied until John; 14 and if you are willing to accept it, he is ‘E·liʹjah who is to come.’ 15 Let the one who has ears listen (Matthew 13:16, 17) 16 “However, happy are your eyes because they see and your ears because they hear. 17 For truly I say to you, many prophets and righteous men desired to see the things you are observing but did not see them, and to hear the things you are hearing but did not hear them. (Matthew 23:34-38) 34 For this reason, I am sending to you prophets and wise men and public instructors. Some of them you will kill and execute on stakes, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zech·a·riʹah son of Bar·a·chiʹah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. (Luke 11:49-51) . . ., 50 so that the blood of all the prophets spilled from the founding of the world may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel down to the blood of Zech·a·riʹah, who was killed between the altar and the house.’ Yes, I tell you, it will be charged against this generation. (Luke 16:16) 16 “The Law and the Prophets were until John. From then on, the Kingdom of God is being declared as good news, and every sort of person is pressing forward toward it. (Acts 3:18-25) 18 But in this way God has fulfilled the things he announced beforehand through the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer. 19 “Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out, so that seasons of refreshing may come from Jehovah himself 20 and he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus. 21 Heaven must hold this one within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old. 22 In fact, Moses said: ‘Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to whatever he tells you. 23 Indeed, anyone who does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.’ 24 And all the prophets from Samuel and those who followed him, as many as have spoken, have also plainly declared these days. 25 You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your forefathers. . . (Acts 10:42, 43) 42 Also, he ordered us to preach to the people and to give a thorough witness that this is the one decreed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets bear witness, that everyone putting faith in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” (Ephesians 3:5, 6) 5 In other generations this secret was not made known to the sons of men as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by spirit, 6 namely, that people of the nations should, in union with Christ Jesus and through the good news, be joint heirs and fellow members of the body and partakers with us of the promise. (Hebrews 1:1, 2) 1 Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. Not everyone will get the same point from these verses, but it is possible to come away thinking that all the prophecies of the Hebrew Scriptures, at least, found their fulfillment in the generation that saw Jesus and saw, perhaps, the last time-related prophecy fulfilled: the one that said that Jerusalem would pay for the blood of all the prophets in that very generation. This does not mean that one has to hold to a premillennial view of Bible prophecy, but there are some points to glean from this view that can shed light on the meaning of these same prophecies for the future.

