JW Insider

I realize I had skipped this question. Revelation 2 and 3 show that various congregations should at all times watch out for false teachings and that they might even go through phases of cleaning out false doctrine, immorality, and increasing their Christian "deeds." This is exactly what Russell and the WTS had tried to do, and it's being done in greater measure all the time. (Revelation 2:18-23) 18 “To the angel of the congregation in Thy·a·tiʹra write: These are the things that the Son of God says, the one who has eyes like a fiery flame and whose feet are like fine copper: 19 ‘I know your deeds, and your love and faith and ministry and endurance, and that your deeds of late are more than those you did at first. 20 “‘Nevertheless, I do hold this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezʹe·bel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and misleads my slaves to commit sexual immorality and to eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent, but she is not willing to repent of her sexual immorality. . . . so that all the congregations will know that I am the one who searches the innermost thoughts and hearts, and I will give to you individually according to your deeds. (Revelation 3:1, 2) . . .“To the angel of the congregation in Sarʹdis write: These are the things that he says who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars: ‘I know your deeds, that you have the name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Become watchful, and strengthen the things remaining that were ready to die, for I have not found your works fully performed before my God. Those were just two of several examples. But they show how Jesus has been head of the congregations, who are responsible for greater accomplishments. The CCJW has done more than any others to accomplish greater deeds to more fully perform the congregation's duties regarding love, faith, ministry, morality, doctrine, and do this on an international scale. We are living in a time when certain methods are just now possible that were not possible before. Being alert to such types of "deeds" have included our ability to go beyond just "house-to-house" and make use of the printed page, transportation, radio, advertising, Internet. Staying alert to doing what we can, when properly motivated, is why we are blessed to be associated in this particular time period. And it seems like a pretty good guess that we are reaching the most critical of critical times. We don't actually "need" any chronology to tell us that it's time to lift our heads up because our deliverance is getting near.

I like this explanation. I think this is the best explanation anyone ever came up with to mesh free will and predestination, both of which seem possible from Jehovah's perspective (based on certain scriptures).

Above, I made a point about trying to make careful use of documents not meant to be leaked to the public. Here it is.... The Opium Wars were one way in the West said "Buy our drugs or we'll kill you!" The BMJ (British Medical Journal) has evolved into a journal that takes on a lot more social issues than just health and medicine, so one needs to be watchful of bias. But it explained very well an embarrassing large cache of internal corporate "Big Tobacco" documents made public through litigation. Turns out that the US and Britain were still intent on using both legal and illegal means to get China to "buy our drugs" from 1915 on with a special new emphasis on 1976 to 1997. (There are much worse examples than what the tobacco companies were doing in China, where the US effectively backed "American interests" by forcing our drugs and drug advertisements on nations that didn't want them.) https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/9/3/292 Excerpts: The first words uttered by James B Duke (1865-1925), the tobacco tycoon who established the empire now known as British American Tobacco, on hearing of the invention of the cigarette machine, were “Bring me the atlas”. When they brought it he turned over the pages. He stopped at the figure “Pop.: 430,000,000”. “That,” he said, “is where we are going to sell cigarettes.” And “that” was China.1 By 1915 BAT had established a foundation for a “monopoly that seemed unshakeable”.2 At the turn of the century the BAT advertising system “left no region of China untouched”.2 China's annual consumption of cigarettes rose from a negligible number in the 1890s to about 100 billion in the early 1930s, a rise ascribed to the business practices of the cigarette industry.3 ... However, the idea of even a small share in such a huge market has long mesmerised the world's transnational tobacco companies (TTCs) Philip Morris (PM), RJ Reynolds (RJR), Lorillard and British American Tobacco (BAT), and its American subsidiary Brown & Williamson (B&W). ... There are discussions, shown from these internal documents, of how these TTC's would use pressure to get around taxation, get around limits based on ongoing smuggling, get around advertising restrictions and still be able to target the young, and target women, and target new smokers, while claiming they were only trying to move their brands into a competitive market of existing smokers. In 1991 Clive Turner, . . . recommended a review of taxation levels across the Asian region to show: “which countries were vulnerable to pressure to raise those levels—and therefore what tactics should be employed to maintain existing levels.”25 The existence of smuggling of TTC brands through Hong Kong also helped TTC negotiate fewer restrictions with China, and helped push those brands even if not officially condoned. In 1998, Jerry Liu of BAT [British American Tobacco] was sentenced to jail for conspiring to accept HK$23 million in bribes and a corrupt HK$10 million loan from cigarette distributors in exchange for huge quantities of duty-free cigarettes to be smuggled onto the Chinese market. Mr Justice Wally Yeung Chun-kuen commented that such crime targeted youngsters by providing them with cheap black market cigarettes.33 ... Claims that advertising only targeted existing smokers were weakened by a PM statement alluding to targeting young adult “starters”.58 In PM inter-office correspondence, Cathy Leiber mentioned targeting young women with Virginia Slims in 1989 at a Pan Asia brand strategy meeting for Hong Kong and Asia. She argued: “we are naturally more interested to learn how you plan to target the emerging young adult female smokers rather than the older female smokers.”59 In a five year marketing plan for 1981-85 involving China, Tso mentioned targeting segments “which are currently small but which may have long term development potential such as a female brand like Virginia Slims.”60 Plainly, the TTCs were well aware of the huge potential to be gained by enticing the largely non-smoking segment of Chinese women into becoming smokers. Their principal tool in this endeavour was advertising: “Demographically, the population explosion in many underdeveloped countries ensures a large potential market for cigarettes. Culturally, demand may increase with the continuing emancipation of women and the linkage in the minds of many consumers of smoking manufactured cigarettes with modernisation, sophistication, wealth, and success—a connection encouraged by much of the advertising of cigarettes throughout the world.”58 The targeting of young males and young adult starters was mentioned more frequently. Opium Wars have had a modern-day counterpart.

I should have probably put this in the religious part of the forum. But I don't think any moderator/admin needs to move it. It's also appropriate that religion has come up, because religion has actually been one of the motivations behind much of the propaganda: Buddhist, Muslim, Falun Gong, Fundamentalist, Christian/JW, etc. It turns out that we are often so steeped in Western propaganda that the very idea seems ludicrous or confusing or dishonest that someone could say that China might not be as bad as it's claimed to be. Without researching the evidence, we might not be aware of just how gullible we've been. From an ethical or religious perspective we might not realize just how judgmental, unsympathetic and unloving we have been. Or how we may not even realize that we have begun to take sides in a political ideology without realizing it. Many people think they are politically neutral, but will quickly put the "inhuman/devilish" label on countries that the West tells them to, but without thinking about the West's motivation for creating those prejudices. There are many more than two, but even if there were only two major sides of today's political spectrums, and all sides were "devilish" to a similar degree, then what is our own motivation for focusing much more on the sins of one of those sides, and less focus on the others? That's not neutrality at all. Also, if we don't know something for a fact, we might end up just repeating the lies that we accept from sources with their own agenda. This can be innocent, but repeating lies can be damaging and unloving to others. And some of what we repeat will no doubt be true and factual, but we should check our motivation for why we would repeat certain one-sided "facts" and not others. As far as it is possible for us, we should love our enemies and be peaceable with all. We should therefore be careful when we repeat claims as facts that could be only partly true, or even outrageously false. This might be a good example of taking sides, and not showing neutrality. Is it really just communism (and atheist philosophy) that has killed millions as part of a devious process by Satan to replace hope in God's kingdom? Were those nations of Christendom who also killed millions somehow not part of a devious process by Satan to replace hope in God's kingdom? And does this lack of neutrality affect how easily we will accept and repeat just about any number of atrocities that the West has told us to believe about China (and Russia, too)? Of course, we could argue that if those numbers are true, then it makes a fair point about human government versus God's kingdom as the replacement for those governments. But what if it turns out that the Western governments who promote those numbers, actually had the same, or even much worse numbers than the actual numbers of atrocities attached to Mao and Stalin? Then would it still be fair to single out China and Russia? Naturally, this will look like a defense of China. I don't care if it looks that way. I just want to have a better sense of the evidence to make sure than when I repeat someone's claims, that I am not just repeating lies and propaganda.

