On 4/8/2017 at 4:03 PM, Tammie Nokes said:

Who is the brother that gave the talk?

Bro. Rayford. 10 years ago. Nothing to see here.

An article in the 2006 Watchtower had just come out that said that Matthew 24:14 had already been fulfilled in Paul's day, and the end had already come, too:

• *** w06 2/1 p. 24 pars. 11-12 “A Witness to All the Nations” ***
• 11 Jehovah richly blessed the efforts of those and other zealous workers. Less than 30 years after Jesus foretold that there would be a witness to all the nations, Paul wrote that the “good news” had been “preached in all creation that is under heaven.” (Colossians 1:23) Did the end then come? In a sense, yes. It came upon the Jewish system of things in the year 70 C.E. when Roman armies destroyed Jerusalem along with the temple. Yet, Jehovah had determined that a far greater witness would be given before he would bring an end to Satan’s global system of things.

But there was no difference in the way that article spoke of the nearness of the fulfillment in our day, nothing about a complete fulfillment yet.

If I had to guess, Brother James Rayford is extrapolating from some comments that are heard from time to time by members of the Governing Body. The question comes up about whether Armageddon must wait until all nations have had a thorough witness. The answer is always, NO. And sometimes the verse in Colossians or another in Romans is used as a way of showing that 100% saturation is not necessary for the next items in the anticipated agenda to also be fulfilled. The point is that we can't wait and say that the end can't come yet, when Jesus said it could come any time. It's easy to misinterpret this somewhat if one wants to drive home a point about the closeness of the end.

Could just be an interpretation or two on top of a mix-up, but it seemed quite possible to me that the idea was to show that JWs are corrupting the youth. This is a really old-school technique, since it was used on Socrates.

The article said that much of the day was spent discussing the JW view of blood transfusions. This argument has more negative effect when people view how the doctrine affects young people.

https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/russian-students-framed-as-jehovahs-witnesses-in-field-trip-to-crowd-courtroom-57684

*** it-1 p. 253 Baptism ***
The passage at 1 Corinthians 15:29 is variously rendered by translators: “What shall they do which are baptized for the dead?” (KJ); “on behalf of their dead?” (AT); “on behalf of the dead?” (NE); “for the purpose of being dead ones?” (NW)

I think the Mormons wait until the person is dead, no? Isn't this why they are so interested in genealogies?

(Philippians 2:8-11) . . .. 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Not all sentient life can speak. Earthworms for example, not that you needed an example. Yet earthworms are under the ground. I think we should limit it to those with tongues and with the ability to openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, and make a request for a good conscience.

(1 Peter 3:21, 22) 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, is also now saving you (not by the removing of the filth of the flesh, but by the request to God for a good conscience), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 22 He is at God’s right hand, for he went to heaven, and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.

Of course, there might be issues. What if we need to baptize them in mercury or liquid sulphur because they are not the kind of carbon based life form that manages well when water is applied to them?

Or if they are mostly made of bone, and the bone is mostly a pumice material, then we might have to drop them from extreme heights to make sure they get fully immersed. (After the talk we meet at the bungee bridge for the baptism.)

That leads to another question. What if, instead of we discovering them, they discover us? I hope they know to baptize humans in water and not, say, liquid nitrogen, or sulphuric acid.

@Bible Speaks There is still no evidence that Easter has anything to do with Ishtar. Seriously, it's no more of a link than to claim that Easter came from Queen Esther, or even that eggs contain cholesterol. I'm sure it's true that there was a lot of folklore that claimed there was a "god" of the West, North, South, and, of course, also the East (the dawn), but this is not so different than saying that there is an angel in charge of each of the four corners (directions) of the earth. 

(Revelation 7:1, 2) . . .After this I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, so that no wind could blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the East* [NWT, footnote]

There are non-Christian religious commentators that would look at that phrase in Revelation 7:2 and say that Christians have a 'god' or 'goddess' of the sunrise. In fact the current NWT translates the word "east" here as "sunrise" (dawn). An early name of Bible Students who followed the Watchtower was Dawn, Dawners, and Millennial Dawn. If someone came along and said that early followers of the Watchtower were based on pagan religion who worshiped pyramids and a god of the Dawn, we would rightly be upset at being misjudged. Yet this is what we are trying to do others when we 'paint with such a broad brush.'

