JW Insider

I believe that when a person reads Furuli carefully they will see evidence for such traits of narcissism. And as long as I am saying this, I think that what came through in the subtext of his books also appealed to persons having similar traits. The persons who had been Furuli's most vocal defenders in the past, like a person named "scholar JW" is an example who has shown the same extreme indifference to the "counsel of evidence." Any correction provided by evidence was always thrown back as if the reputation of the sources of correction needed to be trashed and dishonored for daring to correct them. Examples of this type of reaction to counsel and evidence abound in discussion forums, too. And any and all of us can fall into that trap of pride: (But keep an eye on yourself, for fear you too may be tempted.)

Furuli, for example, didn't like the fact that all the hundreds of Neo-Babylonian scholars, 100 percent of them, told him that he was wrong to believe that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BCE. So he focused on one piece of evidence that clearly shows the 607 date is wrong. And what does he resort to? He trashed the scholars, he trashed the museum curators. He accused them of fraud, even accused unspecified persons of sanding down evidence of the original cuneiform and replacing it with markings that makes it fit their own scheme. (He doesn't bother to point out that this is only one of thousands of pieces of evidence that supports a 587/6 BCE date and that there is still absolutely zero evidence going against that accepted date, Biblical or secular.)

Now moving forward to the present, there is evidence that Furuli was being told he was wrong about "higher education" and that he was wrong to want to stick with "Fred Franz" interpretations when the rest of the GB had already moved on from that. He would have seen the example of "A. Smith" that Brother Splane spoke about at the 2014 Annual Meeting as "counsel" against his own view that hadn't changed. He clearly compared himself to Fred Franz, and wanted to continue that role. If he was a narcissist, then he would have seen the need to trash and dishonor these counselors. And he did! He needed to project back onto them, some of the same traits that he should be able to see in himself, but can't.

Especially in the case where he knows he is about to be "proven" wrong to the worldwide congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, he would be forced to trash those who had decided he was wrong. Narcissists simply cannot accept counsel or evidence that says they are wrong.

I could be wrong, but that's how I currently see it.

I think that there may be a way to understand Rolf Furuli in terms that might sound very judgmental. Of course, it's always problematic to try to put labels on people "out loud" in public, even though we can't avoid evidence that leads to such judgments that most of us keep to ourselves.

So the following should be taken in the sense of trying to readjust a person who has taken a false step before he is aware of it. Or at least there is a lesson here, in 20-20 hindsight, about how such a person might have been helped had he taken to heart good spiritual counsel he may have received from others.

(Galatians 5:25-6:5) ²⁵ If we are living by spirit, let us also go on walking orderly by spirit. ²⁶ Let us not become egotistical, . . .  ¹Brothers, even if a man takes a false step before he is aware of it, you who have spiritual qualifications try to readjust such a man in a spirit of mildness. But keep an eye on yourself, for fear you too may be tempted. . . . ³ For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he is deceiving himself. ⁴ But let each one examine his own actions . . .  ⁵ For each one will carry his own load.

There is a subtext to all of Furuli's books that might help explain his latest action. That subtext says: "I don't like being told that I am wrong and I will go to furthest possible extreme to project blame back onto the ones pointing out where I am wrong."

It's true that no one likes being told they are wrong, especially when we think the evidence shows we are right. But If two people or groups disagree, and one can show the other that the evidence shows they are in the wrong, then the normal response should be to consider that evidence and thank the person for pointing it out and use it to look for areas of agreement. And if the person thinks the evidence is not enough, then they can at least "agree to disagree" and move on in a spirit of mildness.

But it is even more true today, as in Paul's day, when Paul warned Timothy to watch out for the following: 

(2 Timothy 3:2-4) ² For men will be lovers of themselves, . . .  boastful, haughty, . . . .³ having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, ⁴ betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride. . .

The Insight book starts out defining PRIDE like this:

*** it-2 p. 681 Pride ***
PRIDE
Inordinate self-esteem; an unreasonable feeling of superiority as to one’s talents, . . . rank, and so forth; disdainful behavior or treatment; insolence or arrogance of demeanor; haughty bearing. . . . Some synonyms of pride are egotism, arrogance, haughtiness.

The combination of several of those traits should remind of the counsel in Proverbs about a kind of "insolent pride" as some translations/commentaries would put it. One Bible commentator who comments online has shown how this insolent pride matches the current term "narcissism."

9 hours ago, Nathaniel Compton said:

That's why he wrote the book to begin with, since he had already been removed as an overseer.

Talk of removing him as an overseer goes a ways back, but I never heard that this was actually done. If it was done recently this could even explain a few things. But I couldn't tell for sure if this was just your opinion or a guess.

3 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

I wonder what he'll do now. Write more controversial books? Fizzle out?

My bet is on fizzle.

Thanks for the info.

On 6/16/2020 at 4:56 AM, 4Jah2me said:

Because the CCJW say we are in the 'final part of the final day', so it doesn't leave much time for more history in this old system.

