JW Insider

On 6/30/2017 at 9:34 PM, Gnosis Pithos said:

Jesus proclamation of the end of days was not incumbent for the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE. There were no mass earthquakes, volcanos, isonomies, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera in, 70CE.
 

Response: This is a very strange claim from someone who appears to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Jesus was the one who said he was speaking about Jerusalem. And the Watchtower has even made a video showing that first-century Christians knew that it was about Jerusalem. It followed a passage about a judgment visitation upon Jerusalem at the end of Matthew 23. It's the answer to a question the disciples had about 'when these stones would actually come tumbling down and no stone be left upon another one.' They had been pointing to the literal stones of the temple buildings.

I suppose you are focusing mostly on the term "great earthquakes" in Luke's version of the Olivet Sermon. Luke's version even adds the phrase "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies." etc. So why do you think there were no great earthquakes that they might hear about? Luke also wrote Acts and he says:

(Acts 16:26) ²⁶ Suddenly a great earthquake occurred, so that the foundations of the jail were shaken.. . .

Do you really think this was the only one? What about this one?

(Matthew 28:2) ² And look! a great earthquake had taken place, for Jehovah’s angel had descended from heaven and had come and rolled away the stone, and he was sitting on it.

What about this one?

(Matthew 27:51-54) ⁵¹ And look! the curtain of the sanctuary was torn in two, from top to bottom, and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split. ⁵² And the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the holy ones who had fallen asleep were raised up ⁵³ (and people coming out from among the tombs after his being raised up entered into the holy city), and they became visible to many people. ⁵⁴ But when the army officer and those with him keeping watch over Jesus saw the earthquake and the things happening, they grew very much afraid and said: “Certainly this was God’s Son.”

Historical records corroborate with more examples . . .

• The Pompeii/Vesuvius earthquake preceding the big eruption in 79 CE was in 62 CE.

What about food shortages?

(Acts 11:27, 28) ²⁷ In those days prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. ²⁸ One of them named Agʹa·bus stood up and foretold through the spirit that a great famine was about to come on the entire inhabited earth, which, in fact, did take place in the time of Claudius.

In fact, you should probably remember some articles in the Watchtower that basically said that all the items Jesus mentioned were fulfilled in some way in the generation from 33 to 70 C.E., including even the preaching of the good news in the entire inhabited earth:

(Colossians 1:23) . . .that good news that you heard and that was preached in all creation under heaven. . . .

(1 Timothy 3:16) ¹⁶ Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, . . .

(Acts 17:6) . . .“These men who have overturned the inhabited earth are present here also. . .

(Romans 10:17, 18) . . .what is heard is through the word about Christ. ¹⁸ But I ask, They did not fail to hear, did they? Why, in fact, “into all the earth their sound went out, and to the ends of the inhabited earth their message.”

*** w88 10/1 p. 3 The Sign—Not Just Past History ***
Did that generation experience fulfillment of “the sign”? Yes. The Bible refers to “a great famine” as well as three earthquakes, two of them ‘great earthquakes.’ (Acts 11:28; 16:26; Matthew 27:51; 28:1, 2) According to secular history, other earthquakes and food shortages occurred during that period. It was also a time of wars, two of which were fought by Roman armies against the inhabitants of Jerusalem. The second siege of Jerusalem resulted in terrible famine and pestilence, leading up to the destruction of the city and its temple in the year 70 C.E. The site in Jerusalem where the temple used to be stands as mute witness to those terrible first-century events.

*** w78 8/15 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
That prophecy had a future application beyond what occurred to Jerusalem and on the Jews in 70 C.E., but it also was true as to the history of that city and nation.
These words are in Jesus’ prophetic reply to the apostles’ question about his future presence and the conclusion of the system of things. (Matt. 24:3, 21; Mark 13:19) Jehovah’s Witnesses have often pointed out that much of what Jesus there foretold had two fulfillments: First, a limited fulfillment in the developments leading up to and including the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish system of things in 70 C.E. . . . In that prophecy Jesus emphasized the need to keep alert and to be ready. He said: “Keep praying that your flight may not occur in wintertime, nor on the sabbath day; for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.”—Matt. 24:20, 21.
For Christians living in Jerusalem and Judea who would be directly affected by the end of the Jewish system of things, the warning to keep alert was vital. The Roman armies surrounded the city in 66 C.E., but then unexpectedly withdrew. That was the specific signal that Jesus had mentioned in Luke 21:20-22. And history tells us that obedient Christians responded by fleeing from the city of Jerusalem and from Judea. So it is reasonable to apply also to the literal city of Jerusalem and Judea what Jesus next said, about the “great tribulation.”
The destruction brought by the Romans in 70 C.E. was more extensive and terrible than when the Babylonians destroyed the city of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E. Also, the tribulation in 70 C.E. brought the permanent destructive end to the Jewish-built city and temple and the system of worship centered around it. So Jesus was correct in prophetically describing the events in 70 C.E. as “great tribulation such as has not occurred [on that city, nation and system of things] since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.” . . . The worldwide fulfillment in one generation of Jesus’ prophecies about unprecedented war, famine, earthquakes and so on, confirm that the limited fulfillment on Jerusalem before 70 C.E. was but a type of what we are experiencing.

Granted, we have changed emphasis on some of these verses and where they originally applied and which might apply only after 70 C.E., but much of it is just as true as when it was first written.

2 hours ago, ComfortMyPeople said:

(Luke 12:47, 48) ". . .Then that slave who understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do what he asked will be beaten with many strokes. But the one who did not understand and yet did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him."

Will these words be fulfilled? Were they a symbolic warning? 

I take this as a kind of rhetorical question. I think you have already pointed out why much of what happens on the human side of organizations is exactly what we would expect to happen. Similar issues came up in the first century congregations.

Each of us has a responsibility to question. But not everyone is in a position to take their own questions seriously, due to having already put that responsibility onto others. But that's also a natural consequence of our imperfection. So it's not ours to judge the level of understanding of anyone else. It's not ours to judge who was put in charge of much, or who thought they were put in charge of much. But in any case the principle is true. It shows up again when James says that "not all of you should become teachers." It shows up in Hebrews 13:17 "for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account." And Hebrews 5:12 shows that it's unavoidable that we will also have the need to rely on teachers. 

(Hebrews 5:12-14) 12 For although by now you should be teachers, you again need someone to teach you from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God, and you have gone back to needing milk, not solid food. 13 For everyone who continues to feed on milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a young child. 14 But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their powers of discernment trained to distinguish both right and wrong.

But none of these scriptures are specifically about the persons who publish and promote our doctrines. These scriptures are about all of us: all elders, and all others, too. All of us are expected to be stewards.

(1 Peter 4:10) 10 To the extent that each one has received a gift, use it in ministering to one another as fine stewards of God’s undeserved kindness that is expressed in various ways.

(1 Corinthians 4:2) 2 In this regard, what is expected of stewards is that they be found faithful.

So the principle is surely for all of us. Faithfulness is expected of all of us. And the greater the responsibility, the more seriously we should take it. We may push off our responsibilities onto others, but ultimately:

(Galatians 6:4-6) 4 But let each one examine his own actions, and then he will have cause for rejoicing in regard to himself alone, and not in comparison with the other person. 5 For each one will carry his own load. 6 Moreover, let anyone who is being taught the word share in all good things with the one who gives such teaching.

2 hours ago, bruceq said:

Chronology is ambiguous for a reason. Otherwise everyone would be a Witness but for the wrong reasons.

An interesting theory. But it would mean that every Witness who thinks that our Bible chronology is not ambiguous is a Witness for the wrong reasons. Therefore, according to your theory, it is vitally important that all Witnesses and potential Witnesses be made aware that the chronology is ambiguous.

So, I guess I can't tell if you are thanking me or criticizing me for doing something you believe is so important.

