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JW Insider

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Posts posted by JW Insider

  1. On 9/2/2020 at 6:48 AM, Arauna said:

    What will they do if they catch a JWs with literature?  All house Christians are now being arrested and neighbors are encouraged to snitch on neighbors who are suspiciously religious.  So according to you, if this happens to a witness it will be slander of the government..... not reality.

    You probably don't realize it, but you have hit upon a small part of the evidence that Falun Gong is lying. Falun Gong makes statements that are demonstrably untrue. Yet, Witnesses have been arrested in China, along with people of many different Christian-claiming faiths. None of them are claiming what Falun Gong claims.

    I had never heard of them until about 10 years ago when they demonstrated outside my office in Manhattan, reenacting some bloody organ harvesting and beatings which got everyone's attention. I took several of their glossy brochures, and promised them I would look into it. One of their brochures had actual pictures of the organ harvesting, a woman claimed, and I asked how they got these actual pictures out of China in full color, from three different angles, and why there is an English sign in the background and some people that look like shoppers. She got angry that I would question it. And I was pretty much pushed aside. The picture, of course, wasn't even supposed to show anything but a London "reenactment" but this woman was either convinced it was real, or wanted me to think it was. But it made me alert to the possibility that this was all faked to gain converts and donations. If so, it was definitely working.

  2. 11 hours ago, Arauna said:
    18 hours ago, JW Insider said:

    China does not like Western journalists

    That is an understatement.

    True. You understated my statement, below, in order to call it an understatement. The full statement was:

    18 hours ago, JW Insider said:

    China does not like Western journalists who are intent on telling lies and making stuff up.

    There are literally thousands of Western journalists in China who are not lying and not making stuff up. But many are just there to pretend to legitimize stories that are not true.

    Fortunately, with the Internet you can now watch thousands of videos from many Chinese persons in every province, some complimentary of their government, some openly critical. But most have nothing to do with the government. You can see pictures of protests. You can see videos from persons discussing the government openly, in Chinese. But, with enough of these, and enough discussions with actual Chinese persons, there and abroad, you can get a better picture of what China is really like. There are also Americans and other "Westerners" who live in China and love it, some who defend it, some who don't like many things there, and some who have gone there just to make fun or display their racism. (See, for example, all Youtube videos by SerpentZA and laowhy86.) But what they end up showing inadvertently is often more important than their own political views or personal motives.

    11 hours ago, Arauna said:

    I watched a debate today with Chinese government officials. It was held at oxford university - where several scholars ( including a German one - their research is thorough) and people who know what is going on in China as well as Chinese citizens, who asked questions about family members still in detention.

    I'll listen to it. Where can I find it?

    When I quoted the source saying that The Epoch Times was blocked in mainland China, you said:

    On 9/2/2020 at 6:48 AM, Arauna said:

    You have to please explain to me why all western media and western newspapers are purged  in China  (unless cleaned up) because they are too western.

    I wonder what you would think if some busybodies came into your house just to report back to your congregation elders that you were an evil, Satan-worshiper, for example. Perhaps they think they have a right or duty to report this because one time they found you had a saved video about the Illuminati, the next time they found a video about Yoga, and the next time they found you had music from quasi-religious classical composers. I think that you would be more careful about who you allowed in your house.

    On 9/2/2020 at 6:48 AM, Arauna said:

    You also have to explain to me why all foreign students (students who studied abroad were now taken into custody in Hong Kong) or are followed by secret police to ensure they have not been infected by western ideas of freedom or religion.

    First, you should explain why only a very few students were taken into custody, when so many were causing willful destruction and violent rioting. I'm sure it's easy to find sources that claim that this was true of all students in a certain category. That doesn't make it true. But even when I looked at sources that publish anti-China propaganda on a daily basis, I find a different story here. Here's the first Google entry on a relevant search:

    • Jul 29, 2020 - Li Kwai-Wah, a senior superintendent in the Hong Kong police force, speaks during a ... All four “claimed to be students,” the tweet said. ... Tony Chung, 19, is taken into custody by plainclothes police July 29 in Hong Kong for ...

    The ellipses were already there. My Amazon Fire tablet gives me the Washington Post for free, but I didn't take the time to look up the article. But I do see several just like this on above. With all that facial recognition surveillance you would expect a million arrests, not just a few activists here and there.

  3. 2 hours ago, Anna said:

    And then there there this statement to the UN by Hamid Sabi. @JW Insider how credible do you see this as?

    Credible? It's Falun Gong. My opinion of Falun Gong is that they are laughably and ridiculously and incredibly incredible.

    I have already expressed some of those opinions here, and we have never even gotten into most of their other incredible claims. But I will quote someone who has done some of the legwork here on the "China Tribunal" statement read by Hamid Sabi.

    There are many sources and pieces to this, but they have been most clearly stated here on a website called the TheGrayZone.com :

    The rest of this post will be quotes of large portions of the article, below, and I will highlight the portion related to the UN presentation, but the whole thing is here: https://thegrayzone.com/2019/09/30/reports-china-organ-harvesting-cult-falun-gong/

    --------------

    A wave of corporate media reports on Chinese organ harvesting rely without acknowledgement on front groups connected to the far-right Falun Gong cult, whose followers believe “Trump was sent by heaven to destroy the Communist Party.”

    By Ryan McCarthy

    Western corporate media outlets have gone wild with claims that the Chinese state is “harvesting” the organs of ethnic minorities and political opposition figures. But an investigation by The Grayzone has found that these allegations originate from front groups run by the far-right opposition cult Falun Gong.

    Falun Gong, whose devotees can often be seen clad in yellow and performing coordinated qi gong routines in crowded city centers, runs an ultra-conservative, staunchly pro-Donald Trump media network that has been compared to Alex Jones’ Infowars.

    According to a former member of the fringe religious group, Falun Gong believes that an apocalyptic judgement day is soon approaching and “that Trump was sent by heaven to destroy the [Chinese] Communist Party.”

    In order to understand, then, how heavily politicized rumors from an obscure far-right cult found their way into the headlines, it is essential to trace the roots of the story through an elaborate network of front groups.

    In June 2019, a London-based organization called the China Tribunal published a report claiming that the Chinese government has been systematically executing and harvesting the organs of members of Falun Gong, a leading force of opposition to Beijing in the diaspora.

    The China Tribunal describes itself as an “independent tribunal into forced organ harvesting from prisoners of conscience in China.” Most Western journalists took the organization at its word.

    Up to and after it published the report, the China Tribunal received scattered coverage from various mainstream media outlets, including the Wall Street Journal, Forbes, and The Guardian. In September, the coverage ramped up considerably after the China Tribunal presented its case to the UN Human Rights Council, with major outlets like The Independent and Reuters joining in.

    One thing all this reporting has in common is that it assumes the China Tribunal is truly “independent.” On its website, the China Tribunal says that it was “initiated by the International Coalition to End Transplant Abuse in China (ETAC), an international not for profit organisation, with headquarters in Australia and National Committees in the UK, USA, Canada, New Zealand and Australia.”

    So what is ETAC, really?

    On ETAC’s website, one finds a “management” page with a list of people, devoid of any information except their names, photographs, and positions in the organization. The executive director and co-founder is Susie Hughes; Margo MacVicar is named as the New Zealand national manager; Rebecca James is the UK national manager for outreach, and so on.

    Where do these figures come from, and what brought them together? The website has no bios. But follow the names, and it soon becomes apparent that there is another connection apart from ETAC — the Epoch Times.

    A far-right anti-China propaganda network run by a cult

    The Epoch Times, which uses the slogan “Truth and Tradition,” has marketed itself as just another conservative, pro-Trump media outlet.

    But NBC News published a major exposé in August revealing it to be the media arm of the opposition cult Falun Gong. The report details the bizarre workings of the Falun Gong organization, showing how the Epoch Times is carving a place for itself in American right-wing media.

    NBC News found that the Falun Gong website spent more than $1.5 million on roughly 11,000 pro-Trump advertisements on Facebook in just six months, “more than any organization outside of the Trump campaign itself, and more than most Democratic presidential candidates have spent on their own campaigns.”

    [removed Falun Gong's swastika symbols, and their explanation]

    So where do the ETAC managers fit in with Falun Gong? Susie Hughes has photographer credits on several Epoch Times articles (her name seems to have been scrubbed, the photos merely credited to “The Epoch Times,” but the credit still shows up on Google searches at the time of writing). Margo MacVicar has numerous articles gushing about Shen Yun, Falun Gong’s traveling dance show. Rebecca “Becky” James shows up organizing a Falun Gong art exhibition in Bristol and sharing vegan drink recipes.

    ETAC’s UK national manager for initiatives, Andy Moody, is credited by Epoch Times as a reporter for its sibling NTD, or New Tang Dynasty Television, Falun Gong’s TV arm. (Concerned Canadians have noted that the cult’s propaganda network has received millions of their tax dollars worth of disproportionate funding.)