This post was an allusion to a quote TTH had heard or had seen about how future historians will be asked what part of 2020 they specialized in. It was in a non-JW topic. I moved it here, because it was a question about how TTH resolves this statement with the religious beliefs of JWs. JW discussions are better suited to the JW discussion clubs.

2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

So you both are familier with James O'Keefe? That is nice to hear.

I'm no fan. To get to the top of his particular heap, he had to cut a few corners, and cut and paste a lot of video to get some of the ideas across that he wanted to promote. Some of those ideas were lies, and I'm sure this is why he had to name his 501c3, "Veritas."  But there is nearly always some truth in every conspiratorial lie, and therefore I always find some hidden value in them. In the case of these latest undercover videos, the segments were long enough and not prompted by the person taking the video. So although his reasons for exposing them might be unknown (by me, at least), they definitely tell a real part of the story he wants to tell.

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

I saw secret undercover  videos of Antifa on "veritas" channel.  They were practicing to take peoples eyes out and injure them seriously.

I saw this too. The video comes from Oregon.

Oregon, Idaho, Washington state, have already had a lot of trouble with these young white recruits to "Antifa" (which is not at all a homogeneous organization). There have been militias that feed on anti-government conspiracy theories (mixed with plenty of truth) and they end up creating self-fulfilling prophecies about how the government spies on them, infiltrates them, etc.

I think some of the same people who are not ready to join an anti-US militia find it easier to release their anarchist tendencies in group (that meets in a bookshop) that gives them no more than an excuse to bust things up and be violent, using "Antifa" as a kind of "Fight Club."

Washington Post reported (excerpt):

Oregon’s notoriously secretive Rose City Antifa meets regularly “like a business” to train in weapons and tactics, including eye-gouging, as well as how to engage in violence without getting caught, according to a video released Thursday by Project Veritas.

In what may be the first video of Antifa’s inner workings, the hidden-camera footage showed what was described as training sessions — in some cases using PowerPoint — by Rose City Antifa leaders inside a Portland, Oregon, bookshop before a room of apparently young, white recruits.

“Practice things like an eye gouge. It takes very little pressure to injure someone’s eyes,” said a man identified as Nicholas Cifuni in a “recon and tactics” class.

He was also recorded on audio delivering a profanity-laced warning to recruits about being too obvious while engaging in violence lest they draw the attention of police.

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

So are the GB / Writing dept' still playing an old record here ?  

Yes. It's the same old record. What the WT represents here is still a possible interpretation, as I've often said. But it contradicts the most likely interpretation of several other Bible verses, and it uses unlikely definitions and interpretations of the original Greek terms.

You already mentioned one of those potential contradictions, where Jesus couches all these "signs" in language about not being misled because even if you are seeing these things, the end is not yet. Of course, at some point in history, it may not be these particular signs, but there will certainly come a time when people will just simply "become faint out of fear, not know the way out." But we know that this is the time of the actual "end" or "synteleia" (the full [destructive] end of all things together.) But the rest of the chapter in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 17 & 21 let us know that people will still be milling, farming, buying, selling, and getting married right up until this point in time. Therefore it comes as a surprise, as if without warning.

It should be of concern to more Witnesses, I think, that 1914 is sometimes defended as follows: Chronology, archaeology, and history say that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 BCE. But if we count forward 2,520 years from 587 we reach 1934 and we all know that nothing happened in that year. (Furuli uses this argument in his new book.) Therefore we look to 607 as the destruction of Jerusalem. He can do what he wants with shifting the evidence around to support the 607 date. What is of interest is the defense, 'it can't be 1934 because nothing happened then.'

If nothing happened in 1934, then why do we speak of a time starting in 1914 when critical times hard to deal with will go from bad to worse? If it was bad in 1914, then why wasn't it so much worse in 1934? Why has the persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses been reduced to relatively nothing in 2020, if Satan's anger is based on knowing he has a short period of time? Does Satan no longer have a short period of time? If it all had to happen in 1914, then where were the earthquakes? Why are the most notable ones a decade prior to 1914, and decades after?

The reason is actually pretty clear. The Bible predicted that bad things would be happening in places, as always, but it would still be generally during a relatively peaceful time when people would be likely to take notice of peaceful and secure conditions around them. The Bible said that people, just as they were already doing in Peter's day, would be wondering if this promised spectacular judgment visitation (parousia) was really going to come upon them, precisely because conditions would be a lot like before the Flood when people kept living their life normally. That's what would make the parousia come upon them suddenly, like a thief in the night (and spectacularly, like lightning).

