JW Insider

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Do someone a favor on eBay. (not me)—buy the book Preachers Present Arms:

I'm doing that right now. I've always meant to, but hoped the previews would be enough to get a full sense of the author's purposes and possibly any biases. (The 2009 version has quite a bit of preview available on Google Books.)

I believe the case in Canada against the Bible Students and "The Finished Mystery" started out as religious backlash against Rutherford's vilification of the churches, especially the "attacks" on Roman Catholicism. And some of the quotes that tie religion to the case against Rutherford actually appear to be about the situation in Canada, not the United States.

I notice quite a bit of exaggeration in the claim that "everyone rejoiced" when they were locked up (and that there was silence when they were released). I'm told that one of the ways in which the couple thousand Bible Students obtained those 700,000 signatures in 1918 to allow bail when on appeal, was due to Catholic organizations that sided with the Watchtower. This was only a months after the imprisonment. I don't think you will see any information about that reported in our publications, nor in Preachers Present Arms, but I'll look for it.

10 hours ago, Anna said:

But I can't seem to find anything about who was behind the arrest and conviction of Rutherford and the others...

It was always blamed mostly on the Catholics, but mostly through innuendo. Judge Howe, the primary judge, would not give them bail in 1918. But a Judge Mantey made a bigger deal out of it. If they had gotten bail, they may have been able to stay out of jail until the appeals process was finished, which could easily have lasted the number of months they were in prison. In other words, there probably would never have been any prison, if they got bail. And when the case went to appeal Judge Mantey still dissented on the bail issue, even after a year, but it didn't override the other two judges (including Howe) who allowed the appeal on $10,000 bail apiece. Judge Mantey was a Catholic, with high respect by the church, and even had an unrelated commendation from the Vatican. And he also got in legal trouble for taking bribes later in his career.

Also, the book "Finished Mystery" was first banned in Canada before the USA followed suit. In Canada, where many Catholics live, preachers had spoken out against the book on religious grounds, too, not just political grounds.

But during these times, several anti-war preachers and religious leaders and political activists went to prison under exactly the same charges. Some of these others spent much longer in jail than the brothers in the Society.

10 hours ago, Anna said:

Are there any recorded quotes made by such opponents? I am not doubting that there is, I was just wondering if you had any.

Nothing specific. The Brooklyn Eagle never liked the Bible Students and often exposed legal issues that Russell had gone through. It's hard to read some of their reporting of the trial without detecting just a bit of "gloating."

Adding: I read about 1,000 pages of FBI files from the time they were still putting together the evidence for a case. This was mostly starting around late-February 1918, and I see nothing even in the earliest correspondence that was religious in nature. It was very political in nature. The FBI (and Justice Dept lawyers) and War Department were writing back and forth in some of the earliest correspondence, and they obviously didn't like anyone who might discourage the draft or who might promote ideas for how to avoid the draft.

You can't see the exact dates from either of the two charts, but if you can read a timeline closely, you can see that the intent is to show a date from what looks like about December 1, 1914, up until a date that's about 45 percent into 1918. That would map to around mid-June 1918.

These positions in the chart are on purpose. The intended dates start in December 1914 and end in June 1918. To keep it simple, 1918 is never shown in the chart, nor in the text of the explanation in the 2014 Watchtower. This is because the previous year, 2013, the Watchtower dropped the second of two major prophetic fulfillments that were supposed to have happened in 1918, and so 1918 has barely been mentioned since 2013.

But the 1988 Revelation book gave the intended dates:

*** re chap. 25 p. 164 par. 12 Reviving the Two Witnesses ***
Additionally, at the beginning of the Lord’s day, there was a marked period of three and a half years when the hard experiences of God’s people matched the events prophesied here—starting in December 1914 and continuing to June 1918. (Revelation 1:10)

Most of us surely know what happened in June 1918. But since we are supposedly counting out a LITERAL 1260 days, we might wish to see if we can get this a little closer. So here are the 1918 dates as reported in the 1975 Yearbook (among other places):

*** yb75 p. 105 Part 1—United States of America ***
They were released on bail and appeared in court on May 15, 1918. The trial was set for June 3, 1918 . . . Finally, after the lengthy trial [15 days], the awaited day of decision arrived. June 20, 1918, at about 5:00 p.m., the case went to the jury. . . .Sentencing took place on June 21. The courtroom was full. . . .The trial had lasted for fifteen days. . . . While their case was on appeal,. . . they first were held in Brooklyn’s Raymond Street jail . . . .  That unpleasant week-long stay was followed by another week spent in the Long Island City prison. Finally, on the fourth of July, United States Independence Day, the unjustly condemned men were sent on their way by train to the Atlanta, Georgia, penitentiary. . .  