    ETAC’s UK communications coordinator Victoria Ledwidge appears in another Epoch Times article, coming to greet Shen Yun performers in London and, of course, acclaiming the “amazing” performance.

    As one goes down the list of ETAC management, these Falun Gong connections spring up for almost everyone. ETAC is very clearly a Falun Gong front group.

    Neither ETAC nor China Tribunal discloses these connections, but it hardly takes an intrepid investigative journalist to find them. So why was this level of basic research a step too far for, say, Owen Bowcott at the Guardian, who does little more than transmit ETAC’s talking points?

    In fact, Falun Gong itself is actively spreading this “organ harvesting” rumor in major North American cities. The Grayzone’s Ben Norton saw some of the cult’s activists standing in central Toronto next to a giant banner titled “Stop Forced Live Organ Harvesting in China.”

    They handed out pamphlets to passers-by declaring that the “Chinese Communist Regime Is Slaughtering Innocents” (using a painting as supposed evidence), while preaching about the “great health benefits” of Falun Gong.

    The far-right cult is clearly using these rumors to proselytize and recruit new supporters.

    ‘Research’ overseen by a cult that sidelines real doctors

    Turning to the China Tribunal’s report itself, it is apparent that, despite the authors’ claim to “have maintained distance and separation from ETAC in order to ensure their independence,” they rely heavily on information curated for them by ETAC.

    The introduction, after describing ETAC as “a not-for-profit coalition of lawyers, medical professionals and others”, goes on to state that “ETAC’s main interest has been the alleged suffering of practitioners of ‘Falun Gong’, a group performing meditative exercises and pursuing Truthfulness, Compassion, and Forbearance, but regarded by the People’s Republic of China (PRC) since 1999 as an ‘anti-humanitarian, anti-society and anti-science cult’.”

    It is understandable that critics might hesitate to take the PRC’s characterization of Falun Gong at face value. But it is easy to make a fair evaluation of the group’s true character simply by perusing their own publications, where one will learn, for instance, that modern science was invented by aliens as part of a scheme to take over human bodies; or that feminism, environmentalism, and homosexuality are part of Satan’s plan to make us into communists; or that race-mixing severs our connection to the gods.

    . . .

    The report summary goes on to state: “Evidence was submitted by ETAC for the first hearing, amplified by further evidence following the first and second evidence hearings.” So despite framing their investigation as separate and independent of ETAC, the authors admit that they began with evidence fed to them by ETAC.

    Their reliance on ETAC is further highlighted later when several doctors are named who expressed skepticism about the Falun Gong organ harvesting narrative. These doctors are listed as “doctors speaking favourably of the PRC.”

    The report then states:

    “All of these doctors were invited by the Tribunal to participate in the Tribunal’s proceedings. Their participation would have greatly assisted the Tribunal in its work; they all declined the invitations. Further, although each did contribute in person to a recent report by an Australian Government Committee their contributions have been subject to review by ETAC that reveals that they produced no hard evidence to support what they said and could be criticised for their methodology or their experience in transplant surgery.”

    In other words, the China Tribunal didn’t see any need to consider their testimony, because ETAC had already looked at it and declared it to be bogus.

    One of these doctors, Francis Delmonico, was contacted by the science journal Nature for its article on the China Tribunal’s report — a rare case of a dissenting opinion being registered, however grudgingly.

    Delmonico was asked specifically for his opinion on a research paper cited by the China Tribunal, which was published on the scientific archive, SocArXiv, by Matthew Robinson – a research fellow of the famously impartial Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation:

    “But Francis Delmonico, a surgeon at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston, says that although there is evidence that organs were taken from prisoners in the past — which he condemns — he is not convinced by the SocArXiv evidence because it is not direct. Delmonico is chair of the World Health Organization’s Task Force on Donation and Transplantation of Human Organs and Tissues and has been supporting organ-donation reform in China for more than a decade, although he made his comments to Nature in a personal capacity.”

    Lobbyists for an anti-Iran cult go to bat for an anti-China one

    The China Tribunal’s report is not the first alleging that the Chinese government is murdering Falun Gong prisoners en masse to harvest their organs. It relies heavily on an earlier document, known as the Kilgour-Matas report, which was initially released in 2006 and updated several times since then, with the title “Bloody Harvest.”

    This previous report was commissioned by the Coalition to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong in China. Unlike ETAC, CIPFG plainly states that it is a Falun Gong organization.

    More interesting connections arise when probing the backgrounds of the co-authors of the report, David Kilgour and David Matas.

    David Matas is the senior legal counsel for B’nai Brith Canada, a right-wing pro-Israel lobby that works hard to tar any critique of the occupation of Palestine as anti-semitism. He was also . . . [4 paragraphs removed here]

    So both authors of “Bloody Harvest” advocate on behalf of, not one, but two cults that also happen to be darlings of regime-change enthusiasts in and around Western governments. (The latest edition of “Bloody Harvest” includes a third co-author, Ethan Gutmann, who, notably, has been affiliated with the Gulf monarchy-funded Brookings Institution and the neoconservative Foundation for Defense of Democracies.)

    . . .

    A few reporters notice Falun Gong’s seamy side

    In March, Jia Tolentino published her impressions of Shen Yun in the New Yorker. Like the aforementioned NBC piece on the Epoch Times, Tolentino ‘s article shows that more and more people are noticing that there is something very odd about Falun Gong.

    From the “baroque and surreal” Shen Yun dance-propaganda show, which bills itself as a last bastion of genuine Chinese culture, she moves to consider some other very troubling aspects of the Falun Gong organization, such as their penchant for resisting journalistic inquiry and harassing critics.

    Tolentino also mentions a 2017 Washington Post investigation by Simon Denyer, which, while hardly a pro-PRC puff piece, casts serious doubt on the claims of the Kilgour-Matas report on organ harvesting.

    Denyer may be the only journalist in the mainstream US press who conducted an independent investigation on organ harvesting in China and seriously questions Falun Gong’s organ harvesting narrative. Naturally, Ethan Gutmann felt compelled to run a rebuttal to Denyer’s report on ETAC’s website — and one can only imagine the kinds of emails and phone calls Denyer has been getting since he dared to publish that piece.

    For most of the Western corporate media, the “Bloody Harvest” horror story is too ghoulishly titillating to subject to serious scrutiny, especially when the “Yellow Peril”-style villain is an increasingly powerful state threatening the old hegemonies.


  4. 1 hour ago, Witness said:

    But now, JWs are using computers to reach people, in the same way those who are not JWs, are doing.

    JWs may have had a relatively late start here, but I couldn't be more proud of the manner in which it was used as soon as it was taken seriously. And this was a decade ago, not just for Covid19.

    Even yesterday, I broke out an old TV streaming box (Roku) and one of the most popular apps on it, is still JW Broadcasting. And this isn't by specially searching for religious apps -- it's still listed as one of the most popular primary apps right up there in the top 50 or so, including Netflix, IMDB, NBC, FOX, etc.

    I know that the LDS and 7DA have made use of the Internet in similar ways, but they have been outpaced for years by JW.org. You can also look at independent traffic monitors that look at all sites on the web, and find that for religious sites, jw.org is the number one site of its type.

  5. 21 hours ago, Arauna said:

    They are not called military bases - that is why you will not read about them.

    But I do read about them. Plenty. More than enough to debunk the idea that propagandists promote. A lot of this is emphasized in the US press to distract from the fact that the US spends more on military than the next 10 largest nations combined. And much of what China calls military is used for internal infrastructure. Based on population you would expect China to have at least 5 times the US expenditure, but it's only 1/3 the US. 

    21 hours ago, Arauna said:

    This is NOT an isolated incident....

    There have been several racial attacks on Chinese by Africans in a few countries, mostly based on disagreements by citizens of those countries with the deals made by their leaders, which is then taken out on the Chinese persons there. There are about 10,000 Chinese persons working in Zimbabwe for example. There have been cases of abuse of Africans by Chinese, too. I don't doubt it a bit. But the difference between the numbers of incidents and the scale of incidents has given the Chinese such a better reputation that the West is clearly afraid they will lose their ability to make rapacious deals when the West laments that the Chinese have been doing a better job. 

    Similar to the incident you linked to (CNN) where the workers wanted US dollars, the NYT reports that there have been several strikes (riots?) also where workers wanted to be paid in US dollars, due to skyrocketing inflation. This case has nothing to do with China, but NYT reports that Zimbabwe sent its army against its own people and, although it doesn't say who or how, 6 strikers, I assume, were killed, with another 17 fatally shot in 2019 related to another strike. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/world/africa/zimbabwe-strike-protest-wages.html

    • Zimbabwe’s Civil Servants in Unprecedented Strike for Better Wages

    • HARARE, Zimbabwe — Civil servants stung by Zimbabwe’s galloping inflation staged a one-day strike on Wednesday in a demand for increased wages, saying that their earnings were disappearing under skyrocketing prices. . . . Zimbabwean doctors, many of whom have been on strike for about two months, are demanding that their wages not only be increased, but that they be paid in American dollars as a hedge against inflation. . . .