It should also be curious why Jesus spent time on the topic of an invisible visitation (parousia). He promised that the parousia would not be invisible. There is always a tendency of people to want to be seen as prophets or having special insight and discernment. So they will be saying that even though Jesus is not visible in front of you, that he actually has returned, but he's over here or over there, or in some hidden room somewhere. This idea is that someone would claim special insight or knowledge about Jesus parousia that you don't yet have. Jesus indicated that this idea of an invisible parousia is nonsense. After saying not to fall for those persons who say he's here or there, but invisible to you, Jesus said that the parousia would be like lightning that flashes from one horizon to the other. Even the very word "parousia" when used in Greek with reference to a visiting ruler, was not just about the "visititation" which would be enough, but also about the visible spectacle and the parade and the entourage and the trumpeted fanfare. No one has this special insight or discernment of the parousia to claim to others, because everyone can see such a great lightning flash at the same time.

So, you asked for my opinion, and that's it. But what I think is "false" information about it is not specifically the GB's opinion. They inherited it from old "Bible Student" tradition just like all JWs inherited it. Most JWs merely wait on the GB before thinking about changing their opinion on things because it makes for peace and order and unity in the congregation. Such doctrines are not the defining characteristic of JWs.

Also, as far as teaching the GB's teaching on this, the primary purpose of the teaching is to create urgency. There is nothing wrong with urgency. The Bible promotes it, too. Jesus may have begun the "Messianic" kingship in 33 CE, and that was in the distant past. 1914 is in the distant past, too. So it's not a disaster in terms of its effect on our lives. The "GB" teaching is that Jesus is invisibly present. This is not a disaster either, for the same reason: Jesus said he would be invisibly present starting in 33 CE. ("Wherever two or three are gathered in Jesus' name. there he would be (invisibly present) in their midst." Also, as soon as Jesus was resurrected he said: "Look I am with you [invisibly present] all the days until the "synteleia" (the full completion/full conclusion) of the system of things."

The basic message is that Jesus has begun his kingship, he is invisibly present, and he will shortly judge the entire world. This is not so far off, except in its chronology. And chronology shouldn't matter.  It did matter for as long as the WT was teaching that someone born before 1914 who was old enough to see the war in 1914 would not die out before the Judgment/end. This created a chronology error, a false teaching. It's been taken care of now that all those people died already.

On 6/12/2020 at 2:33 PM, Space Merchant said:

@JW Insider I think he started one

Yes, especially the one about a CSA case JB knew about, wondering about whether some here thought he should report it. This is why I said "rarely." But I'm  hoping to say no more about JB, CSA, 4J except for what might be relevant to this topic. I shouldn't have made the Beatle's joke at his expense, but 4J was the only one I thought of with a particular connection to the UK.

On 6/11/2020 at 1:52 PM, Space Merchant said:

There are people out there, even in the black community that are referred to as race traitors for not agreeing with BLM, let alone if they speak of statistics involving police killings.

True, and it's a shame how a movement that could have been a simple cry for human for justice, and which had prided itself on an intelligent platform, can be so easily subverted. Not just from the outside, but from irrational people who tend to rise to the top of so many organizations. And even if the non-thinkers don't rise to the top, their voices will surely drown out those who are truly sighing and groaning over this system of things. These types of failures of all governments (to meets the needs of all the people) gives us a renewed impetus to preach our own version of reform. And those sincere among them who join our movement might find some measures of justice already available to them, and at the very least, a true and realistic hope for future justice.

17 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

They seek social justice through distributive social and economical polices, reasons why sometimes people refer to them as Social Justice Warriors (SJWs).

Certain types of governments respond well to this means of creating change and progress. And it really is more difficult for some groups and races to effect needed change in many countries in this world. In some countries, Saudi Arabia, Israel, and many others, real racism is part of their literal constitution; SJWs need not apply. But racism is only a part of the story, smaller than most people think when they see it coalescing around the initials BLM. And those who want to make racism the whole story, are hypocritically using violence to make people see things in their own myopic way.

17 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

MSM is constantly throwing racism into the mix, moreover, the mob mentality has increased

Exactly. And MSM (mainstream media) is a slippery term, too, these days. Many don't see the connection to the other form of MSM: manipulated social media. HBO's Homeland series did a couple of seasons that exposed media manipulation pretty well, I thought. It should also have come as no surprise that when FB/Twitter/etc decide to make a decision about where HK-related news can come from, they can instantly find tens of thousands of "bot" accounts to eliminate.

17 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

People are unaware of China's movements, which is obvious, but best be careful of what the MSM is telling you, this goes for what you see and hear on Social Media, for even on those platforms, people lie and through misconception.

I think this is good advice, too. China and India have several border disputes, and anything that can come across as anti-China, especially in the UK or USA, will quickly make a mountain out of a molehill. Then again, a nuclear power can also make just the opposite happen. (BTW, India claims to own  a big part of Tibet, too.) I think India's new fascist leaning government will likely begin to push these issues in several additional ways. (FWIW, FB just loves Modi.)

9 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

That being said, another fight with the Little Boy and cohorts, the Desmond Crew.