*** yb75 p. 117 Part 2—United States of America ***
On March 21, 1919, United States Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis ordered bail for the eight imprisoned brothers and directed that they should be given the right to an appeal on April 14 of that year. They were released promptly and on Tuesday, March 25, they left Atlanta penitentiary by train. Back in Brooklyn on March 26, 1919, federal authorities released the brothers on bail of $10,000 each, pending further trial. . . On the evening of April 1, 1919, another banquet was held for the released brothers by the Watch Tower office force at Hotel Chatham in Pittsburgh. . . . The case of the eight Bible Students was due to be heard on appeal on April 14, 1919. They then had a hearing before the Federal Second Circuit Court of Appeals at New York city. On May 14, 1919, their erroneous convictions were reversed.

Evidently the June 1918 date refers to the trial that took up most of that month up until June 20/21, or perhaps the entire month since they remained in jail without bail and therefore in custody of prison guards from July 4, 1918 through March 26, 1919.

*** dp chap. 9 p. 143 par. 31 Who Will Rule the World? ***
Harassment of God’s anointed ones climaxed on June 21, 1918, when the president, J. F. Rutherford, and prominent members of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society were sentenced on false charges to long prison terms. Intending “to change times and law,” the “small” horn had effectively killed the organized preaching work. (Revelation 11:7) So the foretold period of “a time, and times and half a time” ended in June 1918.

So what's the problem?

• Going back 1260 days from June 21, 1918 brings you to January 8, 1915.
• So you can't reach from June 21, 1918 back to 1914 with just 1,260 days.

Try Excel functions or even online date calculators like this https://planetcalc.com/274/

You can't even get even one day of 1914 into the prophecy if you start at the climax of the trial.

• December 31, 1914 to June 21, 1918 is 1268 days.

But it is clearly very important to start this prophecy in 1914 into this prophecy. And by showing a date of about December 1, 1914 on each of the charts to bury the beginning of the days even a little deeper into 1914 it implies an end date of about May 15, 1918 to be an actual literal 1,260 days. (Which happens to land on the day they were first released on bail and went to court but free until the trial that lasted from June 3 to June 21, 1918)

It's true that from somewhere near the very end of December 1914, to somewhere near the early part of June 1918 is a literal 1,260 days. No specific event is given for December 1914. December just happens to be how far back the dates allow you to land if don't go past the middle of June 1918, somewhere in the middle of the trial.

So why not go from the trial or the even the July 4, 1918 date when they were off to Federal Prison as the end date, and then be forced to start the period in early 1915? Why is it so important to at last catch the tail end of 1914 into this prophecy, when no specific event or turning point happened in December 1914? In fact the only turning point ever given so far regarding December is that this is when the new year text motto was announced!

It's pretty easy to spot when the change to this period began. For years the time was started on October 4/5, 1914 for obvious reasons, and it therefore had to end on between March 17 and March 26, 1918. That's how it appeared in 1975:

*** yb75 pp. 103-104 Part 1—United States of America ***
After early October 1914, Christ’s anointed followers proclaimed that the Gentile Times had ended and that the nations were approaching their destruction at Armageddon. (Luke 21:24; Rev. 16:14-16) These figurative “two witnesses” declared this mournful message for the nations for 1,260 days, or three and a half years (October 4/5, 1914, to March 26/27, 1918). Then the Devil’s beastly political system warred against God’s “two witnesses,” eventually ‘killing’ them as far as their tormenting work of prophesying “in sackcloth” was concerned, to the great relief of their religious, political, military and judicial foes. (Rev. 11:3-7; 13:1) That was the prophecy, and it was fulfilled. But how?