      Since coming to power, President Emerson Mnangagwa’s government has resorted to force to quell dissent.

      In August 2018, after demonstrators in Zimbabwe’s capital called the country’s peaceful elections a sham and demanded the immediate release of the results in the July presidential poll, Mr. Mnangagwa’s government unleashed the army on protesters.

      At least six people were killed in the clashes.

      In January this year, Mr. Mnangagwa’s government again deployed the military when antigovernment protests broke out against a rise in fuel prices, leaving 17 people fatally shot in Harare and nearby towns.

    21 hours ago, Arauna said:

    Last year, Chinese firm Tsignchan signed a $2 billion deal with the Zimbabwean Ministry of Mines to extract chrome, iron ore, nickel and coal, vital resources for China.   Copper in Zaire etc.  

    Are you saying this is a bad thing? Perhaps it is, but are you just as willing to say it is a bad thing when Western nations are also making such deals, and have been for years, and currently have more such deals than China?

    21 hours ago, Arauna said:

    'China’s biggest cobalt producer is to stop buying from individuals in the Democratic Republic of Congo, bowing to pressure from customers and rights groups concerned about child labour in the country’s informal mining sector. '

    Here, too, are you saying that it is a bad thing that China stopped buying from Congolese who use child labor? If you are pointing out that they only stopped buying after pressure, then why did you report this as if it was China's problem? The story comes through the UK based Financial Times where it was also reported:https://www.ft.com/content/ce9af944-fb70-4576-88d0-dc76821facfd https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/latest-news/chinas-biggest-cobalt-producer-agrees-to-stop-buying-from-individuals-in-drc-due-to-concerns-over-child-labour/

    • It was named alongside technology companies including Apple, Dell and Microsoft in a US class-action lawsuit filed on behalf of families of children killed or injured while mining cobalt in the central African nation, said the Financial Times.
    • Huayou has said it has cut child labour out of its supply chain and is working to help formalise small-scale mining in the DRC through efforts to improve safety and better trace cobalt…

    If China was the first to properly respond to this pressure, then why is this not a story about how and when (and if) US-based compainies like Apple, Dell, and Microsoft responded?

    Strangely, the FT article, includes a hint that China hopes that this is a temporary situation, and that the American companies will come together to help enforce standards that resolve the issue. Then there is a quote from Amnesty International that still finds fault with the Chinese decision, saying that if China refuses to buy that it will just make the economic situation worse for the Congolese, not better:

    • https://www.ft.com/content/ce9af944-fb70-4576-88d0-dc76821facfd
    • However, Mark Dummett, head of business, security and human rights at Amnesty, warned of unintended consequences from the company’s decision to stop buying from individual miners. “Artisanal mining is a lifeline for millions of impoverished people in the DRC,” he said. “We need to see companies working with the authorities to formalise it — make it safer, remove children, provide miners with a fair price. By refusing to buy from artisanal miners, Huayou risks making the situation for these miners worse, not better.”
  6. 18 hours ago, Arauna said:

    Fentanol - killing many Americans - raw materials are shipped from China... subversive and evil.

    You are echoing Falun Gong again. This next quote is from an article about Falun Gong's fake news: https://hpr1.com/index.php/feature/news/a-truly-fake-news-media/

    • That The Epoch Times publishes Associated Press stories is only one avenue they’re using to legitimize the publication and mainstream their political agenda. . . .
    • The Epoch Times is a publication searching to further the divides between America and China, being referred to as a legitimate source in dozens of articles pertaining to the opioid crisis and how China is waging “chemical warfare” against the United States by exporting fentanyl on the black market. One such story was written by The Epoch Times and republished by Amac, Association for Mature American Citizens.
    • China is hostile and foreign, according to the September 5 story, which also claims the China’s Central Government is behind the illicit sales.
    • The Falun Gong is a cult that rose in China in the 1990s, with a membership that soon surpassed Communist Party members at that time. Before the cult was banned in China, adherents embarked on a widespread evangelical-like campaign warning Chinese citizens that they must cut all affiliations with the nation’s ruling party if they wanted to survive an upcoming revolution, a kind of “communist hell.”

    One of the successes of Mao's communism was the near eradication of drug abuse and dependence on opium related products in their economy. Propaganda is often quite clever.

    This isn't to say that there were not bad actors everywhere. But merely claiming that most of the illegal creation and sales of fentanyl (and carfentanil, etc) came from China was not paired with evidence. The greater part of China's fentanyl sales into the United States and Canada was apparently for legitimate drugs.

    Of course, China should have regulated all vendors of fentanyl much sooner. It is now rated in China as an illegal, controlled substance, even though it is still used widely by hospitals for legitimate purposes, such as treating pain in cancer patients according to the CDC site. Also, Chinese vendors were more often accused of selling the precursor chemicals, not the finished product. The greater sources of the finished product were from a combination of Mexico and India. And now that China has cracked down on fentanyl and its precursor chemicals, the US DEA says that Mexico is getting more of their precursor chemicals from elsewhere: https://www.dea.gov/sites/default/files/2020-03/DEA_GOV_DIR-008-20 Fentanyl Flow in the United States_0.pdf

    • The flow of fentanyl into the United States in 2019 is more diverse compared to the start of the fentanyl crisis in 2014, with new source countries and new transit countries emerging as significant trafficking nodes. This is exacerbating the already multi-faceted fentanyl crisis by introducing additional source countries into the global supply chain of fentanyl, fentanyl-related substances, and fentanyl precursors. Further, this complicates law enforcement operations and policy efforts to stem the flow of fentanyl into the United States. While Mexico and China are the primary source countries for fentanyl and fentanyl-related substances trafficked directly into the United States, India is emerging as a source for finished fentanyl powder and fentanyl precursor chemicals.
    • . . . As Beijing and the Hong Kong Special Autonomous Region (SAR) place restrictions on more precursor chemicals, Mexican transnational criminal organizations (TCOs) are diversifying their sources of supply. This is evidenced by fentanyl shipments from India allegedly destined for Mexico. On May 4, 2018, the Hong Kong SAR updated their drug law to control the fentanyl precursors 4-anilino-N-phenethyl-4- piperidine (ANPP) and N-phenethyl-4-piperidone (NPP) as well as the synthetic opioid U-47700. This matches China’s scheduling of ANPP and NPP on July 1, 2017. The move by the Hong Kong SAR is considerable, since synthetic opioids produced and shipped from China may transit the Hong Kong SAR en route to the United States.Effective May 1, 2019, China officially controlled all forms of fentanyl as a class of drugs. This fulfilled the commitment that President Xi made during the G-20 Summit. The implementation of the new measure includes investigations of known fentanyl manufacturing areas, stricter control of internet sites advertising fentanyl, stricter enforcement of shipping regulations, and the creation of special teams to investigate leads on fentanyl trafficking. These new restrictions have the potential to severely limit fentanyl production and trafficking from China. This could alter China’s position as a supplier to both the United States and Mexico.

    The United States takes credit for pushing to make production of fentanyl illegal in China, especially after Prince's death in 2016 and discussions going on from 2017 to 2019. But it's not like the United States was so far ahead. Note these comments from Webmd.com:

    • Fentanyl is a powerful synthetic opioid approved by the FDA for use as a painkiller and anesthetic. It works by binding to opioid receptors in the brain, but it does so faster -- and in smaller doses -- than morphine . . .
    • How has law enforcement responded to the challenges posed by fentanyl makers, who are constantly changing the formulas for the drug so new versions might not be covered by laws making them illegal?
    • That has been a serious problem for law enforcement. Since fentanyl is a legal prescription drug, it didn’t fall under Schedule I of the Controlled Substances Act (CSA), which would have made it illegal. In response to this problem, the Drug Enforcement Administration in February [2018] issued a temporary order to place all fentanyl-related substances that are not already regulated by the CSA into Schedule I.
    • Criminal penalties will now apply to anyone who illegally makes, distributes, imports, exports, or possesses fentanyl-related substances. The order is effective for 2 years, with a possible 1-year extension. This will make it easier for law enforcement to deal with the explosion in fentanyl-related trafficking and overdose deaths.