You make a lot of obscure references, and I suppose I do, too. (Otherwise, posts would be even longer.) But I had to look up both of these ideas. It's a shame, even to many LGB persons in the LGBTQ++++++++ communities, that they see themselves as devalued and even debased by such young participants in their "movements." (And diluted by the extra ++++'s as every new letter wants to join the "expression.") It's a different story in their cases, but to many it's also another case of people thinking they are crying out for justice, and then subverted and sabotaged by SJW and other factions of identity politics.

Asking again, later that evening, a little less politely, from Air Force One.

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

Sorry @JW Insider but you brought the subject up.

As I said, I see no problem with you or anyone else (even me!) bringing it up, and I never complained. But the complaint from others was that no matter what the topic, JB would turn it to CSA so often, you came to expect it. If it was a discussion of Trinity, JB would turn it to CSA. If the topic was about 1914, JB would turn it to CSA. etc.

It's as if JB had a goal to bring it up everywhere, but he used the methods of an Internet troll to bring it up in anyone else's topic, but he rarely ever started a topic on CSA his own.

44 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

But it is Butler that adds things out of nowhere to a discussion is it ?

JB never added things exactly out of nowhere. You always knew what was coming. And I never complained about it. But the complaint was that, no matter what the topic, you always found a way to turn it into a CSA topic. Believe me, there were plenty of others doing things like it. Sometimes a topic was very serious and suddenly 4 Dilbert cartoons would run back-to-back-back-to-back.

Most of us appreciate a good diversion now and then, but they shouldn't always divert to the same old topic.

Had a lot of fun listening with YouTube's attempt at automatic voice recognized "Closed Captions." Here's the translation of Glen Campbell's "Gentle on my mind" where he says in the original: "That keeps you in the back roads by the rivers of my memory that keeps you ever [gentle on my mind]."

I also saw lyrics about "when bus who got nuts and buns" and "Apple hazard pay" and all kinds of lyrical distortions.

Of course, they sound very good. I liked "California." Also, it reminded me of my time in Missouri ('65-'76) where some extended families had plenty of "bluegrass" musicians that would get together on weekends and picnics and just start pickin' and grinnin' for hours.

25 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I know the original lyric.

I had no doubt that YOU knew it. But there are some people here from the UK, like @4Jah2me (assuming of course that he is the reincarnation of @John Butler). And, I'm not so sure that they had any groups like the Beatles over in the UK. 😉

On 6/10/2020 at 10:51 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

“Wednesday morning at five o’clock as the day begins.”

For some reason, when I remember this Beatles lyric, I belt out:

"Wednesday morning at 5 PM on a Saturday."

In this case, my version might work even better for Armageddon watchers.

My kids never had quite the familiarity with Beatles lyrics, and never understood why I had a Beatles lyric ready for many situations, like when they bumped into me:

"You're SOMEthing in the way, SO move! You attack me like your OTHer mother. BMMM! Bmmm! bmmmmm."**

**Not an actual Beatles lyric. The original was: "Something in the way she moves, attracts me like no other lover. BMMM! Bmmm! bmmmmm."

It looks like someone (perhaps TTH or admin?) moved some of the comments from the original thread to here, probably because that was a general forum, and this is a JW discussion forum. If that was the reason, I'll move the rest of the JW/religion related comments over to here.

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

Wow, um, no part of the world.

I knew I should try to keep religion completely out of this. But. . .

How did Jesus know that Herod Antipas was a fox? How did Luke know that Felix was probably looking for a bribe from Paul? How do you think that the writers for the Daniel and Revelation books could try to come up with the political entities that seemed to match up to the entities and symbols found in various Bible prophecies. Outside of those flimsy excuses, you might still be right. (That I shouldn't offer my two cents.)

But I did fully expect this comment from you. I wasn't sure who might attack first, though, since there are others besides you who could even be more anxious to pounce. I consider these posts to be much more trivial than a Bible discussion, but I have no problem providing something for others to pounce on, especially if someone's comfort level with other topics might be too strained if they feel it necessary to take them too seriously.

31 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Would it be fair to surmise your post as a “conspiracy theory?”

Wow! I saw a little notification that you had posted, and I came back from breakfast to look for that Washington Post article, and clicked send. I didn't realize that we already dovetailed on 1 John 5:19.

The longer post definitely includes some assumptions, but not intended to be conspiratorial. But the recent shorter post was intended to show a relationship between "conspiracies" and "reality" which will allow persons to easily dismiss the longer post, or look at it to help explain some real and serious phenomena.

I think a lot of people are surprised at the global spread of the protests and rioting. What might be even more surprising is the support by many media outlets, not just of the protests, but also supporting the rioting and destruction. MLK is quoted where he said that 'riots are the language of the oppressed.' (Which cherry-picks the quote out of MLK's context that did NOT support rioting.) It's also odd that all this happens in the midst of Covid19, which has disproportionately killed more African-Americans than police have for the last 100 years. Yet, there is no protest about the languishing response to that particular part of the Covid19 problem.