21 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

As for strange Bethel behaviour, I remember one of our COs who told me that the first time he heard 4-letter words regularly used was in Bethel! However, Willi Diehl's father understated the matter perfectly in 1931 when he warned his son that "the brothers there are not angels"! (WT 1 Nov 1991 p26)

It's a bit off-topic, and I don't mean to pile on here, but this experience was also true for me. I learned to really like some of the same brothers more than some of the stuffier ones. I knew that three of the members of the Governing Body had come out of a previous era were still quite prolific in Rutherford-style swearing. One brother accidentally let slip the S*** word during morning worship. (I'd say for sure it was Jackson, but this might be considered too serious if I got it wrong.) Brother Swingle rarely seemed to hold back, and even thought it was OK to use the N***** word to address brothers of a certain persuasion (never during morning worship). But he was also one of the most down to earth and honest brothers I have ever known. Fred Franz would also use off-color language for effect, to grab your attention, but none of his words were ever vulgar. Franz wore a T-shirt to present the morning worship for three days in a row that had the word "hell" on it. It said "Where in the hell is . . . ?" [with the name of some little "podunk" town, somewhere.] But he wore it only because Brother Sydlik had just announced the previous week that all Bethelites needed to start wearing suit clothes to morning worship and treat it more like a congregation meeting. Franz was clearly sending a message.

38 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Funny though, I have never really been subjected to the intensity of weirdness that some others emphasize like the "subliminal art" stuff, or "personal Bible study policing" although these things obviously go on, and I have known some casualties.

I was there during the personal Bible study policing, but I was also there in the Art department during the same time periods that some of the supposed "subliminal art" stuff was supposedly slipped through. I can say for sure that during those years this was all complete "hogwash." There was no such thing. And I knew the brothers in the Art department for the next 10 years, and all the rest of the claims were equally garbage. It's part of the mindset where people see what they want to see. Of course, stupid things happen. Perhaps a brother in one of the filmed dramas thought it would be funny to turn his necklace cross upside-down? Who knows? (More likely it was an accident.)

48 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Apart from time out to raise children, I have pioneered most of the time so this work and the responsibility of helping others to clean up their lives have been the main focus for me. The experience of observing the way applying Bible principles really changes people's lives for the better so radically has been enough to convince me of Jehovah's active involvement, and has likely minimised the effect of some of these other issues that apparently trouble so many.

I haven't pioneered for several years now, but this is the key for me, too. I know that some people have wondered what kind of cognitive dissonance would allow someone who knows about certain items of "deceit" to also go in service with our publications and even study with persons until they reach a decision about baptism. But our goal should be to focus on the more important work of applying Bible principles, and the changes that Jehovah's spirit can accomplish. It outweighs everything else.

I'm glad you are taking some time, and am sorry recent events shut down your local assembly venues. However, if I get time, I will still try to address some of the points you have made that I never responded to yet. So, don't feel that I'm fishing for a response from you, or trying to bait you into coming back. I'll wait patiently with bated breath. Enjoy the fishing.

7 minutes ago, Judy Stone Faigle said:

I live in Missouri &  I'm thinking his name was Wayne but I could be mistaken..my mind isn't as sharp as it used to be..or will be.

WOW! I think that's it. You must have gone to assemblies around St. Louis, and sometimes he conducted in Springfield (Illinois) at the racetrack? Some of the same orchestra also played at assemblies in Kansas City, where I played a couple times. I believe his congregation was fairly close to Brother Calvin Lanich, who played harmonica for a famous old group called the Harmonicats. (Several albums on Spotify.) One of the arrangements required a harmonica for a western theme, and Brother Lanich taught me how to play it because he didn't have time to travel with the orchestra.

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

But, seriously - at a congregation out in the hills, a duo playing piano and viola accompanied all songs. Such beautiful music you have never heard.

That would have been quite a thing to hear. I remember once when the record player broke and brothers insisted that I play the piano, because I played guitar in the district convention orchestra (which was mostly violins and violas, btw). They had heard me "plink" on the piano a couple times. I insisted that I didn't play but they were sure. After an embarrassing false start, I ended up just playing the chords without the melody. (We didn't have chords printed in the songbook back then, but I had them scribbled into my copy.)

1 hour ago, Judy Stone Faigle said:

What a beautiful memory, you have. I always loved the orchestra  music we had at assemblies...the brother that was the conductor went to our hall. Watching him made me love music as Jehovah does. 

I played in one of the orchestras that played for U.S. Midwest assemblies in Illinois and Missouri. The brother who conducted was really good.  He produced some excellent arrangements in a lot of different styles. That's probably the main reason I remember many of the older songs that we haven't sung in half-a-century. Wow! It's really been that long!

19 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Thanks for clarifying your position. It appears that by removing the anchoring notion of 607 BCE to 1914 CE as a 2520 year, free run for the "Gentile" nations under Satan's dominion, you are then abe to "rearrange" the significance of other components of our belief, thus, as it were, changing the perception without altering the picture. A bit like those optical illusions..........

[Referring especially to the half-dozen or so doctrinal changes related to the term "generation" through the years, along with numerous other doctrinal changes with respect to Matthew 24 & 25:]

That supposed anchor, as you called it, is just a "pretend" anchor anyway, allowing the doctrinal boat to drift along and shift and change, and get tossed about, and even require "tacking" which is a way that a boat can try to fight against the wind, and literally end up in a place that was exactly the opposite of where the "wind" was leading. (Note: Hebrew ruahh, spirit, wind)

(Ephesians 4:14) . . .So we should no longer be children, tossed about as by waves and carried here and there by every wind of teaching by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in deceptive schemes.

*** w81 12/1 p. 27 par. 2 The Path of the Righteous Does Keep Getting Brighter ***
2 However, it may have seemed to some as though that path has not always gone straight forward. At times explanations given by Jehovah’s visible organization have shown adjustments, seemingly to previous points of view. But this has not actually been the case. This might be compared to what is known in navigational circles as “tacking.” By maneuvering the sails the sailors can cause a ship to go from right to left, back and forth, but all the time making progress toward their destination in spite of contrary winds. . . . .19 Of course, such development of understanding, involving “tacking” as it were, has often served as a test of loyalty for those associated with the “faithful and discreet slave.”

The seriousness of the problem is that any reliance on chronology almost always involves deception. [even if that deception was not intentional] That's the point made in Ephesians 4:14. [In previous discussions evidence for all of the following points have been made and no one had any counter-evidence:]

• There have already been at least a dozen times that the Watchtower has made claims about dates, including 1914, that were plainly not true.
• There have been claims about what was supposedly predicted decades prior to 1914 that you yourself have seen were not true.
• A video from the convention implies that the reason for the problem about 1975 started in the local congregations. This same implication has been made many times before.
• It has almost always been implied that most of what was expected for certain dates, even dates back into the 1800's were mostly correct, even though they were totally false.
• There has sometimes been a claim that minimizes the error, saying things like: they were expecting the right thing but at the wrong time; or
• That a particular false teaching was actually better than the true Biblical teaching, because it produced a necessary test of God's people, or
• That the wrong understanding helped bolster them for a time when they needed to stand up more strongly against enemies.

The Watchtower has even gone so far as to print completely unsubstantiated, and flatly wrong, "scholarship" which has obviously deceived people into thinking there was some truth behind it. [Furuli's books, Appendix to the "Kingdom Come" book in 1981, etc.] This has been done by selective quoting, or by using the work of scholars who have been deceitful with evidence. The publications have produced statements about what we can know and what we cannot know about chronology through archaeology and history that have also proved to be deceptive.

I'm not claiming that the motive was dishonesty. People can easily be blinded by what they want to see. But the end result on the readers and audiences is still "deception."