    And, yes, I'm sure the drug has been used for evil. Major nations have been said to have studied it as a chemical weapon: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/china-sell-opioid-carfentanil-fentanyl-chemical-weapon-unrestricted-chinese/

    • For decades before being discovered by drug dealers, carfentanil and substances like it were researched as chemical weapons by the U.S., U.K., Russia, Israel, China, the Czech Republic and India, according to publicly available documents. They are banned from the battlefield under the Chemical Weapons Convention. . . .
    • Forms of fentanyl are suspected in an unsuccessful 1997 attempt by [Israel's] Mossad agents to kill a Hamas leader in Jordan, and were used to lethal effect by Russian forces against Chechen separatists who took hundreds of hostages at a Moscow theater in 2002. . . .
    • China already has controlled fentanyl and 18 related compounds, but despite periodic crackdowns, people willing to skirt the law are easy to find in China’s vast, freewheeling chemicals industry. Vendors said they lied on customs forms, guaranteed delivery to countries where carfentanil is banned and volunteered strategic advice on sneaking packages past law enforcement.
  7. 8 hours ago, Arauna said:

    These are the ONLY places a foreigner is allowed to visit.  Police follow all foreign journalists and visitors are watched. His comments confirmed the narrative.

    I know for a fact that this is not true. China does not like Western journalists who are intent on telling lies and making stuff up. Nor does any country for that matter. There are thousands of journalists from many countries all over China. One would have to seek out only the negative stories not to see this. There are people in China who don't like many aspects of their government and protest against it, and this gets reported too.

    There was an interesting example of Western bias using similar claims, that showed up from a famous Univision journalist named Jorge Ramos. His recent anti-Maduro interview where he was supposedly detained and cameras confiscated for reporting negative information in Venezuela got nearly a year of air-time in the United States. But then Maduro released the full interview (in Spanish) and Ramos came across like the biggest liar and word manipulator of all time. My wife cares nothing for politics, but she taught in perfectly fluent Spanish for years, and she translated the whole thing for me as we listened. The full interview that proved Maduro was a liar was hardly reported anywhere.

    8 hours ago, Arauna said:

    I  read today that 500 billionaires and many  of the CCP members have sent money out of the country a long time ago and their family members have already left china - they have bought golden passports in small countries like Cyprus.

    I read it too. It started in Falun Gong's paper, the Epoch Times. Did you ever wonder how an anti-CCP cult could get a paper in 35 countries and spend billions in advertising? Here's WIkipedia's opening take on the Epoch Times:

    If you start looking up information on China in Google or Bing, you will be flooded with Falun Gong propaganda in the form of the Epoch Times.

    8 hours ago, Arauna said:

    To save face, the CCP is becoming aggressive under Xi Ping and may even go to a minor war to show their strength ... or to give the country a feeling of unified nationalistic pride......   There are many Chinese who love his aggressive attitude.

    Western media like Falun Gong's becomes very proficient at seeing how the West acts and projects such actions on China. If China went to war one-one-hundredth as often as the West goes to war, they would suddenly be the most draconian regime ever imagined.

    8 hours ago, Arauna said:

    I have been watching what is going on in China since 2006 when they were caught the first time with organ harvesting.

    They were never caught with organ harvesting. Being caught implies evidence, not just claims from Falun Gong.

    8 hours ago, Arauna said:

    When it becomes public knowledge then the CCP will come down on the perpetrator with full force if CCP loses face.  Otherwise you can get the job done any way you like.

    This is one of the easiest ways to make conspiracies sound more plausible, too. Just say that corruption is a "policy" but that you should not get caught. And if you do, then say that the punishment was only meted out against the corruption because they were caught. What you seem not to realize is that the laws against corruption have been very harsh against all types of financial corruption for decades. There is a lot of inconsistency in claiming that the CCP wants full control, wants corruption, but allows governers to get the job done any way they like, and wants to punish corruption when it's caught.

    It's the same way in which one can claim that the only reason 80 percent of Chinese people declare positive support the government is because if they didn't they would be "disappeared." (Which would tend to make it 100% positive support.)

    It's the same way that one would say that all reports that are negative about China must be true, and all reports that are positive must be naive. The world is a little more nuanced than this. There are plenty of negative things to say about China. You ask me why I appear to defend things like live "against-your-will" organ harvesting. Of course, I wouldn't defend it. But I also think it would be nearly impossible to hide all the evidence about such claims. I also don't think it fits the idea of the CCP always trying to save face. And it's definitely not necessary as a way to make money judging by the strength of the Chinese economy.

    I understand the need to call me arrogant because I quote books that you think I'm calling you an ignoramus. I apologize for making you feel like this is intended. I actually enjoy the conversation because you seem to be the most well-read on issues regarding China. I do not believe that you yourself are racist and fear-mongering, yet you defend the information that comes from the racist and fear-mongering sources. It's those sources I am addressing. This is not personal.

    Christians are not supposed to slander. And I think that making statements about people and governments that could be true, but which we do not know to be true can border on slander. You make these claims while claiming to "know" them to be true. Or you claim they have been "proven" to be true. Perhaps you even have good evidence rather than just claims from other sources making the same claims. I'm still interested because you might be able to provide this kind of evidence on some of the claims you bring up.

    I am always ready to reconsider, but my opinion will be based on the preponderance of the evidence, not just claims.

  8. 7 hours ago, Arauna said:

    Communism when it becomes constrictive is the same everywhere  and so is corruption ... and the same tactics of starvation which is used against citizens in Africa is an old communistic tactic. 

    It just seems even more prejudicial to blame starvation as a tactic of communism when it was a tactic of mostly European imperialism for centuries. It wasn't until the 1960's that the majority of African nations found a measure of independence from European masters who were only bent on robbing and cheating Africa out of local resources.

    A closer look and you will find that there are hardly any examples of starvation as a "tactic" by communist nations. Not in Russia, not in China, and not in Ethiopia. Starvation is often the catalyst under feudalism, and capitalism, and imperialism that incentivizes communism in the first place.

    7 hours ago, Arauna said:

    Most African leaders were trained in  Libya's universities ( Ghadafi ), Cuban schools or in Russia. 

    Whether this matters or not I don't know. But I suspect that this is just another claim that is supposed to be prejudicial and very likely is far from true, like so many of the other claims made here. If you have evidence, however, it might be interesting. I looked up about 10 random leaders and it seemed not to be true of any of them.

    7 hours ago, Arauna said:

    It is not that Western systems are inefficient - one has to get permission to use organs and one needs family members to sign for their use.  In CCP china - they take them out while you are alive against your will! 

    The claims taken as supposed evidence for this is laughably dubious. If you would take the time to get to know several people from several different parts of China, and get to know their feelings about their government, both negative and positive, you probably would find it more difficult to accept the ravings of fear-mongering lunatics from Falun Gong. Falun Gong's finances have come to depend on such claims. The belief that China takes organs out of living people against their will is the equivalent of Russia saying that JWs are extremists. Or the equivalent of kids I went to school with who claimed that Nazis lubricated their tank engines with human babies.

    It's easy to make claims without evidence. Therefore it should be easy to dismiss such prejudicial claims without evidence.

    7 hours ago, Arauna said:

    Have you seen news lately?  Many programs done by Germany, Australia and other countries - surprisingly even human rights organizations... give proof of what is going on. There are so many things happening which prove my case.

    Claims don't prove anything. In fact, after so many of them are debunked you begin to see a pattern that can help you judge future claims. Do you think everything that North Korean schoolchildren supposedly learn about the United States is somehow proven? And for all we really know, North Korea might not actually be teaching schoolchildren the things about the United States that the US says they are teaching.

    7 hours ago, Arauna said:

    China is aggressive in Asian sea - ramming fishing boats, not allowing other countries to fish in their own waters.   On India's border they are putting up missiles etc and controlling water etc. 

    I suspect there is some truth to this claim by Vietnam and the Philippines. Of course, it is reported as if China is suddenly moving into these waters to bully other countries. China has been fishing the waters of the South China Sea for generations and no international courts have changed those boundaries yet. China believes this is part of China, and although it will sometimes allow other nations to fish in these waters, China will also set fishing limits, or even set rules that one cannot fish out of season at certain latitudes. But these cases, and the types of conflicts they are now causing, seem very believable. At this link, it is clear that China is trying to set rules that Vietnam has declared they will not comply with. https://www.maritime-executive.com/article/report-chinese-vessel-rams-vietnamese-fishing-boat-in-s-china-sea

    • "The Consular Department of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Vietnamese Embassy in Beijing discussed with China to assert Vietnam's sovereignty over the Paracel Islands," a Vietnamese foreign ministry spokesperson told Tuoi Tre. "The Chinese side investigated and verified the case information and notified the results to the Vietnamese authorities to continue coordinating."
    • China has enacted a seasonal ban on fishing in the South China Sea above 12 degrees of latitude, effective May 1. China claims almost the entirety of the South China Sea, including waters within neighboring states' EEZs. Both Vietnam and the Philippines have criticized the fishing ban, and Vietnam has announced that its fleet will not comply with the unilateral prohibition.