This period from October 4/5, 1914 to March 26/27, 1918 is also not 1260, but it's 1,269 days, only 9 days off, and with a fairly acceptable reason for making it 9 days off with some adjustments based on the Jewish lunar calendar. Yet, even very minor adjustments have been treated very differently when discussing the 2,520 days of Daniel 4.

The change happened in 1977 with a book written by F W Franz, One World Government (the "go" book). This book focused on the time period from Daniel which has almost always been linked to the same events. 

*** go chap. 8 p. 131 par. 23 Marked Days During the “Time of the End” ***
This they accomplished by the end of the foretold three and a half years on June 21, 1918. Thus this period began on December 28, 1914,

That's 1,271 days! Franz realized that this was an extremely late date in 1914, so he was the one who also spoke of the announcement of the new year text as somehow significant.  It was "Are ye able to drink of my cup?" --Mt 20:22. He had tied it to the pressure the Bible Students would be under in European countries to compromise and go to war in 1915.

That original time period seemed OK, so why was it so important to adjust it forward by about 2 to 3 months?

Caution: my own commentary will likely seem critical of the interpretation given by the Watchtower publications, for reasons that I will try to make clear. Not because the WT interpretations are necessarily wrong, but because they are so often presented as fact in so many publications, when overall, it is just an interpretation. The following was said in the "Revelation - Grand Climax" book, which explains why no interpretation, except that given in the Bible itself, should be treated as a fact.

*** re chap. 2 p. 9 The Grand Theme of the Bible ***
Interpreting the Scriptures The mysteries locked up in the book of Revelation have for long baffled sincere students of the Bible. In God’s due time, those secrets had to be unlocked, but how, when, and to whom? Only God’s spirit could make known the meaning as the appointed time drew near. (Revelation 1:3) Those sacred secrets would be revealed to God’s zealous slaves on earth so that they would be strengthened to make known his judgments. (Matthew 13:10, 11) It is not claimed that the explanations in this publication are infallible. Like Joseph of old, we say: “Do not interpretations belong to God?” (Genesis 40:8) At the same time, however, we firmly believe that the explanations set forth herein harmonize with the Bible in its entirety, showing how remarkably divine prophecy has been fulfilled in the world events of our catastrophic times.

A couple of the ideas found in this same book have already undergone some changes. TTH commented on the underlined part of the above quotation saying:

9 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Since the writers plainly state up front that they could be wrong, I take everything in that spirit. I strive to get my head around whatever they are saying & and discern how they came to think as they do because I do not want to be like Diotrophes, who “receives nothing from us with respect.” But it is all tentative—it represents to me the best thinking out there. It doesn’t mean that nobody else can think.

That's the spirit in which I would like to share a possibly "simpler" reading of this portion of Revelation. Some might not think the current explanation is complex, but I think when we look into it carefully, we can see that our current explanation produces some complexities that aren't seen until we reflect and meditate on the scriptures involved. And, of course, some might think that a supposedly "simpler" reading is wrong. That's quite alright, because I'm not 100 percent happy with it either.

So here's hoping that others can defend what's right with the current definition, and what's wrong with the alternatives, or vice versa.

A previous similar topic ran on for too many pages without getting back to the original point. But several points were brought up there for further consideration. Perhaps we can pick up some of them here, too.

The original point was supposed to be about a certain interpretation of Revelation 11 from some comments about the Bible reading last week. Caution: my own commentary will likely seem critical of the interpretation given by the Watchtower publications, for reasons that I will try to make clear.

So here's the basic topic this time, based on the Revelation 10-12 and the Midweek meeting material:

*** Text for Tuesday, December 10, 2019 ***
December 9-15
REVELATION 10-12
• Song 26 and Prayer
• Opening Comments (3 min. or less)
TREASURES FROM GOD’S WORD
• “‘Two Witnesses’ Are Killed and Brought Back to Life”: (10 min.)
Re 11:3—“Two witnesses” prophesy for 1,260 days (w14 11/15 30)
Re 11:7—They are killed by “the wild beast”
Re 11:11—The “two witnesses” are brought back to life after “the three and a half days”

Song 26 was chosen, a song with the following theme: all things that the "other sheep" do for the "comfort and aid" of the anointed are what Christ accepts as being done directly for himself. The song then includes all comfort, aid, labor, and loyalty shown by the other sheep to the anointed. And then it mentions that the fine works shown to the anointed is actually the preaching work which is done alongside Christ's brothers, the anointed.