It's true that Eggs and Rabbits are fertility symbols, just like spring flowers, and birds and bees and "dogwood trees" are also fertility symbols. Obviously it makes no sense to add flowers, and rabbits, and eggs and "peeps" (marshmallow baby chicks) to a celebration that should have been about the joy of Christ's resurrection. But this doesn't mean that we need to imply that all persons who want to celebrate Easter are "Babylonish" and wicked. Remember that with the measuring cup we are measuring out, we will be judged in return.

The Jews came up with several new special holidays (or fast days) to commemorate the terrible events that befell their capital city, their government, and their Temple at Jerusalem.

*** it-1 p. 812 Fast ***
Four Annual Fasts of the Jews. The Jews established many fasts, and at one time had four annual ones, evidently to mark the calamitous events associated with Jerusalem’s siege and desolation in the seventh century B.C.E. (Zec 8:19) The four annual fasts were: (1) “The fast of the fourth month” apparently commemorated the breaching of Jerusalem’s walls by the Babylonians on Tammuz 9, 607 B.C.E. (2Ki 25:2-4; Jer 52:5-7) (2) It was in the fifth Jewish month Ab that the temple was destroyed, and evidently “the fast of the fifth month” was held as a reminder of this event. (2Ki 25:8, 9; Jer 52:12, 13) (3) “The fast of the seventh month” was apparently held as a sad remembrance of Gedaliah’s death or of the complete desolation of the land following Gedaliah’s assassination when the remaining Jews, out of fear of the Babylonians, went down into Egypt. (2Ki 25:22-26) (4) “The fast of the tenth month” may have been associated with the exiled Jews already in Babylon receiving the sad news that Jerusalem had fallen (compare Eze 33:21), or it may have commemorated the commencement of Nebuchadnezzar’s successful siege against Jerusalem on the tenth day of that month, in 609 B.C.E.

They weren't condemned for setting aside these new holidays that hadn't been commanded as part of the Mosaic Law. It was a natural human thing to want to remember such important occasions. Other occasions, also not in the Mosaic Law, were set aside for feasting and happiness, such as the festival of Purim based on events surrounding Queen Esther. Another was the festival of Hanukkah that the apostle John spoke about.

(John 10:22, 23) 22 At that time the festival of Hanukkah* took place in Jerusalem. It was wintertime, 23 and Jesus was walking in the temple in the colonnade of Solʹo·mon. [*NWT, footnote]

*** Rbi8 John 10:22 ***
“The festival of dedication (Hanukkah).” J²²(Heb.), chagh ha·chanuk·kahʹ.

The point is that Christians, just like the Jews, would be expected to want to commemorate both sad and happy occasions with holidays (holy days). Calling the occasion Paschal or Easter should not condemn it or force us to judge those who want to celebrate something so joyous as the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Choosing Sunday should be no surprise, and choosing the "dawn" should be no surprise:

(Matthew 28:1-6) . . .After the Sabbath [Saturday], when it was growing light [dawn] on the first day of the week [Sunday], Mary Magʹda·lene and the other Mary came to view the grave. 2 And look! a great earthquake had taken place, for Jehovah’s angel had descended from heaven and had come and rolled away the stone, and he was sitting on it. . . .. 5 But the angel said to the women: “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus who was executed on the stake. 6 He is not here, for he was raised up, just as he said.. . .

We have every right to point out that such a holiday is being diminished by adding fertility symbols to it, but we have no right to judge anyone on the entire idea of celebrating Easter or "Resurrection Sunday."

(Romans 14:5-9) 5 One man judges one day as above another; another judges one day the same as all others; let each one be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day observes it to Jehovah. Also, the one who eats, eats to Jehovah, for he gives thanks to God; and the one who does not eat does not eat to Jehovah, and yet gives thanks to God. 7 Not one of us, in fact, lives with regard to himself only, and no one dies with regard to himself only. 8 For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah. 9 For to this end Christ died and came to life again, so that he might be Lord over both the dead and the living.