    As the link above shows, the problems are usually around the disputed Spratly and Paracel land features of these archipelagos. I'd say that Vietnam has just as much claim to them, but they are deep within an area near the center of the South China Sea that China had successfully claimed before and after WWII, when many world boundaries were "set" and "reset." China also seems to have been the nation defending them from potential claims by European powers in the 1800's, per Wikipedia. Even an American claimed one of them in the 1950's:

    • A later 1859 edition of the map named the Spratly Island as Storm Island.[60] The islands were sporadically visited throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries by mariners from different European powers (including Richard Spratly, after whom the island group derives its most recognisable English name, who visited the group in the 1840s in his whaler Cyrus).[62] However, these nations showed little interest in the islands. In 1883, German boats surveyed the Spratly and the Paracel Islands but eventually withdrew the survey, after receiving protests from the Guangdong government representing the Qing dynasty. China sent naval forces on inspection tours in 1902 and 1907 and placed flags and markers on the islands.[63]
    • In the 1950s, a group of individuals claimed sovereignty over the islands in the name of Morton F. Meads, supposedly an American descendant of a British naval captain who gave his name to Meads Island (Itu Aba) in the 1870s. In an affidavit made in 1971, the group claimed to represent the Kingdom of Humanity/Republic of Morac-Songhrati-Meads,[64] which they asserted was in turn the successor entity for a supposed Kingdom of Humanity established between the two world wars on Meads Island, allegedly by the son of the British captain. This claim to this would-be micronation fell dormant after 1972, when several members of the group drowned in a typhoon.[65][66][67][68]
    7 hours ago, Arauna said:

    On India's border they are putting up missiles etc and controlling water etc. 

    India and China have currently settled the border disputes. India is not complaining about the way China controls the water sources in Tibet, except that the tensions have resulted in less information about the release of water from hydro-electric dams, information about potential monsoon flooding, and flooding from glacier blockages in the Himalayas. Currently there is more concern over potential flooding of the rivers in India, but over time, as glaciers melt away, this will no doubt return as a big geopolitical issue again.

    The fact that China has military and missile capabilities comparable to the US and Russia is a concern. Unlike the United States, China has a never strike first policy which is why the majority of their military work is on capabilities for detection and deterrent. (It's the advanced nature of their ANTI-missile system that the US is more worried about.) But no one should trust any other country during the fog of war, so this might not mean much.

    However, there is no necessary connection between the missiles and controlling water. I've seen where India has often had a much worse reputation in fact for its own downstream countries like Pakistan and Bangladesh: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-41303082

    • The news came just when Indian media were suggesting that Delhi could pull out of the Indus Water Treaty - signed with Pakistan - following a militant attack in Indian-administered Kashmir.
    • As an upstream country for Bangladesh and Pakistan, India too has time and again been accused by these downstream countries of ignoring their concerns.

     

  9. So the out of body experience is the video's metaphor for his ability to objectively view the fact that he is in a dead relationship (per lyrics). A relationship that he cannot save. After the passion (fire) burned out, there was nothing left. He was off fighting a doomed battle and was overpowered, and couldn't be there. He is lamenting the fact that he doesn't want to be the one to declare their relationship dead, and he doesn't want to take the blame for ending the relationship. And there is always the idea that feeding the flame of passion will somehow save them, but she is running away from the real problem, not dealing with it, too. Therefore, they keep running away, but really just running in circles.

    I like the line is "Maybe you don't understand what I'm going through; It's only me, what you got to lose?" This is worded so that it can be an admission that his ego is too strong and he thinks too little of her, or that he is being quite humble and telling her that he is no great prize anyway, so she should be the one to take some steps here.

    It reminds me of Jose Feliciano's "Light My Fire" which deals with the idea that a potentially dying relationship ("Darling we could only lose; and our love become a funeral pyre.") can be fired up again with renewed physical passion. Malone's song deals with a deeper idea that is takes more than physical passion to keep a relationship alive.

    1. Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.
    2. Guide reproduction wisely — improving fitness and diversity.
    3. Unite humanity with a living new language.
    4. Rule passion — faith — tradition — and all things with tempered reason.
    5. Protect people and nations with fair laws and just courts.
    6. Let all nations rule internally resolving external disputes in a world court.
    7. Avoid petty laws and useless officials.
    8. Balance personal rights with social duties.
    9. Prize truth — beauty — love — seeking harmony with the infinite.
    10. Be not a cancer on the Earth — Leave room for nature — Leave room for nature.

    In other words:

    1. Eliminate the vast majority of the earth's population. There are at least 7 billion people too many.

    2. Use eugenics, but a little better than the way the Nazis did.

    3. Open re-education centers to teach everyone a common language.

    4. Replace excitement, religion and cultural traditions with things that a certain set of rulers accept as reasonable.

    5. New World Order

    6. New World Order

    7. (OK. Revised Federalist Papers.)

    8. Hmm. Don't allow personal (civil) rights unless they are earned.

    9. A more secular definition of spirituality.

    10. (OK. But not at the cost of 7 billion people.)

     

  10. 3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

    And...somewhere along the line it must fit in somehow that I am now in the Gilded Age Great Courses theory.

    When I was even more naive about the Internet and copyright issues I found a site that had every one of the "Great Courses" on it, in mp3 format, as they existed in 1999 or so. I ended up deleting them. But I really wanted them because I had already checked a few out of the library, and when I couldn't finish them in a three week period, I admit to copying quite a few of the CDs I got to listen at a later time. I rationalized that I photocopied dozens of books from the library and since these were for personal use, I figured there can't be that much trouble for saving photocopies. But then I hit upon a library sale while working in Syracuse that had, $10,000 worth of these for $150. The total was about $1000 for all of them piecemeal, but I asked "What if I bought all of them?" We haggled between $200 and $100 and met in the middle. I guess it was their backup copy, probably bought on a grant anyway, and the library got some cash for something that wasn't being checked out.

    Since then I have added a few more newer ones to the collection by checking them out of the library. I figured I'd listen to more after I get back into jogging or riding my bike, but tying their use to those things isn't a good plan for a procrastinator. At any rate, you piqued my interest in Voltaire, which I hadn't listened to, although I have listened to the Gilded Age. I have Bart Ehrman's course(s) too, but figured I had seen enough of his books and blog. (In that arena, I prefer the late Larry Hurtado's blog.)

    I've probably only completely listened to 10 out of about 50. Also, for biology, physics, chemistry, math, etc, there are a lot of good "replacements" now on Yale's and Harvard's websites and YouTube. I found that while jogging, I wasn't so good at paying close attention, or remembering things I had heard that I wanted to write down.

  11. 3 hours ago, Arauna said:

    Of course - some people he spoke to were suspicious but all in all the documentary was perfect because it gave one a good idea of how advanced things are there.  

    Being able to get an organ for a transplant is not a crime. My granddaughter's babysitter's son needs a kidney transplant, but he is only borderline eligible depending on a certain test that he has failed and passed and failed and passed. She knows that inefficiency in the US system is a terrible problem.

    There is nothing wrong with having an efficient organ transplant database. You will find anti-Chinese sources that will claim that China gets these donations from prisoners. And if that doesn't sound "draconian" enough, they will claim that the organs are taken from them while they are still alive.

    Of course, the issue of prisoner organ donations and organ donations from those executed is controversial. Consider:

    • In China there is no law against prisoner organ donation; however, the transplant community has discouraged use of prisoner's organs since the early 1990s due to concern over prisons' high-risk environment for infectious diseases.[1] Physicians and ethicists also criticize the idea because a prisoner is not able to consent to the procedure in a free and non-coercive environment,[2] especially if given inducements to participate. Also, many prisoners would not be eligible donors due to age, because many prisoners on death row are in their fifties or older.[3] However, with modern testing advances to more safely rule out infectious disease and by ensuring that there are no incentives offered to participate, some have argued that prisoners can now voluntarily consent to organ donation just as they can now consent to medical procedures in general. With careful safeguards, and with over 2 million prisoners in China, they reason that prisoners can provide a solution for reducing organ shortages in China.
    • While some have argued that prisoner participation would likely be too low to make a difference, one Chinese program . . . encourages inmates to voluntarily sign up to donate their heart and other organs.[5] As of mid-2012, over 10,000 inmates had signed up in that one county alone.

    Before you try to respond to this as some kind of skewed propaganda, I'll admit that it is. I lifted those paragraphs verbatim from a Wikipedia article, not about China, but about the United States. And the "Chinese program" was about 10,000 volunteers in just one county in Arizona, not China. I bolded all the places where I changed USA to China.

    3 hours ago, Arauna said:

    Ha-ha. China - sat on it a long time and took hospital doctors into custody who tried to warn others. CCP  allowed the Chinese workers in Italy to come home to China for the New Year and then return back to north- Italy.  Ever wondered why so many Italians were infected?

    There are always a few days when it's too early to tell how serious a problem is. There will always be mistakes as there are with every contagious virus. Yet, it was still by far the fastest and most efficient identification and action taken against a virus in history.

    3 hours ago, Arauna said:

    No - you will not convince me......I have read too much about the predatory loans and how they have taken over ports and airports and even killed demonstrators in Africa. 

