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I think you are mostly right. And I was only trying to show how unreasonable the results could be if this was taken seriously. However, I doubt that Arauna is alone in a similar line of thinking that there must be something diabolical even in quotes like the following that she found in the UN documents: To this exact quote, you may have notice that she responded to it by saying: "SOUNDS LIKE THEY WANT TO BRING PEACE AND SECURITY ! SATANS VERSION OF JEHOVAH'S GOVERNMENT. See below where they talk of peace and security linked with sustainable development." So, this type of thinking might not be as absent from among us as you indicated.

*** w20 November pp. 14-15 Take Courage—Jehovah Is Your Helper *** HELP FROM INDIVIDUALS IN AUTHORITY ... 13 What help do we receive? When it is in harmony with his purpose, Jehovah may use his powerful holy spirit to cause people in authority to do what he desires. King Solomon wrote: “A king’s heart is like streams of water in Jehovah’s hand. He directs it wherever He pleases.” (Prov. 21:1) What does this proverb mean? Humans can dig a canal to divert the water of a stream in a direction that fits their plans. Similarly, Jehovah can use his spirit to divert the thoughts of rulers in a direction that is in harmony with his purpose. When that occurs, people in authority feel motivated to make decisions that benefit God’s people.—Compare Ezra 7:21, 25, 26. 14 What can we do? We can pray “concerning kings and all those who are in positions of authority” when these individuals are called on to make decisions that affect our Christian life and ministry. (1 Tim. 2:1, 2, ftn.; Neh. 1:11) I notice that the Watchtower also includes this within the idea of paying back Caesar's things to Caesar, and even the idea of "being ready for every good work" is subsumed under the idea of performing "government" sponsored works: *** w90 11/1 pp. 11-12 pars. 7-8 The Christian’s View of the Superior Authorities *** 7 Further, Paul’s exhortation to be in subjection to the superior authorities is in harmony with Jesus’ command to pay back “Caesar’s things to Caesar,” where “Caesar” represents secular authority. (Matthew 22:21) It also agrees with Paul’s later words to Titus: “Continue reminding them to be in subjection and be obedient to governments and authorities as rulers, to be ready for every good work.” (Titus 3:1) Hence, when Christians are ordered by governments to share in community works, they quite properly comply as long as those works do not amount to a compromising substitute for some unscriptural service or otherwise violate Scriptural principles, such as that found at Isaiah 2:4. 8 Peter also affirmed that we should be subject to the secular authorities of this world when he said: “For the Lord’s sake subject yourselves to every human creation: whether to a king as being superior or to governors as being sent by him to inflict punishment on evildoers but to praise doers of good.” (1 Peter 2:13, 14) In harmony with this, Christians would also heed Paul’s admonition to Timothy: “I therefore exhort, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, offerings of thanks, be made concerning all sorts of men, concerning kings and all those who are in high station; in order that we may go on leading a calm and quiet life.”—1 Timothy 2:1, 2. Srecko brought up a point about how neutrality might be equated with lack of knowledge, but it is clear that knowledge would be necessary to distinguish whether those community works requested by authorities are not some form of compromise. It's easy to imagine a group of Witnesses who are told by government authorities that they must clean up a polluted lake or waterway before undertaking some large building projects on its shores, or that they must clean up the toxins that can carry runoff into the water to protect animals depending on it. In spite of the recent article about neutrality, when such situation occurred, Witness lawyers (and others) actually lobbied the relevant government authorities for favorable rulings. Lawsuits were initiated by the WTS to overcome the costs of some of these decisions. I know that brothers were called in to gain a lot of knowledge about the situation before some of these actions were taken. But I also talked personally with one of the lawyers involved and it was my assessment that the spirit of Jesus' words here were not taken to heart: (Matthew 5:40-46) . . .And if a person wants to take you to court and get possession of your inner garment, let him also have your outer garment; 41 and if someone in authority compels you into service for a mile, go with him two miles. 42 ... 43 “You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? In the future, if WItnesses are told to build buildings that meet certain "green standards" to meet certain SDG's (Sustainable Development Goals) do you think that some Witnesses might rightly lobby against it, because these SDG's were suggested to governmental authorities by the UN, who only promoted them because they were a way of promoting "peace and security"? And we all know that when we support anything that combines "UN" with "peace and security" we are supporting Satan's schemes? A little bit of knowledge won't hurt us. We should not be ignorant of Satan's designs either: *** nwtsty 2 Corinthians Study Notes—Chapter 2 *** we are not ignorant of his designs: Paul does not just say that “we are aware of his designs.” Rather, he uses a figure of speech called litotes, that is, an understatement made in order to give emphasis by saying that the opposite is not true. (An example of litotes can be found at Ac 21:39, where Tarsus is called “no obscure city,” which means an important city.) Accordingly, some translations render this phrase “we are well aware of his schemes” or “we know his wiles all too well,” which conveys similar emphasis. This is a double-edged argument. Arauna is correct therefore to look to whether any of these "community works" are actually compromising. She correctly said she would have to "go along" with some of them even if she hated where they were coming from. But since we all stand individually before the judgment seat, we should all have a reason for the stand we take.

I don't think the scripture meant that we need to pray out any particular persons or schemes, only that the men in high positions who make decisions that might affect us, and our preaching work, will make decisions that result in the kind of peace and security that have a net positive effect. There's something to that, I agree. We get the necessary peace when they stay out of our way. But the verse can mean a range of things to different persons in different circumstances. Some get more specific in their prayers than others. I think we could even pray that someone comes up with a vaccine for Covid19. Some would say no, because that's like praying for a worldly medical institution.