Judging others and looking down on others makes us feel superior, but we need to put ourselves in the "shoes" of others, and think about what their perspective is. Do we really judge them all as motivated toward a fertility rite. If we were that sensitive to everything that has been tainted by some form of non-Christian or non-Jewish religion, would we use the names for the days of the week? Would we buy cut flowers in the spring? Would we include a ring ceremony at weddings? Would we go to fertility doctors who can discover chemical and biological reasons to help overcome fertility issues, instead of just praying to Jehovah? Would Christians ever allow their sons to be circumcised, knowing that this was spoken of as a fertility rite for Abraham's offspring (fertility) to be as numerous as the stars or sands of the seashore?

Do we speak out so judgmentally against Jacob for practicing the old fertility rite which was apparently the same as "thrusting the shoot under the nose"?

(Ezekiel 8:17) . . .and that they should offend me again, and here they are thrusting out the shoot to my [or, their] nose?

(Genesis 30:37-43) 37 Jacob then took freshly cut staffs of the storax, almond, and plane trees, and he peeled white spots in them by exposing the white wood of the staffs. 38 Then he placed the staffs that he had peeled in front of the flock, in the gutters, in the drinking troughs, where the flocks would come to drink, that they might get into heat in front of them when they came to drink. 39 So the flocks would get into heat in front of the staffs, and the flocks would produce striped, speckled, and color-patched offspring. 40 Then Jacob separated the young rams and turned the flocks to face the striped ones and all the dark-brown ones among the flocks of Laʹban. Then he separated his own flocks and did not mix them with Laʹban’s flocks. 41 And whenever the robust animals would get into heat, Jacob would place the staffs in the gutters before the eyes of the flocks, that they might get into heat by the staffs. 42 But when the animals were weak, he would not place the staffs there. So the weak ones always came to be Laʹban’s, but the robust ones became Jacob’s. 43 And the man grew very prosperous, and he acquired great flocks and male and female servants and camels and donkeys.

This fertility rite is credited with making him rich and prosperous. Such rites were supposed to influence God (or gods) to make the thing happen as desired by the one performing the rite, yet Jehovah never judged Jacob for believing in the fertility rite.

The Watchtower is correct to point out the fact that such fertility symbols diminish the meaning of Easter, but I think we follow a very judgmental path when we start tying Easter itself to Babylon. Perhaps it's just me, but I think it's too judgmental to make the leap from finding things wrong with Easter celebrations to then saying, as you said:

On 4/9/2017 at 4:46 PM, Bible Speaks said:

It just shows us there is no Christ in Easter. 

Really? No Christ at all? I think we do better in our ministry if we come across as less judgmental and more loving, more understanding of the perspective of others.

(1 Corinthians 9:19-23) . . .. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew in order to gain Jews; to those under law I became as under law, though I myself am not under law, in order to gain those under law. 21 To those without law I became as without law, although I am not without law toward God but under law toward Christ, in order to gain those without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, in order to gain the weak. I have become all things to people of all sorts, so that I might by all possible means save some. 23 But I do all things for the sake of the good news, in order to share it with others.

1 hour ago, Bible Speaks said:

These nations need is the war of Armageddon! That will be the Blast of all time...they have murdered so many the Bible Speaks of this blood as high as the bridles of horses. That's just what is only left for these nations. Not bowing to true leadership from God's Kingdom they'll only their end and it is well deserved. 

And don't let anyone accuse us of extremist talk or this is what's going to happen to them!

On 4/7/2017 at 9:40 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

that using Sarin gas on civilians in a civil war will not be tolerated by decent men.

I have not seen any direct evidence that it was sarin gas. The evidence for such things has been proffered before by "white helmets" whose members have been caught involved in the heinous types of crimes they want to pretend are only being perpetrated by others. They have kidnapped and beheaded children and then used children in their humanitarian PR to see if they can get powers like the US to intercede on their behalf. Some of the first proofs were made by showing undamaged canisters as if that was the way to drop sarin gas from airplanes. And if the amounts necessary to cause the kinds of death displayed on videos were from exploded canisters over such an area then the perfectly placed video makers forgot that they were not supposed to touch the bodies so soon, and not all remembered that they needed to show themselves with masks on, and other necessary protective gear. This was only slightly better done (with mistakes) than previous attempts to make a toxic gas video. I also have heard that some intelligence also picked up on conversations from the day before of people claiming they were preparing toxic gas announcements for the following day - the day of the attack. The right way to make such a video of course is to get to a scene of an actual conventional bombing and then bring some actors who are willing to "writhe to death" among the dead bodies. Naturally, we will believe that a cameraman (or crew) is filming during a live sarin gas attack close enough to the toxicity to kill themselves.