I have not yet tried to completely decipher the method and reasoning that @Israeli Bar Avaddhon used in order to reach his current conclusions about these time periods. I apologize for that, but I don't think it hurts us to try to imagine what we would have come up with on our own, if it were not for the foundation already provided by the Watch Tower publications. This is also a method that can provide us with a bit of sympathy and empathy for those we meet who have tried to understand these difficult problems for themselves. This can provide a kind of thought experiment that might even let us second-guess what the Watch Tower Society might come up with as an alternative in the event that the current view is changed. I don't claim that there is any real value in this, but it is "fun" when you get it right. I think several people here have had that experience. So, let's pretend that we either have never heard of the current Watch Tower's view or we are just wondering what a "second-best" alternative view might have been to compare how much better, for example, the current Watch Tower's view is. For these time periods, of 1290 and 1335 days, I think we have to start with the 1260 days. All three of these periods are named in the same chapter of Daniel. And only the 1,260 is also named in several other places to be mentioned at the end of this post. As a starting method, I prefer to use the following as a foundation: (2 Timothy 3:16-17) 16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work. It is implied here that we should not need to rely at all on secular historians, but that the Bible itself equips us with enough information to be fully equipped to teach and set things straight on this and any other Bible-based subject. We should note that Paul was most likely speaking of only the "Old Testament" here, as very little of the "New Testament" had been collected or even written during Paul's association with Timothy. The book of Daniel, in fact, had not been considered to be an inspired part of the canon by all Jewish leaders, either. Some still don't accept it, even if they accept all the other books of the "Old Testament." Unless it is found to contradict the remaining parts of the Bible canon, however, we can accept it as canonical. (Some portions of Daniel are considered canonical by some religions and not by others. For example, most Protestant Christians do not accept the inclusion of the following portions of (additions to) Daniel: Song of the Three Holy Children, Susanna, and Bel and the Dragon. Revelation is another book that required decades of of discussion before a consensus was reached that it could be included in the canon. It was one of the last books to be generally accepted, although 2 Peter and Jude might have also been considered questionable in some circles for just as long. So, to start, let's look at all the places that mention the 1,260 days and the equivalent references to periods of "three and one-half times" or "[one] time, [two] times, and half a time," or 3 years and six months." The 1,290 and 1,335 also refer to a very similar time period with an additional 30 days and 75 days. (3 yrs, 7 mos; 3 yrs 8.5 mos.) (Luke 4:22-30) . . .And they all began to give favorable witness about him and to be amazed at the gracious words coming out of his mouth, and they were saying: “This is a son of Joseph, is it not?” 23 At this he said to them: “No doubt you will apply this saying to me, ‘Physician, cure yourself. Do also here in your home territory the things we have heard were done in Ca·perʹna·um.’” 24 So he said: “Truly I tell you that no prophet is accepted in his home territory. 25 For instance, I tell you in truth: There were many widows in Israel in the days of E·liʹjah when heaven was shut up for three years and six months, and a great famine came on all the land. 26 Yet E·liʹjah was sent to none of those women, but only to a widow in Zarʹe·phath in the land of Siʹdon. 27 Also, there were many lepers in Israel in the time of E·liʹsha the prophet; yet not one of them was cleansed, only Naʹa·man the Syrian.” 28 Now all those hearing these things in the synagogue became filled with anger, 29 and they rose up and rushed him outside the city, and they led him to the brow of the mountain on which their city had been built, in order to throw him down headlong. 30 But he went right through their midst and continued on his way. (1 Kings 18:1, 2) 18 After some time, in the third year, Jehovah’s word came to E·liʹjah, saying: “Go, present yourself to Aʹhab, and I will send rain on the surface of the ground.” 2 So E·liʹjah went to present himself to Aʹhab, while the famine was severe in Sa·marʹi·a. (James 5:15-20) 15 And the prayer of faith will make the sick one well, and Jehovah will raise him up. Also, if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore, openly confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. A righteous man’s supplication has a powerful effect. 17 E·liʹjah was a man with feelings like ours, and yet when he prayed earnestly for it not to rain, it did not rain on the land for three years and six months. 18 Then he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain and the land produced fruit. 19 My brothers, if anyone among you is led astray from the truth and another turns him back, 20 know that whoever turns a sinner back from the error of his way will save him from death. . . (Revelation 11:1-7) . . .“Get up and measure the temple sanctuary of God and the altar and those worshipping in it. 2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months. 3 I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy for 1,260 days dressed in sackcloth.” 4 These are symbolized by the two olive trees and the two lampstands and are standing before the Lord of the earth. 5 If anyone wants to harm them, fire comes out of their mouths and consumes their enemies. If anyone should want to harm them, this is how he must be killed. 6 These have the authority to shut up the sky so that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have authority over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every sort of plague as often as they wish. 7 When they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will wage war with them and conquer them and kill them. (Revelation 13:3-10) 3 I saw that one of its heads seemed to have been fatally wounded, but its mortal wound had been healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration. 4 And they worshipped the dragon because it gave the authority to the wild beast, and they worshipped the wild beast with the words: “Who is like the wild beast, and who can do battle with it?” 5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God to blaspheme his name and his dwelling place, even those residing in heaven. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 8 And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it. From the founding of the world, not one of their names has been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered. 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones. (Revelation 12:11-17) 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.” 13 Now when the dragon saw that it had been hurled down to the earth, it persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is to be fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent spewed out water like a river from its mouth after the woman, to cause her to be drowned by the river. 16 But the earth came to the woman’s help, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river that the dragon spewed out from its mouth. 17 So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her offspring, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness concerning Jesus. (Daniel 7:22-27) . . .and the appointed time arrived for the holy ones to take possession of the kingdom. 23 “This is what he said: ‘As for the fourth beast, there is a fourth kingdom that will come to be on the earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms, and it will devour all the earth and will trample it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, ten kings will rise up out of that kingdom; and still another one will rise up after them, and he will be different from the first ones, and he will humiliate three kings. 25 He will speak words against the Most High, and he will continually harass the holy ones of the Supreme One. He will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the Court sat, and they took away his rulership, in order to annihilate him and to destroy him completely. 27 “‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. . . (Daniel 9:25-27) 25 You should know and understand that from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·siʹah the Leader, there will be 7 weeks, also 62 weeks. She will be restored and rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in times of distress. 26 “And after the 62 weeks, Mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. “And the people of a leader who is coming will destroy the city and the holy place. And its end will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. 27 “And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease. “And on the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, what was decided on will be poured out also on the one lying desolate.” (Daniel 12:5-13) . . .Then I, Daniel, looked and saw two others standing there, one on this bank of the stream and one on the other bank of the stream. 6 Then one said to the man clothed in linen, who was up above the waters of the stream: “How long will it be to the end of these marvelous things?” 7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens and swore by the One who is alive forever: “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times, and half a time. As soon as the dashing to pieces of the power of the holy people comes to an end, all these things will come to their finish.” 8 Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so I said: “O my lord, what will be the outcome of these things?” 9 Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand. 11 “And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place, there will be 1,290 days. 12 “Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days! 13 “But as for you, go on to the end. You will rest, but you will stand up for your lot at the end of the days.” These verses should be our starting point, along with the context of each of these references. It's not often noted that the reference to 1,260 days in Revelation 11:2 is a reference to the "times of the Gentiles" in Luke 21:24. It's also not often noted that the reference to the "days of their prophesying" (of the two witnesses) is 1,260 days in which they have the authority to shut up the rain in Revelation 11:6 which matches the number of days that the rain was shut up in the days of Elijah. (A time period that gets repeated in Luke and James, as if it is of some importance.)