No. I never saw any evidence provided by the UN with respect to this man from Ethiopia. I never saw any evidence from you either. Just a claim with no evidence. Your assumption and judgment are both wrong in this case. Perhaps you have been watching for a longer time, and perhaps, as you say, you don't have the kind of time to watch. But I get the impression that your sources are not from watching the UN anyway, but they come from conspiratorial, racist, lying and/or biased sources. I like to look at the viability of as many sources as I can, and I agree that this can be very time consuming. And I also don't think people should merely repeat slanderous accusations without taking some time to research these claims first. It's easy to claim things you don't agree with are simply "irrelevant." If you have evidence, point to it. Show it. Give a link to the person who claimed that the WHO president genocided his own people, for example. I think there is none. But there is quite a bit of evidence that this was a lie from racist and politically motivated sources. I go where the evidence takes me, and it's not my fault when evidence for one way or another seems to "dominate." We all have more important things to do. But I don't have anything against providing evidence. Evidence can come from scholars on all sides of a controversy. We can listen to all of them. And evidence doesn't have to come from just scholars and experts, either. An average person like me can take a video of something and it provides good evidence, too. An average person can track down an expert's contradictory statements, or admissions of making false statements, and this can provide evidence, too. (I just found an amazing admission of false statements by someone this morning and I'll make a post about it when I get time.) I've given up on this forum a couple of times. But it's the only forum I use. I have a FB account I haven't written on in 4 years, and I have a Twitter account to read news, but I never write anything there. Also, this is a diverse group willing to talk about a lot of different subjects. I don't think any of us know many people at our Hall that would be comfortable with a lot of these topics. So I typically tend to come back after a few days. I hope your move goes well, and I hope to see you on these pages again.

By the way, the evidence indicates that this is nothing more than an outrageous lie. I think we should be careful is not to slander people just because some propagandist or conspiracy theorist or even racists made some claims that were so easily debunked. The evidence was already presented under another topic. In the case of the leader of WHO, evidence showed that the slander was most likely both politically and racially motivated. The fact that you included this without any evidence puts a cloud of suspicion over everything else you have claimed without evidence. I hope everyone who reads your comments recognizes that the majority of what you included in that post were your own comments, not quotes from the UN documents. And your comments usually had nothing to do with the UN statements. Try to find a UN based source that shows that the UN (UNESCO) is enforcing sex education that teaches children from age 4 to touch themselves and teaches the grossest forms of porneia. Based on the above, i suspect you will have no success. I went to the UNESCO site and found their guidelines. They are summarized here: The Technical Guidance is designed to assist education policy makers in all countries design accurate and age-appropriate curricula for children and young people aged 5 – 18+. Based on a review of the current status of sexuality education around the world and drawing on best practices in the various regions, the Guidance notably demonstrates that sexuality education: helps young people become more responsible in their attitude and behaviour regarding sexual and reproductive health is essential to combat the school dropout of girls due to early or forced marriage, teenage pregnancy and sexual and reproductive health issues is necessary because in some parts of the world, two out of three girls reported having no idea of what was happening to them when they began menstruating and pregnancy and childbirth complications are the second cause of death among 15 to 19-year olds does not increase sexual activity, sexual risk-taking behaviour, or STI/HIV infection rates. It also presents evidence showing that abstinence-only programmes fail to prevent early sexual initiation, or reduce the frequency of sex and number of partners among the young. The only thing produced by UNESCO is guidelines to assist educational policymakers. It's 139 pages. It reads almost identically to the guidelines that have been in place for the US Dept of Ed for decades. There is no enforcement. You can look through the guidelines in the link above and the worst thing you might find in the Age 5-8 category. (There are "age-appropriate" differences in the guidelines for ages 5-8, 9-12, 12-15, and 15-18+. For 5-8, here are the places where "touch" "touches" "touched" "touching" etc are mentioned. As a parent, I'd be concerned about which levels teach what, but I saw nothing in here that strikes me as dangerous. I learned about the gross forms of porneia at the Kingdom Hall and through Bible reading, even before my parents mentioned them, or I heard anything at school. But I think that publishing this set of guidelines and some expectation of consistency is good for parents to be able to mitigate "damage" where possible. But this is going to be true even of subjects that deal with history, religion, evolution, biology, etc., too. Learning objectives (5-8 years)I Key idea: There are healthy and unhealthy relationships Learners will be able to: ▶list characteristics of healthy and unhealthy relationships (knowledge); ▶define good touch and bad touch (knowledge); ▶perceive that there are healthy and unhealthy friendships (attitudinal); ▶develop and maintain healthy friendships (skill Learning objectives (5-8 years) Key idea: Everyone has the right to decide who can touch their body, where, and in what way Learners will be able to: ▶describe the meaning of ‘body rights’ (knowledge); ▶identify which parts of the body are private (knowledge); ▶recognize that everyone has ‘body rights’ (attitudinal); ▶demonstrate how to respond if someone is touching them in a way that makes them feel uncomfortable (e.g. say ‘no’, ‘go away’, and talk to a trusted adult) (skill); ▶identify and describe how they would talk to a parent/guardian or trusted adult if they are feeling uncomfortable about being touched (skill) Learning objectives (5-8 years) Key idea: People can show love for other people through touching and intimacy Learners will be able to: ▶state that people show love and care for other people in different ways, including kissing, hugging, touching, and sometimes through sexual behaviours (knowledge). Key idea: Children should understand what is and what is not appropriate touching Learners will be able to: ▶define ‘good touch’ and ‘bad touch’ (knowledge); ▶recognize that there are some ways of touching children that are bad (attitudinal); ▶demonstrate what to do if someone is touching them in a bad way (skill). Learning objectives (5-8 years) Key idea: There are healthy and unhealthy relationships Learners will be able to: ▶list characteristics of healthy and unhealthy relationships (knowledge); ▶define good touch and bad touch (knowledge); ▶perceive that there are healthy and unhealthy friendships (attitudinal); ▶develop and maintain healthy friendships (skill)