Another odd thing to notice about BLM is that one of their major contributors is from a CIA-backed organization. For those who might think this is just a conspiracy, the Ford Foundation has already admitted to giving more than $100,000. The CIA.org website reviews a book called "The Cultural Cold War" sometimes critiquing and sometimes accepting the author's claims:

She also does a fine job in recounting the intriguing story of how the CIA worked with existing institutions, such as the Ford Foundation and the Rockefeller Foundation, and established numerous "bogus" foundations to "hide" its funding of the Congress for Cultural Freedom and its other covert activities.  

In truth, the Ford Foundation has a long history with the CIA, especially post-WW2 through today. The New Yorker admits a connection, of sorts:

The Ford Foundation . . . The left thought that it was propping up the status quo, and was probably a front for the C.I.A. to boot (and, in fact, the C.I.A. was using other foundations for covert funding).

Books, websites, (in some cases even those written by persons involved with the Ford Foundation) admit to the intended effect of hiring CIA recruits and supporting CIA projects. Summaries of some of these activities are easily found, and not even denied:

Ford Foundation, a philanthropic facade for the CIA

by Paul Labarique

Between 1947 and 1966 the Ford Foundation played a key role in the network of US interference in Europe through the subvention of magazines, scientific programs and non-communist left-wing organizations. The largest philanthropic organization in the world was in fact providing a respectful facade for CIA financial and contact operations. This role was even more possible by the fact that the same persons designed and directed both organizations.

Also here:

James Petras, retired Bartle Professor (Emeritus) of Sociology at Binghamton University in Binghamton, New York, and adjunct professor at Saint Mary’s University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada, wrote a damning article on September 18, 2002, exposing the Ford Foundation’s sinister choice of beneficiaries of its donations. He accused the CIA of using “philanthropic foundations as the most effective conduit to channel large sums of money to Agency projects without alerting the recipients to their source”.

A quick search on Google shows that even the Washington Post has made the connection as recently as 2018:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act-four/wp/2018/08/22/the-cia-funded-a-culture-war-against-communism-it-should-do-so-again/

The CIA funded a culture war against communism. It should do so again.

Magazines like Der Monat and English-American literary-political journal Encounter were not the only activities supported by nonprofit pass-throughs such as the Farfield Foundation and the Ford Foundation. The CIA-backed Congress for Cultural Freedom brought the Boston Symphony to Europe (at the cost of $166,359.84 . . .

It can be just as hard to guess what the CIA's thinking is about BLM. But, based on past uses and abuses of philanthropic organizations, the surreal response should be looked at with some suspicion.

Oh wait, did I promise I wouldn't say things like:  "but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one"? Or,  "They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and they perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day . . ."

On 6/9/2020 at 6:54 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

He spoke to how in police recruiting today a military background was a large factor—sometimes the only factor—that was taken under consideration for hire.

And it's amazing how much heavy military equipment is being sold even to small towns over the last decade especially. I guess it makes the [recent military] recruits feel more comfortable? I suspect it also puts them in mind of how they needed to respond with heavy lethal force just a few months prior in some cases [in other countries]. Easy to imagine a new interview question when hiring police recruits: Can you fire a tank?

I haven't done a political post in a while, but it is probably a good idea that I try to explain in what ways I agree with Tucker Carlson (whom I usually disagree with to such a point that I never watch more than about once a month). I will try to avoid religion in this post, although it usually creeps in. This is more of an attempt to explain what I think is going on from a completely socio-economico-political perspective.

I think the recent “Black Lives Matter” protests are an outgrowth of a few specific factors. Conceptually, at least, there are the very real issues of police brutality, racist violence, and the “disparities” people of color often face. 

Materially, however, I think that there are 2 main factors driving the protests. One has been been the very recent social isolation and economic pain caused by America’s COVID19 response. This is too obvious. The other is — and has been for about 40 years now — the increasing proletarianization of the Professional/Managerial Middle Class (PMC). This has been particularly acute since the rapid liberalization and financialization of the economy since the 1980s and especially since the Recession/Depression of 2008. 

Members of the PMC are a relatively privileged class, distinct from the already “precarious” working class. Typically they are university-educated (the ~35% of the population with Bachelor’s Degrees or higher) possessing — or having close family that possess — upper-middle or higher incomes. The PMC is engaged in (or has close family engaged in) professional work involving business, management, finance, computers, engineering, law, medicine, media, education, and other technical fields. They make up about 40% of the recently employed labor force, or about 30% of the total population (typically earning the top 30% of incomes). 

While distinct from the ruling capitalist class (the 1% or less that own and control the bulk of capitalism), and also distinct from the vast working masses, the PMC has attributes of both. As they are typically inculcated in elite institutions, they carry the ruling ideologies: liberalism, individualism, self-help, liberal capitalism (“representational” economics), quasi-religious idealism, cosmopolitanism (“diversity and inclusion”), imperialism, and identitarianism (“identity politics”). 

But, in the era of monopoly capitalism, and thereby of stagnation, war, rising prices, and large-scale crisis, they have also had to face some fraction (however small) of the grim reality the proletarian masses face on a daily basis. Low wages and part-time employment, the absence of unions or collective bargaining, concerns about childcare, and unprecedented levels of debt have all become commonplace. 