I think we'll end up coming back to that song, but for now we'll start with the linked commentary by clicking the links in the Watchtower Library. (from the mwb and the information that was linked to the 2014 Watchtower):

*** mwb19 December p. 3 “Two Witnesses” Are Killed and Brought Back to Life ***
• “Two witnesses”: The small group of anointed brothers who were taking the lead when God’s Kingdom was established in 1914
• Killed: After preaching for three and a half years “in sackcloth,” they were “killed” when they were imprisoned and forced into inactivity
• Returned to life: At the end of the symbolic three and a half days, they returned to life when they were released from prison and resumed taking the lead in the preaching work
[Timeline on page 3]

*** w14 11/15 p. 30 Questions From Readers ***
Who are the two witnesses mentioned in Revelation chapter 11?
▪ Revelation 11:3 speaks of two witnesses who would prophesy for 1,260 days. The account then says that the wild beast would “conquer them and kill them.” But after “three and a half days,” these two witnesses would be brought back to life, much to the amazement of all onlookers.—Rev. 11:7, 11.
Who are these two witnesses? The details of the account help us to identify them. First, we are told that they “are symbolized by the two olive trees and the two lampstands.” (Rev. 11:4) This reminds us of the lampstand and two olive trees described in the prophecy of Zechariah. Those olive trees were said to picture “the two anointed ones,” that is, Governor Zerubbabel and High Priest Joshua, “standing alongside the Lord of the whole earth.” (Zech. 4:1-3, 14) Second, the two witnesses are described as performing signs similar to those performed by Moses and Elijah.—Compare Revelation 11:5, 6 with Numbers 16:1-7, 28-35 and 1 Kings 17:1; 18:41-45.
What is the common denominator that links these references? In each case, the account refers to God’s anointed ones who took the lead during a difficult time of testing. So in the fulfillment of Revelation chapter 11, the anointed brothers who took the lead at the time of the establishment of God’s Kingdom in heaven in 1914 preached “in sackcloth” for three and a half years.
At the end of their preaching in sackcloth, these anointed ones were symbolically killed when they were thrown into prison for a comparatively shorter period of time, a symbolic three and a half days. In the eyes of the enemies of God’s people, their work had been killed, causing those opponents much joy.—Rev. 11:8-10.
However, true to the words of the prophecy, at the end of the three and a half days, the two witnesses were brought back to life. Not only were these anointed ones released from prison but those who remained faithful received a special appointment from God through their Lord, Jesus Christ. In 1919 they were among those who were appointed to serve as a “faithful and discreet slave” to care for the spiritual needs of God’s people during the last days.—Matt. 24:45-47; Rev. 11:11, 12.
Interestingly, Revelation 11:1, 2 links these events to a time when the spiritual temple would be measured, or evaluated. Malachi chapter 3 mentions a similar inspection of the spiritual temple, followed by a time of cleansing. (Mal. 3:1-4) How long did this inspection and cleansing work take? It extended from 1914 to the early part of 1919. This period of time includes both the 1,260 days (42 months) and the symbolic three and a half days referred to in Revelation chapter 11.
How happy we are that Jehovah arranged for this spiritual refining work to cleanse a special people for fine works! (Titus 2:14) Additionally, we appreciate the example set by the faithful anointed ones who took the lead during that time of testing and thereby served as the symbolic two witnesses.

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I have been thinking about writing a novel about a Jehovah's Witness that goes back in time, and successfully assassinates Adolf Hitler

Might make for interesting reading. I read through 11/22/63 by SK. The book is well-written but I don't like the typical genre at all because the supernatural parts are always so contrived and it's hard to suspend disbelief. In this case, for example, history can be changed by a time traveler but history doesn't WANT to be changed, and therefore the history itself conspires against the protagonist as his nemesis. A historical novel with a lot of imagination given to "POV" characters is much easier for me to accept, or even or a sci-fi novel when the future can contain new versions of "history" that repeat the old themes. I just have a lot of trouble with "time travel," I guess. It's so rarely done in a very convincing manner.