I noticed that even with all that quoting from Agenda 2030, you found absolutely nothing that supported any of the conspiratorial fear-mongering that is so prevalent all over the Internet. I'm glad you finally looked it over, however. In the past you said: "Just read the documents." So I did. I've learned not to give so much credence to propaganda and conspiracy theories. It reveals that there has been, not just a lot of conjecture, but a lot of outright lying from those who tried to make us believe that those conspiracies are actually to be found somewhere in the UN documents. The UN's version of the 2030 agenda is here: https://sustainabledevelopment.un.org/post2015/transformingourworld and it is a plan, basically from 2015, for countries that sign on, to set a good example over the next 15 years (from 2015) by resolving to eliminate poverty, and address many other types of injustice, along with pollution, climate issues, education, human rights, etc. They think they can manage to do good in all these areas by partnering with supportive governments, and other NGOs, and various other organizations which have also expressed optimism. Of course, we know that in spite of all the good it wants to do, the UN has little to no power. The World Economic Forum site you mentioned points to sites that show some of the SDG's (sustainable development goals) are so far off track that they are not realistically expected before the 2070's. I notice that you still see some of the goals as "bad" and some of the methods for trying to achieve them as "bad." I expect this old system in this old world to screw up almost any good goals and turn good into bad. But that is not the fault of the goals themselves. Many countries will set laws that say, for example: no more pouring of untreated sewage into a certain lake or river, or no more paying women less than men for the same job, or no more than 1 steer or 10 sheep per hectare of grazing land. But even if these laws are wonderful for people and the environment, there will always be people lobbying for a way to delay laws or make exceptions, because rising profits will always be more important in the short run, than good goals in the long run. And there's also ways that governments just get it all wrong. Look at the 20th century dust bowl days in the United States, or going after the wrong pests in China, or spraying carcinogenic pesticides everywhere. It's the way of the world. I notice, of course, that although you could find nothing in the UN documents that was "bad" you added comments throughout to make certain things seem bad. I should hope that an organization with the stated goal of promoting peace and security would "sound like they want to bring and security." The likelihood of overall success is practically nil, of course, but you think it's some sort of evil thing that they should want it? Why do you think peace and security is such a bad goal? You are supposed to be praying for governments to find ways to obtain peace and security. (1 Timothy 2:1, 2) . . .First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be made concerning all sorts of men, 2 concerning kings and all those who are in high positions, so that we may go on leading a calm and quiet life. . . Do you pray that those in high positions work for peace and security, so that at the very least we can continue to preach more freely, or even so that we can lead a peaceful life in this world?

Some of the subjects that came up under this topic have been moved to a new topic. Arauna didn't actually start that topic or name it, but this forum assigns a new topic to the person who made the earliest post in that topic, and the earliest one I moved there was hers.

A previous topic that had already gone on for about 40 pages was quickly turning into a place to discuss the many different things we see going on in 2020: Covid19 lockdown and the expectations for the near future because of it. Covid19 leading to food shortages, turned into a discussion about Christian food distribution (my fault) that turned into a discussion of who are Christ's brothers. and, as the usual end-times sub-topics: the UN and various claims regarding the UN, some of which seem conspiratorial. the "disgusting thing" (abomination of desolation) etc. Even after splitting off that discussion to a new "shorter" topic here, it's already 5 pages long, but that's still easier to navigate than 40 pages under the previous topic. This new topic will end up moving some of the posts by: @Arauna@TrueTomHarley@Anna@Witness@4Jah2me

So have I. And I will never say that there is no significance to the fact that a great war broke out just a few short generations ago, and that this war was historically significant. The problem is how we are using the scenario between Jesus and the disciples. We are pretending that Jesus said something he didn't really say. So for me, it's a matter of trying not to go beyond the things written, and to follow the counsel about paying attention to ourselves and our teaching. Jesus tells his Jewish disciples that the most significant event in all of Jewish history is going to occur: the great Temple will be utterly destroyed, never to be built again. Because this is such a great event, the disciples understand that this must be the great Parousia (royal visitation) he is talking about, and the great Synteleia of the world system. Synteleia means, basically: THE END OF ALL THINGS TOGETHER. Not just the conclusion leading up to the end, but the actual, final, destructive END. But we pretend that Jesus answered them by saying, in effect: Listen, disciples. If you really want to know how to determine when the end will come, then be on the lookout for for wars, reports of wars, earthquakes, pestilences, and food shortages. When you see all these things together, get ready, because you'll know that the END is very close. Instead Jesus said, in effect: [Listen disciples. You just asked for a warning sign so you would know just when this destructive end of all things has approached.] DO NOT BE MISLED!! You are going to hear about wars, but do not be misled: THE END IS NOT YET. There will be earthquakes, food shortages, and pestilence, but these things are not the END, they are a BEGINNING of pangs of distress. You are asking about a warning sign, but my Parousia will strike suddenly like lightning, it will come at a time you won't think to be it, like a thief in the night, like when Sodom was destroyed without warning. Like the sudden, surprise destruction on all those people in the days of Noah who didn't believe Noah until the day he went into the ark. By the time the "SIGN" appears, it will be too late to prepare, because that SIGN appears in the heavens after all these thingssoccur: [all these things that you asked about, i.e., the destruction of the temple.] (Matthew 24:29, 30) . . .after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. I think we need to discern the difference in those two ideas. Because we really do take those wars, etc., out of context to mean nearly the opposite of what Jesus appears to be saying. In either case, the end of these things would be coming upon their generation. Earlier Jesus had said that some of them would still be alive when the kingdom would be shown to them, and they would not finish their "rounds" preaching to the cities of Israel before the Son of Man arrived in his kingdom. And, disciples, even after Jesus died, ended up thinking that, therefore, John would not die off before Jesus returned in kingdom glory. (Some of these fulfillments had already happened when Jesus gave a glimpse at the "Transfiguration.") But it means that it was already obvious what the term "this generation" was thought to mean at the time: within the lifespan of many of those alive at the time. And true to Jesus' word, the walls of the temple did fall within 37 years or so, within the lifespan of many of those standing. Jesus didn't know the times or seasons of the actual, final parousia/synteleia. Neither the Son nor the angels knew. But he knew it had to be "after the tribulation of those days." That is, after the tribulation surrounding the event he told them about: the destruction of the temple and its walls. So, some of what I said above is interpretation. Without some interpretation here, we would have to say that the parousia/synteleia really was the temple destruction, and that this was the event so big as to never be repeated in history. But we know from John's letters, Revelation, and 1 & 2 Peter, and even Paul's letters, that we should interpret the actual parousia/synteleia to be future, something much bigger than the tribulation of those days.