A good example is the way in which C.T.Russell used measurements of the Great Pyramid. (It's an old enough example that it won't invoke biases for or against the current Governing Body, who are doing the exact same type of thing today.) His famous books, "Millennial Dawn" (Studies in the Scriptures) sold by the millions of copies worldwide. His most infamous doctrine was the proof that the Great Pyramid was "Jehovah's witness" in stone. It foretold the dates predicted in the Bible. Here is what he started saying in 1890, in Volume 3, along with an approving letter from an Egyptologist, and other information showing how some of the measurements in the Pyramid were accurate to within a fraction of an inch. (Where each "inch" represented a year, of course.)

"So, then, if we measure backward down the "First Ascending Passage" to its junction with the "Entrance Passage," we shall have a fixed date to mark upon the downward passage. This measure is 1542 inches, and indicates the year BC 1542, as the date at that point. Then measuring down the "Entrance Passage" from that point, to find the distance to the entrance of the "Pit," representing the great trouble and destruction with which this age is to close, when evil will be overthrown from power, we find it to be 3416 inches, symbolizing 3416 years from the above date, BC 1542. This calculation shows AD. 1874 as marking the beginning of the period of trouble; for 1542 years BC plus 1874 years AD. equals 3416 years. Thus the Pyramid witnesses that the close of 1874 was the chronological beginning of the time of trouble such as was not since there was a nation -- no, nor ever shall be afterward. And thus it will be noted that this "Witness" fully corroborates the Bible testimony on this subject...   [all editions of Volume 3, prior to 1910]

Then he made a correction in 1910 when other Bible Students were getting very much involved in corroborating these numbers:

"So, then, if we measure backward down the "First Ascending Passage" to its junction with the "Entrance Passage," we shall have a fixed date to mark upon the downward passage. This measure is 1542 inches, and indicates the year BC 1542, as the date at that point. Then measuring down the "Entrance Passage" from that point, to find the distance to the entrance of the "Pit," representing the great trouble and destruction with which this age is to close, when evil will be overthrown from power, we find it to be 3457 inches, symbolizing 3457 years from the above date, BC 1542. This calculation shows AD. 1915 as marking the beginning of the period of trouble; for 1542 years BC plus 1915 years AD. equals 3457 years. Thus the Pyramid witnesses that the close of 1914 will be the beginning of the time of trouble such as was not since there was a nation -- no, nor ever shall be afterward. And thus it will be noted that this "Witness" fully corroborates the' Bible testimony on this subject..."

It doesn't matter if Russell was personally trying to be deceitful. He made this change without an explanation and the exact same data that once pointed to 1874 now pointed to 1915. (For a time 1915 was considered the Jewish "year" beginning in October 1914 through September 1915. But this was not consistent. As they got closer to the 1914 date, and stopped believing that all they had predicted was possible, there were statements that effectively would have meant that 1915 could even start in October 1915 and therefore run into 1916. It was the Great European War starting in mid-1914, that brought most of this diffusion back into a focus on 1914. Since then, the false claims made about Russell's predictions in a newspaper called "The World" have been quoted in Watch Tower publications about as often as any specific predictions made in our own publications.)

Russell used pseudo-archaeology to bolster his belief in the period from 1874 to 1914. The Watchtower has since used pseudo-archaeology to bolster the belief in the period from 1914 to the Great Tribulation.

The green-and-yellow was still being used up until the year before I got baptized. This meant that each hall still had a piano and a couple of sisters who could play the songs, because there was no record set for the green-and-yellow. Some of the old pre-1966 songs still stick in my head like:

• Rejoice! The Kingdom Has Begun,
• Dedication,
• Hosannas for David's Son,
• Ministers for the Issue,
• Christ is Here!,
• Tell It Out!, etc.
• The older, more, complex version of "Forward! You Witnesses!"

Also, there were completely different words for some of the songs we sang, like: "The Sword of Jehovah and of Gideon" (71) which was much more fun to sing in the old rhyme.

• There's a call going out through the length of the land / To serve in the army of Gideon;
• For our captain has issued the final command / To vanquish the cohorts of Midian.

In the pink songbook (Preach This Good News of the Kingdom!, 103), this changed to:

• This good news of the Kingdom must now be proclaimed / In witness to each land and nation;
• And Jehovah's good name must become widely famed / Before his complete vindication.

Also we were allowed to harmonize, like in a choir, on several songs: To the Work! 79 Send out Your Light! 65, Take Sides With Jehovah! 57 (also in pink, etc), 23, 53, etc.

The most forgettable song in the pre-1966 was "The Taunt-Song Against Satan." (75) What a title!

35 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Cuttting through all the information and comments,  it appears that in response to my question 1(essentially) When did the war  between Michael and Satan take place? ,  you present the view that, rather than a chronologically defined event, this war takes place during the life of the individual Christian. First, for Jesus, and his successful mission completion signified the Devil's defeat in his case. Then, for the individual Christian, from when they renounce Satan's influence, successfully endure, and untl they complete a faithful life course.

Jesus appearance on the earthly scene was the first step in the battle that brought Satan down from his lofty position. I don't know if it started at Jesus' birth, and therefore included the wrath of Herod, or if it was at Jesus baptism after which Satan made his offer of kingship over the kings of the earth to Jesus. But the great anger showed itself through persecutions and difficulties at a time when Christianity was "newborn" -- it's most vulnerable time, when it was vastly outnumbered, even by a religion already identified as the true religion, Judaism. So I think that the image of Revelation 12 mostly refers to Satan trying to keep Christianity from "getting off the ground" especially working through Judaism, which continues to be the damaging force against Christianity even into the time of Revelation (which was written evidently AFTER Jerusalem's temple was destroyed). Notice the references to Judaism and Judaizers in the 7 letters to the congregations.

Also Jesus gave a good hint of the same during his ministry:

(Matthew 12:24-30) . . .” 24 At hearing this, the Pharisees said: “This fellow does not expel the demons except by means of Be·elʹze·bub, the ruler of the demons.” 25 Knowing their thoughts, he said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself comes to ruin, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 In the same way, if Satan expels Satan, he has become divided against himself; how, then, will his kingdom stand? 27 Moreover, if I expel the demons by means of Be·elʹze·bub, by whom do your sons expel them? This is why they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons, the Kingdom of God has really overtaken you. 29 Or how can anyone invade the house of a strong man and seize his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Only then can he plunder his house. 30 Whoever is not on my side is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

I do not think the same battle happens again in the life of each Christian. 

The "short time" explanation sounded right.

On 6/30/2017 at 7:02 AM, ComfortMyPeople said:

And, at the same time, why could not be possible to expect a new crowning ceremony in the future, in the Revelation time?

I find it possible, unlike JWInsider opinion, because I think he (JWI) has mentioned the riding of the horsemen of Revelation 6 starts with the resurrection of Christ in 33, and the wars, pests and famine are the habitual conditions from then. But this is hard to me to believe. Why?

Because the “second” coronation (Rev.6) is marked with victories, conquers (Rev.6:2). But what happened from the end of first century until recent times? The apostasy, the dark ages… the contrary to victory.

I’ve already presented my view, error prone obviously, that the colored horses could mean victories of the King against enemies, not society conditions.

There is an excellent (and famous) precedent for this idea in the Bible (future "crowing" ceremony, whether or not Jesus is already, technically, king). When a milestone event occurred, such as the moving of the "Ark of the covenant" into Jerusalem, David wrote a psalm that said "Jehovah has become King." Obviously Jehovah was already King. This may also be related to the explanation for why Jesus both hands back the Kingdom to his God and Father, and yet reigns forever in that everlasting Kingdom in fulfillment of the covenant to David.

What I was thinking about with Revelation 6 and the representative horses is that as soon as Jesus began reigning in the midst of his enemies, he also began conquering in the midst of his enemies. He was not passively waiting until some late 19th century or early 20th century world event, but rides through the entire history of Christianity and continues to conquer right up until the last enemies Death & Hades (Grave) are themselves thrown into total destruction (Lake of Fire). Riding alongside the other horses is, to me, a way of saying that, in spite of the long reign of death through various means, Jesus is also conquering for us. We may die, or be killed, even starve, yet can be comforted that we also conquer through Christ Jesus.