I can't say that it didn't happen, or will not happen. Obviously, even the US has used toxic gases and chemicals for years, and has even manufactured and sold such weapons for years. But Assad and Russia also know the stakes, and the timing is suspicious. What we think is based on what media we pay attention to, and right now there is too much confusion and past fraud to call anything 'direct evidence.'

7 minutes ago, Queen Esther said:

J O K E R...... 

Always trying to crack a yolk. (just to give an egg-sample)

31 minutes ago, Queen Esther said:

as was the name Easter itself

But how do we know that the name didn't come from Queen "Esther" or the fact that eggs have cholESTERol?

In any case, I think that eggs should be OVOIDed.

3 hours ago, Bible Speaks said:

@The Librarian The picture gives it away with being red and crosses on them? Have you read anywhere these are used in Greek Orthodox Churches?

The Wikipedia article on Easter Egg gives a picture of one these styled eggs and says it is from a Greek Orthodox Church https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_egg:

1 hour ago, Ann O'Maly said:

I don't know exactly what s/he says from the preview or where the author gets the idea that coloring eggs originated from the practice of sacrificing infants and using their blood, but I strongly suspect that its completely made up. 

I suspect the same. The writer probably came across the same idea that is also presented in the Wikipedia article:

The Christian custom of Easter eggs, specifically, started among the early Christians of Mesopotamia, who stained eggs with red colouring "in memory of the blood of Christ, shed at His crucifixion".^[6][7][8][9]

That idea isn't a perfect fit for the rest of the article about paganism, therefore, it probably seemed useful to replace "the blood of Christ" with "blood of sacrificed infants." You have to admit that the latter has a more pagan ring to it.

By the way, the references linked as 6,7,8,9 in the quote above point to some overlapping evidence, most of which sounded very weak to me.

@ARchiv@L That reference, as you know, includes not just Josephus, but TACITUS. Thanks for the link. I'll copy the paragraph about him.

*** w10 4/1 p. 15 Did You Know? ***
A number of secular writers who lived close to the time of Jesus made specific mention of him. Among them was Cornelius Tacitus, who recorded the history of Rome under the emperors. Regarding a fire that devastated Rome in 64 C.E., Tacitus relates that it was rumored that Emperor Nero was responsible for the disaster. Nero, says Tacitus, tried to place the blame on a group whom the populace called Christians. Tacitus writes: “Christus, from whom their name is derived, was executed at the hands of the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius.”—Annals, XV, 44.

Tacitus wrote his Histories and Annals, including this one, closer to the year 116/7. This makes it earlier than that of Seutonius who wrote closer to 122. Also Tacitus is much more clear about who this Christus is and how he relates to Roman history.

1 hour ago, bruceq said:

FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS
(c. 37-100 C.E.) This Jewish priest and historian states that Annas, a Jewish high priest who continued to wield political influence, “convened the judges of the Sanhedrin [the Jewish high court] and brought before them a man named James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ.”—Jewish Antiquities, XX, 200.

This particular reference to Jesus is more often considered to be a true part of the original work of Josephus. There is another Josephus reference that is almost always considered to be a forged interpolation. This one appears to not have the "earmarks" of a forged interpolation, but there are still questions about it.

Another reference or two is found in the Talmud, and these are polemic and from a couple hundred years later, potentially, which makes them less valuable as contemporary history.

There is also SEUTONIUS, a Roman historian alive from about 69 to 122 who wrote: "The Lives of the Twelve Caesars." When writing about the reign of Claudius, who ruled from 41 to 54 (the period from 8 to 21 years after Jesus died), he included the line:

"Iudaeos impulsore Chresto assidue tumultuantis Roma expulit"

The line is considered genuine, and is most likely translated, in the ways it is shown in Wikipedia here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suetonius_on_Christians

"He expelled from Rome the Jews constantly making disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus"

"Since the Jews constantly make disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome."

The same article in Wikipedia matches it to Acts 18:2:

(Acts 18:2) And he found a Jew named Aqʹui·la, a native of Ponʹtus who had recently come from Italy with Pris·cilʹla his wife, because Claudius had ordered all the Jews to leave Rome. . . .