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

and that was as i can recall my last visit before they closed Austria branch

When I traveled in Europe for a string of International Conventions with a member of the GB, I stayed in the branches in France, Spain, Italy, Greece, Switzerland, Austria, and Germany. It was not something these branches normally did for a low-level traveling Bethelite like me, because they did not all keep extra housing for such purposes, but had to reuse rooms of brothers who were either on vacation themselves, or who had been placed for a few days to stay with local brothers.

The only reason it was done was because of who I was traveling with. But our itineraries got out of sync when I had to stay nearly an extra week in Greece for a project. This meant that I was in Austria and Switzerland taking up a room without a good reason, and I was looked at suspiciously and felt very unwelcome. They especially frowned on my interest in looking at their old Bibles that had been donated to the Swiss branch and watched me in their Bethel library. There was so much natural beauty all around, but these were two branches in which I felt almost nothing but coldness, as if I were an unwanted intruder. When I met up with the GB member again, everything was loving and back to normal.

(I think Switzerland had to give up their old Bibles and a page of their Gutenberg Bible over to Warwick by now. I don't recall if Austria had anything as valuable.)

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

No, you can. At least you could when I drove many years ago and I cannot imagine it being more lax today. On each run, we installed a round paper “wheel” in a recording device connected to the odometer and it would produce a record

I don't think it's any more lax now. School districts can and still do require some bus companies they contract with to use driving monitors, and can even require breathalyzers. I heard about one type of ignition monitor, mostly for hazardous materials transport, that actually doesn't use your breath, but just a touch to the skin to measure the existence of alcohol. But this can't tell the amount, only the recent existence of some amount of alcohol in the system.

The interpretation of the dream O, J.T.R. Junior, is this:

The third bus is YOU!

(Hope that helped!)

20 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

"You know, when we get back, they are going to check the mileage, and they will know we have been racing ...."

I was thinking that this was part of the normal run of the buses, and knowing you can't tell if a bus was speeding by checking the mileage.

So it reminded me of the joke about the two fishermen, who normally had bad luck, but rented a boat so that they finally found a place way out on the water where the fish were biting exceptionally well. When fishing was done for the day, the first fisherman says to the second, 'Make sure you keep track of where this place is so we can get here again tomorrow.' The second fisherman say, 'I already did. I put a big X on the side of the boat right here.' The first fisherman says: 'But how do you know we'll get the same boat tomorrow?'

Does anyone remember about 4 years ago when someone came on this forum (jw-archive.org at the time) and said they had just been through real estate training for the Society, because the Society, they said, was going to be one of the biggest buyers and sellers of real estate? I got the impression that this person was already preparing for their specific assignment with an assigned partner to scout out better places purchase KH properties somewhere in the U.S. That person gave the impression that this was about to kick off all around the United States, perhaps even further abroad.

That was many months before the Society announced their cash flow problems, and long before we started hearing about the sales of so many KHs and even a couple of AHs. 

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

If they needed a space for someone or a worker, or even for guests or whatever, they would have bought it because it was needed at the time and is now no longer needed.

This is no doubt correct. The Society did the same thing in the Brooklyn area, as sometimes they would need to bring in a brother who had his family with him. There was also a need to house certain elderly brothers and sisters in a place where they could get physical therapy, nursing visits, palliative care, etc., with some privacy and out of the way of the hustle and bustle of Bethel life.

15 hours ago, Anna said:

For example what are these numbers about?: Daniel 12:11  “And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place, there will be 1,290 days. 12  “Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days!" (It's ok, no need to answer, I can look it up myself).

This has been discussed a few times before on this forum.

I typically just rewrite new comments every time a subject comes up, but this time I'll be anti-typical and just re-quote myself from one of those earlier posts. Comments went on for 9 pages on that topic, too.