I still believe, as you do, that the more joyous fulfillment is future. But I also see a fulfillment now that acknowledges what Paul said in 1 Cor 15, that Jesus is NOW both ruling and conquering. 

Also, although we can look at world history and see dark ages, destruction, apostasy, false doctrine, etc., we may be looking at the situation the way Elijah looked at the situation in Israel, thinking he was the only one who was still faithful, yet he needed to be corrected:

(Romans 11:1-6) 11 I ask, then, God did not reject his people, did he? By no means! For I too am an Israelite, of the offspring of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he first recognized. Do you not know what the scripture says in connection with E·liʹjah, as he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Jehovah, they have killed your prophets, they have dug up your altars, and I alone am left, and now they are trying to take my life.” 4 Yet, what does the divine pronouncement say to him? “I have left for myself 7,000 men who have not bent the knee to Baʹal.” 5 So in the same way, at the present time also, there is a remnant according to a choosing through undeserved kindness.

3 hours ago, ComfortMyPeople said:

1914. It’s a date. The Christians didn’t utilize dates as a foundation of their faith

*** w14 2/15 p. 27 Questions From Readers ***

Could the first-century Jews have calculated the time of the Messiah’s arrival on the basis of the prophecy of the 70 weeks recorded at Daniel 9:24-27? While that possibility cannot be ruled out, it cannot be confirmed. The fact is that there were many conflicting interpretations of the 70 weeks in Jesus’ day, and none come close to our present understanding.

In reality, we all know no Jesus nor Paul in writing to the Hebrews made use of the dates in the 70 weeks prophecy to proof that Jesus was the Messiah. Why should we different regarding 1914?

I enjoyed your exposition of the all these issues related to 1914, Revelation, and the kingship of Jesus, especially the areas that differed from the view I have been holding. I'll get to those issues shortly, but I wanted to say how important is this particular point you just made. It may also provide a starting place to help explain why the view I hold is a bit confusing.

First, it shows that Christians in the first century had NOT come to our present understanding of the 70 weeks. This would seem, at first, to contradict the verses just previously quoted:

(1 Peter 1:10-12) 10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the undeserved kindness meant for you made a diligent inquiry and a careful search. 11 They kept on investigating what particular time or what season the spirit within them was indicating concerning Christ as it testified beforehand about the sufferings meant for Christ and about the glory that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were ministering, not to themselves, but to you, regarding what has now been announced to you by those who declared the good news to you with holy spirit sent from heaven. Into these very things, angels are desiring to peer.

The idea I get from this is that many were "making a diligent inquiry" and realized that when it came to chronology ("the particular time or season") there was no way they would have figured it out. Not even an angel could have figured it out. And THAT must even include the time when the Messiah would suffer. And yet the 70 years prophecy of Jeremiah, as expanded by Daniel into 70 "sevens of" years was the most famous of the time prophecies about when the Messiah should suffer.

(Daniel 9:25, 26) 25 You should know and understand that from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·siʹah the Leader, there will be 7 weeks, also 62 weeks. She will be restored and rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in times of distress. 26 “And after the 62 weeks, Mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself.. . .

As an aside, it would have been just as accurate to translate this as "Messiah the Ruler" rather than "Messiah the Leader." The NLT says: "Now listen and understand! Seven sets of seven plus sixty-two sets of seven will pass from the time the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem until a ruler—the Anointed One —comes. Jerusalem will be rebuilt with streets and strong defenses, despite the perilous times." or NIV: "“Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.

But back to the point. I think that after Jesus was manifested in the world at the last days, that Christians are now in a time period when time and dates are meaningless. As 1 Peter says, it was nothing that anyone could really figure out ahead of time, not even angels. All they could do was wait. Jesus arrival marked the "Last Days" according to Hebrews 1:1,2:

1 Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days [Now, in these last days] he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.

From that point in time, we are all in the same situation until:

(Hebrews 1:6-2:1) But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.” . . . 8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. 9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation . . .  13 But about which of the angels has he ever said: “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet”? . . .2 That is why it is necessary for us to pay more than the usual attention to the things we have heard, so that we never drift away.

I don't think I need to repeat that Hebrews 1 uses royal imagery both here and in verses I skipped. It mentions ministers doing obeisance to him just as a king has. It mentions a throne. It mentions a scepter, it mentions a Kingdom, it mentions being anointed with oil, it mentions sitting on a throne while God places all enemies at his feet. The context also mentions garments, and mentions a crown. These are all "kingly" and "royal" concepts that should make us pay attention and never drift away.

So it doesn't matter that there may be more to his ongoing kingship, and more occasions where one could say "Jehovah has become King" or "Jesus has become King." The point is that time and chronology are no longer important to the equation. If they do become important then we are probably missing something in our Christianity and faith. We know he came, we know he will come again. We also know that he is present with us all the days until the end of the system. (Matthew 28:20) Jesus mentioned that presence starting back in 33 and said it would continue until the synteleia. (Technically, if the Watchtower were correct about the synteleia, or conclusion, then Jesus presence would STOP in 1914. Fortunately, the conclusion of the system of things is a future event, not something that started in 1914.)

Another way to look at the same point is to notice how Jesus transitioned from the sign seen upon Jerusalem to the imagery of the "second coming." Jesus says "immediately after the tribulation of those days . . . they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

That's a bit hard to square with our current view of time. It's a better fit for what Peter and Psalms says about 1,000 years being the same as a day with Jehovah.

But this is also why I see Revelation speaking of things that were to be considered "as good as if they had been completely fulfilled" during the time they were first read by Christians. All the things happening to them, both good and bad, were evidences that the end of all things was already upon them (1 Pet 4:7). That NOW was the day of salvation. At any moment "immediately" Christ could be seen coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Only if they believed strongly that he was currently the king, with all the authority and power, above all other kings and authorities in heaven and on earth, could that faith be strong enough to carry them through great tribulations and even unto death.

So, the reason I make application to the first century, even of items in Revelation chapters 6 through 12, especially, is because physical, human times and dates were not important. The power of Jehovah and his Christ were powers that moved beyond time. They each could be referred to with names like: the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega, the One who was, who is, and who is coming.

From a more technical point of view, I would say that it's much easier to explain several of these parts of Revelation as occurring closer to the final manifestation of Jesus. I agree that all these events in the first century continue on to a greater fulfillment when the Kingdom accomplishes the purpose of His will.

(1 Corinthians 15:24-28) 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

Another aside that some might find interesting is that we have often said that Jesus must sit and wait at God's right hand until God has made his enemies a stool for his feet, based on:

(Hebrews 10:12, 13) . . .But this man offered one sacrifice for sins for all time and sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from then on waiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet.

This would be another damaging element to the 1914 doctrine, because Jesus would have to continue waiting until the last enemy death is brought to nothing according to 1 Cor 15:26. Therefore Jesus is still patiently waiting at God's right hand, and nearly the entire basis for explaining why Jesus didn't become king until 1914 comes crumbling.

44 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

But when did men start to rove about? Thought it was after the Reformation? What about all he study groups in the 1800s?

I think the emphasis lately has been on starting this expression after 1914 especially, not so much before 1914:

*** w00 5/15 p. 11 par. 6 Pay Attention to God’s Prophetic Word for Our Day ***
6 In this time of the end, many faithful Christians have ‘roved about’ in the pages of God’s Word, the Bible. The result? With Jehovah’s blessing on their efforts, true knowledge has become abundant. For instance, anointed Witnesses of Jehovah have been blessed with insight, enabling them to understand that Jesus Christ became heavenly King in the year 1914. In keeping with the apostle’s words recorded at 2 Peter 1:19-21, such anointed ones and their loyal companions are ‘paying attention to the prophetic word’ and are absolutely certain that this is the time of the end.

