JW Insider

22 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I forwarded a Joe Rogan interview with Dr. McCullough to HQ,

It’s amazing how people like Joe Rogan have become better than most modern journalists. I’d listen to him more but his show is too long for me and I need a summary first.  I met Dr Peter McCullough in Tampa when he was staying directly across from my wife and I in our hotel room. My son and I talked to him in the lobby briefly. I am not quite as impressed with him now that he has tried some questionable methods to turn his own work into a money-making machine. But Rogan and McCullough were both very good sources about Covid. 

I am more and more impressed with Tucker on the majority of his current shows: Putin, covid, exposing the idiocy of Christian Zionist supporters, etc  He is going where no man with his popularity has gone before.

Alexander Mercurion is another example of the best news commentary on the Ukraine war but he is too detailed and will give a two hour program on the day's battles and predictions and comment on both sides of the news reports. You get a much better sense of who is doing more spinning and who is doing more straightforward reporting. It's useful, or at least interesting, but who can give 10 hours a week?

Scott Ritter does well with shorter summaries on shows with Danny Haiphong for example. But his own super-pro-Russian biases come through too often. 

There are a couple of excellent resources for Gaza-Israel reporting from people who have lived and worked in both Palestine and Israel. But people tend to defend the indefensible even if they are generally giving correct info. They try to read excuses into bad actions by Hamas. Scott Ritter does this too. 

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Journalists who go rogue often do it for me.

https://www.thefp.com/p/npr-editor-how-npr-lost-americas-trust

The link was excellent. I remember my parents going to pbs and npr but only after Walter Cronkite was no longer THE source. In those days I trusted the NYT the way my doctors still trust the Lancet or the BMJ. 

Rogue reporters have explained a lot about how we were fooled for so long. Tucker Carlson is often the new best source  on several topics and has ditched much or most of his prior ideological baggage from 4 or 5 years ago. 

Clayton Morris from “Redacted,” also a former Fox News commentator, still carries more of that baggage than Tucker I think. I like that Clayton’s wife, Natalie Morris, raised as a Jehovah’s Witness, is consistently anti-war. anti-bigotry, and anti-woke, and neutral where she can be. But for some topics they are spot on. For that matter Fox itself is often the best of the bunch for being less inclined to be influenced by current State propaganda. 

My overall point is that most Witnesses I know in the United States are very political and don't even know it. Often much more political than their neighbors who vote. There are certain limits to what we will say about our political views, but I think we don't recognize that those political views often come out inadvertently in other ways.

In fact, I've seen strong political views among Witnesses who only use the line "we don't take sides in politics" when they wish to shut down an argument they disagree with.

My parents and many relatives were of the type that said they wouldn't be fooled by all the lies and exaggerations from MS-NBC supposedly on the "progressive left." Nor the lies and exaggerations from FOX News on the supposedly "conservative right." But that didn't stop them from being fooled by thinking that CNN was not mostly "state-sponsored media" that would cherry-pick stories now and then to keep up the ruse that they weren't. As long as they continued to support corporate sponsors, including "Big Pharma" and "Big Military Industrial Complex," it was clear what side they were going to take. And although Trump was golden to all networks for his ability to spout controversy, one of his biggest sins for CNN was the fact that he went 4 years without getting the USA involved in any new wars. 

We were watching CNN once, not on purpose, and although many segments were introduced with "Brought to you by Pfizer" one was introduced "Brought to you by McDonnell-Douglas." As if any of us watching were about to go out and buy McDonnell-Douglas fighter jets and missiles for accessories. Of course, even the segments brought to you by Pfizer weren't really for any of us to be swayed in our pharmacy choices, either. As with all corporate media, those ads are really just payments to CNN; they are all just a way for corporations to PAY (bribe) the news writers and commentators to realize on which side their bread is buttered. They are merely buying influence.

----

All this was probably just my own rationale to excuse my own tendency to throw in opinions about politics, politicians, and the mainstream corporate media. There are no easy answers to how someone should go about getting their news, or how to feed their own opinions. But I would be happy to hear about the various sources people use when trying to find the "truth" about various world events. 