This appears to blame the expelling of the Jews on the many disturbances between "Hebrew" Jews and "Christian" Jews. Historians specializing in the early history of Christianity have been postulating that these disturbances were of greater importance historically than previously recognized. Such disturbances mentioned in the book of Acts, especially in the area of Jerusalem, might provide some Biblical evidence of how easily these disturbances flared up.

(Acts 2:5-10) 5 At that time devout Jews from every nation under heaven were staying in Jerusalem....[including]... sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,

(Acts 6:1-7) 6 Now in those days when the disciples were increasing, the Greek-speaking Jews began complaining against the Hebrew-speaking Jews,. . .  7 Consequently, the word of God continued to spread, and the number of the disciples kept multiplying very much in Jerusalem; and a large crowd of priests began to be obedient to the faith.

(Acts 13:5) 5 When they arrived in Salʹa·mis, they began proclaiming the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews.. . .

(Acts 13:45) 45 When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began blasphemously contradicting the things Paul was saying.

(Acts 13:50) 50 But the Jews incited the prominent women who were God-fearing and the principal men of the city, and they stirred up persecution . . .

(Acts 14:1-4) . . .. 2 But the Jews who did not believe stirred up and wrongly influenced the people of the nations against the brothers. . . .  4 However, the multitude of the city was divided; some were for the Jews but others for the apostles.

(Acts 16:3) 3 Paul expressed the desire for Timothy to accompany him, and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews in those places, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.

(Acts 16:20, 21) 20 Leading them up to the civil magistrates, they said: “These men are disturbing our city very much. They are Jews, 21 and they are proclaiming customs that it is not lawful for us to adopt or practice, seeing that we are Romans.”

(Acts 17:1-5) . . .where there was a synagogue of the Jews. 2 So according to Paul’s custom he went inside to them,. . .  4 As a result, some of them became believers and associated themselves with Paul and Silas, and so did a great multitude of the Greeks who worshipped God, along with quite a few of the principal women. 5 But the Jews, getting jealous, gathered together some wicked men who were loitering at the marketplace and formed a mob and proceeded to throw the city into an uproar.. . .

(Acts 20:3) . . .because a plot was hatched against him by the Jews when he was about to set sail for Syria. . .

(Acts 21:20, 21) . . .“You see, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews, and they are all zealous for the Law. 21 But they have heard it rumored about you that you have been teaching all the Jews among the nations an apostasy from Moses. . .

(Acts 21:27, 28, 30) 27 Now when the seven days were about to end, the Jews from Asia, on seeing him in the temple, stirred up the whole crowd, and they seized him, 28 shouting: “Men of Israel, help! This is the man who teaches everyone everywhere against our people and our Law and this place. . . . 30 The whole city was in an uproar,

Some historians have begun to look at some of these references to "Jews" and now see a few of them as references to "Christian Jews" who were the ones hatching plots against Paul and others. While this may not be true of these references from Acts, there are literary evidences of Christians who believed Paul was teaching apostasy.

I only bring it up to show how and why either Seutonius or Claudius may have conflated the disturbances among Jews with those of followers of Christ. Most Christians of the time, even in Asia Minor and Italy had still come from the Greek-speaking supporters of the Jewish synagogues, where it was Paul's custom to  preach, everywhere he traveled.

15 hours ago, Bible Speaks said:

The Roman Emperor Constantine renamed this image “Mary & Baby Jesus” in the 3rd Century

Constantine was not an emperor in the 3rd century.

58 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It’s not my cause. I am a neutral Jehovah’s Witness, interested in these things only as ‘current history.’

I appreciated the fact that you wrote this. You say you are neutral and I believe you. And I would agree that being neutral should not mean that neutral people should be ignorant of current history. Unfortunately, many people in the United States at least appear to be ignorant of current history, but are not neutral in most senses of the word. Still, relatively few vote, and even those who do mostly believe that they have no say or power in any form of national government. This makes them feel "neutered" but not neutral. The partisan swings that happen every 4 to 8 years since Roosevelt have at least given most of the US population a sense that "it's their turn" and they will be at least partly represented (to the extent that their views have been incorporated into the talking points of either one of the two major parties).