Jesus said that the harvest is the synteleia. (Matthew 13:39) The harvest is a conclusion [synteleia] of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. Therefore, there is no specific time period just before Armageddon. This also removes the contradiction we have created against Jesus' words that no one knows the times and seasons. If we say that we know absolutely that we were preaching in the last "measurable" generation prior to Armageddon, then we would be making Jesus out to be a liar. Anything can happen. The UN could actually ban religion just as we expect to happen in the next few years. But claiming that such a thing must happen just before Armageddon makes Jesus out to be a liar. It also causes trouble with the parable of the wheat and the weeds, where both grow together indistinguishably from a human perspective until the angels reap the world. We should also remember that just because synteleia can be translated as conclusion, that conclusion need not be an extended time period. ("full end" is actually a better translation in the Bible's context.) We could be near the end of a season, and then suddenly everything is concluded, or consummated. You can get near the end of a novel and then in one sentence a conclusion sums up the entire story. We have learned to think of "conclusion" in a sense that was not in the Bible. In the Bible, the "conclusion" is getting near, the "conclusion" is approaching. Even though the disciples were only a few short years from the "conclusion" of a system of things in 70 CE, they weren't "in" the conclusion. The "synteleia" was a destructive conclusion to the entire age. Note how Mark uses the verb form of the same word (synteleo😞 (Mark 13:4) 4 “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are to come to a conclusion?” That translates a better sense of synteleia/synteleo as "conclusion." Literally, the term is about the final end of all things together, therefore the phrase "synteleia" of the "age". Other translations get even closer with their translation of Mark here: (NLT) “Tell us, when will all this happen? What sign will show us that these things are about to be fulfilled?” When the full phrase is used, "synteleia of the age," it's a way of saying "the end of all things." Peter used those exact words instead of the synteleia phrase. (1 Peter 4:7) . . .But the end of all things has drawn close. . . . (and 2 Peter details how this means the [figurative] passing away of the heavens and earth that now exist.) If the NWT had used that phrase "end of all things" the idea of a long drawn out conclusion would be gone. For example: (Matthew 28:20) . . .And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things end of all things.”

"Harvest" seems to be a simple enough concept. But it's a good question because the Bible is about spiritual matters, using physical analogies to help us understand. We don't always expect the same physical analogy to be a perfect fit to all the related spiritual concepts. There are several aspects of the Kingdom, for example, and therefore Jesus used multiple physical analogies that all help build up a clearer understanding. (i.e., "The kingdom is like a . . . "] We live in "historical time" and must use concepts like "harvest time" "thousand year reign" "last days" "last hour" "times of the nations" (gentile times), "this generation." But Jehovah's thoughts are unimaginably higher than our thoughts, especially as he "knows the end from the beginning." Jesus knew the mind of his father, so some of his uses of terms will reflect this. Knowing the end from the beginning can include reading hearts in such a way that Jehovah can already see the "harvest" in someone, even during the "sowing" season. And from this perspective, multiple fulfillments of a prophecy can work out even if not all the details of one fulfillment would fit the next. In addition, since these are spiritual concepts almost everything we know about the Kingdom from its overarching historical perspective and ultimate fulfillment will also have a corresponding fulfillment in our own life, our personal conduct, and our responsibilities in the world and in the Christian Congregation. Isaiah spoke of a kind of "spiritual" paradise in the nation of "Judea/Israel" for example. Paul spoke of already being "resurrected" to a new life, and already being seated in heavenly places. Therefore, in our personal lives, we "reap what we sow." As Paul said, based on Psalms 112: (2 Corinthians 9:10, 11) 10 Now the One who abundantly supplies seed to the sower and bread for eating will supply and multiply the seed for you to sow and will increase the harvest of your righteousness.) 11 In everything you are being enriched for every sort of generosity, which produces through us an expression of thanks to God; In Israel physically, the disciples would have know that there could be a long planting season with various types of seeds to be planted at different times and several harvests across a couple of months depending on what ripened first. So it was especially in the context of Matthew 13 that we get this picture of a sudden, swift harvest carried out by angels. We might not have noticed that if Matthew had not included a second portion of that parable where the disciples asked Jesus to explain. (Matthew 13:29, 30) . . .He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’” Should note that the NWT breaks with its usual translation of kairos as "appointed time" and goes with "season" on this one. This allows for extending the harvest (and therefore the synteleia) over a century or more long period. If this "rule" had been followed, it would have read: 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the appointed time of the harvest, Imagine how much trouble would have been avoided if "season" had been used here for the same word "kairos": (Mark 13:32, 33) 32 “Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father. 33 Keep looking, keep awake, for you do not know when the appointed time is. It would have made it clear that we do not know when the "appointed time" is, but also that we do not know when the "season" is. Compare: (Revelation 14:15, 16) . . .Another angel emerged from the temple sanctuary, calling with a loud voice to the one seated on the cloud: “Put your sickle in and reap, because the hour has come to reap, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” 16 And the one seated on the cloud thrust his sickle into the earth, and the earth was reaped. But this doesn't mean that harvest always had that same "sudden" aspect, controlled from a heavenly master, and angels. In Matthew 13, Jesus was the sower, and the fine seed were the sons of the Kingdom. But in other senses, as mentioned above, Paul could say that he was a sower, and Apollos a waterer, for example. Or even this illustration, where the disciples are reapers of a harvest: (John 4:34-38) 34 Jesus said to them: “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. 35 Do you not say that there are yet four months before the harvest comes? Look! I say to you: Lift up your eyes and view the fields, that they are white for harvesting. Already 36 the reaper is receiving wages and gathering fruit for everlasting life, so that the sower and the reaper may rejoice together. 37 For in this respect the saying is true: One is the sower and another the reaper. 38 I sent you to reap what you did not labor on. Others have labored, and you have entered into the benefit of their labor.”

Not even close to being true. If I were to pick up a random 100 times that the Witnesses have been mentioned recently in popular culture, I'd bet that more than 90% of them are based on the fact that we come to preach at people's doors. Mentions in movies and TV shows often make fun of this. Just saw another one of these last week watching a Grisham book set to a movie. A lawyer comes to the woman's door and after she recognizes him, she says, "Oh, I thought you were one of them Jehovah's Witnesses" or something to that effect.

I think I can also prove that both David's and Solomon's kingdoms were run by men. Could these same men still be used by Jehovah?