Here was the general conversation, skipping a part where I had just explained how 30,000 Palestinians, largely women and children, had been killed, and the majority of major news outlets were still equivocating about whether Israel had gone too far. But when half-a-dozen mostly "white" aid workers were killed, suddenly Nancy Pelosi (friend of the aid organization founder), Joe Scarborough, Elizabeth Warren, and a bunch of others turn on a dime to stop giving Israel a free pass -- embarrassing their own man Biden. 

THEM: Well, anyway, we don't take sides about literal Israel, and we don't discuss political sides of who supports whom.

ME: But that last part is just information, even history.

THEM: History is one thing but the Bible says don't speak against the King. What's that it says in Ecclesiastes?

(Ecclesiastes 10:20) . . .Even in your thoughts, do not curse the king, and do not curse the rich in your bedroom; for a bird may convey the sound, or a creature with wings may repeat what was said.

ME: Yeah. That's where we get the expression: "a little birdie told me." Basically, it means that someone on Twitter will turn you in. Or all the government agencies will be listening in on Twitter.  

THEM: Very funny. You mean "X."

ME: Yeah, but they still call them "tweets."

THEM: But still we don't take sides, we don't even say anything against any ruler, whether he's good or bad. We only pray that they make decisions that are good for us. 

ME: I don't think it's wrong to say something against a ruler. Don't you think Hitler was a bad ruler?

THEM: But he's not a king now is he? He's dead.

ME: I mean even when he was alive.

THEM: Well, of course, because he was attacking Jehovah's people.

ME: But it would have been wrong to say he was bad while he was attacking millions of Jews?

THEM: [changing subject] But look how respectful Paul was talking to Felix, he never said a word against him.

ME: Maybe not, but Luke tells us he was probably looking for a bribe. That's pretty negative.

ME: continuing . . . And Jesus called Herod a fox.

THEM: Well maybe he was "foxy" -- "crafty" not always a bad thing.

ME: You don't believe that . . . and even if it was a good thing, then Jesus was taking sides.

THEM: Anyway . . . it's wrong.

The conversation went like this:

ME: I'm just now seeing the new article on the front of jw.org, about whether Bible prophecy points to literal Israel. That seems to be on everyone's mind.

THEM: Absolutely. One of my studies just asked that question and I went through the usual scriptures, especially Galatians  6. I hadn't seen the article yet. I wish I had.

ME: Yes, the article uses Matthew 23:37 "your house is abandoned to you" and Galatians 6, and Romans 11.

THEM: I think I used Romans 11, too. 

ME: I just noticed that the article says one thing that might be confusing though. “A dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, and in this manner all Israel will be saved.” (Romans 11:25, 26) . . . By the expression “all Israel,” Paul meant all of spiritual Israel.

ME: continuing . . . Actually, I don't think that will make sense to most people though. I mean, ultimately, yes, it's spiritual Israel that is saved. We know that from Galatians 6, but in this context people are going to notice that Paul actually was speaking about the two olive trees and the LITERAL Gentiles getting grafted into the tree representing LITERAL Israel. 

THEM: But it means all of spiritual Israel will be saved.

ME: That's the only way it works out in the long run, yes. But doesn't it make more sense that as many of literal Israel as possible get saved because it's these people of the nations who now have Jehovah's blessing, and this makes some of natural Israel jealous? And that helps lead to the salvation of as many natural Israelites as possible. (Romans 11:11)

etc., etc.

Who is right on this point is not important here, it's the next part of the conversation. Next post . . . 

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I always learned that you don't take sides in politics. In our family, this meant that you also don't discuss politics. Discussing it inevitably turns to offering opinions that favor one ideological side over another. But in a recent topic on the forum, several other JWs and/or those who have been associated with JWs brought up issues that appeared to take sides for or against the two major U.S. presidential candidates, as of April 2024. As factual commentary, this doesn't bother me in the slightest. In fact, if one favors one candidate over the other, this doesn't bother me either.

But I just had a serious discussion about our (JW) view of politics with an 86-year old Witness, who thinks just like my own family always had. It started with the current jw.org front page article on:

Does Bible Prophecy Point to the Modern State of Israel?