    You will surely read about "predatory" loans, because this is a sore spot with the West where predatory loans have been the best way to cheat and steal from various countries all over the world. It seems that the West hates that their own reputation has turned so many countries away, and helped open up some of those same mines and resources to China. All the projection against China isn't working, because it's recognized as so hypocritical.

    I've read about all the supposed dozens of Chinese military bases in Africa, and then it turned out to contradict later claims by the United States that China was about to open its first military base (Djibouti), and when I read about its uses, it was a stretch to even call it a real military base.

    Please find the source that "they" (the Chinese) have even killed demonstrators in Africa. I looked and only found even African media sources reporting deaths of a few Chinese persons by Africans due to racial tensions (Zambia/Congo). I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I remember wanting to look into such cases before and not seeing anything credible.

    I also have found that several of the supposed claims against China end up debunked just as these "fake videos" recently were used as evidence that Chinese were beating up Africans due to blaming coronavirus on them. But the video turned out to have been used in 2018 for another purpose, and in 2016 for another purpose: https://observers.france24.com/en/20200420-debunked-fake-videos-violence-africans-china-covid19

    • Back in 2018, the video was widely circulated alongside a caption claiming that it showed a 25-year-old Zambian student who was killed for having a relationship with a Chinese woman. However, we also found even earlier instances of this video online.
    • A better-quality, slightly longer version, which also includes footage of the same scene filmed at a different angle was posted back in August 2016, with a completely different story. That post claimed that the video showed shopkeepers in Kuching, Malaysia who were beating up a man who they caught trying to rob their shop.
    • The FRANCE 24 Observers team was not able to independently verify if this is the real story behind the video, though we will update the page if we dig up more information on it. But one thing is clear -- this footage is old and has nothing to do with COVID-19.
    • 2. A street fight between a group of black men and a group of Asian men

      Another video, which has garnered hundreds of thousands of views on Twitter, shows a street fight between a group of black men and a group of Asian men. One of the Asian men seems to be brandishing a kitchen knife.

      "In Guangzhou, Chinese people beat up Africans who they blame for allegedly bringing back coronavirus,” reads the caption on the video, translated from French. But the caption is false twice over. The incident actually took place in New York and happened long before the pandemic.
    3 hours ago, Arauna said:

      I do not get my news from CNN, MBC or Fox. 

    I never thought you did. I have seen many media sources much more fascist, biased and even outright racist than these sources are.

  12. 3 hours ago, Arauna said:

    I understand very well how they function and the mindset - having come from there....

    Africa is a big continent. Coming from South Africa is not the same as coming from Ethiopia. All black leaders are not alike, just as all white or other leaders are not alike.

    3 hours ago, Arauna said:

    WHO head is not the only high official who withheld food from the people that did not vote for him. . . .   He is also NOT a doctor. He is just an official because China lobbied for him.

    I think you are confusing the fact that the US withheld famine aid from Ethiopia because it had a Marxist government. Or perhaps that Trump claimed he would withhold aid from fire-razed California because they didn't vote for him. There is NO evidence that Tedros withheld aid from anyone.

    Also, think about the reason you thought it was important to add that he is NOT a doctor. His Bachelor's degree is in biology, and his Master's degree is in immunology, and his doctorate (PhD) is also for medical-related research. And yet, no one here had claimed he was a doctor. Also, he was an Ethiopian official long before China lobbied for him. (He began working in the ministry of health in 1986 and was appointed deputy minister for health in 2003.) Also he was endorsed for the WHO position by almost all African countries, and apparently would have still won by a very wide majority even if China had not supported him.

    3 hours ago, Arauna said:

    I see every day how China is belligerent and see more and more people who are fleeing and telling harrowing stories. 

    I suspect you will continue to see even more of these stories. Pompeo and Trump are anxious to heat up a cold war here. Elites from many Western countries are anxious for a weaker China. Falun Gong has already found itself in a position to be offered millions of dollars by Western sources who otherwise have no interest in the religious aspects of the cult.

    3 hours ago, Arauna said:

    Are you not watching the current news?  All the lawmakers in Hong Kong who have voted for democratic laws in the past were taking into custody.

    There you go again. What news sources are claiming that something like this is happening to "all the lawmakers in HK who have voted for democratic laws"? Why the exaggeration? Is it necessary to create a certain narrative about HK?

    Here is the news about "all the lawmakers:" https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/26/hong-kong-police-arrests-over-protests-last-year.html

    • Hong Kong police arrested 16 people Wednesday on charges related to anti-government protests last year, including two opposition lawmakers.
    • Pro-democracy legislators Ted Hui and Lam Cheuk-ting were arrested early Wednesday, according to posts on their Facebook pages.
    • Posts on Lam’s Twitter account said he had been arrested on charges of conspiring with others to damage property and obstructing the course of justice during a protest in July 2019. The tweets said he has also been accused of rioting on July 21, 2019.
    • The Democratic Party in Hong Kong confirmed in a separate Facebook post that both members were arrested.
    • Posts on Lam’s Twitter account said he had been arrested on charges of conspiring with others to damage property and obstructing the course of justice during a protest in July 2019. The tweets said he has also been accused of rioting on July 21, 2019.

    Although the Democratic Party in HK claims that Hui (one of the two lawmakers arrested) was only a victim, there is plenty of evidence that the conspiracies to promote terrorism came from the fascist side of these demonstrations, not from the police or the Chinese government. There is also plenty of evidence that the fascist/terrorist side of these demonstrations were coordinated with American and other Western factions. Many have been arrested, probably thousands. But here we have only TWO of the lawmakers who have voted for democratic laws.

    Also, this has nothing to do with democracy. It is about a downturn in the economic cycle. The elite in HK are losing the ability to sustain the promises of capitalism to the frustrated youth of HK. The blame MUST be put on China. This is why the original cause of the protests was whipped up from something that the rioters never even cared about. (same source as above)

    • The semi-autonomous Chinese city saw months of anti-government protests after the government announced its intent to pass a controversial extradition bill that would have allowed criminal suspects to be sent to the mainland to stand trial. Anger over the bill, seen as an infringement on the former British colony’s freedoms, sparked protests that at times descended into violence between police and demonstrators, and protests continued even after the bill was later shelved.

    Legally, China had every right to extradite a HK citizen who was suspected of strangling his girlfriend to death in Taiwan. So they proposed a law that would allow extraditions to and from HK, so that HK would also be able to respond to extradition requests from other countries, too. But when the rioting started, China shelved the bill. But the rioting kept going anyway. Note:

    https://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-taiwan-china-hong-kong-chan-tong-kai-murder-20190619-story.html

    More than a year ago on the outskirts of Taipei, Taiwan’s capital, a woman’s decomposed body turned up in a grassy thicket near a riverside recreation area popular with tourists.

    The 21-year-old Hong Kong woman had been visiting Taiwan, according to a Taipei police report. A male friend, also from Hong Kong, is suspected of strangling her during a Valentine’s Day trip, a police official said Wednesday.

    The suspect, Chan Tong-kai, 20, returned to Hong Kong four days after the possible murder — as if nothing had happened — before Taiwan police could investigate a cause of death.

    “Not too many people knew about it, and I don’t think this case attracted a lot of attention,” said Nathan Liu, an international affairs professor at Ming Chuan University in Taiwan. He read about it in newspapers just this month.

    Now the case is getting noticed because it catalyzed a bill in Hong Kong that sparked a series of street protests this month involving more than a million people in the former British colony. Hong Kong officials say the Taiwan case exposed a legal loophole that the bill would close. It’s also exposing political Taiwan-China barriers that may keep the case from being resolved.

    The bill would let Hong Kong sign extradition deals with other governments. Other governments could in turn prosecute Hong Kong people suspected of crimes on their soil after extradition. Protesters fear Hong Kong suspects would land in China for political reasons and get stuck in an opaque legal system in which the death penalty is legal.

  13. On 8/26/2020 at 6:41 AM, Arauna said:

    I am not going to argue with any of you - frankly - I do not have the time....at present 

    Not a problem. But I'd like to leave off with one idea to think about. I'll just pick out a couple of the last things you brought up regarding China:

    On 8/23/2020 at 9:39 AM, Arauna said:

    the WHO leader is pro-china as Ethiopia has close links with China.  China lobbied for him to be appointed - why?   Close ties, and he is as corrupt as they can be.

    Think about who tried to convince you that the WHO leader, "Tedros," is "as corrupt as they can be." Think about where you would have read something like that, in order to repeat it. There is absolutely no evidence of his corruption, and, in his case, a ton of evidence that he was not corrupt. In fact, it was his apparent lack of corruption that the UK/US bloc ended up picking on to try to turn it into a point of corruption. And even if it had been corrupt to undercount the unproven cases of cholera, which ended up providing his ministry with less money than they might have otherwise received, then how does this prove he was "as corrupt as they can be?"