Absolutely true. Absolutely false. This isn't about US newspapers. It's about facts on the ground. It's also about researching facts, opinions, perspectives, ideologies, propaganda, etc. This can come from hundreds, if not thousands of journalists (and other sources) from many different countries who have been able to get information out of China. One needs to compare the perspectives of those who love China, hate China, and those who are neutral, or at least somewhere in between. One needs to consider the opinions and evidence of those who live in the many various parts of China, both Chinese (many ethnic varieties) and non-Chinese. One needs to consider the opinions and evidence of those who study China from both the inside and the outside. Ones who have left China, ones who have gone back, ones who will never go back, etc. You can't just get your information from newspapers. Learning about China is a huge project that requires even the most unlikely sources. You have to especially consider what people will admit being surprised about because it goes against their general ideology, and they look for ways to explain it, or (more rarely) adjust their ideology. You should also look at documents about planned propaganda from various sides that was not meant to be leaked to the public. (Also watch out for supposedly secret documents that were planned to be leaked to the public.) This is not about Russia. I have often found that people who need to hang on to a specific political and/or religious ideology will tend to believe almost anything they hear that fits their world view, and will tend to dismiss any evidence that threatens their religious or political ideology. They often give themselves away by making it a religious issue. Did I mention that they often give themselves away by making it a religious issue? It's very easy to fall for propaganda from anywhere, and all nations are guilty of producing propaganda. This should be about facts and evidence. It's very easy to make outrageous claims when no one requires evidence. Evidence? It's almost the opposite. China is actually famous for NOT engaging in these common practices of the U.S. and other Western countries. China has also been quick to completely relieve countries of their debts. Assertions made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. You shouldn't get the impression that revealing facts and evidence that tends to defend an entity or government somehow makes that entity or government automatically good or right in the eyes of the person providing the evidence. Just because a certain government might turn out to be better than they have been previously presented, doesn't mean that this certain government is everything it claims to be. Even if a certain type of government typically tends to do more for the poorer classes, and tends to equalize the difference between upper echelons and the poor, it doesn't mean that this problem is actually solved. But dismissing evidence just because one thinks that accepting it would endanger their Christian and/or Western world view is not even necessary. There is another way in which Biblical/Christian values are highlighted even among atheistic nations that try to do more for the poorer classes. For example, a country with whatever good or bad motivations, might find ways to reduce overall poverty without the expected damaging effects on its overall economy. One immediately sees elites of the world going into "damage control" by producing the worst or the most devious types of propaganda. Economic sabotage and interference will immediately be put in place against countries that nationalize resources where previously a Western-propped puppet dictator could be counted on to help the West steal (or control) those resources. This propaganda often plays on prejudices against poorer classes by race or ethnicity and darker skin colors. This has been played out in Hong Kong, Bolivia, El Salvador, Venezuela, and dozens of other places. The world works on greed, favoritism, prejudice, class warfare, oppression of strong over weak, rich over poor. This is nothing new: (James 2:6) . . .But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who oppress you and drag you before law courts? Some of the "richest" countries in the world in terms of resources have been purposely turned into the poorest in the world: (Proverbs 13:23) . . .The plowed field of the poor yields much food, But it may be swept away by injustice. At any rate, although this was not in a religious portion of the forum, I'm glad you responded, because it is good to begin to distinguish how certain ideas may come from prejudice and religious or ideological propaganda, and certain ideas may come from evidence and facts on the ground.

The most direct meaning needs to make good sense in this context: Jesus predicts a cataclysmic, catastrophic, spectacular event that no one can miss or ignore because it will involve the destruction of the greatest Jewish city its most important landmark, the Temple at Jerusalem. The disciples, quite logically, ask for an advance warning sign that they can watch out for. Because they asked for a sign Jesus repeats warnings about not being fooled or misled by signs because even though many events will happen, the end they are asking about is not yet. They will see "signs" and see people who will make claims and predictions and perform signs and wonders, and they must make sure they are not misled. Signs they might think are evidence of the end, and it might only be the beginning. In this case. Looking for signs will do no direct good because this particular judgment event will come as if by surprise, like a thief in the night. While people are still grinding at the mill, getting married, eating, and drinking, etc. Within that context, of people falsely interpreting signs, making false predictions, making false claims about their knowledge, falsely claiming to be the Messiah themselves, or even many claiming that Jesus is the Messiah but that only they can lead disciples to him with true knowledge only they know about. (Matthew 24:4, 5) . . .In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. Note that it is possible that people will come on the basis of knowing that Jesus is the Christ, (not themselves) therefore even claiming that "Jesus is the Christ" and will still mislead many. This is much more common than people falsely claiming to be Christ themselves. It is more like the people Jesus described as "performing many powerful works in his name" but Jesus would still say, I never knew you. Jesus didn't say that any of these might claim that Jesus had returned invisibly. But the effect was the same. They would claim that they had special knowledge of his whereabouts, as if he had gone off and returned somewhere. And how would the disciples know that these persons who made such claims were wrong? Because Jesus parousia would be highly visible. Unmistakably visible. Think of the brightest lightning you have ever seen, or can imagine: from one extremity of the earth to the other. I don't think it refers a literal physical presence either: (Matthew 24:30, 31) . . .and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity. . . I always thought of it as the "brightness of his glory." The disciples had a glimpse at the Transfiguration. Paul had a glimpse that blinded him. John had a glimpse: (Revelation 1:16) . . .And he had in his right hand seven stars, and out of his mouth a sharp, long, two-edged sword was protruding, and his countenance was like the sun when it shines at its brightest. (Matthew 16:27) . . .For the Son of man is destined to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will recompense each one according to his behavior. Jesus said that even those resurrected or changed in that day, which is part of it, will shine as the sun. (Matthew 13:43) . . .At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father.. . . And it's not just "those with insight" who see this bright manifestation. I think the post responding to Arauna point about this was already copied over to here. (Matthew 24:30) . . .And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. That part does not have to visible to the rest of us. Paul's point in 1 Thess 4:17 for example, was about how those persons with new glorified spiritual bodies, whether resurrected or changed, would meet Jesus Christ. Just how spiritual bodies "see" cannot be imagined by any of us. But when the Bible speaks of angels or heavenly bodies, it often points out how these bodies are glorious, and too glorious for humans to look upon unless the human was somehow shielded from the full "power and glory" of the spiritual body. We know for sure is that the Bible associates Jesus coming on the clouds with "visibility" as in Matt 24:30. When Jesus ascended the first time, the cloud was associated with a point in time when they could no longer see him as he evidently finally disappeared into the clouds. This was obviously not necessary to have Jesus float upwards, but effective for human description. So it seems like some of the glorious effect (like seeing the power and great glory, or being as visible as a flash of unimaginably bright lightning) is also to help the rest of us make sense of it. More than just an understanding of who is behind it all. The harvest must actually be after the wheat and the weeds have continued to grow together until it's time for the angels to gather the chosen ones. This must also be the parousia, synteleia, or "day of judgment" when the angels are sent out to the extremities of the earth to gather (harvest) the chosen ones. This harvest period has been a problem from the beginning of the Watchtower's attempts to explain it. Originally it was a harvest in the 19th century. Barbour had argued for a harvest only from 1874 to the end of it in 1881. Russell settled on 1874 to 1914. When Jesus was considered to be failing to arrive in 1914 for the "visible" parousia, Russell began moving it (and the Gentile Times end) to 1915, and then Rutherford claimed that Jesus had actually arrived/returned in 1918, so that Rutherford changed the range of the harvest from 1878 to 1918. There had also been discussions of how some of the original 1844 crowd must have been wise virgins, especially when they showed themselves ready to NOT give up on chronology, as Miller had. When the new date for the midnight cry was considered to have occurred between 1844 and 1874 (typically 1859/1860) some preliminary harvesting must have taken place from chronology-compliant virgins even before that point. Originally, the trumpet sounds were extended further back towards the beginning of the last days, starting in 1799. For example a very early Watch Tower on the topic (1880, p.152-3) says that trumpet associated with reaping the first fruits of the Gospel Age went back to 1840: As to the time of our change, that it is at, (or during) the sounding of the "last trump,"—the "seventh," Rev. 10:7, and 11:15-18—and after the Lord himself has descended is plainly stated. We need not here repeat the evidences that the "seventh trump" began its sounding A.D. 1840, and will continue until the end of the time of trouble, and the end of "The times of the Gentiles," A.D. 1914, and that it is the trouble of this "Great day," which is here symbolically called the voice of the Archangel when he begins the deliverance of fleshly Israel. "At that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince. (Archangel) which standeth for the children of thy people, and there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation." Dan. 12:1. Nor will we here, again present the conclusive Bible proof that our Lord came for his Bride in 1874, and has an unseen work as Reaper of the first-fruits of this Gospel Age, (Rev. 14:16) in separating between wheat and tares and gathering the living into a condition of readiness for their change. So the harvest here is especially 1874 to 1914. 1914 was of course, as it says above, the end of the time of trouble, and a time when there would be physical manifestations of the parousia, and FLESHLY Israel would be delivered. I can't really see how any of this made sense, because we are still planting. No one continues to plant after the harvest has started. This is also another of those places where trying to extend the period of the synteleia/parousia results in Bible contradictions. Note: (Matthew 13:39-43) . . .The harvest is a conclusion [synteleia] of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion [synteleia] of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. . . . The harvest is the "end of the age" when those who cause stumbling will be pitched into the fiery furnace and the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun. If that has not happened yet, then we are not in the harvest yet. If the wheat and weeds are still growing together, we are not in the harvest yet. The Watchtower admits this: *** w13 7/15 p. 13 par. 16 “Look! I Am With You All the Days” *** Jesus ends his prophecy by saying: “At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.” (Matt. 13:43) When and where will that be? The fulfillment of these words still lies ahead. Jesus foretold, not an activity currently taking place on earth, but a future event occurring in heaven. As the footnote admits, for many years we tried to make this apply to the long period of the parousia when the preaching work occurred. *** w13 7/15 p. 13 “Look! I Am With You All the Days” *** However, Matthew 13:43 points to the time when they will shine brightly in the heavenly Kingdom. Previously, we thought that both scriptures referred to the same activity—the preaching work. But now we move this "harvest" into the future, but still claim we are in the time of the harvest, and planting (the preaching work).