Here's how you responded to that: Really? The reason you have never been able to locate any of these conspiratorial ideas in the UN documents where you claim they exist is because I approve of a centralized government and control of environment. I don't really think that the reason you can't find them is because I have beliefs you have misinterpreted. I think you haven't been able to locate them because they are simply not there. It's easy to get fooled by the claims of conspiratorialists, because they play on ideas related to apocalyptic fear-mongering scenarios that we can align with our own Witness beliefs about the Great Tribulation and Armageddon. Yes, I'm sure I'm blind to a lot of things. But I also think you won't look at the documents you make claims about, because you are probably afraid I might be right, and you will see that those ideas just aren't there. You have a lot invested in these beliefs, and the world looks worse and worse these days. One of these days you'll have to be right, at least in part, so why spoil it by looking up facts?

Yes. The disgusting thing, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, was first related to the time when Antiochus IV put Zeus in the temple, and was therefore also related even more horrifically to the final destruction of Jerusalem's temple when the "god" Rome encroached, especially from 66 to 70 CE. So the disgusting thing is related to false worship sitting down in the Temple of God. We already have a statement from Paul that says this lawless one was already at work in the first century, and was openly revealed when the one acting as a restraint was out of the way. We generally identify this as the apostasy that revealed itself so openly at the end of the first century when the apostles, who were acting as a restraint, died out. (2 Thessalonians 2:3-11) . . .Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness [sin,abomination] gets revealed, the son of destruction [desolation]. 4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time. 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, John also identified this apostasy as the "antichrist" and said there were already many "antichrists" at work. (1 John 2:18) . . .Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as YOU have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour. And we know that it was therefore the apostles and their associates acting as a restraint: (Acts 20:29) 29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, And of course, we know that the Temple of God is now the individuals making up the true Congregation of Christ's body: (1 Corinthians 3:16, 17) . . .Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that the spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, and you are that temple.

True. Partly true. By Valerian, I assume you mean Vespasian. He was sent by Nero in the spring of 67 to take over military operations, initially in Galilee. Nero's death was in the summer of 68, and three short-lived emperors tried to take over. Vespasian didn't return until a few days before 70 CE, taking over after having the last of those emperors executed on December 22, 69 CE. Vespasian didn't leave for Egypt to cut off the food supplies to Rome. Several Jews had turned to piracy, mostly out of Joppa, and interfered with commerce and navigation from Egypt to Phoenicia and Syria. Vespasian had to deal especially with the Jewish interference of grain supplies from Alexandria, Egypt to Rome. We will see, then. As you say, the UN would need to take more control. Conspiracies and fear-mongering over the UN are common. But you also, if I recall correctly, have never been able to locate any of these conspiratorial ideas in the UN documents where you claim they exist.

Not to repeat too much of what has already been said many times, but it has been a while so I'll answer. We got a great war in 1914 that killed more in a few years than several previous wars ever managed to kill in wars that lasted decades, or even hundreds of years. I have no problem with seeing 1914 as a very historic year for world war, and wars are often associated with pestilence and food shortages, just as they were within a few short years before and after the great war. Some great earthquakes, too, were notable less than 10 years prior to 1914, and less than 10 years after 1914. So I definitely agree that this was a great turning point in history, and I have no problem using this idea in the ministry. More people should be seeking Jehovah's kingdom due to such an historical turning point. But we should consider too that Jesus told his disciples when they asked him for a sign of the end, not to be misled by wars and reports of wars. So perhaps Satan wanted to fool people into accepting 1914 by leading the nations to a war that could mislead them into thinking they were seeing a sign. Secular history does admit in the Babylonian Chronicles a deportation as early as 627 BCE using the Watchtower's dates, which secular history identifies as 607 BCE. For you to say that this proves 607 means that you must be rejecting the 20 year offset that the Watchtower uses in order to place 607 as the 18th/19th year of Nebuchadnezzar when Jeremiah says that Jerusalem was burned and the temple destroyed and the Messianic line of kingship was interrupted. Otherwise, what "607" date are you referring to? You have obfuscated about this date for several years now. It's probably time you cleared things up about your own beliefs instead of just trying to find fault with others. What makes the SECULAR 607 date about a deportation before Nebuchadnezzar was even a king so interesting to you? But it was not seen by any Bible Student, Jehovah's Witness, or any reader of the Watchtower magazine, was it? We don't know of even one person who would admit to having discerned Jesus reign beginning in 1914. They didn't figure that out for another decade or more, as they still had Jesus' reign tied to 1874 and 1878. And Jesus' invisible presence wasn't discerned in 1914 either, as it was still officially kept as 1874 until about 1943/1944: *** ka chap. 11 pp. 209-210 par. 55 “Here Is the Bridegroom!” *** In the year 1943 the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society published the book “The Truth Shall Make You Free.” In its chapter 11, entitled “The Count of Time,” it did away with the insertion of 100 years into the period of the Judges and went according to the oldest and most authentic reading of Acts 13:20, and accepted the spelled-out numbers of the Hebrew Scriptures. This moved forward the end of six thousand years of man’s existence into the decade of the 1970’s. Naturally this did away with the year 1874 C.E. as the date of return of the Lord Jesus Christ and the beginning of his invisible presence or parousia. The millennium that was to be marked by the detaining of Satan the Devil enchained in the abyss and by the reign of the 144,000 joint heirs with Christ in heavenly glory was therefore yet in the future. What, then, about the parousia (presence) of Christ? Page 324 of the above book positively says: “The King’s presence or parousia began in 1914.” Also, in the Watchtower issue of July 15, 1949 (page 215, paragraph 22), the statement is made: “ . . . Messiah, the Son of man, came into Kingdom power A.D. 1914 and . . . this constitutes his second coming and the beginning of his second parousía or presence.” 1914 wasn't fully "discerned" until the 1940's, based on clarifications from 1943, 1944 and 1949. Up until then, they still believed they were already in the millennium, the thousand year reign, because the 6,000 years was still being "discerned" as having ended in 1872: *** ka chap. 11 p. 208 par. 51 “Here Is the Bridegroom!” *** . . . and the six thousand years of man’s existence on earth ended in 1872 C.E. (The Time Is at Hand, page 42) Then the allowance of two years before the entry of sin led to the year 1874 as the year in which six thousand years of human sin terminated and the seventh thousand years for the elimination of sin by Christ’s reign began. So neither his kingdom nor his presence were discerned by anyone in 1914, let alone these supposed millions who lived it. The only thing that might have been left was the supposed discernment that the Gentile Times had ended, but in order for that to work they had to completely change the meaning of the phrase "Gentile Times" so that it no longer meant that all nations would stop ruling and all non-Jewish governments would have completely collapsed within 12 months after 1914.