Who is this "ex-Bethelite, that got kicked out of Bethel" you have referred to on multiple occasions now? Or perhaps this is just an example of what you call . . . .

Father Guido Sarducci once found a pope in a pizza.

We also paid for people to move out of the building and ended up with about a dozen elderly persons who could not be bought out at any price. We would not be able to use the entire building until they died. We moved them all onto a couple of floors that Bethelites couldn't move into until they died. The construction crew had a kind of pseudo-celebration when the last one died. It's a curious thing, though, that the Watch Tower's history has seen this happen several times. Russell spent his and his father's money in 1877 because 1878 was going to be the "resurrection" and change from fleshly body to spiritual body. Russell bought into Barbour's Herald and helped him distribute Barbour's "Three Worlds" / "Tabernacle Shadows" and then Russell's own "Object and Manner of the Lord's Return" in huge quantities in 1877 and 1878. Then in 1913 and 1914 almost all the finances of the Society were gone. MacMillan says the Society was completely broke by mid-1914. They had spent a tremendous amount on "Photo-Drama of Creation." There was not much need to hold anything back, as everyone involved in the Society was "going home" to heaven in 1914. Then, in 1924, just one year prior to the resurrection of the ancient worthies, Rutherford took possession of a couple of houses and a couple of expensive cars for David and Abraham to drive. (This is not your fore-fathers Oldsmobile!) Also in 1924, they completed gathering the money to build their own first factory at 117 Adams Street - 8 stories, taking up an entire block.

I figure that, even if I didn't want to, I should do my part to bring this topic back to the 1290 and 1335 days. I requote the verses from 2 Thessalonians that Nana Fofana already quoted because so many of these recent speculations appear to me to fit the same idea that Paul warns us about. It's as if these speculations are intended to quickly shake us from our reason or "alarm" us into thinking that the "day of Jehovah" might be so imminent as to be immediately upon us. And there is often a sense that we must listen because this is just as important as hearing it from the apostles themselves: if we don't pay attention then we aren't paying attention to the Bible! This makes it fit the idea of "a letter as if from us [the apostles and inspired Bible writers]." I say this, of course, while also admitting that prophetic speculation is interesting. Obviously, I do more than my share of such speculation myself. And I also believe that the day of Jehovah can come at any time now -- and will come as a surprise, as a thief in the night. I do not believe that we are still waiting for an additional specific fulfillment of the man of lawlessness, before the day of Jehovah can arrive. (2 Thess 2). As I've said before, however, my take on this is rather boring. I expect exciting times ahead, but not because we can now see any specific events that would make us know anything about the times or seasons. It's one of the reasons I see a good portion of our current chronology as "broken." In Brother Splane's latest video about the generation, he points out the advancing age of some representatives of persons in "Group 2" to show how this system cannot last much longer. Pointing out that the system appears not to be able to go on much longer seems intuitive enough for a lot of reasons. But a claim that we "know" it due to Bible chronology, is a claim of knowledge that Jehovah says clearly he has not given to us, and we therefore need nothing to be written to us about it, because it's not for us to know; it comes as a thief! Instead, our current version times it to a time prior to the deaths of those in Group 2. In other words, we are now in exactly the same state we were when we were looking for a time prior to the deaths of those in Group 1, before a Group 2 was ever hypothesized. (Acts 1:7) . . .“It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction. (1 Thessalonians 5:1, 2) . . .Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know very well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night. (Daniel 2:19-21) . . .So Daniel praised the God of heaven. 20 Daniel declared: “Let the name of God be praised for all eternity, For wisdom and mightiness are his alone. 21 He changes times and seasons,. . (Matthew 24:36) . . .“Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. I'm not saying that anyone here is trying to foretell the day and the hour, only that I see a parallel in what Paul said above, and in the common implication about identifying specific events that will reveal an end-times timeline. I do have a couple ideas for the meaning of the 1290 and 1335 days that provides a specific lesson for Christians at all times, but which already had a prior application that was specific to those time periods. It's not necessarily correct, and of course something could still come up in the future that would reveal how silly all this speculation (on my part, at least) has been.

Bethel has a long history of child labor: (Genesis 35:16) 16 Then they pulled away from Bethʹel. . . . Rachel began to give birth, and her labor was very difficult. And wickedness too: (Amos 4:4) Come to Bethʹel and commit transgression,. . .