For context, Israeli Bar Avaddhon wanted to make another modern day application of these periods and said:

The rest of this post is a copy of my brief response to that:

I think you are right that the basic idea here is more likely a set of time periods from the same starting point. If I were to tell someone that they are going to have to wait 1260 days for something, but that they might really have to get to 1290 before seeing it, and that they will be truly happy if they wait for 1,335 days, then I don't think it's likely that anyone would guess that I meant 3,885 days in total. And yet this is something like the Watchtower's view. I also think that if such a specific number of days were intended for us today that they would match to a specific number of days in a calendar. I agree, too, that the 1,260 of Revelation 11 & 12 is key. (And of Daniel 7:25; 12:7) The Watchtower also generally agrees on this point, even though they move the 1,290 as a completely new time period away from the 1,260.

The explanation given in the Watch Tower publications, as you say, are "greatly rounded." None of them can even reach back as far as October 1914, the most important date/event in modern history according to the new "God's Kingdom Rules" book. The best they can do is start it near the end of December 1914, just a few days from January 1915. In fact, since they end it around June 21, 1918 it must start around December 21, 1914. To even catch this little piece of the tail-end of the all-important year 1914, they must end this period with the sentencing, rather than the actual imprisonment. In the scheme of things, the sentencing was just another part of a process that had begun in the "scheming" that began back in March 1918 when the FBI was building a case based on the Finished Mystery book.

*** dp chap. 9 p. 142 par. 28 Who Will Rule the World? ***

• God’s witnesses would preach dressed in sackcloth for 42 months, or 1,260 days, and then be killed. When did this time period begin and end? . . . Hence, beginning in December 1914, that small band of witnesses preached “in sackcloth.” . . . Harassment of God’s anointed ones climaxed on June 21, 1918, when the president, J. F. Rutherford, and prominent members of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society were sentenced on false charges to long prison terms. Intending “to change times and law,” the “small” horn had effectively killed the organized preaching work. (Revelation 11:7) So the foretold period of “a time, and times and half a time” ended in June 1918.

The start of the next period 1,290 days does not even attach to the first period without a several month gap. And again, even to get it as close as possible they used the "proposal" of the League of Nations rather than the actual start of the League of the Nations:

*** dp chap. 17 p. 300 pars. 22-23 Identifying True Worshipers in the Time of the End ***

• The League was officially proposed in January 1919. At that time, then, both conditions of Daniel 12:11 were met. So the 1,290 days began in early 1919 and ran until the autumn (Northern Hemisphere) of 1922. During that time, did the holy ones make progress toward becoming whitened and cleansed in God’s eyes? They certainly did! In March 1919 the president of the Watch Tower Society and his close associates were released from prison. They were later exonerated of the false charges against them. Aware that their work was far from over, they got busy immediately, organizing a convention for September 1919. In the same year, a companion magazine to The Watch Tower was first published. Originally called The Golden Age (now Awake!), it has always supported The Watchtower in fearlessly exposing the corruption of this world and in helping God’s people to remain clean. By the end of the foretold 1,290 days, the holy ones were well on the way to a cleansed and restored standing. In September 1922, right about the time when this period ended, they held a landmark convention at Cedar Point, Ohio, U.S.A.

Notice again that the periods do not work out. 1290 days is about 17 months, so that a starting date in January would have to end in August, and the convention wasn't until September 1919, which is why it ends at a time when they were only "preparing" for this assembly.

And the next period of 1,335 days is even looser in terms of anchoring to any specific occasions. Note:

*** dp chap. 17 pp. 303-304 pars. 24-26 Identifying True Worshipers in the Time of the End ***

• “Happy is the one who is keeping in expectation and who arrives at the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days!” (Daniel 12:12) The angel gives no clues as to when this period begins or ends. History suggests that it simply follows on the heels of the preceding period. In that case it would run from the autumn of 1922 to the late spring of 1926 (Northern Hemisphere). Did the holy ones come to a state of happiness by the end of that period? Yes, in important spiritual ways. 25 Even after the convention in 1922 (shown on page 302), some of God’s holy ones were still looking longingly to the past. The basic study material for their meetings was still the Bible and the volumes of Studies in the Scriptures, by C. T. Russell. At that time, there was a widely held view that pointed to 1925 as the year for the resurrection to begin and for Paradise to be restored to the earth. Thus, many were serving with a fixed date in mind. Some proudly refused to share in the work of preaching to the public. This was not a happy state of affairs. . . . The issue of March 1, 1925, carried the historic article “Birth of the Nation,” giving God’s people a full understanding of what had happened in the 1914-19 period. After 1925 passed, the holy ones no longer served God with an immediate, explicit deadline in view. . . .  At the convention in May 1926, the book Deliverance was released. (See page 302.) This was one of a series of new books designed to replace Studies in the Scriptures. No longer were the holy ones looking to the past. They were looking confidently to the future and the work ahead. As prophesied, the 1,335 days therefore ended with the holy ones in a happy state.