Yes. I know. We have been through this before. It's not new. And I think that the GB would only agree up to a point. In general, the GB now teaches that many more of the verses and teachings in the Greek Scriptures that we once only applied to the Anointed can now have just as much meaning for the "other sheep." And although Galatians 5 starts out as a discussion about those led by the spirit, the GB also understand that the "fruits" of that spirit are for all of us to cultivate. But the GB would likely be very uncomfortable with a view that all of us are brothers (of Christ), and all of us should be led by the spirit. They would likely agree with the general point, but not the way I worded it. Again, ALL Christians had to be in union with Christ. (John 15:4-10) . . .Remain in union with me, and I will remain in union with you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you unless you remain in union with me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever remains in union with me and I in union with him, this one bears much fruit; for apart from me you can do nothing at all. 6 If anyone does not remain in union with me, he is thrown out like a branch and dries up. And men gather those branches and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you remain in union with me and my sayings remain in you, ask whatever you wish and it will take place for you. 8 My Father is glorified in this, that you keep bearing much fruit and prove yourselves my disciples. 9 Just as the Father has loved me, so I have loved you; remain in my love. 10 If you observe my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have observed the commandments of the Father and remain in his love. It includes a wide variety of ministries: (Romans 12:3-8) . . .each one as God has given to him a measure of faith. 4 For just as we have in one body many members, but the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, although many, are one body in union with Christ, but individually we are members belonging to one another. 6 Since, then, we have gifts that differ according to the undeserved kindness given to us, if it is of prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or if it is a ministry, let us be at this ministry; or the one who teaches, let him be at his teaching; 8 or the one who encourages, let him give encouragement; the one who distributes, let him do it liberally; the one who presides, let him do it diligently; the one who shows mercy, let him do it cheerfully. The sanctification is through the ransom, and the ransom is for all: (1 Corinthians 1:28-30) . . .and God chose the insignificant things of the world and the things looked down on, the things that are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 so that no one might boast in the sight of God. 30 But it is due to him that you are in union with Christ Jesus, who has become to us wisdom from God, also righteousness and sanctification and release by ransom, All Christians are shown undeserved kindness, not because there are any who are so special that they deserve to be made holy, or sanctified. It's just that they are washed clean to have an undeserved, but acceptable "holy" standing before God so that we can approach Jehovah in prayer. No one is actually a special, righteous, anointed person who is a "TRUE anointed" who will be above their brothers as a kind of "leader" to follow. (1 Corinthians 16:23, 24) 23 May the undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus be with you. 24 May my love be with all of you in union with Christ Jesus. (2 Corinthians 5:16-19) . . .So from now on we know no man from a fleshly viewpoint. Even if we once knew Christ according to the flesh, we certainly no longer know him in that way. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in union with Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away; look! new things have come into existence. 18 But all things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of the reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was by means of Christ reconciling a world to himself, not counting their offenses against them, and he entrusted to us the message of the reconciliation. Revelation says this about the "great crowd:" (Revelation 7:9-17) . . .After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.” ... And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”

When the scriptures mention giving to the holy ones, the term actually refers to all fellow Christians. It's true that the expression could also have a special reference to the apostles and brothers in Jerusalem during Paul's day, but Paul used it more often to mean ALL Christians. It's the same as saying "you who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus." And even though it has a special additional meaning to those who know they are chosen for a heavenly hope, it was also demanded of the pre-Christian Jews that they "must be holy as Jehovah is holy." (Leviticus 11:45) . . .For I am Jehovah, who is leading you up out of the land of Egypt to prove myself God to you, and you must be holy, because I am holy. So it is just as appropriate for those of the other sheep or great crowd who do not expect a heavenly hope. (Romans 1:7) 7 to all those who are in Rome as God’s beloved ones, called to be holy ones:. . . (Romans 12:13) . . .Share with the holy ones according to their needs. Follow the course of hospitality. (Romans 16:1, 2) . . .I am introducing to you Phoeʹbe, our sister, who is a minister of the congregation that is in Cenʹchre·ae, 2 so that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the holy ones and give her whatever help she may need, . . . (Romans 16:15, 16) . . .Greet Phi·lolʹo·gus and Julia, Neʹreus and his sister, and O·lymʹpas, and all the holy ones with them. 16 Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the congregations of the Christ greet you. (1 Corinthians 1:2) . . .to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, together with all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours: (1 Corinthians 14:33) . . .As in all the congregations of the holy ones, (2 Corinthians 1:1) . . .Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through God’s will, and Timothy our brother, to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, including all the holy ones who are in all A·chaʹia: (Ephesians 1:1) . . .Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through God’s will, to the holy ones who are in Ephʹe·sus and are faithful in union with Christ Jesus: (Ephesians 1:15, 16) . . .That is why I also, since I have heard of the faith that you have in the Lord Jesus and the love that you demonstrate toward all the holy ones, 16 never stop giving thanks for you. . . . (Ephesians 4:11-13) . . .And he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers, 12 with a view to the readjustment of the holy ones, for ministerial work, to build up the body of the Christ, 13 until we all attain to the oneness of the faith. . . (Philippians 1:1) . . .Paul and Timothy, slaves of Christ Jesus, to all the holy ones in union with Christ Jesus who are in Phi·lipʹpi, along with overseers and ministerial servants: (Philippians 4:21, 22) . . .Give my greetings to every holy one in union with Christ Jesus. The brothers who are with me send you their greetings. 22 All the holy ones, but especially those of the household of Caesar, send you their greetings. (Ephesians 1:4) . . .as he chose us to be in union with him before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and unblemished before him in love. When the scriptures mention Christ's brothers, it is also referring to all fellow Christians: (Matthew 23:8) . . .But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your Teacher, and all of you are brothers. (Matthew 5:45-48) . . .so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, . . . 47 And if you greet your brothers only, what extraordinary thing are you doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? (Matthew 12:47-50) . . .So someone said to him: “Look! Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak to you.” 48 In reply he said to the one who spoke to him: “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 And extending his hand toward his disciples, he said: “Look! My mother and my brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of my Father who is in heaven, that one is my brother and sister and mother.” It is just as important for persons of the great crowd to consider themselves "sons of the Kingdom." We are all God's children, and therefore Christ's brothers. (Acts 17:28, 29) . . . For by him we have life and move and exist, even as some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also his children.’ 29 “Therefore, since we are the children of God, we should not think that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, like something sculptured by the art and design of humans. (Romans 8:12-15) . . .So, then, brothers, we are under obligation, not to the flesh to live according to the flesh; 13 for if you live according to the flesh, you are sure to die; but if you put the practices of the body to death by the spirit, you will live. 14 For all who are led by God’s spirit are indeed God’s sons. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” According to Paul, we are either led by the flesh or led by God's spirit. This is why we pray to God as "Our Father, in heaven. . . " (Galatians 3:26-29) . . .You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring, heirs with reference to a promise. We are still heirs with reference to a promise, even if that promise is considered to be paradise on earth instead of heaven. We are either slaves or sons. The sons of the kingdom produce "fruits of the spirit" instead of "fruits of the flesh." Should we think that the following somehow doesn't apply to all Christians? (Galatians 5:19-25) . . .Now the works of the flesh are plainly seen, and they are sexual immorality, uncleanness, brazen conduct, 20 idolatry, spiritism, hostility, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, dissensions, divisions, sects, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and things like these. I am forewarning you about these things, the same way I already warned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom. 22 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed to the stake the flesh together with its passions and desires. 25 If we are living by spirit, let us also go on walking orderly by spirit.