This has bred an acute sense of insecurity and entitlement for those directly or even indirectly affected. This has bred hopelessness and political polarization. It also breeds a corresponding anarchist ideology tied to its liberal counterpart: the rejection (to varying degrees) of authority, intellectuals, elections, law, leadership, centralism, control, government, and/or “politics” more generally — in favor of decentralization, reaction, emotional catharsis, fetishization of “protest,” and local “communitarianism.” 

Needless to say, these are not the only people showing up to Black Lives Matter (BLM) protests. But neoliberal antiracists and their anarchist counterparts do form the majority or at least a plurality of what might be termed the “movement.” And they certainly drive the gist of its politics, its “strategy” and tactics, and its social media presence. 

I use quotes around a lot of words here — “disparity,” “representation,” “movement,” “strategy”... This is because I believe these to be flawed categories; PMC distortions of reality often serving the neoliberal ruling class (not necessarily consciously).

It is difficult to see the “strategy” that BLM takes as a whole (though there is great potential in some organizations, which typically devolves over time). There is not really a unified or long-term plan outside of performative acts such as “Say Their Names,” the confessionals of white guilt, firing a few police officers, the rioting, and the media spectacle. Even specific, political goals (e.g., “Abolish the Police”) are often short-sighted and lack regard for future strategy or the larger political-economic context. (And there is evidence of overwhelming rejection to the ideas of defunding police departments among African-Americans in general.)

The same problems were present within BLM in 2014-2016. They should have been critiqued for very similar reasons then, too. Unfortunately, it was and is because the ideology motivating a lot of the participation and organizations is empty, anarchist, or at its core the ruling neoliberal ideology. (And these problems are not new: Bayard Rustin made similar critiques of “Black Power” in 1966.)

The typical framing of “disparity” and “representation” by neoliberal antiracists, for example, serves really to privilege essentialist notions of race and gender and sexual orientation, while often raging against the unequal distribution of social “goods and bads” for these idealized groups (or “identities”). 

That framing — plus many other aspects of the “woke” university jargon and neoliberal ideology — serves a double-function. First, it offends and alienates constituencies which might otherwise unite with the causes of ending police violence and more systemic issues like poverty, which are both sources of great consternation for many white working class people. (This is even to an extent true of the #BlackLivesMatter hashtag itself, though, of course, everyone should acknowledge that black people are “over-represented” in killings by about 2.5 times*, and a whole host of other discriminations and problems too.) 

*No time for sources yet, but I'll add a few later.

Secondly, it also normalizes capitalism and the elite’s power to shape the more general context of jobs, real estate, and government, contributing to the very problems BLM purports to want to solve. Neoliberal antiracists tend to dismiss this charge outright, as they claim to “always mention” the problems of “the system!” But simplistic concession is not enough; theoretical and especially pragmatic questions are critically important to real movement-building, as they have been throughout world history.

In any case, for those wishing to make progress within the confines of this system, they would have to look at the greater context in which police violence occurs. There are some states in the US — and strikingly many of them in the Southern “Black Belt,”** where police killings of poor whites are often roughly equal to police killings of black people, even adjusted to their proportions in the society. Nearly all police killings (95%) occur in areas where the per-capita annual income is less than $50,000 (median income less than $25,000). Some of these areas have more crime. 

** Expanded from Adolph Reed's 2017 data by double-checking with other sources.

These facts alone illustrate the problem with using “disparity” as an analytical lens. It also poses a positive practical question: Could this allow for a bridging of the gap between White and Black America on organizational lines? Is there something to be salvaged from the “All Lives Matter” retort so often dismissed as racist? 

Put differently, would more effective movements be built if they were of the sort that organize around broad working-class constituencies and concrete questions? Building consensus as opposed to assuming pre-existing blocs? And can they move beyond “disruption” and gain power and effect change in the way the most influential Civil Rights leaders like MLK and Bayard Rustin envisioned? (It is a little discussed fact that the most pressure against civil rights leaders on a national scale began when MLK and others expanded their outreach to create broader coalitions.)

The gut-level response of the neoliberal antiracists to this question has so often been a resounding “No!” 

In fact, very often, these ideas are dismissed as somehow “implicitly racist” in themselves; very often they are slandered falsely as “class-reductionist.” Very often analogies to movements of the past are shouted down with “We’ve been there done that!” and sometimes even “Nonviolence is not the answer!” Serious concerns about the short-term consequences of rioting or the long-term evolution of anarchistic tendencies, concerns about supposedly “good” policy outcomes or tactics, are dismissed as “lacking empathy” for the causes or for “genocide” or “existential threats!” 