• *** bhs chap. 9 p. 99 par. 13 Is the End of the World Near? *** [2015]
• 13 Understanding the Bible. The prophet Daniel wrote about the last days. He said: “The true knowledge will become abundant.” (Daniel 12:4) God would give his people the ability to understand the Bible more clearly than ever before. Jehovah has done this especially since 1914. For example, he has taught us the importance of his name and his purpose for the earth as well as the truth about the ransom, what happens when we die, and the resurrection. We have learned that only God’s Kingdom can solve all our problems. We have also learned how to be happy and how to live in a way that pleases God. But what do God’s servants do with what they’ve learned? Another prophecy gives us the answer.—See Endnotes 21 and 25.

In 2009, 2012 and 2014 we temporarily moved it back to include Russell's group in 1870.

But I also think that we have a Scriptural answer that fits:

• (1 Peter 1:10-12) 10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the undeserved kindness meant for you made a diligent inquiry and a careful search. 11 They kept on investigating what particular time or what season the spirit within them was indicating concerning Christ as it testified beforehand about the sufferings meant for Christ and about the glory that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were ministering, not to themselves, but to you, regarding what has now been announced to you by those who declared the good news to you with holy spirit sent from heaven. Into these very things, angels are desiring to peer.

Note that the NWT indicates that the literal words are more likely used in a metaphorical manner here, so that the NWT footnote in Daniel 12:4 says:

• Or “examine it [that is, the book] thoroughly.”

So 1 Peter is likely a more exact "fulfillment" of Daniel 12:4 than it might look like, at first.

• *** w12 8/15 p. 3 par. 2 “I Am With You” ***
• Viewed metaphorically and in harmony with the facts of our day, the Hebrew verb here translated “rove about” conveys the idea of a careful examination.

38 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

The time for Shiloh (the one who has the legal right to David's throne,Jesus Christ) to  resume rule of God's Kingdom  towards the earth would be AFTER the Gentiles Times would have ended

Actually, Jesus is to rule in the midst of his enemies, so there is no Biblical reason that the times of the Gentile nations could not go on while Jesus is king. At any rate, the time of the Gentile nations continue to go on anyway in spite of the fact that Jesus is said to rule from 1914.

40 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

God's rulership towards the earth was interrupted when the last King, Zedekiah, was dethroned and taken to Babylon.

From a Biblical viewpoint, God's rulership toward the earth has never been interrupted. Jehovah is the one who can interrupt the rule of others at his will. That was the entire point that Nebuchadnezzar needed to learn in Daniel chapter 4.  So it seems all the more disrespectful to say that Nebuchadnezzar interrupted God's rulership by dethroning Zedekiah.

18 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

*** w14 10/1 p. 13 " When Did God’s Kingdom Begin Ruling?—Part 1 ***
In his prophecy concerning the last days, Jesus said: “Jerusalem [which represented God’s rulership] will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:24) So the interruption of God’s rulership was still in effect in Jesus’ time and would continue until the last days."

The reason this doesn't make sense to all readers of Luke 21:24 is that Jesus clearly says Jerusalem WILL BE TRAMPLED on. Therefore it was future, and not even in effect yet during Jesus' time on earth. Also Luke 21:24 is referenced in Revelation 11:2,3 and it says nothing there about 7 times, only 3.5 times.

22 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

"(Daniel 12:9) Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end."

This goes to the same question that Anna just asked about the "last days." Daniel's words were sealed up until the time of the end. Revelation quotes quite a bit from Daniel, but says it's now time that the words of the scroll are opened. As you have shown before, much of Revelation is parallel to Daniel, but this is a consistent exception: It is now time to open and unseal the sealed scrolls.

(Revelation 5:1-5) . . .And I saw in the right hand of the One seated on the throne a scroll written on both sides, sealed tight with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice: “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?” 3 But no one in heaven or on earth or underneath the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it. 4 I gave way to a great deal of weeping because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it. 5 But one of the elders said to me: “Stop weeping. Look! The Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has conquered so as to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

37 minutes ago, Anna said:

Could it be said that the last days started in 33 C.E?

Yes. Easily. Note these instances of the expression in the NWT:

(Acts 2:14-17) 14 But Peter stood up with the Eleven and spoke to them in a loud voice: “Men of Ju·deʹa and all you inhabitants of Jerusalem, let this be known to you and listen carefully to my words. 15 These people are, in fact, not drunk, as you suppose, for it is the third hour of the day. 16 On the contrary, this is what was said through the prophet Joel: 17 ‘“And in the last days,” God says, “I will pour out some of my spirit on every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams,

Now that 33 had arrived, this expression is first used there in Acts. Then Paul tells Timothy that the reason he is seeing such problems in the congregation is because they are in the "last days."

(2 Timothy 3:1-14) . . .But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3 having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, . . . 7 always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth. 8 Now in the way that Janʹnes and Jamʹbres opposed Moses, so these also go on opposing the truth. Such men are completely corrupted in mind, disapproved as regards the faith. 9 Nevertheless, they will make no further progress, for their folly will be very plain to all, as it was with those two men. 10 But you have closely followed my teaching, my course of life, my purpose, my faith, my patience, my love, my endurance, . . .13 But wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled. 14 You, however, continue in the things that you learned and were persuaded to believe, . . .

Also, Peter explains why people in that time period are ridiculing the delay of the parousia:

(2 Peter 3:3-8) 3 First of all know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.” 5 For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water. 7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people. 8 However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.

Jude says the same thing using the term "last times" to explain why people are ridiculing during the time Jude is writing. The idea, in fact, covers both the points made in 2 Peter and the point of 2 Timothy:

(Jude 17-21) 17 As for you, beloved ones, call to mind the sayings that have been previously spoken by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, 18 how they used to say to you: “In the last time there will be ridiculers, following their own desires for ungodly things.” 19 These are the ones who cause divisions, animalistic men, not having spirituality. 20 But you, beloved ones, build yourselves up on your most holy faith, and pray with holy spirit, 21 in order to keep yourselves in God’s love, while you await the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ with everlasting life in view.

The expression "last days" is also used here, in Hebrews, but the NWT chose in this place not to translate it the same way:

(Hebrews 1:1, 2) 1 Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.

The NIV is more accurate here:

• In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, ² but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

In the previous post I mentioned the big rush that Russell got behind to finance Barbour's "Three Worlds." It might be confusing to some that they thought the end of the time of trouble would occur in 1914. (Later, in 1904 this was changed to the start of a time of trouble, lasting until about 1915, or the end of 1915.)

If they thought that the end would be in 1914, how could they think of the rapture in 1878? It's because they thought that there was a higher heavenly calling in 1878 for people like Russell and Barbour and other "wise virgins" who recognized that Barbour was the one whom Jesus had used to call out the "midnight cry" beginning right around 1859 -- halfway between Miller's 1844 and the "dawn" or the "morning" in 1874. Russell later recognized that the word for "midnight" in Greek was not an exact time but a range of time, and pretty much removed Barbour from the equation as God's mouthpiece.

Those of the higher calling would go to heaven, called to the marriage of the Lamb for the 144,000, while other Christians would stay on earth for as long as they lived, at least up to 1914, and be changed when they died. This is how the "great crowd" would get to heaven. After all the Christians were in heaven, the millennium activity would be mostly about Christians working from heaven to transform the non-Christians who would inherit the earth.

Another interesting piece of information is that the chart that folds out at the beginning of "Three Worlds" uses 606 BCE, when Nebuchadnezzar received universal domination. This is actually much closer to the Bible's timetable, because it does not depend on when Babylon finally destroyed Jerusalem, 20 years into that domination, after several deportations of Jews. Note the image which can also be found here:

https://archive.org/stream/N.H.BarbourThreeWorldsAndHarvestOfThisWorld.ABriefReviewOfThe/Barbour_threeWorlds_harvestOfThisWorld_1877#page/n3/mode/2up

33 minutes ago, Anna said:

So I wonder, could we say Jesus became an uncrowned king in 33 CE and a crowned king in 1914? The definition of “uncrowned”  being :“having royal rank or power without occupying the royal office”. Wouldn't this be scripturally compatible?