Wouldn't it be interesting to see how true Christians might end up distinguishing themselves by the extent to which we give actual food even to our enemies, motivated by our love for Jehovah and Jesus Christ, and our true admiration of a kingdom based on Biblical principles: (Matthew 14:14-16) . . .When he came ashore, he saw a large crowd, and he felt pity for them, and he cured their sick ones. 15 But when evening fell, his disciples came to him and said: “The place is isolated and the hour is already late; send the crowds away, so that they may go into the villages and buy themselves food.” 16 However, Jesus said to them: “They do not have to leave; you give them something to eat.” (Matthew 24:45) 45 “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? (Acts 2:43-47) . . .. 44 All those who became believers were together and had everything in common, 45 and they were selling their possessions and properties and distributing the proceeds to all, according to what each one needed. 46 And day after day they were in constant attendance in the temple with a united purpose, and they took their meals in different homes and shared their food with great rejoicing and sincerity of heart, 47 praising God and finding favor with all the people.. . . (Acts 6:1-3) . . .Now in those days when the disciples were increasing, the Greek-speaking Jews began complaining against the Hebrew-speaking Jews, because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution. 2 So the Twelve called the multitude of the disciples together and said: “It is not right for us to leave the word of God to distribute food to tables. 3 So, brothers, select for yourselves seven reputable men from among you, full of spirit and wisdom, that we may appoint them over this necessary matter; (James 2:14-17) . . .Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? 15 If any brothers or sisters are lacking clothing and enough food for the day, 16 yet one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but you do not give them what they need for their body, of what benefit is it? 17 So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead. (Romans 12:20) 20 But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; . . . (1 Timothy 5:8) 8 Certainly if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith. Spiritual food and works are still more important in the long run, but I think that sometimes we read verses like Hebrews 10:24, and others, and forget that these referred to material giving: (Hebrews 10:24) And let us consider one another so as to incite to love and fine works. (Galatians 6:10) . . .So, then, as long as we have the opportunity, let us work what is good toward all, but especially toward those related to us in the faith. (Acts 9:36-39) . . .“Dorʹcas.” She abounded in good deeds and gifts of mercy that she was making. . . . and all the widows presented themselves to him, weeping and showing many garments and robes that Dorʹcas had made while she was with them. (Titus 3:8) 8 These words are trustworthy, and I want you to keep stressing these matters, so that those who have believed God may keep their minds focused on maintaining fine works. These things are fine and beneficial to men. (1 Timothy 2:10) 10 but in the way that is proper for women professing devotion to God, namely, through good works. (1 Timothy 5:9, 10) 9 A widow is to be put on the list if she is not less than 60 years old, was the wife of one husband, 10 having a reputation for fine works, if she raised children, if she practiced hospitality, if she washed the feet of holy ones, if she assisted the afflicted, if she devoted herself to every good work. (1 Timothy 6:17-19) . . .Instruct those who are rich in the present system of things not to be arrogant, and to place their hope, not on uncertain riches, but on God, who richly provides us with all the things we enjoy. 18 Tell them to work at good, to be rich in fine works, to be generous, ready to share, 19 safely treasuring up for themselves a fine foundation for the future, so that they may get a firm hold on the real life. (Matthew 25:36-40) . . .’ 37 Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

Not the usual Hebrew word for "law" but a late word borrowed from Persian, which is why they say it only shows up in Daniel and Esther (meaning law or custom). It did not come to mean ceremony/ritual until even later. In MODERN Hebrew, not Biblical Hebrew, is it also used to describe someone who is religious. From what I can tell, this is not the same word "dat" which is related to data/datum. That word "dat" is from the word "give" implying "thing" as it to "give a thing" or "any given thing." So "dat" it's really closer to the word "that" when "that" refers to a "thing."

A couple of other indications that they were not discerning a sign in 1914, is that Rutherford took the 40-year harvest from 1874-1914, and shifted it to 1878-1918, bypassing the significance of 1914. 1914 hadn't even shown anything significant yet with respect to the Gentile Times, either, which is why by January 1, 1916, the Watchtower had shifted the End of the Gentile Times to 1915: Also, it wasn't until May 1922, that the Watchtower first reported on the idea that Russell had announced on October 1, 1914 that "The Gentile Times have ended!" It took nearly 8 years before anyone thought this story was important. And since then the story has been told as happening on October 4, 1914 and and October 2, 1914.