When you read the article you also get pointed to other articles:

Will Armageddon Begin in Israel?—What Does the Bible Say?

Are Jehovah’s Witnesses Zionists?

If you read more and go to specific links, you can also find articles on Human Rights Organizations, Russia and the European Court, etc.

Taganrog LRO and Others v. Russia

Russia Withdraws From the European Court

Or even end up linked to a mildly amusing article such as:

Who Is to Blame—Russia or the Tourist?

But the conversation, next post, made me think of our general stance on political discussion.

On 4/10/2024 at 1:00 PM, JW Insider said:

I was just in Patterson to see the Bible Village “Museum” tour. It was excellent but too short. They also have a “legally establishing the good news” tour/museum and a Gilead school historical tour which now covers the other schools more extensively than before. 

The last time I was here, they were more ambiguous about taking pictures and sharing them with friends, so I literally took a picture of just about everything and I even posted a set of pictures here. But this time they give stricter unambiguous instructions about the personal and family use of pictures taken, even when you can take a still picture vs a video. And the instruction is now explicitly that they cannot be shared on any social media platform. Sorry.

The 4 "museums" at Warwick are still about the same as before. With a few updates and a few older things cut out. The Bible museum is still the best. Probably the best of its kind anywhere. There is a separate segment on the use of the Divine Name in Bible translations, and it's very good.

There are several bits of interactive equipment that were working perfectly in 2018 and 2019 but are now giving trouble. For example, touchscreens that take your input about all kinds of things, such as whether you have worked on a WTS construction project, or which book you studied in preparation for baptism [e.g., Let God Be True, What Does the Bible Really Teach, Truth that Leads to Eternal Life, Paradise ...Regained, etc.] and then it gives statistics on many of these things for everyone to see. [e.g. 68% of all visitors this week have worked on a WTS construction project, etc.]

One thing that bothered me a bit was the reduction of material in a special "Watchtower History" museum that had a lot of pre-1919 information about the persecution mostly starting with the 1917 Finished Mystery book. They changed the name and now start it mostly in 1919. And then cut out a large percentage of interesting stuff. 

Also, they have the big wall-sized "Chart of the Ages" in one of the rooms highlighting Russell's early work. And another wall-sized chart called "Bible Chronology" that Russell's early followers also used in their meeting places. Those charts have the dates on them -- even if some of those dates appear to be embarrassing today.

But now there is a new "Chart of the Ages" I have never seen before in the Patterson museum on a similar historical subject but it seems like the dates have been removed. The chart is still titled "CHART OF THE AGES" and the museum label below it says:

How was the training provided [in Russell's time]? The "Chart of the Ages" was used as the primary basis for practice talks. 

It's evidently a wall sized blow-up of a page from one of the publications, because it still has the pictures of the pyramids on it, but on the chart itself, in says in fine print (on the side):

"For Explanation see The Plan of the Ages published by Bible and Tract Soc'y, Brooklyn N.Y."

Also odd that they left out the word "Watchtower," just Bible and Tract Society. I could be wrong, but it looks like it was edited to remove the embarrassing dates that are on the large one at Warwick.

If I remember, I'll look it up unless someone here already knows if there was a "generic" chart of the ages. 

2 hours ago, George88 said:

All the brothers need to do is look to the past. Genesis 4:3-5.

I can see how some of them might start feeling "angry," but I doubt any of them would feel "dejected."

I'll go to the mid-week meeting here tonight. Last one was attended by Brother Tony Morris III, Sister Sydlik the First, Brothers Ken Cook and Bill Malenfant. Maybe I could get them all into the same committee meeting with me if I answer a question inappropriately. LOL. No chance for Morris, I guess. I would only want Sister Sydlik there because she must know what her husband really thought about the WTS explanations of Daniel's 1260, 1290, 1335 and 2300 days. And they didn't disfellowship him for questioning.

6 minutes ago, George88 said:

Have you ever considered debating 587 with the brothers at Bethel as assertively as you do here?

lol. Why do you think I’m attracting attention to this forum through their internet network right after making a donation?