Not only is none of this the case, I would argue, but these “counterarguments” and insistence on hyperbolic rhetoric are little more than masks for a race-essentialist, identitarian, neoliberal class politics. They are a “class reductionism” of their own! They constitute a politics whose practical consequence is the division and further subdivision of the working masses and the (smaller) middle class. And this politics is neatly aligned with a large section of the ruling class’s agenda and the agenda of their capitalist/imperialist lackeys in the Democratic Party. 

So co-opting (by Democrats, so-called “anti-Trump” politicians, Hong Kong separatists, cops, the rich, etc.) is not only a “risk” movements of this kind face; it is a direct result of the kind of decentralization and class politics it espouses and represents. This is just an inevitable invitation to co-optation! 

It is therefore predictable that almost the entirety of the media apparatus (both corporate news media and manipulated social media), including much of the elites that own and operate them, all show sympathy for or outright endorse these protests. Should this not be looked at with suspicion? 

A significant section of the ruling class elite has for decades wished for diminishing the role of the State in education, services, and policing — precisely in favor of privatization and profit. The ruling class near-unanimously supports both the corruption and the dismantling of labor unions generally, a key factor in the disenfranchisement of people of color and the sharpening of inequality! Like it or not, the AFL-CIO (which has been attacked both rhetorically and now evidently a targeted burning of an AFL-CIO building during riots last week) and police unions (many of whom are people of color) are part of that picture too, issues of entrenchment and racism aside.  

So initial solutions that might be effective would have to see any tactics and organizing within this broader context and have a strategically calculated, long-term vision. Anarchism (in the general sense I defined above) must be rooted out, as it is a pitfall of real organization. Dismantling a specific system like police militarization or mass incarceration is alright so long as there is unity on how to do it, what to replace it with, how to maintain that new order, and how to maintain momentum and accountability to the working class majority.

Unfortunately, I do not yet see these features. Some good may yet come out of it, such as the punishment of officers involved in needless brutality and killing, many reforms at the state or municipal level, and a profound change in the bravery and political consciousness of our nation’s people. (Good only when limitations are understood and change can be effected without violence/suffering for others.) The same was said of the rise of BLM in 2014-2016. But the fear is that this will not result in any drastic change to the status quo nor will it build any strategic momentum. Indeed, many of the BLM leaders from 2014-2016 appear themselves to have been assassinated! I haven't looked far enough into this, but even "reputable" (traditional) national news sources have made this claim about Ferguson, Missouri BLM organizers.

I believe the alternative implied by this critique is somewhat obvious, at least in broad outline. Attempts to effectively solve the most issues would need to start with wide, broader-spectrum, and centralized membership organizations accountable to the working class. They would need to start with a clear set of strategic, attainable policy goals with a vision toward building momentum. Unfortunately, there are deep-rooted oppositional forces and predictable reactions from the ruling class to be watched for, and defended against. So there should never be violence of course, although this is typical of ruling class reactions when cornered. But infiltration and sabotage and false flags are even trickier to watch for. They would need to bridge as many gaps as possible, rejecting essentialisms, rejecting the quasi-religious narratives of “Original Sin,” (not in a religious sense, but the idea of unrequited guilt over slavery, lynchings, civil rights abuses, etc.) rejecting hyperbolic or exclusionary rhetoric, and rejecting the politics of the PMC and the ruling class.

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

I had posted a list before of existing and extinct groups that held that view. Everyone knew about what was studied regarding Giza

I don't think I saw that. But I would expect that Russellites of many stripes would carry his beliefs with them mostly unchallenged. Can you point me to that list?

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

so the staggered approach is not as luny as you pretend it to be with sarcasm.

That's not at all true. I have defended the staggered approach for years, even while JTR for example was saying that there was only one definition of a generation: something like an average lifespan of people who heard Jesus in 33 CE. There is no sarcasm at all in my acceptance of the staggered generation approach. I repeated my agreement with it, not out of sarcasm, but because you gave the impression that I hadn't thought about it.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

You do not believe in any of the signs and the generation -  be honest...... so why would you think further?

In truth, I believe that all of these signs that started when Jesus was enthroned as King of Kings, and when he was given all authority in heaven and on earth, when he was given a title above all kings and princes and authorities in heaven and on earth, and when he sat at God's right hand, the right hand of the throne of Majesty. I believe that Paul would not have stated that "sitting at God's right hand was the same as "ruling as king" unless it was really true.

• (1 Corinthians 15:25) . . .For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet.
• (Psalm 110:1) . . .Jehovah declared to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”
• (1 Timothy 6:15) . . .He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords,
• (Revelation 1:5) . . .and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead,” and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth.”. . .

So, of course the scriptures simply do not allow me to believe that Jesus became King only in 1914. For me, that would be dishonest. Yet, I ALSO believe that these signs of wars and earthquakes and pestilence and famine are actually signs that Jesus has actually been ruling in the midst of his enemies, and that those enemies include Death, which has not yet been fully put under his feet. Therefore he is still sitting at God's right hand, ruling as king, conquering in the midst of his enemies, right up until the last enemy Death is also conquered and thrown into the lake of fire, destroyed forever.