*** Watchtower, October 1, 1930, p.291 *** Understanding that the ''day of Christ'' began when Jesus came to the temple of God, in 1918, it appears that the rebellion must precede that day. The beginning of the falling away or rebellion against God's organization would also mark the beginning of the disclosure of the ''man of sin'', even though none of God's children then on earth understood the matter. The Revelation which God gave to Jesus Christ to show to his "servant" began to be disclosed particularly from 1914 forward, but none of God's children on earth had an understanding thereof for fifteen years or more thereafter. They did see the evidence of things coming to pass which mark a fulfilment of Revelation, but they did not discern the meaning thereof. Likewise the faithful have for some years seen the manifestation of lawlessness and now begin to discern the meaning of the term the "man of sin". *** end of quote *** *** Watchtower, November 1, 1931, p. 376 *** Who on earth understood prior to 1918 that Zion is God's organization and gives birth to the kingdom and to her children? The fact that no one on earth did so understand prior to the Lord's coming to his temple [in 1918] is proof that it was not God's due time for them to understand. Who understood prior thereto about Satan's organization, the battle in heaven, and the casting of Satan out of heaven? Manifestly no one could understand these things until the temple of God was open. *** end of quote *** These are the most direct quotes to start from. Once this context is understood, you can find another ten or so quotes that mean the same thing as "they did not discern" but without using the exact words. It becomes obvious that they did not discern when they "dug in their heels" at hanging on to 1874. 1874 was still officially the "discerned" start of Christ's presence/parousia, and this was repeated often from 1915 and even into the 1930's. (Officially dropped in 1943/1944.) Basically, Jesus presence began in 1874, and his coming/advent had also been dated to 1874, but Rutherford often spoke of Jesus coming (erchomai) in 1918. And the End of the Gentile Times could only be proven by events taking place in Palestine, including the resurrection of the ancient worthies like Abraham in 1914. Since the meaning of "Gentile Times" didn't pan out, the meaning was finally officially changed around 1930/1931. The September 1, 1930 Watchtower issue says this on pages 201, 202: "With the beginning of the second presence of the Lord, approximately A. D. 1875, there was a change in the work. . . . The evidence seems quite conclusive that the gathering of these members of the body into the temple is almost complete, if not entirely so. The evidence shows that a great separating work has been going on since 1918 and that probably that separating work is not entirely completed, . . . . The October 15, 1930 Watchtower, p.308 said: "The second advent of the Lord Jesus Christ dates from about A. D. 1875," The idea was barely mentioned for a couple of years, and then in the June 1, 1933 Watchtower (p.174), it goes back to 1874, again: "The second and invisible presence of Christ dates from about eighteen hundred and seventy-four." *** Watch Tower, October 1, 1903 [Reprints p. 3249] *** "It will be vain for Zionists to hope to establish an independent government in Palestine.... Palestine will be 'trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be filled full'—viz., October, 1914, A.D. By that time the heavenly kingdom will be in power and the ancient worthies—Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and all the holy prophets—will be resurrected and constitute the earthly representatives of the spiritual and invisible kingdom of Christ and his Gospel church." *** end of quote *** [I'm currently travelling and accessing my computer remotely, so I mostly grabbed the above from things written in a 2016 conversation on this forum with Outta Here, Holly W, you, Allen S, etc.]

China's pilot program is already in 4 major cities, and is as far along as Sweden's digital currency pilot program. Sweden's was designed in 2019, and is now mid-pilot (running from 2/2020 to 2/2021. China's pilot program affects a much larger economy, and they hope to have it fully available by the 2022 Winter Olympic Games in Beijing. By 2018, 83% of all China's retail monetary transactions were already handled through mobile phones/devices. Only 17% by cash or bank (credit) cards. China especially wanted to do this, in 2019, in response to Facebook's Libra currency, since WeChat Pay (a lot like Apple Wallet combined with Facebook Libra) and Alipay (associated with China's version of "Amazon") both have a scalable technology infrastructure. I noticed that eBay, btw, just this month transferred over to their own internal "digital" bank, and dropped PayPal as their transaction bank. But the American-based versions are still more like credit-card companies rather than a central government bank, like Sweden and China.

True. I wanted to explain that same weakness, but the post would have been longer. The main point is about the implied meaning of anyone who says to anyone else that we aren't just in the last period of time, but we are in the last part of that last period of time. I could have also used the idea of a sports announcer recalling a previous sports play, saying something about it happening not just in the final period of play, but the final part of that final period. If I had a minute I'd make it about Manchester United and Brighton. But I think you already get it. Tennis matches are made up of games, which make up a set, and several sets make up a match. Let's say a recent tennis match announcer had said that Thiem's limp didn't really show up until the last "set" of the match with Zverev, and the announcer claimed that it was actually in the "last part of that last set." This would be misleading if it had actually shown up any time in the first half of that last set. And it wouldn't be misleading only if we wanted to be misled. It's just plain misleading, whether it was said about a game, a set, or a match.