About two more weeks and the lake will be gorgeous with greenery all around again. The second picture is my old IBM stomping grounds. The third is back in the far corner of the lobby where my attempts at hacking are out of the limelight. 

The brothers and sisters who have their part in the Bible village museum try to stay in character as if they are in a convention drama even if you ask them a question. They don’t have to of course but some of them have fun with it. One sister doing basket weaving and dyeing yarn for a loom asked me where I was from. I told her New York via California and Missouri and she wasn’t sure if she had heard of such far away places. 

It seems so odd to me that literally about 60% of the male commuter Bethelites have beards. And almost half the regular Bethelites I’ve seen so far. Young and old alike. Even some who appear to be only 16 years old. They are all over 18 of course but they look so much younger now that I am 66. 

9 minutes ago, George88 said:

Does this mean you are going to share the password with your friends in the closed club?

It’s “587BCE”. Just kidding. No I covered it in the picture because I don’t think they really want it shared. 

Speaking of security. It’s much tighter than it was in 2019 when I was here last. There is the iron gate out front and the brother has to make a phone call with your name and appointment confirmation # to another person inside before they open it. Then you must stop for an attendant who asks you for the info again. Then a parking attendant. Then a brother at the main lobby door who only lets you in with a card key. 

I was just in Patterson to see the Bible Village “Museum” tour. It was excellent but too short. They also have a “legally establishing the good news” tour/museum and a Gilead school historical tour which now covers the other schools more extensively than before. 
 

I am back in Warwick now. Got here a bit early so I’m looking out on the lake. Very nice. I’ve worked while looking out on this lake before. But for IBM and not the WTS. IBM is at the other end of the lake. We used to handle our disaster recovery setup with them and I was sent here twice for my secular work. 

I just got into JW.ORG’s Wi-Fi network. That’s because they gave me the password and I’m sitting in the lobby. In fact someone gave me a card with the code on it. All you have to do is express a need for it. Like making a donation. lol. 

18 hours ago, The Librarian said:

This is what I was told when I was younger and I think about it every time I hear this song.....

I hate to say it, but I think of the TV series "Breaking Bad" every time I hear that song.

But I pioneered with a good friend during the years 1973-1976 when this book (1968 edition) reached its peak circulation. The brother was a Led Zeppelin fan, to the consternation of most of us who shared a car group with him. He always tried to convince people that their 1971 song "Stairway to Heaven" was written because someone from the group knew about the "Truth" book. The only words that partly fit were the following, assuming that the book was the "piper" and that "soon" there would be a "new day dawn" and there's still time to "change the road you're on" and get on the road that leads to eternal life, to paradise earth when "forests will echo with laughter."

Quite a stretch, imo, because I figured the song was completely unrelated to "truth."

And it's whispered that soon if we all call the tune
Then the piper will lead us to reason
And a new day will dawn for those who stand long
And the forests will echo with laughter

. . . 

Yes, there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run
There's still time to change the road you're on

@xero, I don't know if you are still interested in the question, but many people have figured out a way to arrive at the answer without making use of any astronomy. I started a thread where I was looking at starting from scratch and just using the Bible at first to figure out the relative chronology that the Bible gives, and using the Bible's synchronisms with Babylonian kings. Basically, you probably worked this same out for yourself already, based on statements in the Bible that say things like:

• the battle of Carchimish was in the 4th year of Jehoiakim
• the first year of Evil-Merodach was in the 37th year of Jehoiachin's exile
• etc.

So I come up with the following, which makes no mention of any BC/BCE years, but still gives the relative points in time for Josiah's death, Carchemish, Nebuchadnezzar's first year and last year, the beginning of Jehoiachin's exile, the beginning of Evil-Merodach's reign. But we don't know how long Cyrus ruled, and how long Evil Merodach ruled and we don't know the exact number of years between his reign and Cyrus conquering Babylon.

The test will require only 3 or 4 steps. 