I don't think any Witness would expect to see this change happen when one of the anointed dies. And no one expects to see any who live until the parousia change until a time just a bit prior to Armageddon when the remaining ones of the Bride are expected to join Christ in heaven, and be able to participate in "judging the nations." That's because there is a tiny loophole in 1 Thess. 4:15-17 (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death;16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. The NLT puts it like this: We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died.[fn] It seems quite obvious that Paul was trying to comfort those who knew fellow Christians who had died. One might naturally assume that if some (Group A-"alive") survived to see the parousia begin, then those who had previously died (Group B-"buried") would have to wait untii the resurrection occurred after the parousia was over. So Paul said to comfort those with dead loved ones that those dead (Group B) would not miss out on anything because just before the "rapture" at the parousia, the resurrection of those who had died would happen in time for them to see the parousia, so that they would all go to heaven at the same time with those who were "raptured" or "caught away" (Group A). But the WT doctrine puts no emphasis on the closeness in timing of the resurrection and changing of the two groups. The only concern of the WT doctrine is that Group A does not precede Group B. Group A could ascend 106 or more years after Group B was resurrected. Persons in Group A would not even need their lives to overlap with persons in Group B. The WT doctrine must posit a new group, Group C, who die throughout the 106+ years of an elongated parousia, and are changed upon death, dying "during" the parousia. Paul didn't need to have a Group C, because he apparently thought of the parousia as affecting Group A and Group B at almost exactly the same time.

There are different possible words to use. But when you compare the contexts of Matthew 24, Luke 17/21, and Mark 13 it's pretty obvious that the all the different words refer to a "judgment event." The word for coming/arriving refers to the same "judgment event" as does the word "parousia" or even "synteleia" in Matthew. The other synoptics besides Matthew never use the term parousia, but replace all those instances with a form of come/arrive/happen/occur/be. Still referring to a judgment event in any case. (Matthew 24:3) . . .While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence [parousia] and of the conclusion of the system of things?” (Mark 13:4) 4 “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are destined to come to a conclusion?” (Luke 21:7) 7 Then they questioned him, saying: “Teacher, when will these things actually be, and what will be the sign when these things are destined to occur?” (Luke 17:24-30) 24 For even as the lightning, by its flashing, shines from one part under heaven to another part under heaven, so the Son of man will be. 25 First, however, he must undergo many sufferings and be rejected by this generation. 26 Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage, until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the flood arrived and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise, just as it occurred in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building. 29 But on the day that Lot came out of Sodʹom it rained fire and sulphur from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 The same way it will be on that day when the Son of man is to be revealed. (Matthew 24:27-30) 27 For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 28 Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matthew 24:37-42) 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned; 41 two women will be grinding at the hand mill: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned. 42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU do not know on what day YOUR Lord is coming.

I think they are all resurrected and transformed at about the same time. The WT doesn't say it knows for sure when it starts, but presents the idea that it could happen between 1914 to Armageddon. In fact, if it started in 1918, which was the original opinion after 1878 was dropped, then the idea was that ALL the previously dead anointed were raised at once in 1918, then newly deceased persons are changed in an instant. I was pointing out how the "we don't really know for sure" style of the 2007 article would actually imply that it's not really known when "during the parousia" that this first resurrection starts. "During the parousia" could start as far back as 1914, then, in WT teachings. But even if all resurrections of all the anointed took place in the last two days prior to Armageddon, that would technically also be "during the parousia." The article had made a big point of the word 'during' without pointing out that this is also the Greek word for 'at.' If the translation had been 'at the parousia' it probably would have implied 1914 to the particular writer of that article. If there are three appearances, then that's what it is. But I agree that the Bible does not speak of 3. It definitely speaks of 2 appearances however. But no one says it must be limited to 2. Each one of these appearances is also called a "reign" too. Jesus begins to reign over the congregation in 33. Then he begins to reign in his Kingdom in 1914. Then he begins the thousand year reign in just a few years. The Bible only speaks as if their is one reign of Christ, but again, this could be a matter of interpretation.