That's pretty simple to answer, thanks for asking. Let's say I owed you $100.00, which you only would loan me because I promised to pay you back "within days." I told you that I would pay you back within days saying, "... because these are now the last days before I finally will get my paycheck." But then, let's say, it went on for a few more weeks and then a whole month. You'd probably remind me about that time when I said we were already in the last days before I would get my paycheck. But my response to you is, "Don't worry! We are now in the final part, the last days of those last days before I get my paycheck." But, one more month goes by and you still don't have your money. They say that a verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on. But, assuming both parties stipulate to exactly what was said above, and both parties are fluent in English, you could go to a small claims court and easily show a breach of promise because the expression "final part of those last days" strongly implies that we are at least in the last half (past the midpoint) of those last days before the promise should be fulfilled. If you, the party who gave the loan, had waited a month, before being told "we are now in the final part, the last days of the those last days" then you should reasonably expect that it would not be another full month of waiting. In fact, you would say that I was misleading you. And I couldn't say, as @Outta Here indicated, that you were only misled because you wanted to be misled. Quite the opposite; it would mislead those who don't want to be misled. So that brings us to the obvious implication of saying the last days started in 1914 and then saying, in 1967, that we are already in the final part of those last days. It had already been 53 years, in 1967. And it has also been 53 years since 1967. So apparently we were not even in the final half of those last days, in spite of being told something much more specific about where we were in that last part of those last days. In fact, we were told, in 1967, that we were in the last part of the last one-seventh of the last days. (One could even say that this should mean we were likely in the last one-fourteenth of the last days since 1914.) But it's completely forgivable, of course, because they weren't claiming they knew for sure, it's just what they were very sure of, and it didn't make sense any other way - based on the length of the generation since 1914, and several ominous factors about the signs of the times. There was also the sureness of others, and this was probably contagious (in a good way) while some brothers in Writing were even "prophesying" that young people would never get old in this system, and never even have the time to start a career, and probably didn't even have time to get a 4-year college degree. *** Awake! 1969 May 22 p.15 *** "If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years. . . Therefore, as a young person, you will never fulfill any career that this system offers. If you are in high school and thinking about a college education, it means at least four, perhaps even six or eight more years to graduate into a specialized career. But where will this system of things be by that time? It will be well on the way toward its finish, if not actually gone!" In fact, our Circuit Overseer in 1967-70 (Kent Karras) gave a very rousing talk about the 1967 Watchtower quoted above, and applied it to Joshua encircling the walls of Jericho for 6 days, and how in this final period (the "seventh") we should try to cover our territory more often than we ever did before. *** it-2 p. 35 Jericho *** . . . once a day for six days the Israelite military force went forth, followed by seven priests continually blowing the horns, behind whom were the priests carrying the Ark, and finally the rear guard—all marching around Jericho. But on the seventh day they marched around the city seven times. At the blowing of the horns on the final march around Jericho, the people shouted a great war cry, and the city’s walls began to fall flat. According to my notes, the idea was repeated at the Divine Victory! conventions in 1973, which also included the Joshua/Jericho drama.

I'm afraid you are misunderstanding completely. @Outta Here said: I'm merely showing you how what he is saying is correct. So what you are quoting is a very true statement. I'm not saying I believe the last days started on October 4, 1914, I just picked that date because that's pretty close to the day that the Watchtower claims the last days must have started. If they did start then, you could say that everyone since that date has been living in the last part of the last days. *** w14 7/15 p. 30 par. 9 “You Will Be Witnesses of Me” *** That happened in October 1914, marking the beginning of “the last days” of Satan’s wicked system. *** yb75 p. 138 Part 2—United States of America *** around October 4/5, 1914 C.E. The people needed to know that through the Messianic kingdom then established Jehovah was ruling as king, *** dp chap. 6 p. 97 par. 28 Unraveling the Mystery of the Great Tree *** Thus, the “seven times,” or 2,520 years, ended by Tishri 15, or October 4/5, 1914 C.E. *** po chap. 14 p. 177 par. 19 Triumph for the “Eternal Purpose” *** So they would end about that time of the year in 1914 C.E., or about October 4/5, 1914. *** ka chap. 12 p. 230 par. 40 Increasing the King’s Belongings *** So the end of those Gentile Times about October 4/5 of 1914 should logically witness a reversal of the situation of such long standing. It was therefore not without significance that October 4/5, 1914, found the Gentile nations in trouble, already for two months embroiled in the first world war of human history. *** kj chap. 19 p. 352 par. 7 Defeat Awaits Attack by Nations under Gog *** they were fulfilled around October 4/5 of the year 1914 C.E. Therefore, the following statement is also very true: And so is this one:

I think most people in the West don't realize that this kind of projection about surveillance and "social credit scores" is exaggerated because the West would love to push their own surveillance and social credit score agenda, and need to prepare and distract Western citizens by pretending it is already worse in China. Also, there is a prejudiced Western mindset that can't understand that most Chinese people don't prize "freedom in a Western way" in the way most of us might expect. For most Chinese, Western freedoms don't mean as much as we think they do. They are not clamoring for their Internet to include more porn, and more corporate controls, and more Western resources. Having been a poor country, long run by imperialist rulers, it is sufficient freedom to live under a government that brings a much higher percentage of people out of poverty, and gives civil rights to more workers, and provides education and health care even to those millions still under the poverty line. Perhaps they should, but most don't blame their government for past mismanagement and mistakes. Probably because most see that their government has more interest in them as individuals. I know that idea probably makes your blood boil, but I am saying it because, in spite of your claims to the contrary, there are thousands of Chinese and foreign journalists taking polls of Chinese persons both inside and outside of China all the time. And these journalist are often completely against the CCP and are completely flummoxed that the Chinese people overwhelmingly support the CCP, and choose it. This goes for a large share of people who have left China, and is admitted even by ex-pats who left because they personally didn't want to live under the CCP. There are also thousands of videos made by Chinese persons in China that speak out against things they don't like, in Chinese, and they even show themselves involved in protests against government policies. So obviously there is nothing "perfect" about CCP. But the West seems never able to understand a majority of a population choosing a communist or socialist government, because that would make communism and socialism a democratic choice. (Of course, in many Western countries, the goal of the "democracy" is to make sure that the wishes of the majority are subverted by commercialism, propaganda, voter suppression, voter depression, etc.) Also, these "social credit score" scares are mostly hoaxes. Although, I'm sure there is some truth there, too. There might be a fear that China will implement a "credit score" system like the United States and other Western countries. There seems to be some fears that China will copy the United States, and this will result in mass abuse, as when US credit and credit scoring companies find ways to sell data without permission, use credit to "spy" for law enforcement and corporations. And perhaps even find ways to cover up mass "data breaches" of the customer data of almost all credit holders in the United States.

I already suggested that the riots in America are pure subversion. But when people begin to smell a rat, as I did, I tried to identify where the subversion was coming from. Follow the money. Look at how similar riots have been incited elsewhere and who was behind them and for what purpose, and which powers-that-be took which sides. Look at the probable versions of an end game. I see a lot of persons on Twitter, FB and YouTube merely giving up on their own logic, and deciding they should contradict their own evidence, and claim that it must therefore be a "Maoist" revolution.