You could say it, but why? What's the reason we don't want to say Jesus was ruling as king in 33? We don't think he was occupying the royal office? Then why does Paul call him "King of Kings"? A crown is just another way of describing that he is king. One can also say he is ruling at God's right hand. There may be no such thing as a physical crown in heaven, or probably even our human concepts of "left" and "right." The Bible doesn't make a distinction about a crowned and an uncrowned king, so why should we?

Also, when the Watch Tower publications first spoke about Jesus not having the royal office until 1878 (which later become 1914) it was because he had not shown his power in any physical way yet. But now, since he had been physically present since 1874 he was going to make a physical mark on the world by removing humans in 1878 and taking them to heaven, a "harvest" if you will. Russell was sure enough of this to sell his belongings so as to distribute as many of Barbour's pamphlets as possible in time for the 1878 "rapture." ("Three Worlds, Harvest of This World"). The same idea became true of 1881, then 1910, then 1914, then 1918, then 1920, then 1925. Jesus was about to prove that he was MORE than just a king of his congregation.

Now, of course, nothing happened with any of these expectations except disappointment. The Watchtower's later claim in 1914 that the "world had ended" (but only those with spiritual discernment could see it) was based on all those prior expectations that nearly all earthly institutions would physically collapse within months of 1914. But the nations were not smashed with an iron rod. No major institutions collapsed. If anything many of them became more powerful than they were prior to 1914. It's as if all the talk about an invisible kingship became the new replacement for the expectations of a visible parousia in 1874 that Barbour had spoken about. It was only after the failure that Barbour and some of his contributors scrambled to make it an invisible parousia. Similarly, it was only after the failure of all the expectations of 1914 that Russell and some of his contributors made it an invisible end of the nations. Prior to that it was a physical end of the nations. (End of the times of the Gentile nations.)

To me, it's a little bit like we are participating in a cover-up.

5 hours ago, Anna said:

Pardon if I am misunderstanding, but when Jesus rode into Jerusalem etc. was he not an uncrowned king? A sovereign prince who had not yet received the crown? And if he had received the crown, which scriptures tell us this?

There is probably a better way to answer this question. Jesus is called "King" about 500 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Each time Jesus was referred to as "Christ, he was being called "The Messiah." The Messiah was a King. This is why Psalm 110:1 was so important to Christians, because the question to ask was, why would a King [David] call this person "Lord." It was because that particular "Lord" was to be seated on a throne at God's right hand. If David was a king then surely this particular "Lord" would be an even higher king.

What did Messiah (Christ) mean to the early Christians? We know by looking at the Bible verses that were considered Messianic:

(Isaiah 9:6, 7) . . .For a child has been born to us, A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.  7 To the increase of his rulership And to peace, there will be no end, On the throne of David and on his kingdom In order to establish it firmly and to sustain it Through justice and righteousness, From now on and forever. The zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this.

This is exactly what Peter is saying when he refers to the relationship between David and Jesus Christ at Pentecost.

(Acts 2:29-36) 29 “Men, brothers, it is permissible to speak with freeness of speech to you about the family head David, that he died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath that he would seat one of his offspring on his throne, 31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in the Grave nor did his flesh see corruption. 32 God resurrected this Jesus, and of this we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore, because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’ 36 Therefore, let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you executed on a stake.”

Note that when David in the role of prophet said that his Lord would be seated at God's right hand until all enemies were defeated, he was referring to the resurrection of Christ to David's throne. The logic of this passage should not escape anyone. It says that when David spoke of "the lord of a king" being seated on David's throne, he was prophesying about the resurrection of the Messiah. Therefore, let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God has made Jesus this Lord and Messiah. Messiah is the final Davidic King, and he has now been made that King. The word King is already bound up in the word "Messiah."

This was probably more obvious to the original Jewish Christians as the Bible writers of the gospels indicate:

• (Matthew 2:2-6) . . . saying: “Where is the one born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when we were in the East, and we have come to do obeisance to him.” 3 At hearing this, King Herod was agitated, and all Jerusalem with him. 4 On gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born. 5 They said to him: “In Bethʹle·hem of Ju·deʹa, . . .  for out of you will come a governing one, who will shepherd my people Israel.’”
• (Mark 15:32) 32 Let the Christ, the King of Israel, now come down off the torture stake, so that we may see and believe.” . . .
• (Luke 1:31-33) . . .. 32 This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father, 33 and he will rule as King over the house of Jacob forever, and there will be no end to his Kingdom.”
• (Luke 1:67-71) . . .: 68 “Let Jehovah be praised, the God of Israel, because he has turned his attention to his people and has brought them deliverance. 69 And he has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of David his servant, 70 just as he has spoken through the mouth of his holy prophets from of old, 71 of a salvation from our enemies and from the hand of all those hating us;
• (Luke 2:11) 11 For today there was born to you in David’s city a savior, who is Christ the Lord.
• (Luke 19:36-38) 36 As he moved along, they were spreading their outer garments on the road. 37 As soon as he got near the road down the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and to praise God with a loud voice because of all the powerful works they had seen, 38 saying: “Blessed is the one coming as the King in Jehovah’s name!. . .
• (Luke 23:35) . . .“Others he saved; let him save himself if he is the Christ of God, the Chosen One.. . .
• (John 1:41-49) 41 He first found his own brother Simon and said to him: “We have found the Mes·siʹah” (which means, when translated, “Christ”), . . . 45 Philip found Na·thanʹa·el and said to him: “We have found the one of whom Moses, in the Law, and the Prophets wrote: Jesus, the son of Joseph, from Nazʹa·reth.” . . . 49 Na·thanʹa·el responded: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.”
• (John 19:21, 22) . . .However, the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate: “Do not write, ‘The King of the Jews,’ but that he said, ‘I am King of the Jews.’” 22 Pilate answered: “What I have written, I have written.”
• (Acts 13:16-47) 16 So Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand, he said: “Men, Israelites and you others who fear God, listen. 17 The God of this people Israel chose our forefathers, . . . 21 But afterward they demanded a king, and God gave them Saul . . . After removing him, he raised up for them David as king, . . . 23 According to his promise, from the offspring of this man, God has brought to Israel a savior, Jesus. . . . 27 For the inhabitants of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize this one, but . . .  they demanded of Pilate to have him executed. . . . 30 But God raised him up from the dead, . . .  32 “So we are declaring to you the good news about the promise made to the forefathers. 33 God has completely fulfilled it to us, their children, by resurrecting Jesus; just as it is written in the second psalm: ‘You are my son; today I have become your father.’

And although it should not have been necessary, because it is already implied, notice the fuller context of what was written in the second psalm:

• (Psalm 2:6, 7)  6 Saying: “I myself have installed my king On Zion, my holy mountain.”  7 Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah; He said to me: “You are my son; Today I have become your father.

(In fact it was an expression about kingship, also used of David and Solomon.)

The point is that the Bible does not make a big difference about whether we technically call Jesus only a "crown-prince" while he is "king-designate." Those details are not important even if technically true. In effect, he was "born" King of the Jews. He could be declared King by anyone who recognized him as King, even if this was before the complete fulfillment. It was for that purpose that he came into the world. Because Jehovah's purpose is as good as accomplished from the founding of the world, it doesn't matter that Jesus is called King prior to his being raised up and put at the right hand of the throne of Majesty. Technically he was not the Messiah either until his anointing in 29 C.E. yet Simeon says this:

(Luke 2:25, 26) . . .a man in Jerusalem named Simʹe·on, and this man was righteous and devout, waiting for Israel’s consolation, and holy spirit was upon him. 26 Furthermore, it had been divinely revealed to him by the holy spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Christ of Jehovah.