    It's pretty easy to see where this comes from, and most of those persons who repeat such things are simply repeating exaggerations because they fit a "necessary" narrative. Ultimately it's probably a lie just to fit a narrative about China.

    For that matter, look again at who tried to convince you that the following was true:

    On 8/23/2020 at 9:39 AM, Arauna said:

    It will soon be impossible for any to live there and the call is for them to return to the mainland.... But  (it seems) by your standards, these kind of controls are not draconian .... just normal business

    Think, again, about where you would read such things. Who tried to convince you that enforcing a tax law that affects rich persons who have been hiding their income from taxation in Hong Kong was somehow draconian? In the United States this is considered normal business. While thousands of rich persons in the United States have been hiding their money in illegal tax havens, as it becomes possible to close up these loopholes, the United States has often done it -- and no one uses the word "draconian."

    You probably know that "draconian" is a reflexive cliche in Western writing for all things that China does. When Covid-19 lockdowns began in China, dozens of Twitter pundits wondered how long it was going to take for the West, especially the United States, to find ways to call it "draconian."

    And sure enough, we all know that mistakes must inevitably have been made during the first few days and weeks of this virus. But when China handled this particular outbreak faster and more efficiently than any country has ever handled a virus outbreak in history, the word "draconian" was in all the Western papers and news media outlets.

    When local Chinese leaders arrested a doctor who was trying to help his friends break the quarantine and get out of the city and province, national Chinese leaders made them release the doctor and told the local leaders they handled it wrong. The same thing happened with other over-reactions by local leaders. Perhaps a lockdown or quarantine really does seem draconian, even if it is the best way to try to save lives, when one is not yet sure of the full nature or danger. But for enforcing an existing tax law? That's draconian, too?

    It's even easier to see where this one comes from. But when it comes to actual evidence, one might then decide to test a hypothesis that many more of these "draconian" measures are coming from the same place. Then one might wonder why only one vehemently anti-communist cult (Falon Gong) had claimed "organ harvesting" starting in 2006. Now a few separatists Muslim Uyghurs have joined in this claim.

    So, here are two groups, one with only about 40,000 known members worldwide, claiming they are part of a horrendous genocide. Western researchers, speaking for the two groups have claimed before the UN, things like the following (reported in Business Insider):

    • Sabi told the UN council on Tuesday that China's efforts involved "hundreds of thousands of victims," describing it as "one of the worst mass atrocities of this century."  He did not specify how many organs the China Tribunal believes had been harvested, or the number taken from Uighurs and from Falun Gong members. "Victim for victim and death for death, cutting out the hearts and other organs from living, blameless, harmless, peaceable people constitutes one of the worst mass atrocities of this century," he said.

    The press almost never touches the other side of this story including the fact that all evidence is merely word-of-mouth reporting. And some of that reporting has been laughable.

    It's also difficult to explain why we rarely hear about other beliefs and claims of the cult that everyone would know immediately are obviously false. Why the cover-up of their insane beliefs?

    The same goes for the Uyghurs. Why do we so rarely hear about the thousands of Chinese Uyghur separatists who have joined Isis and other terrorist groups, fighting in Syria, and ending up in Turkey rather than going back to face justice in China. What would the United States do if citizens joined Isis or other terrorist groups?

    And why does no one point out that so many of their claims are ludicrous, such as the claims that their language is being snuffed out, when signs in the Uyghur's provinces are in both Chinese and their own language? Why are they allowed to claim that their music and culture are being snuffed out, when other parts of China celebrate their music and culture, and their music is even popular among many Han Chinese in Beijing.

    Claims can always be true or false, or have elements of both. But it's the contradictions and proven exaggerations that should make us wonder if we ought to look at various claims more closely before repeating them as if they must necessarily be true.

  14. 24 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

    I don’t see that Sanger had much of an issue with this.

    I was a bit surprised that he didn't deal with this as a major issue. It's often brought up as THE issue when it comes to certain conclusions about vaccines, climate science, etc.

    I heard that he did an interview, I haven't seen, where he spoke of the need to put major news media sources far ahead of minor news media sources, which could work against his goal here.

  15. 16 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

    Without explicitly lying, it effectively does so. By not presenting “the other side” of anything, it presents the picture that there is none.

    And then there's the problem of giving "the other side" too much credibility when it is not worthy of a mention.

    An example might be: "Julius Caesar was assassinated by a group from his own Senate. Of course, there is a growing number of people who believe that Julius Caesar never existed at all."

    Last night, I caught a bit of a show called "Bombshell" (which is mostly about Roger Ailes and FoxNews). In it a new hire is trying to impress Bill O'Reilly, and fails. She is counseled by her mentor that if she doesn't have a source she should just say that "some people are saying." Of course, the show is clearly opportunistic in using the downfall of Ailes and O'Reilly to spit venom at the whole process of creating news at FoxNews.

  16. Thanks for posting this. Neutrality is nearly impossible by any one person, even with rules that attempt to define exactly how differing points of view about a topic should be handled. Obviously some types of topics are more easily made neutral, but he shows how political, religious, and scientific topics, too, can be biased. Sanger has been going on about this not just because he wished for his "Citizendium" to be a viable competitor (a 2007 startup after he left Wikipedia). He wrote some good guidelines on neutrality with the original plans for Wikipedia.

    It's not as good or complete as your link above, but he also did a good interview with Slate about 10 years ago: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2010/07/this-interview-is-a-stub-wikipedia-co-founder-larry-sanger-on-being-wrong.html 

  17. 13 hours ago, Arauna said:

    China is putting heavy taxes on all who remain in Hong Kong.  It will soon be impossible for any to live there and the call is for them to return to the mainland.... But  (it seems) by your standards, these kind of controls are not draconian

    China is now doing exactly what the United States does in this regard. By Bloomberg's standards they are not draconian. In fact, read closely what bloomberg.com says, and you will see that this "new" law isn't even new. It is merely a somewhat greater enforcement of a law that has always asked rich people in Hong Kong to pay their taxes. It's really about the same thing that happened in the United States when certain countries began sharing banking data through more transparent methods. This makes it possible to include more details about how and when taxes should be paid, even if the requirement was there all along. For the United States, and many Western countries previous tax havens in many countries became no place for the rich to hide money. (Still some exceptions; see Panama Papers.)

    I'll just quote most of the article for the remainder of this post, and you can note the parts I highlighted. The basic problem is not China here at all, but the fact that Hong Kong, especially in the millionaire class, have fought to keep the prices high in HK, and this is especially noticeable in housing. This can be put squarely on the shoulders of a class of people like Jimmy Lai, who promote HK riots about diversions, even though some of the participants know, deep down, that they are really rioting over the results of capitalism run amock, which necessarily pass through periodic phases of economic downturn. We have seen something similar happen in other places over BLM and Floyd although, deep down, many of the rioters don't really care about those issues.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-07-19/why-china-s-new-tax-push-has-mainland-expats-worried-quicktake

    Why China’s New Tax Rules Worry Bankers in Hong Kong

     

    1. What’s changed?

    First off, a revised tax code took effect last year that’s intended to lower the burden on the poor and the middle class by making the rich pay more. Chinese citizens have been obliged to pay taxes on their global income for many years. But for those working abroad, it hadn’t been generally enforced. Largely, tax experts say, that’s because there wasn’t a detailed legal basis nor guidelines for coordination. In January, however, Chinese authorities issued instructions on how to comply with the tax law while abroad -- a move that caught many Chinese expats off guard. Chinese state-owned enterprises in Hong Kong started telling workers who had transferred from the mainland to declare their 2019 income so they could pay taxes back home. Employees in other locations such as Singapore got the same message.

    2. And?

    China has started automatically exchanging information with dozens of jurisdictions -- including Hong Kong and Singapore -- about bank accounts belonging to people subject to taxes in each member country, making it harder to hide.

    Nowhere to Hide

    Tax rates are significantly higher in mainland China

    3. Who does the law apply to?

    Anyone domiciled in China can be seen as a tax resident regardless of physical location. A domicile doesn’t refer to a specific property but an overall assessment of your household registration, family relations and economic interests. For those living abroad -- be it to study, work, travel or something like an extended visit -- if they will eventually return to China after removing these factors, they are seen as having a domicile in China, and thus subject to Chinese tax rules. In addition, under the revised law, foreigners working in China are considered tax residents if they reside in China for more than half a tax year -- at least 183 days -- similar to many other countries.

    4. What does it mean for the pocketbook?

    Investment bankers in Hong Kong, for example, typically earn about 25% to 30% more than those in Shanghai, according to recruiters. Much of that premium gets whittled away by higher living costs, but that’s long been offset by the tax difference: Hong Kong’s highest salary tax rate is only 17%, about a third of the top bracket in mainland China. (Under the new reporting system, the taxpayer would get credit in China for tax paid to Hong Kong, but the difference remains due.) And the revised law doesn’t apply just to paychecks. Income from dividends and property sales are also subject to taxation back home. That’s likely to force many companies to shoulder much of the extra tax burden or risk an exodus of Chinese expats.