• (1 Corinthians 15:26) 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.
• (Revelation 20:14) . . .And death and the Grave were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.

As Jesus rides throughout all of Christian history, he has been riding alongside the other horses representing Death from wars, famine, pestilence, etc. But Christians continue to find strength in his conquering ride through all of history, even though he has been ruling, riding and conquering in the midst of his enemies. We know that it means that we too can become conquerors.

• (1 John 5:4, 5) . . .everyone who has been born from God conquers the world. And this is the conquest that has conquered the world, our faith. 5 Who can conquer the world? Is it not the one who has faith that Jesus is the Son of God?

Now that these "signs" are getting even worse, we can know that our deliverance is much closer than when we first became believers. This is true whether we live to see the Judgment or if we die before that time. I think that as things get worse, historically, we can be sure that Jehovah will step in before it is too late:

• (Matthew 24:22) . . .In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.
• (Luke 18:8) . . .Nevertheless, when the Son of man arrives, will he really find this faith on the earth?”
• (Luke 21:25, 26) . . .and on the earth anguish of nations not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and its agitation. 26 People will become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

We are already at a time when there are more persons living in fearful expectation of what might be coming upon the earth. This doesn't mean to me that these are definite signs that can put a range of dates on our generation, but it highlights the importance of putting faith in God's government.

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

If I were anointed while brothers were still alive which saw WW1 then I am still part of that generation

My older brother and I visited a house in service (in Missouri) in 1964 where a 104 year old man remembered the civil war and told us about how his relatives died, how two of their three slaves ran away, and how he remembers his father coming home from the fighting when he was about 5. We returned several times to offer him the magazines nearly up until the time he died in about 1966. 

I am so glad that I can say I am part of the U.S. Civil War generation.

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

. . .because you are stuck on a date and not the generation.....the SIGNS that Jesus gave to this generation....

But I understand your thinking because you do not believe in the SIGNS and assume we will not be able to discern the time (not the day but the times we are living in) and neither do you accept 1914.

You say I am stuck on the date 1914, when I should be stuck on the generation of 1914. But you also say that you understand my thinking because "neither do I accept 1914."

That inherent contradiction of yours says a lot to me. It says that the reason I don't accept that this generation is in large part because I don't accept 1914. The corollary, of course, is that the reason people accept the stretching of the generation to as much as 180 years, is because they accept 1914. In other words, this stretching of the definition is only true for people who accept 1914. If I accepted it, then whatever people say in support of it will always be true, even if it would otherwise be false. 😊

On 6/7/2020 at 12:36 AM, Arauna said:

And a staggered generation  can - as illustrated - be many more years..... even up to 180..... if one looks at the reality on the ground.

As you showed, the staggered generation is from some starting point and can go 90 years back and 90 years forward, for example, for a total of 180 years. Therefore those who discerned the sign in 1914 could have been born up to 90 years before, and lived to up to 90 years after. I have no problem with the 180 years of a staggered generation. The generation that discerned a sign in 1914 could run out as late as 2004 (or 1994 if they had to be at least 10 in 1914 to "discern," or 1989 if they had to be at least 15 in 1914 to be "anointed").

Also, tt was not me who said that the generation was about anointed persons who could discern the sign in 1914. Brother Splane was the one stuck on that 1914 date. By the way, I think it's revealing that Brother Splane didn't consider this new "generation" theory very seriously before presenting it. Otherwise he would not have used a scripture in Exodus that doesn't support his view, and he also would likely have noticed that his chart has a glaring error on it. It shows that "this generation" is passing away well before the great tribulation starts, when the entire point is that the great tribulation can't happen before this generation passes away. It depicts only anointed who are not part of group one or group two living at the time the great tribulation begins. To me, it's just a mistake, but it shows that he took his focus off the scripture that shows the exact opposite of what his chart depicts.

I believe 100 percent in the generation of 1914, and that it could represent as much as 180 years worth of a staggered generation. There were grandparents and great grandparents who could perceive the signs of war and pestilence during that WW1 period. Their children and grandchildren and great grandchildren who were also alive and growing up in 1914 could go on living for another 90 years or so, too. They can all legitimately be called a part of that generation, even though it's already a stretch to say that  "the generation" is still alive when 95 percent of it had already died before 1990.

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

 I am of the post WW2 generation....... my generation was effected by the WW2. If I were anointed while brothers were still alive which saw WW1 then I am still part of that generation

This is why I mentioned the civil war generation above. You are part of the post WW2 generation, and you were also alive when persons saw the Civil War. Therefore if there were anointed brothers alive during the civil war, you are part of the Civil War generation too. You will probably claim that I am being ridiculous, but it is to help us think whether there is any point at which we would have balked at this explanation. If, by special mightiness, you are still alive in 2042 and the end has not come by then, does the existence of the FDS and the preaching work mean that you are still in the 1914 generation no matter what?

At what point in the future, if any, would the definition no longer be valid? 2033, 2042, 2050?