But this election, just like many in Europe and elsewhere, was a call to populism by the winning politicians. Populism is full of anger, tribalism (nativism), progressivism, and hopefulness. It's not easy to define. Bernie Sanders was the big winner of the progressive and angry hopefulness, and not really a Democrat. Donald Trump was the big winner of the nativist and angry hopefulness, and not really a Republican. Both groups hoped for an economic fix. Both groups knew deep-down, that such a fix would include trillions less spent on wars, and trillions more spent on the homeland (infrastructure, for example).

There were a lot of things that people from all sides of the "populist hopes" could have agreed on from either populist candidate (Trump or Sanders). But the swamp remains because it is funded by corporate greed, mostly military contractors who want to sell weapons. 

It takes a lot of energy and will to drain such a swamp, and in the end, of course, it appears that the swamp has already drained Trump.

3 hours ago, The Librarian said:

I like tacos

Please start a new thread.

On 4/7/2017 at 7:16 PM, Bible Speaks said:

Do you see anything in my picture of concern? Thank you ???

I like the pictures and I like the scriptures. They usually go together well, as this one does.

I am concerned about the content of the "contributed" article however. If that article had been contributed to the Watchtower for publication, it would have been thrown out on the grounds of "apostasy." It has some ideas in it that are well worth discussing, and I think that others have brought up these ideas here already. But when an idea is brought up for discussion, we should know the source, so as not to be confused. There is nothing wrong with a Bible-based discussion of any ideas, even apostate ideas. After all, several of the things we now believe were once considered to be "apostasy."

The problem is that people should be aware when something is written in a way that it provides a basis for a potentially controversial discussion. It shouldn't be styled in a way that just makes a statement without any warning that this could be controversial. Otherwise, it can give the impression that it was intended to "trick" people into believing it is what all of us already believe.

I suspect, @Bible Speaks, that you didn't realize the apparently "apostate" points in the article. And it's possible they were worded that way accidentally. As you probably were not aware, I will try to summarize the way this article would have likely been read by a Watchtower editor. I'll flag some points in red and add some bracketed explanations.

On 4/7/2017 at 6:28 PM, Bible Speaks said:

When threatened and under pressure, Apostle Peter with the other apostles had a strong conviction: "We must obey God as ruler rather than men." (Acts 5:29)  [Excellent!]

How about us? Do we make God our ruler rather than men? Well, will you join us to make an examination to ourselves, if God Jehovah is truly our ruler and not men? [Doesn't sound wrong, but notice that it might be setting up a test so that we can compare our beliefs as Jehovah's Witnesses with the Bible. We have been accused of serving men rather than God when it comes to the way in which our Governing Body asks us to be obedient to their lead. In fact the line is reminiscent of two similar quotes where statements in our publications have been used against us. For example:

*** tr chap. 2 p. 13 par. 5 Why It Is Wise to Examine Your Religion ***
We need to examine, not only what we personally believe, but also what is taught by any religious organization with which we may be associated. Are its teachings in full harmony with God’s Word, or are they based on the traditions of men? If we are lovers of the truth, there is nothing to fear from such an examination.]

God's word says: "I am Jehovah your God." (Exodus 20:2) While in Jesus Christ, he always claim and confirmed by his disciples that he is God's Son. (John 1:14,34,49,51) [Excellent!]

God's word says: "You must not have any other gods besides me.You must not make.. a carved image.. not bow down to them nor be enticed to serve them." (Exodus 20:3-5) While Jesus Christ said, "God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship in spirit and truth."-John 4:23,24 [Excellent! However, these scriptures have often been used to point out that JWs tend to "serve" an organization as if it's nearly on the same level as Jehovah or Jesus. The context of the verses in John 4 have often been used in order to say that we shouldn't need an organization to teach us the truth.

(John 4:20-25) . . .Our forefathers worshipped on this mountain, but you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where people must worship.” 21 Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.” 25 The woman said to him: “I know that Mes·siʹah is coming, who is called Christ. Whenever that one comes, he will declare all things to us openly.”]

God's word says through Jesus Christ: "You are no part of the world.. just as I am no part of the world." (John 15:19; 17:16) [Excellent! Maybe, however, there is a very subtle point about the choice between a "heavenly hope" and "earthly hope" here that will be later tied to the Memorial celebration, in a way that is not at all in line with our current teachings.]

Up to this point it might not have been clear that this really about the upcoming Memorial celebration. However, watch the real point of the article become clearer.