Yes. It looks like this matches up best with the scriptures. I think that "synteleia" and "parousia" refer to the same time period. Synteleia can refer to the end of many things together, similar to a phrase that Peter used when he said "the end of all things has drawn close." Note the plural: (1 Peter 4:7) . . .But the end of all things has drawn close.. . . (1 Corinthians 10:11) . . .a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have come. We sometimes think of this as only referring to an end of a time period, but the word can refer more to a "destruction" of things that brings them to their end. Therefore the phrase in Matthew 24:3 could even be stated as: What can you give us as an advance warning sign before this "Visitation" and this destructive "End of the Age?" This is the current WT view on it, of course. (I have scrunched up your comment to fit in the re-quote box.) There are a few issues with it, which is why it comes up. #1 is right of course, but it ignores the fact that this is only the first step in gaining proper subjects for a "Kingdom." The scriptures make so much of the fact that Jesus has been given ALL AUTHORITY at his resurrection. He has conquered something that makes him above all other powers in the Universe except Jehovah. He is called king of kings after 33 CE. So why are we so reluctant to give Jesus credit for what he has accomplished? Note how the WT view is the REVERSE of the Bible's view here: (Ephesians 1:19-22) . . .It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his strength, 20 which he exercised toward Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come. 22 He also subjected all things under his feet and made him head over all things with regard to the congregation, In the WT view, Jesus is made head over all things with regard to the congregation for now, but by 1914 he will also come into his Kingdom authority with regards to every government [kingdom], authority and power and lordship. And as you know, Ephesians 1 is only one example of this. There are several others. Including 1 Timothy 6:16 already calling Jesus the "king of kings" in the first century. The Bible writers honored Jesus new position of authority over all governments of the earth, and all powers and lorships in heaven, too! *** it-1 p. 1136 Honor *** Since it was Jehovah God who highly exalted his Son, all who refuse to acknowledge Jesus Christ as the immortal King of kings and Lord of lords dishonor the Father. Because of who he is and what he has accomplished, the Son deserves honor and loyal support. (Joh 5:23; 1Ti 6:15, 16; Re 5:11-13) But,can you imagine the Watchtower ever highlighting the fact that Jesus was "king of kings" in the first century? Instead we get statements like the following: *** w94 5/1 p. 17 par. 9 Kingdom Proclaimers Active in All the Earth *** At the second Cedar Point convention, in 1922, Brother Rutherford highlighted the fact that at the end of the Gentile Times, in 1914, ‘the King of glory had taken unto himself his great power and had begun to reign.’ Next, he put the issue squarely to his audience, saying: “Do you believe that the King of glory has begun his reign? Then back to the field, O ye sons of the most high God! . . . Herald the message far and wide. The world must know that Jehovah is God and that Jesus Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords. This is the day of all days. Behold, the King reigns! You are his publicity agents.” Yes, in 1922, Rutherford began to speak of Jesus taking his power in 1914 as King, and cleansing the lips of the temple class, and it appeared that this was the first time Rutheford began to move the official date of Christ's reign from 1878. And even quotes such as these must forget that the actual words at the assembly included statements like: “In 1878 God’s favor was withdrawn from the nominal systems. From that time on Brother Russell and the brethren who supported him went throughout the land . . . . Do you believe it? Do you believe that the King of glory is present, and has been since 1874? Do you believe that during that time he has conducted his harvest work? Do you believe that he has had during that time a faithful and wise servant [Russell] through whom he directed his work and the feeding of the household of faith? Do you believe that the Lord is now in his temple, judging the nations of earth? Do you believe that the King of glory has begun his reign? “Then back to the field, O ye sons of the most high God! Gird on your armor! Be sober, be vigilant, be active, be brave. Be faithful and true witnesses for the Lord. Go forward in the fight until every vestige of Babylon lies desolate. Herald the message far and wide. The world must know that Jehovah is God and that Jesus Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords. This is the day of all days. Behold, the King reigns! It's true that Jesus could already be king of kings since 33CE, and then some great event in the future may move his followers to speak as if his kingship has just been renewed in some power way: "Jesus has now taken unto himself his great power and had begun to reign." Just as the Psalmist could look at a new Temple, or a great victory and say that "Jehovah has become King." But nothing was seen in 1914 about Jesus taking his power and becoming king of kings. It took Rutherford nearly 10 years before he began moving that "kingship" date from 1878 to 1914. During 1914, Rutherford must have seen 1914 as a failure. After it passed, Russell even changed the end of the Gentile Times to 1915. Rutherford specifically admitted later that no one had discerned what had happened in 1914 or 1918. The word "synteleia" itself (meaning the ending of things together) would not fit 1914. And "parousia" doesn't fit because Jesus only spoke of a very visible visitation for judgment, resurrections, and gathering the chosen ones. It's easy to claim it all happened invisibly, but it doesn't fit the scriptures. Even if parousia was being used in its most simple sense of an arrival and subsequent presence, there is nothing "invisible" about this particular visitation and presence. It would be like trying to claim that lightning is invisible.

If you look up the phrase "interesting possibiity" in the Watchtower Library you will also find this statement: *** w07 1/1 p. 28 par. 12 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! *** Could it, then, be reasoned that since Jesus was enthroned in the fall of 1914, the resurrection of his faithful anointed followers began three and a half years later, in the spring of 1918? That is an interesting possibility. Although this cannot be directly confirmed in the Bible, it is not out of harmony with other scriptures that indicate that the first resurrection got under way soon after Christ’s presence began. Before and after the statement above, the article also said: *** w07 1/1 p. 27 par. 9 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! *** Reasonably, then, anointed ones who die before Armageddon are resurrected sometime between 1914 and Armageddon. *** w07 1/1 p. 30 par. 18 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! *** God’s Word does not disclose a precise date for the first resurrection, . . . . The preference in the article was for a date between 1914 and 1935, but no definitive reason could be given. Just "interesting possibilities." He was writing that the anointed dead would rise first at the parousia. At the time, all Christians were considered either anointed or fleshly/unspiritual. He was writing because some were concerned that the parousia might be so close, that it would be a shame if some Christians died or were killed, because then they might then miss this most spectacular event in all of history. So Paul said to "comfort one another" with these words that showed that no one would miss anything, because when the parousia arrives, the dead [anointed] will rise first, and then those who were still alive at the parousia would be instantly changed together at the same time. The timing would be so close that it would be as if all of them were meeting together "mid-air" to be with Christ forever from that point on. Paul was just trying to make it clear that no one would miss a thing. 100% of the anointed dead who died before the parousia begins. From about 33CE on up to the time of the parousia. (I used the term apostles, prophets and nobodies, because of the context of 1 Cor 12, where all these different types of persons make up the anointed "body" of Christ.) Same here. Seems correct to me. But we aren't the ones who make that ultimate selection. And the scriptures make a reasonable case for that, but not definitive. I wasn't talking about what you are worthy of. No human is worthy. And that goes for "anointed" or even "true anointed" as you call them. No "true anointed" is worthy; it is by undeserved kindness they are called. Anything can happen. In 10 minutes or in 10 centuries. We don't have to wait until certain signs line up and make it seem inevitable. Doing this can make one desensitized when and if those particular signs clear up, and we then think we have to wait for something more specific, or something worse. People look at Covid-19 and say: "This is it!" or at least that this must be a part of the "end-time" process. It could very well be. But we shouldn't be looking at any sign that way. We know our deliverance is getting near (and nearer all the time). If Covid-19 clears up in a couple years and people start saying that things look peaceful and secure again, it could just as easily happen in the middle of that more peaceful time. It could also easily happen in the middle of a pandemic.