    5. What’s the impact been?

    As of mid-July, it appeared that only employees at state-owned companies who had transferred from China were explicitly instructed to pay taxes in China on their 2019 income. China’s Liaison Office in Hong Kong and the State Taxation Administration didn’t respond to faxes seeking comment.

    6. And for workers in other categories?

    It’s unclear how Chinese authorities will apply the law to citizens who were hired outside China or work for private companies. Hong Kong companies, for example, have no obligation to report employment and tax details to any authority outside the city -- that remains an individual’s obligation. Tax advisers including Jason Mi, a partner at Ernst & Young in Beijing, recommend Chinese tax residents “pay attention to the increasingly refined Chinese tax laws and consult with qualified tax accountants or lawyers.”

    7. How much tax revenue are we talking about?

    There’s no official estimate, but there are a lot of Chinese workers abroad as well as sheltered assets and income. For example, Hong Kong has granted more than 340,000 immigration visas to people from mainland China over the past five years, government figures show. Shortly before the revised tax code took effect, Boston Consulting Group estimated China’s overseas wealth at about $1 trillion.

    8. What does this mean for Hong Kong and Singapore?

    It could be a big blow if Chinese expats decide the reward, career boost and adventure of working abroad isn’t worth the extra costs. In Hong Kong, in particular, the developments come as many other foreign expats are considering leaving as China tightens its control of the city, leading to fears of a brain drain.

    9. Doesn’t the U.S. do this?

    Similar. If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad. An American’s worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where he or she resides.

    10. Is there any way to avoid it?

    Some people say they are considering moving back to China to avoid the double whammy of high living costs and high taxes. Another option would be to swap into another passport and cancel one’s Chinese household registration if a person has lived in the place long enough to qualify. Some tax experts say individuals in Hong Kong, especially those who are locally hired, can try to prove to China’s tax bureau that their residency, family ties, economic interests and long-term destinations are closer to the definition of a Hong Kong tax resident than a mainland one.

    11. What about raising salaries?

    Some companies may act to soften the blow by boosting salaries or bonuses, particularly for high-ranking executives. Others will have to take the hit themselves.

     

  18. 12 hours ago, Arauna said:

    This is a reply to all who think china is still the same as 20 years ago:

    That would certainly not be me, but it appears some of your comments were directed at me, so I'll respond.

    12 hours ago, Arauna said:

    The UN sees China as the model to follow and  China has great  influence at the UN. 

    The UN does not generally see China as the model to follow. China has been one of the five permanent members of the UN security council since the inception, with US, UK, France, USSR/Russia. But the primary power of each of the permanent members is not to influence, but the ability to vote down initiatives from other countries. In other words, to keep things from happening.

    China's more recent willingness to speak up, however, does send a chill through the West however. China has spoken out again human rights abuses in several places, even the United States.

    Also, I won't deny that China has more influence. Many more nations have had experience with China in the last 20 years, and several of those countries who have adopted a Chinese "model" have also had similar experiences in reducing human rights issues, raising people out of poverty, infrastructure gains, employment gains, health care and longevity gains, etc.

    The Rwandan case is relevant here. There is an old "Hamiltonian" economic model from a time before the USA was imperialist, and it is credited for much of what some call a human rights miracle in Rwanda (post Tutsi/Hutu of course). There are others who credit the Chinese economic model here. The arguments and how they have spilled over into nearby areas of Africa (mostly Congo and further south) are extremely informative. At any rate, the UN sees a lot more votes and studies in favor of adopting a Chinese model. So this is true. Would love to discuss Africa further with you, perhaps in another post.

    12 hours ago, Arauna said:

    One example: the WHO leader is pro-china as Ethiopia has close links with China.  China lobbied for him to be appointed - why?   Close ties, and he is as corrupt as they can be.

    I don't believe that Tedros A. Ghebreyesus ("Tedros") is corrupt. He has a nearly impeccable record when it comes to heath issues in Africa, successfully managing campaigns against malaria, tb, hiv, ebola, infant death, etc.  Almost all African nations supported him for WHO director, and so did most Asian nations, including China. The UK, US, and Canada wanted their man: David Nabarro. The final vote for "Tedros" of all the nations in the UN was something like 133 out of 185. When it was clear Tedros was about to win, an American advisor to Nabarro came out with a last minute smear campaign. This was just three days before the final vote, and although unverified, it was published in the NYT. For simplicity, here's how Wikipedia puts it:

    • In May 2017, just prior to the WHO election, stories surfaced about an alleged cover-up of three possible cholera epidemics in Ethiopia in 2006, 2009 and 2011. The outbreaks were allegedly wrongly labelled as "acute watery diarrhea" (AWD)—a symptom of cholera—in the absence of laboratory confirmation of Vibrio cholerae in an attempt to play down the significance of the epidemics.[63][64] UN officials said more aid and vaccines could have been delivered to Ethiopia if the outbreaks had been confirmed as cholera. The allegations were made by Larry Gostin, an American law professor who was acting as an adviser to rival candidate David Nabarro from the UK.[64] The African Union delegation to the UN dismissed the report, published in The New York Times, as "an unfounded and unverified defamation campaign, conveniently coming out only days before the election."[65] Tedros denied the allegation of a cover-up and said he was "not surprised at all but quite disappointed" by what he called a "last-minute smear campaign."[64]

    Note that amidst so many great successes, this is the only thing mentioned as a negative about Tedros in the Wikipedia entry. (Although it is also known that he was subjected to many blatant racist attacks; since he is black and Nabarro is white.)

    Even if you go to the UK's BBC, which supported Nabarro, you can read an entire long article about him here. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-51720184 and it's all positive, with barely a mention of the supposed cover-ups. (Note that it would have been just as easy to smear Tedros in the other direction, since the point was that he would have received more money and aid for cholera treatments if he had labeled 100% of the questionable cases as cholera before final laboratory confirmation of "vibrio cholerae." At the core of the complaint is that he could have received more money if he had only been willing to name the disease in question as cholera.

    There have been very corrupt African leaders who have been praised by the West, but when an African leader supplants a white man, or helps too many Africans, he can easily be labeled corrupt. Most of those overly influenced by Western media will just accept it without question.

  19. 4 hours ago, Arauna said:

    Have you studied the council of foreign relations?  Once you know what they are up to I do not think you will trust them ever again!

    I don't trust them at all. And this is more for what they actually stand for openly, rather than the various conspiracies that will develop around any such entity. Their purpose is to try to put a more respected, academic or rational "face" on decisions made by and for the most imperialist Western and Western-supporting powers. (Primarily the United States)

    Even before the UN, they have long been involved in defending policies that support American interests everywhere in the world.

    I used them as a resource here to show what is admitted with respect to China, even by an entity that cares nothing for Chinese interests.

  20. 20 hours ago, Arauna said:

    They are in competition with their own neighbors and have established fishing areas all around their artificial islands.

    There are disputed areas for fishing, and disputes about the artificial islands. But it's interesting to compare the currently claimed boundaries with the maritime boundaries that the United States supported before the Communist Party took over in China in 1949. If you go back to the 1947 maritime border, you will see the border that the US had no problem with the 1947 border as claimed by Chiang Kai-Shek and the Kuomintang government. (In fact those maritime boundaries were in use even before the Kuomintang.)

    The CFR website (Council on Foreign Relations) points to the US State Dept website, state.gov, where one can see a map comparing the pre-Communist borders (1947) with the borders China has currently claimed (2009). You can see they are hardly different at all. But the main thing to note is that the Spratly Islands have always been well within these accepted boundaries, and that's where the artificial islands have been expanded.

    image.png 

    It's not like there has been any war or treaties or land purchases among any of these countries since 1947 that would have resulted in an update to these 1947 boundaries. 

    When there are such disputes the UN often raises the 200 mile limit "tradition" as a starting point, which is then adjusted at adjacent borders which create a conflict, and various underwater natural ridges that might create further adjustments. You can see how valuable it is to own an island where these 200 mile limits aren't encroached by another claim. Look how much water the United States owns in the Pacific based on these United States owned islands (in blue below):

    image.png

    There is more water under US jurisdiction (EEZ) from a few small islands in the Pacific than there is in the entire Gulf of Mexico.

    See: https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/conflict/territorial-disputes-south-china-sea

    and https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/LIS-143.pdf

     

  21. 5 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

    As you can see, the "LIKE" imojis are blocked for just me.

    Strange. I can't see it, but I believe you. I see that the emoji you put on TTH's post is still there from before. It sounds like you don't even see the option, unless you see it, but they don't submit. Sounds like an issue for the admin or Librarian to explain. I'm sure I still have only a limited set of moderator powers because I don't see any place where one can limit the access or functions of only certain people, yet this must be related to how I was given some moderator functionality.

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