On 4/7/2017 at 6:28 PM, Bible Speaks said:

God's word says through Jesus Christ: "I am the bread of life... If anyone eats of this bread he will live forever.. whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day.".. And during the Lord's Evening meal, Jesus Christ gives the real meaning of his previous invitation to his disciples: "Jesus took a loaf.., he said: "Take, eat.This means my body. And taking a cup.. saying: "Drink out of it, all of you, for this means my 'blood of covenant', which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins". (John 6:48-57, 60,61, 66,67; Matthew 26:26-28) [It's true we use the same verses all the time, but this time the point is that God through Christ has given us a command to obey! And the context of the verse says that this command was for "all of you" meaning the apostles, but also Jesus had said that it has a wider application to ANYONE who will live forever. It's for WHOEVER will obey so that they can have everlasting life and be resurrected on the last day. This has become the full set-up now for the "test" of our own desire to obey God or men.]

While men says; "Only the little flock, who have an immortality hope in heaven,  will partake the emblems during the Memorial of Lord's Evening Meal."  [And so there we have the "test:" Men say only the little flock who have the hope of immortality should obey God's word through Christ to partake (and keep on doing this). Yet Jesus said it's for "all of you," "anyone," and "whoever" would appreciate the gift of everlasting life, and the forgiveness of sins.]  

God's word says through Jesus Christ: "Do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the Heavenly One. Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ. But the greatest among you must be your minister." (Matthew 23:9-11) [So, the idea is now to test whether we passed the test. Do we follow men who say not to partake because it's only for a select few? Or do we follow Jesus and Jehovah who say it's for all of us to obey this reminder?]

So the basic idea, as it is written in this article, is to cast doubt on the authority of men we have accepted. The last few paragraphs therefore are really intended, I think, to cast doubt on the organization and portray it as a false prophet:

On 4/7/2017 at 6:28 PM, Bible Speaks said:

While in the early Christians, all of them have a hope of going up to heaven, all had received the gifts of holy spirit in different ways as Apostle Paul said: ". . . let him acknowledged the things I am writing to you, because they are the Lord's commandments." (1 Corinthians 14:31,37) [All the early Christians had the hope of going to heaven, and the end of he verse about the early congregation reminds them about obedience to the Lord's commandments. Nothing specifically tied to the thesis of the article here, but still connected.]

God's word says through Jesus Christ: "Continue to love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." (Matthew 5:44) While in Jesus Christ advice: "Prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have? . . .  Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? You must accordingly be perfect, as your  heavenly Father is perfect."- Matthew 5:45-48 [Nothing wrong with these points, but they are likely here tied to the idea of Christians not being a part of the world, which is a command for all of us. Even if we hold to an "earthly hope" to live forever in paradise, we are still proving ourselves sons of our Father in the heavens. We are in this sense "heavenly" and not "people of the nations." Also, the term "sons of your Father" appears to be applicable to all Christians here, as the only other choice is being "earthly" in the sense of doing no better than people of the nations.]

Jesus Christ reminds us: "For false Christ and false prophets will arise.. so as to mislead, if possible even the chosen ones . Look! I have forewarned you." (Matthew 24:24)  [This is a conclusion, which would have no place unless the point was that we as followers of an earthly organization, are being misled. The use of the term "chosen ones" here is probably more significant to the writer in the sense that "chosen ones" have been misled into disobeying Christ's command to partake because they have been misled into not recognizing themselves as "chosen ones" -- Christians!]

Jesus Christ also forewarned us by giving us the illustration of weeds and wheat that "his enemy (the Devil ) came and oversowed weeds (sons of the wicked one ) in among the wheat... both grow together." (Matthew 13:24-30, 37-40) [The same point made from Matthew 24:24, implying that we might be being misled by "weeds" and again that the choice for Christians is to be either "sons of your Father in heaven," or "sons of the wicked one." No other choices are given in the Bible. Also, this particular illustration is another that is often used to show that specific organizations are of no consequence, since the wheat and weeds grow together with nothing to distinguish them until the angels participation in the final harvest.]

Apostle Paul also reminds us: "Beware, brothers, for fear there should ever develop in any one of you a wicked heart lacking faith by drawing away from the living God."- Hebrews 3:12. Contributed [This is a conclusion derived from ideas in the article that speaks of those who disobey the command to partake of the emblems, and speaks of them as drawing away from God and having a "wicked heart."]