Yes. That's my opinion. (It's also stated as a possibility in the Watchtower, but I think most people missed it.) I noticed something funny when that article came out. I made it a point to bring it up with all the pioneers and young baptized persons in service. And this was in two distant parts of the country, as I spend time in my parents' congregation, too. It turns out you can ask most pioneers and 20-year-baptized Witnesses when was the first resurrection, and most will still say 1914/1918/1919. Then if you immediately follow up with "When was Paul resurrected?" they think it's a trick question and go back to the first century, often at his death in prison in the 60's CE. It throws off elders, too, because nobody usually hears the question put in practical terms like: "When was the Apostle Paul resurrected?" I think people on this forum would give a more accurate sense of the Watchtower's teaching than most people in our congregation. I don't think Paul, while living, considered himself and the Twelve as those who are dead in union with Christ who would rise first. He thought of the possibility that he would live to the parousia (judgment/resurrection day) which could happen at any time, as a surprise, like a thief in the night. But since no one knew the day or hour, and it could be immediately after he wrote this, or thousands of years in the future, he also discussed what would happen if he happened to die before the parousia. Paul thought all anointed were in union with Christ, even the "lowliest" of them: (1 Corinthians 12:12-26) . . .For just as the body is one but has many members, and all the members of that body, although many, are one body, so too is the Christ. 13 For by one spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink one spirit. 14 For, indeed, the body is made up not of one member but of many. 15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am no part of the body,” that does not make it no part of the body. ...19 If they were all the same member, where would the body be? 20 But now they are many members, yet one body. 21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I do not need you,” or again, the head cannot say to the feet, “I do not need you.” 22 On the contrary, the members of the body that seem to be weaker are necessary, 23 and the parts of the body that we think to be less honorable we surround with greater honor, so our unseemly parts are treated with greater modesty, . . . Nevertheless, God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that had a lack, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but its members should have mutual concern for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all the other members suffer with it; or if a member is glorified, all the other members rejoice with it. Christ was the firstfruits and all the other anointed who died (apostles, prophets, or "nobodies") would rise "first" just before those who survive to the time of parousia, who would then be changed together, at the same time, so they could all meet the Lord in the air, together. Of course. Anything is possible. Jehovah sees all these persons as alive, in the "book of life," and knows what their "heart" is still "speaking," although not physically alive: (Revelation 6:9-11) . . .I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness they had given. 10 They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been. Similar to how Abel's blood was crying out to Jehovah from the ground. (Genesis 4:10) . . .At this He said: “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood is crying out to me from the ground. We are not the judge of who ends up where, whether heaven or earth. Even those who are "sure" they are anointed and have been told that this means they will be in heaven instead of earth. I listened to a president of the Watch Tower Society in the final year of his life sometimes praying about how much he would miss the earth when he died. Jesus mentioned those who would be seated in the back and called up to the front by him. (Matthew 22:8-10) . . .The marriage feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore, go to the roads leading out of the city, and invite anyone you find to the marriage feast.’ 10 Accordingly, those slaves went out to the roads and gathered all they found, both wicked and good; and the room for the wedding ceremonies was filled with those dining. (Matthew 25:10-12) . . .The virgins who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut. 11 Afterward, the rest of the virgins also came, saying, ‘Sir, Sir, open to us!’ 12 In answer he said, ‘I tell you the truth, I do not know you.’ (Luke 14:7-11) . . .He then told the invited men an illustration when he noticed how they were choosing the most prominent places for themselves. He said to them: 8 “When you are invited by someone to a marriage feast, do not recline in the most prominent place. Perhaps someone more distinguished than you may also have been invited. 9 Then the one who invited you both will come and say to you, ‘Let this man have your place.’ Then you will proceed with shame to take the lowest place. 10 But when you are invited, go and recline in the lowest place, so that when the man who invited you comes, he will say to you, ‘Friend, go on up higher.’ Then you will have honor in front of all your fellow guests. 11 For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.” The first shall be last and the last first. So all we know is that Jehovah knows how to give good gifts to his children. He knows how to fulfill the desires of our hearts. His thoughts are higher than ours, and we do not know ourselves as well as Jehovah knows us. You have often expressed doubts about your own place in Christianty, and you definitely don't think of yourself as a true anointed. But this does not mean that things won't change for you in the next 5 to 10 years ( 😉 ) and you will find yourself among the apostles in heaven or in the bosom position of Abraham or on earth looking at the newly descended New Jerusalem. There are plenty of things we can't say for sure, and there are intriguing scriptures that might provide some things to think about. (Matthew 11:11, 12) . . .Truly I say to you, among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater than John the Baptist, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press, and those pressing forward are seizing it. (Hebrews 11:8-10) . . .By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place he was to receive as an inheritance; he went out, although not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as a foreigner in the land of the promise as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the very same promise. 10 For he was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is God. (Hebrews 11:13-16) 13 In faith all of these died, although they did not receive the fulfillment of the promises; but they saw them from a distance and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land. 14 For those who speak in such a way make it evident that they are earnestly seeking a place of their own. 15 And yet, if they had kept remembering the place from which they had departed, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they are reaching out for a better place, that is, one belonging to heaven. Therefore, God is not ashamed of them, to be called on as their God, for he has prepared a city for them. (Luke 16:22) 22 Now in course of time the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom [position] of Abraham.. . . (Acts 2:29-34) . . .Men, brothers, it is permissible to speak with freeness of speech to you about the family head David, that he died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. . . . 31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in the Grave nor did his flesh see corruption. . . . . 34 For David did not ascend to the heavens,. . . (Matthew 22:31, 32) 31 Regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, who said: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob’? He is the God, not of the dead, but of the living.” (Matthew 17:3, 4) . . .And look! there appeared to them Moses and E·liʹjah conversing with him. 4 Then Peter said to Jesus: “Lord, it is fine for us to be here. If you wish, I will erect three tents here, one for you, one for Moses, and one for E·liʹjah.”

Apparently this is Paul saying that the crown is reserved as a reward for "that day." In other words, in that future day, the "judgment day." I don't see how Paul, around 60 CE could say that a crown is now reserved to be given him as a reward on a day back in 33 CE.

Someone (not me, probably a moderator) moved the "PAROUSIA/ADVENT" portion of this topic to a new place. It was partly related to the 1,000 year reign topic, which will apparently stay here for now.

Technically, Bible Students never expected an invisible return of Christ, either in 1874 or 1914. It was only around 1876 that Russell "learned" that Jesus had returned invisibly in 1874. Even in 1916 when Russell died, he and other Bible Students still thought Jesus had returned invisibly in 1874. So no one was expecting an invisible return in 1914 either. The official "parousia" date was still 1874 until about 1943. By then, of course, it was too late to "expect" Jesus in 1914. Close enough, but still not exactly, of course. In 1879, when the Watch Tower magazine was still pointing to 1881 as the date for their resurrection or "rapture," the change from a physical to a spiritual body would be necessarily "visible" in the sense that "Bible Students" ** believed that they would disappear from the earth, either leaving behind a "dead" physical body, or nothing. Thousands would see the glorious manifestation of the Christ by October 1881 with their new spiritual eyes (and spiritual bodies) in heaven. But this would also leave behind either thousands of dead bodies, or thousands of missing persons. Hard to keep something like that hidden.