The connection between the word Messiah (Christ) and a King was also quite strong in the Jewish literature that was written between the last book of the Hebrew Scriptures and the Greek Scriptures. I won't quote them here, but it adds to the background of the word as understood by the writers and readers of the Greek Scriptures.

1 hour ago, Gnosis Pithos said:

And that’s why there is a BIG difference when one speculates between Jesus as King in 33ce, think literally as the people wanted, spiritual kingdom, as a work in progress, 1914 enthronement as a literal spiritual king in a heavenly (spiritual) kingdom

For 33 CE we don't have to speculate. For 1914 we do have to speculate.

The way you have explained it would mean that Jesus was not a literal king to Paul, but only a spiritual king, a work in progress. Yet, you say he was a literal king to Charles T Russell, and Joseph F Rutherford. Yet, every explanation in the Watchtower publications you quoted shows that Jesus' primary activity since 1914 has been the building up of a congregation since about 1919. But isn't that what Jesus was doing in 33 CE? The same Watchtower admits that Jesus began ruling as king over the congregation in 33 CE. Of course, everyone should agree that he was ruler over the congregation, too, but that doesn't account for why Paul would also say he had just been given a position of power and authority over every king on the earth, and even every power and authority in heaven.

You will also notice that no one will even touch the fact that Jesus is called King of Kings by Paul in Timothy.

This is the real problem with all this speculation that Jesus didn't become king until 1914. It requires that we ignore clear scriptures.

Just to give an example of what I mean, watch what will happen if I ask the following questions:

• Why did Paul call Jesus "the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords" in 1 Timothy 6:15?
• Why did John call Jesus “the Ruler of the kings of the earth” in Revelation 1:5?
• Why did Luke not make a correction about a supposed false allegation when Jews had Christians dragged in front of rulers to say: "All these men act in opposition to the decrees of Caesar, saying there is another king, Jesus." in Acts 17:7?

44 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

On 6/28/2017 at 7:22 AM, JW Insider said:

Clearly, at the latest, it was the year when Jesus died and was resurrected.

I have a couple of questions related to this if you don't mind.

1. Are you saying that the war between Michael and Satan and the casting out of Satan and his angels preceded the event referred to at Rev.12:10,  and by this reckoning took place earlier than "the year when Jesus died and was resurrected"?

2. What do you think  "the short period of time" mentioned at Rev 12:12 refers to?

For the answer to #1, just compare the scripture with all other scriptures that touch on this same subject:

(Revelation 12:7-12) 7 And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”

Satan is cast out in verse 9 and "now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom" is said to have happened in verse 10. So that would be the natural order if they are separated by time. But if there is set of events that covers both at once, then that is quite possible, too. In that case we don't have to worry too much about the time. (And we wouldn't have to defend the idea that the Watchtower appears to get it backwards, here, saying that Jesus is crowned as king, and then the first order of business is to battle with Satan.)

I think a good answer is found here:

(John 12:29-33) . . .” 30 Jesus answered: “This voice has occurred, not for my sake, but for your sakes. 31 Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And yet I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all sorts of men to myself.” 33 This he was really saying to indicate what sort of death he was about to die.

Jesus' rise is Satan's fall, here. The ruler of the world, the Devil, was battled and finally conquered and defeated through the ministry and death of Jesus, who was "made to be sin for us" and who opened the way for sons of light to overpower the darkness. And Satan's anger is evident by the fact that we must endure difficulties as Christian ministers, and we must conquer.

(John 12:35, 36) . . .“The light will be among you a little while longer. Walk while you still have the light, so that darkness does not overpower you; whoever walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. 36 While you have the light, exercise faith in the light, so that you may become sons of light.”. . .

(2 Corinthians 5:21-7:1) 21 The one who did not know sin, he made to be sin for us, so that by means of him we might become God’s righteousness. . . . 2 For he says: “In an acceptable time I heard you, and in a day of salvation I helped you.” Look! Now is the especially acceptable time. Look! Now is the day of salvation. . . .4 but in every way we recommend ourselves as God’s ministers, by the endurance of much, by tribulations, by times of need, by difficulties, 5 by beatings, by imprisonments, by riots, by hard work, by sleepless nights, by times without food; . . . as dying and yet look! we live, as punished and yet not handed over to death, . . . For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? . . . 7 Therefore, since we have these promises, beloved ones, let us cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

The idea of Satan being cast out of heaven is an expression meaning he is cast down, loses his power over those he wishes to ensnare. And this is why Revelation relates it to the announcement of salvation. It's the same topic Hebrews speaks about here:

(Hebrews 2:14, 15) . . .that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil, 15 and that he might set free all those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death.

Satan is still the "ruler" of the world, and is therefore still, in effect, in the "heavenly places." That has been just as true since 1914 as it was since 33. But he has been brought to nothing for those who conquer, those who find salvation in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

(1 Peter 5:8-10) . . .Your adversary, the Devil, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour someone. 9 But take your stand against him, firm in the faith, knowing that the same kind of sufferings are being experienced by the entire association of your brothers in the world. 10 But after you have suffered a little while, the God of all undeserved kindness, who called you to his everlasting glory in union with Christ, will himself finish your training.. . .

This was just as true in the first century as in the twentieth and today. Nothing notable in this regard changed in 1914.

(1 John 3:8) 8 The one who practices sin originates with the Devil, because the Devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, to break up the works of the Devil.

Notice that it had already happened, and when the first glimpse of the Devil's works being broken up were seen, Jesus could say:

(Luke 10:18-20) . . .“I see Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven. 19 Look! I have given you the authority to trample underfoot serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing at all will harm you. 20 Nevertheless, do not rejoice because the spirits are made subject to you, but rejoice because your names have been written in the heavens.”

As far as the short period of time goes. This has been true for all of us ever since the last days began. (Hebrews 1:1,2) We have a relatively short lifespan, and it is reserved for all men to die. And in the overall scheme of Satan's lifetime, who may have lived for billions of years, he must know his fate is sealed and his time is short. None of us (since the warning in 33 C.E.) have known just when the entire system would be cut short for the "second time that he [Christ] appears." But in either case whether death or through his appearance, it is a short time before each of us receives a judgment.

(Hebrews 9:26-28) . . .But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to do away with sin through the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is reserved for men to die once for all time, but after this to receive a judgment, 28 so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin, and he will be seen by those earnestly looking for him for their salvation.

Obviously, this is not the ONLY way to look at these things. But you asked what I thought.

5 minutes ago, Anna said:

Pardon if I am misunderstanding, but when Jesus rode into Jerusalem etc. was he not an uncrowned king? A sovereign prince who had not yet received the crown?

That's how I understand it too. Jesus had not yet been crowned because he had not suffered death and been seated at the right hand of God.

6 minutes ago, Anna said:

And if he had received the crown, which scriptures tell us this?

(Hebrews 2:9) . . .But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death,. . .

So it would be some time after suffering death, and his resurrection. When he sits at God's right hand he is at the right hand of the "throne of Majesty." He is therefore "ruling as king" with Jehovah.

(Hebrews 8:1) . . .he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

We also know this because Paul changes the word "sit at my right hand" to "rule as king." So Paul thinks of them as equivalent.

(1 Corinthians 15:25-27) 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.”. . .

Also, in Hebrews it is a given that Jesus, from Judah, would be a king, after the manner of Melchizedek:

(Hebrews 7:1, 2) 7 For this Mel·chizʹe·dek, king of Saʹlem, priest of the Most High God, met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name is translated “King of Righteousness,” and then also king of Saʹlem, that is, “King of Peace.”

So now that Jesus is part of the enthronement setup at God's right hand, he is also, therefore, ruling as king.