The next step would make use only of the secular, clay business/contract tablets to fill in the known kings of Babylon over this same period shown above. That turns out to be fairly easy because there are thousands of them, and they interconnect and show the order of each king and the lengths of their reign, including their accession year.

And then a third step will be to look at any other single inscription, or subset of the tablets, that might verify the record we would get from the overall set of Babylonian contract tablets. Turns out there are about 3 ways to do this, none of which will involve astronomy, or the need to identify any BCE dates.

Then the fourth step, after the relative timeline is complete, just pick any ONE date you think is confirmed. Could be 539 BCE, could be the Watchtower's date for Nebuchadnezzar's 18th year, could be a date for Josiah's death, or the fall of Nineveh. Just choose any source you think might be viable, because choosing any one will fill out the rest. Then you can check if the date chosen makes sense for the entire timeline.

I might just try to get my money back. The parrot in the first picture is undoubtedly responding only to the difference between the prompt and the actual cartoon.

Me: No, if you remember what you drew in the very first picture. The man should have just hit his finger or thumb with a hammer while trying to hammer a nail in the wall. The woman should be next to the parrot. She should be pointing her left index finger at the parrot's ear, and she should point her right finger at the parrots other ear. But her index fingers should be close enough to be touching the parrot.

Me: 

Me: Keep the same picture, but have the woman holding the index finger of each hand at both sides of the parrot's head as if she is trying to cover the parrot's ears to keep the parrot from hearing whatever the man is saying.

I've adjusted the scene according to your instructions. The woman is now holding her index fingers at both sides of the parrot's head, attempting to cover its ears.

Not quite. So I try again:

I pay $20 a month to OpenAI to play with their 4.0+ version of ChatGPT. It's not really an expense because I still do some remote consulting for a tech company in Ohio. 

Today, I decided to try out its ability to draw pictures on demand. I wanted a picture of a man about to curse because he just hit his thumb with a hammer, and I want his wife, to put her fingers in the "ears" of their pet parrot, so that the parrot doesn't pick up any bad words to repeat.

So here goes:

Prompt: 

I need a New Yorker style cartoon containing man hammering a nail in the wall and accidentally hitting his thumb. At the same time a woman, presumably his wife, is standing next to a tall perch where a parrot appears oblivious and she, the wife, is putting her fingers in the ears of a parrot.

 Not terrible, but it didn't get the right idea about the parrot's ears being covered.

So I try again:

On 3/17/2024 at 4:18 PM, George88 said:

On 3/16/2024 at 6:33 AM, xero said:

How does that work, since nothing secular has attachments to anything we can verify w/o astronomical triangulation?

Understanding historical events involves delving into the past to gain insight into the present. A skilled researcher knows exactly where to find the necessary information, much like navigating by the stars. If the destruction of "Nineveh" occurred in 612 BC, what astronomical evidence supports this event?

Then you have references to the destruction of Nineveh in 606 BC and the siege of Nineveh in 635 BC.

Either we conduct our own research or acknowledge the flawed nature of JWI's research. It is not possible to have it both ways.

1 hour ago, George88 said:

Okay JWi.

1. Posted Sunday at 09:18 PM

I think that was it, thanks.

You mean that was it; that we got them all? Or that this one (requoted above) is one that you also want moved? It's dated Sunday at ?:18 PM, but ? refers to a different time zone from the one I'm in, so I couldn't tell exactly. And the use of VPN's can throw off the time zone on the time stamp.

I didn't move it before because it's on topic and it's not to BTK's question, but I'd still be happy to move it if you wish.

2 hours ago, George88 said:

JWI, thank you for your help. I was also talking about the other posts above.

As I said, I'll be happy to move as many or as few as you like. Since you still haven't said which ones specifically, I'll move a few more and you can tell me if there are still others. I went back into the conversation for two weeks, but found that this particular subset of the topic only went back for one week. So I moved more of your conversation with BTK going back one week. The others that still remain here are too tightly integrated into the current conversation. I suppose you could always copy information you presented here and repost it over there under the new topic. 

12 hours ago, George88 said:

I'm still waiting on JWI to have my post moved.

See the link above in response to the request. They had already been moved over an hour ago.