True. But the Bible makes very clear that the parousia has its effect on those who do not know God, too. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10) 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith. . . The only way around this, is to claim something that the Bible never claims: that the "parousia" is different from "that day," "the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven" and "the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones." The Bible speaks of only one time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones" and that day is sometimes called the parousia. Notice the parousia tied to the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones here: (2 Thessalonians 2:1) . . .However, brothers, concerning the presence [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him,. . . Notice the parousia tied to the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones here: (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) . . .we the living who survive to the presence [parousia] of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. Notice the parousia tied to the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones here: (Matthew 24:27-37) . . .so the presence [parousia] of the Son of man will be. . . .30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity. . . . 36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence [parousia] of the Son of man will be. (Mark 13:26, 27) 26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity. Notice the parousia tied to the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones here: (1 Thessalonians 3:13) 13 so that he may make your hearts firm, blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the presence [parousia] of our Lord Jesus with all his holy ones. Therefore, the scriptures about the parousia and the day of Jehovah in the previous post still stand, too. The Bible makes no separation of the parousia from the revelation/manifestation of Jesus Christ in that day. That day, that parousia, comes upon the righteous as well as the unrighteous at the same time: (Luke 17:26-30) 26 Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be in the days of the Son of man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the Flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise, just as it occurred in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building. 29 But on the day that Lot went out of Sodʹom, it rained fire and sulfur from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 It will be the same on that day when the Son of man is revealed. (Matthew 24:37, 38) 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence [parousia] of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, Notice that the parousia is not paralleled with the days of Noah, but "that day" when Noah entered into the ark. Notice that the day the Son of man is revealed is not paralleled with the days of Lot, but "on the day" that Lot went out of Sodom. The Bible never separates the revelation/manifestation from the parousia. In fact, the Bible uses the expression "manifestation of his parousia."

No. The parousia/advent was to be recognized by everyone, good and bad, righteous and unrighteous. There would be no mistaking it. It was not invisible. When Jesus told the disciples that the buildings of the Temple would one day come tumbling down, the disciples immediately knew that this spectacular highly visible event was related to his parousia (visitation/advent/coming). They knew that the very term "parousia" was about the arrival of Jesus Christ in royal power, when the Kingdom of Israel was to be restored. We also know that the disciples had assumed that Jesus would somehow make this happen in his own lifetime and their own lifetime. When Jesus kept saying he would die first, they had trouble understanding. So when they asked for a sign of his "parousia" and the "synteleia" [ending of things together] they were asking for some kind of advance warning so that they could find safety when their "world" came spectacularly crashing down around. Jesus warned that some would be saying that Jesus had already arrived even though they couldn't see him at the moment. Jesus therefore warned against listening to anyone who might claim that an invisible parousia had already started. He said not to believe anyone who claimed he had returned but that no one could see him just yet, because the parousia would be like lightning, sudden and brightly visible from one horizon to the other horizon. (Matthew 24:23-27) 23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned you. 26 Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence [parousia] of the Son of man will be. Around 1876, Nelson Barbour was telling Charles T. Russell and others: "Look! Here is the Christ." He thought he was going to come visibly like a flash of lightning, but now he believed Jesus was here but invisible. "He is present, but you can't see him. He is here, since October 1874, but effectively hidden in the inner rooms. Barbour and his friends were so anxious to be right about their prediction that Christ would arrive in October 1874, that they simply declared that he was here, even though he hadn't shown up. (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) . . .For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence [parousia] of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward [then] we the living who are surviving will, together with them [at the same time], be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air;. . . The LEB translation, with full support of the Greek, translates like this: (1 Thess 4:17, LEB) Then we who are alive, who remain, will be snatched away at the same time together with them in the clouds for a meeting with the Lord in the air, and thus we will be together with the Lord always. How could the "parousia" not be a visible spectacular event if persons from earth will be snatched away from earth to heaven at the same time as the resurrection to heaven? The scriptures also tie the parousia directly to "the Lord's Day," "Judgment Day" as it were. There is no scripture that implies the parousia is separate from the "Lord's day," or "day of Jehovah" or "day of Christ." The separation is artificial so that the idea of an invisible parousia can be made to work. Note in the very next verses after the mention of the parousia in 4:15-17 that Thessalonians goes immediately into stating: (1 Thessalonians 5:1-3) . . .Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know very well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night. 3 Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them, just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape. So the parousia is to be seen by those who will suffer sudden destruction, not just those who see with spiritual insight. Paul says the same thing in the second letter: (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 2) . . .However, brothers, concerning the presence [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you 2 not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here. Notice that it is the parousia that is tied to "our being gathered together to him." But just as Jesus warned, we shouldn't be shaken or deceived by anyone making claims about this parousia as if it is already here, before it is obvious: (2 Thessalonians 2:8) 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence [parousia]. Not just those with spiritual insight but the lawless one too is revealed by the manifestation of his parousia. It can't be invisible if it is going to be obvious to those without spiritual insight. (Revelation 1:7) . . .Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. . . . (1 Timothy 6:14) . . .observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, (2 Timothy 4:1) 4 I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his Kingdom: (2 Timothy 4:8) 8 From this time on, there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not to me only, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation. Translating the "active participle" as if only in the past, can be misleading. The Greek can just as well refer to his future manifestation and can be translated as follows, which is probably better considering the immediate context: (2 Timothy 4:8, NET) Finally the crown of righteousness is reserved for me. The Lord, the righteous Judge, will award it to me in that day - and not to me only, but also to all who have set their affection on his appearing. (Titus 2:12, 13) . . .It trains us to reject ungodliness and worldly desires and to live with soundness of mind and righteousness and godly devotion amid this present system of things, 13 while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of our Savior, Jesus Christ, (1 Corinthians 1:7, 8 ) . . .while you are eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ. 8 He will also make you firm to the end so that you may be open to no accusation in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 1:7) . . .in order that the tested quality of your faith, of much greater value than gold that perishes despite its being tested by fire, may be found a cause for praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 4:13) . . .so that you may rejoice and be overjoyed also during [at] the revelation of his glory. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-2:1) . . .will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, . . . 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, . . . 2 1 However, brothers, concerning the presence [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you 2 not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here. (I know we already covered 2 Thess 2:1-2, but it is good to see it in context to more easily see that the parousia, revelation of the Lord Jesus, day of Jehovah, the time when he comes to be glorified, that day, etc., are all the same as the time of the visible revelation/manifestation.) Also, our current parousia doctrine creates several minor contradictions. For example: (James 5:7) . . .Be patient then, brothers, until the presence [parousia] of the Lord. Look! The farmer keeps waiting for the precious fruit of the earth, exercising patience over it until the early rain and the late rain arrive. If the parousia had started in 1914, why would we only show patience UNTIL 1914. The same goes for Jesus saying he would be with us UNTIL the "synteleia." (Matt 28:20). For example, Rutherford even claimed for many years that the holy spirit was no longer in operation with Rutherford or with the organization, because Jesus had already arrived by 1918, and the holy spirit was only there to fill in the gap until Jesus arrived. The Bible never speaks of an "invisible" parousia, except to warn us against the idea.