Just as Paul said in 1 Corinthians, above, that Jesus would go on conquering in the midst of his enemies up until the last enemy is conquered, we also have an image in Revelation like this:

(Revelation 6:1, 2) 6 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder: “Come!” 2 And I saw, and look! a white horse, and the one seated on it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went out conquering and to complete his conquest.

This mention of his crown in Revelation 6 is given a lead-up in the entire 5th chapter, which is a bit long to quote completely, but notice the highlighted verses:

5 And I saw in the right hand of the One seated on the throne a scroll written on both sides, sealed tight with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice: “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?” . . .  5 But one of the elders said to me: “Stop weeping. Look! The Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has conquered so as to open the scroll and its seven seals.”
6 And I saw standing in the midst of the throne . . . a lamb that seemed to have been slaughtered, . . . . . . . 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
11 And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne . . . 12 and they were saying with a loud voice: “The Lamb who was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power . . . .”
13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.” 14 The four living creatures were saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshipped.

If the elders fell down and worshipped the One sitting on the throne and the Lamb standing in the midst of the throne, then Jesus, at this point must have a position of kingship granted by Jehovah. We can find out what that time was by going back to Paul.

(Ephesians 1:19-22) . . .It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his strength, 20 which he exercised toward Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come. 22 He also subjected all things under his feet . . .

(Philippians 2:8-11) . . .to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Note that Philippians, here, reads like a commentary of Revelation 5. It explains why (his sacrificial death) even those in heaven now openly "bend the knee" to Jesus to the glory of God.

On 6/28/2017 at 2:58 PM, Gnosis Pithos said:

Then, the dispensation of time prophecy is erred by marking Jesus king in 33CE. That would nullify all the efforts Jesus made NOT to be made king by the mass crowd as suggested in John 6:15 and would misalign, what Jesus meant in John 18:36. Once again a none sustainable argument, until the fulfillment in 1914.

We already know from other scriptures that Jesus became king in 33 C.E. John 6:15 does not contradict the rest of the Bible at all.  As you know, John 6:15 says the following, along with a bit of context:

(John 6:12-17) 12 But when they had eaten their fill, he said to his disciples: “Gather together the fragments left over, so that nothing is wasted.” 13 So they gathered them together and filled 12 baskets with fragments left over by those who had eaten from the five barley loaves. 14 When the people saw the sign he performed, they began to say: “This really is the Prophet who was to come into the world.” 15 Then Jesus, knowing that they were about to come and seize him to make him king, withdrew again to the mountain all alone. 16 When evening fell, his disciples went down to the sea, 17 and boarding a boat, they set out across the sea for Ca·perʹna·um. By now it had grown dark, and Jesus had not yet come to them.

This particular crowd may have wanted to make him king based on the fact that he could provide earthly things, such as food, and as you already pointed out, we know that Jesus would later say, in John 18:

(John 18:36, 37) . . .“My Kingdom is no part of this world. If my Kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my Kingdom is not from this source.” 37 So Pilate said to him: “Well, then, are you a king?” Jesus answered: “You yourself are saying that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, . . .

Also, notice that Jesus did not condemn a different crowd who would also declare him king, and Jesus even helped set up the scenario:

(Matthew 21:1-9) 21 When they got close to Jerusalem and arrived at Bethʹpha·ge on the Mount of Olives, then Jesus sent two disciples, 2 saying to them: “Go into the village that is within sight, and you will at once find a donkey tied and a colt with her. Untie them and bring them to me. 3 If someone says anything to you, you must say, ‘The Lord needs them.’ At that he will immediately send them.” 4 This actually took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet, who said: 5 “Tell the daughter of Zion: ‘Look! Your king is coming to you, mild-tempered and mounted on a donkey, yes, on a colt, the offspring of a beast of burden.’” 6 So the disciples went and did just as Jesus had instructed them. 7 They brought the donkey and its colt, and they put their outer garments on them, and he sat on them. 8 Most of the crowd spread their outer garments on the road, while others were cutting down branches from the trees and spreading them on the road. 9 Moreover, the crowds going ahead of him and those following him kept shouting: “Save, we pray, the Son of David! Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name! Save him, we pray, in the heights above!”

This is a low-cost version of what the people of that time period termed a "PAROUSIA." As the New World Translation Appendix stated:

*** Rbi8 p. 1577 5B Christ’s Presence (Parousia) ***
Also, Bauer, p. 630, states that pa·rou·siʹa “became the official term for a visit of a person of high rank, esp[ecially] of kings and emperors visiting a province.”

This type of royal visitation (parousia) often took the form of a parade with joyous crowds and fanfare. Of course, to a disobedient province, such a visitation (parousia) could also include a display of judgment against enemies of the state.

On 6/28/2017 at 2:58 PM, Gnosis Pithos said:

Some of Russell’s followers leaned toward Adventism, while Russell himself didn’t. An early problem of a nondenominational church that voted their Elders in, and was independent of Russell’s primary church the people's pulpit. The same can be said about publications like the Bible Examiner.

This is mostly true. Russell used the name Watch Tower for the primary corporation for nearly 40 years, incorporated officially for more than 30 of those years. The People's Pulpit, of course, was just an alternative name for the purpose of owning property in New York that the Pennsylvania corporation hadn't been set up for. (It could have been expanded for that purpose, but Russell had personal reasons to move all money out of Pennsylvania during his divorce.) But Russell only used that alternative name for 7 years before he died. Later it was changed from People's Pulpit [of New York] to "Watchtower Bible and Tract Society [of New York]"

On 6/28/2017 at 2:58 PM, Gnosis Pithos said:

While Storrs and others continued a path inconsistent with that of Russell, Russell relied only on what Scripture showed. So, once again, 1914 is scripturally sound through Russell’s reasoning,

Russell continued to rely on a chronological system that promoted each of the following dates as specially marked in prophecy or predicted in prophecy. Almost all of them were still distinctly considered Biblically significant, and still being published "in print" in the publications until at least a decade after Russell died.

• 1776
• 1780
• 1798
• 1799
• 1800
• 1829
• 1833
• 1840
• 1844
• 1846
• c.1859
• 1872
• 1873
• 1874
• 1875
• 1876
• 1878
• 1879
• 1881
• 1910
• c.1911
• 1912
• 1914
• 1915
• 1918 (date predicted in 1917, based on Russell's writings, 8.5 months after his death)
• 1920 (date predicted in 1917, based on Russell's writings, 8.5 months after his death)

So, tell me again, how Russell relied only on what the Scripture showed that made the 1914 date "scripturally sound."

After about 1995, I have had no first-hand knowledge about their travel arrangements. Up until then, there was a lot of first-class travel in the 1970s through the mid-1990s, but it was always said to be "gifted" and did not come through the general donations to the worldwide work. Also, it depended completely on where they were going, and if a congregation or wealthy brother sponsored the travel. There were some supposed scandals in the mid 1990's too of GB taking expensive "luxury" vacations, but these were "gifted."

I traveled with Brother Schroeder to Europe and he flew first-class while I took Freddy Laker to London for $99. But I also took first-class trains and hovercraft between many destinations: London-Paris-Madrid-Barcelona-Rome-Corfu-Athens-Milan-Innsbruck-Berne-Wiesbaden-Hamburg and Brother Schroeder almost always had a small plane flight or even a car arranged between some of these same locations. Not a private plane, although this happens in Australia and Alaska and parts of Africa in places where private planes (not private jets) are more practical than cars.

2 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Lot's of info to go through but I couldn't overlook this one. What would you say the particular "horn" making war with the "holy ones" represents?

This could get really fun, and cover a lot of different topics, and you know that I probably couldn't stop myself from joining in.  But another "thread" would be better. I'm really not anxious to share too many ideas on Daniel and Revelation, even though I think there are several places where simpler and clearer understandings are possible. But I'm not trying to give the impression that I "know" anything more than you or anyone else on all these matters. And I think I've probably caused enough confusion or commotion in the way I brought up 1914 this time.