So, it's always good to watch out where we get things from. If we wish to discuss the issues brought up here, that's great, but we shouldn't have these types of posts thrust upon everyone completely unaware.

2 hours ago, The Librarian said:

@Eoin Joyce resorting to attacking the messenger rather than his message? 

Sometimes when we don't like an irrefutable truth it is easier to attack the messenger.

????

Edited to add. While I was writing something here and before I pressed 'submit' I saw a message pop up that Eoin was just then already responding so I quickly removed everything I had written so that I could first read what Eoin's take on this had been. It sounds like Eoin was thinking about the same thing that I was.  It has always been my experience that Eoin is one of most careful to avoid actually attacking the messenger. It has been my experience that he makes the forum a pleasure because he deals with the subject matter rather than the personalities. It's not that I don't know what it might have sounded like he was saying, but the very fact that it might have sounded like he meant something that he didn't actually say is an opportunity to check our own pre-judgments about what was meant.

My original response was going to include:

Why does my current response in this topic remind me of Proverbs 27:17? 

• (Proverbs 26:17) 17 Like someone grabbing hold of a dog’s ears Is the one passing by who becomes furious about a quarrel that is not his.

Of course, I was happy to remove it (initially) because I didn't want anyone to think I was calling them a dog.

Ecclesiastes 7:16 NLT - "So don’t be too good or too wise! Why destroy yourself?"

This translation makes it easier to see in it the expression: "Perfect is the enemy of good." (Which might be a difficult meaning to grasp for non-native speakers of English.) It might not be about what we "show" but about putting too much effort into being good or wise.

Your point @Eoin Joyce is appreciated.

On 4/7/2017 at 8:40 PM, Anna said:

 UNITED STATES HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM EXPRESSES DEEP CONCERN OVER TREATMENT OF JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES IN RUSSIA

https://www.ushmm.org/information/press/press-releases/museum-statement-on-jehovahs-witnesses-in-russia

There are ways to use this fact to better effect than the stack of letters themselves.

22 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Will the Russian Orthodox Church succeed in making Putin look like an ass before the world, when everyone will read jw.og and see that it is not extremist?

Do you really think we should be comparing world leaders to animals?

(Luke 13:31, 32) 31 In that very hour some of the Pharisees came up and told him: “Get out and go away from here, because Herod wants to kill you.” 32 And he said to them: “Go and tell that fox, . . .

Sounds right to me.

On 4/3/2017 at 0:04 AM, enrique said:

And now the Russian thing too

The "Russia thing" as you called it, has the potential to rekindle the kind of spirit that brings more closeness and awareness of each other both in the congregations and around the world, and a lot more excitement to greater activity, fuller and more active Kingdom Halls, etc.

Some other points however:

I don't think it's fair to say we are forbidden to speculate. Speculating is a natural way to learn and think.

You say there has been an increase of Witnesses in the 3rd world as if this is a problem. I don't get it. This means we are not blessed?

• “The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses wants to heighten attention to this critical situation,” states David A. Semonian, a spokesman at the Witnesses’ world headquarters. “Prosecuting non-violent, law-abiding citizens as if they were terrorists is clearly a misapplication of anti-extremist laws. Such prosecution is based on completely false grounds.”

This is 100% correct, and anyone interested in religious freedom, Jehovah's Witnesses or not, should be interested in what we are doing here. We could probably find people to join us in the campaign who are not even JWs.

I am concerned, though, that there might be a Rutherfordization effort going on here, too. Included in the campaign is the name of a Russian Supreme Court judge. The WTS is aware of the law being broken by attempting to directly sway a judge assigned to a case. For those who don't already know, I'll explain what is meant by Rutherfordization is after the dust settles. (Assuming it settles.)

4 hours ago, Anna said:

Is that a rhetorical question or you want my opinion? ....No, you don't.

You think that's funny?  ...Yes, I do, too.

Actually my original response (up there about Santa and Mt Everest and pushing the envelope) was going to be part of a dumb joke which I realized wasn't going to be very funny or easily understood. So I thought better of it, and only left a portion of my response, which makes even less sense on its own. Carry on. Nothing to see here.