By now, most people have heard about the "Weeger" issues in China. There are supposedly concentration camps, torture camps, medical experiments, thousands imprisoned, etc. When someone changed thousands to "for all we know, there might even be millions" the new number changed to "millions" without Western media even batting an eyelash. So here's an opinion about it, which focuses on Xinjiang Province (also known as the “Uyghur Autonomous Region”)...There’s a lot of background to this, but the basic problem is geopolitical: The US wants to sabotage the growth of China as a world power in favor of the Western model of capitalism and imperialism.What imperialist Western elites see as China’s weakest links are its new Belt & Road Initiative (BRI: an infrastructure project to expand high-speed rail, telecommunications, and both dirty and renewable energy worldwide) and its relations with other Asian and Muslim countries (which are increasingly friendly). There has been a “New Cold War” against China since Obama’s/Hillary’s “Pivot to Asia” strategy (of which the TPP and the deployment of THAAD in Korea were a part), but especially renewed now since Trump’s propaganda and trade war. China is threatened by HUNDREDS of US military bases and nukes surrounding it (and Russia, Iran, etc.)!The basis for the propaganda has always existed, of course: “Tiananmen Square was a heartless massacre proving the unpopularity of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP),” “Hong Kong is being brutalized by Beijing,” “China is genociding Tibet,” and so on. I think most of these issues are lies — completely fabricated — or distortions of reality not presenting the whole story. The CCP, for example, is one of the most (perhaps THE most) popular political parties in the world, which hilariously perplexes international polling agencies and Harvard researchers time and time again.[See “Understanding CCP Resilience” by Harvard University. The writing is biased, but the researchers are forced to admit the fact that the Chinese people — and particularly underprivileged minorities — are in love with the Party.]This claim — “China is genociding Muslims” — is no different. The “1 million Uyghurs in concentration camps” and “forced to eat pork” are complete fabrications. They were alleged by one US official, and then some Western diplomats went along with it. Most of the recent “reports” and “statistics” (which extrapolated numbers to ALL of Xinjiang from a localized study!) originate from US-funded think-tanks, usually involving a man named Adrian Zenz. Zenz is a right-wing Christian fundamentalist who believes that he has been “led by God” against the unspeakable evil of China. In Western media, when they write “reports show” such and such, find their source; it’s typically Adrian Zenz.[See: https://thegrayzone.com/2019/12/21/china-detaining-millions-uyghurs-problems-claims-us-ngo-researcher/ ]It has not merited an official statement by the UN. In fact, nearly every Muslim-majority country has praised China’s response to the rise of Islamic extremism and terrorism in Xinjiang Province.Speaking of which, how did this extremism arise in the first place? One answer is poverty and lack of adequate education. The other is the promotion and funding of Jihadist terrorist groups by the US and the West since the 1980s, first against the Soviet Union, and then again recently in Afghanistan, Pakistan, former Yugoslavia, Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Syria, Libya, and China — all of which have sizable Muslim populations. This includes some fundamentalist propaganda and especially weapons from U.S. allies in Turkey, Qatar, and Saudi Arabia (but which are now beginning to move closer to China).Everybody knows the history, how Obama expanded the wars into Syria and Libya by arming Jihadists, how Hillary admitted we aided Al-Qaeda, and how, going back even further, the New York Times praised Osama bin Laden himself on the cover as our “freedom fighter.” We also don’t need to review the aftermath. We all know how devastating it was, how many millions lost their lives due to the civil wars and US bombs. We also know how many lies we were told, about “weapons of mass destruction” and “chemical warfare.”China responded to Islamic extremism in Xinjiang Province — which shares borders with Pakistan, India, etc. — through poverty alleviation, education centers, and arrest/punishment for crimes (such as stabbing) or possessing incriminating materials (propaganda, knives, etc.). Most Muslim countries believed this response to be unprecedentedly good. Pakistan went so far as to say that this should be the “model for antiterrorism.”[See also: https://medium.com/@leohezhao/xinjiang-facts-vs-fiction-bdc2aa403c91 ]Another thing to research (with a skeptical eye of course) is the 2009 Urumqi Riots in China. These incidents, in which many ethnically Han Chinese people were arrested for retaliating against Muslim violence in Xinjiang, were ugly and brutal, and scarred the CCP and all the peoples of China, especially Muslims. Many Uyghurs also fled China to fight alongside ISIS and Al-Nusra “rebels” (Al-Qaeda) in Syria. This is well-documented! And these are typically the Uyghurs quoted in explosive “news reports” crying “My husband was murdered!!!”Some more facts: China has built thousands of mosques, both within China and throughout the Middle East and Africa. How can this be explained? The Uyghur population has nearly DOUBLED since 1990, as minority ethnic groups (like them) are guaranteed certain privileges and exemptions by the Chinese Constitution in order to (as the party states) “combat Han chauvinism.” How is this possible if they are being “genocided”? Road signs and schools use Arabic and Uyghur scripts along with Chinese. Many Chinese and Uyghurs intermarry! Do those sound like “genocide”?In short, there’s a real propaganda campaign ramping up. It’s very possible (and very stupid) that a war with China is brewing. The illegal actions against Huawei (the world leader in 5G technology) are yet another example. Unfortunately, our entire social media experience from the top-down is manipulated by elites, the ones who own it and all the other media we consume.It is extremely tempting to fall into peer pressure these days and deny real research about this issue because it makes one look like a "genocide denier." Revealing what the research shows makes one seem "evil" for not following what others think. And that is exactly how propaganda works in the modern age, all while the details and research required to become informed are increasingly in the hands of mega-monopolies like Google and CNN. Sometimes, one can learn from the mistakes of these same media companies, too. Twitter, Facebook, and Youtube can quickly ban someone who get complaints against them for showing evidence that goes against Western propaganda. SkyNews just ran a story about claimed Uyghur torture, and they used footage of prisoners in blindfolds. Embarrassingly, it turned out to be SkyNews' own footage from a few years earlier of a prisoner transfer of Han Chinese, not Uyghurs. It had nothing to do with torture, or Muslims. (Blindfolding prisoners during transfers is common practice in many countries.) The original report knew this, but the footage was re-used to fit Western propaganda. There have been many such examples. Another time it was footage of the U.S. capturing Muslims that had nothing to do with China or Uyghurs. Another time it was footage from Thailand or Indonesia repurposed to supposedly show Muslim Uyghurs in China. People have pointed out mistakes in claiming certain persons were Uyghurs just because they looked like they were wearing Muslim garb, which turned out to be a style from Muslims unique to other countries.

I wouldn't have known that those images were from The Good Place until just a couple of weeks ago. Just started watching it. Thought the first few episodes were quite funny.

Sometimes, it's what the scientist says that ain't necessarily so. (Apologies to "Porgy and Bess") Of course, we've all learned that people once came over from Asia to North America on a land/ice "bridge" between what's now Russia and Alaska. There weren't any road signs up back then, so they had trouble keeping their Bering Strait. 😊

The linked article includes this: “I think with a combination of good public health measures, a degree of global herd immunity and a good vaccine, which I do hope and feel cautiously optimistic that we will get, I think when we put all three of those together, we will get control of this, whether it’s this year or next year. I’m not certain,” he said. I heard that evidence from some countries is showing that the levels of antibodies in any population, even the hardest hit cities, so far have never been enough to produce herd immunity, and the probability that the antibodies don't last will also make herd immunity impossible anyway. And recombinations and evolution of the virus might mean that vaccines will only be of temporary help.