If Daniel had spoken of the 1,335 days as culimating in the most unhappy time period ever for God's people, then this could have made more sense. It would have been very easy to show why this was the most UNHAPPY time period in our organization's history. 1925 had been hyped since 1918 as one of the most important prophecies that the "prophet" -- the Watchtower -- had ever proclaimed, and it turned out to be a miserable failure: a false prophecy. People were now leaving in larger numbers, even those who had hung on past the 1917 organizational debacle. In 1926 Rutherford began to systematically throw away all the old foundations for the time prophecies of Russell. More people were upset. Although Rutherford claims that he had been fighting against Russellite creature worship all along, this was actually the time when Rutherford himself stopped making great claims for Russell and began pushing against Russell's teachings almost "en masse."   Rutherford was beginning to fight with colporteurs and pioneers because they no longer wanted to sell Russell's books if they were pushing doctrines that were now considered "from Satan" (pyramids, etc). But Rutherford still had large stockpiles of these books and insisted that the Lord wanted them sold to the public. The "Bulletin" (Later Informant, later Our Kingdom Ministry) claimed that anyone who balked at this particular edict by Rutherford was going against the Lord himself. More people left the organization over this, and from 1926 to 1932 the campaigns to sell Russell's books continued.

We could go on and on comparing this particular period of sadness and gloom with the periods before and since, but there is definitely enough to make us wonder why these particular time periods were chosen for the 1260, 1290, and 1,335 days. I think there are enough weaknesses in it, that the Society will revisit it -- especially if they realize that more and more Witnesses are looking at the prophecy more closely.

If I get a chance, I'll explain more of the problems I have with the primary solution that is being promoted from the original post in this topic. I think there is a much simpler solution -- it's one we already have used in the publications on a closely related set of time periods related to the half-week (3.5-year period) in the final 70th week in the week-of-years prophecy. I don't doubt there are other possibilities that might seem more exciting, but some of those ones here imply that we can currently predict the times and seasons, and this particular period is one in which Jesus said the end events would come like a thief in the night.

I admit that this is more boring than tying current events to Daniel and Revelation, but there are some excellent reasons to look at it this way (I think) starting with the "two witnesses" and the "olive trees" in Revelation 11. Paul explains the two olive trees very well in Romans 11, and we had already used this tie-in to a 3.5 year period in the discussion of the "keys of the kingdom." Note:

*** w79 10/1 p. 23 pars. 1-2 “The Keys of the Kingdom” and the “Great Crowd” ***

• IN THE year 36 C.E. a marked event in Christian history took place in Caesarea on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean Sea. Whether Philip the evangelizer had settled there by that year we do not know for certain. If he had done so, then why was he not used in connection with a certain army officer of the Italian band of soldiers then stationed there? Philip had preceded the apostle Peter in Christian activity in Samaria, so why not now in Caesarea in 36 C.E.? The inspired Scriptures give us the answer. The Law covenant that Moses had mediated between Jehovah God and Israel at Mount Sinai in Arabia was abolished on the basis of the impalement of Jesus Christ, the descendant of Abraham and King David. That was three years and a half from the water baptism and spirit-anointing of Jesus back in 29 C.E. Nevertheless, Jehovah continued to give preferential treatment to the natural Jews and Samaritans also during this period for three years and a half more, to fulfill the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27a. This “week” or period of seven years terminated in the seventh lunar month (Tishri) of 36 C.E. From then on the Israelite descendants of Abraham would be put on the same spiritual level as the people of the non-Jewish nations, the uncircumcised Gentiles. After that no more preferential treatment to the Jews by the God of Abraham! How was this demonstrated in 36 C.E.?

From here, we already have a Biblically consistent tie-in between the two witnesses (the witness to the Jews, and the witness to the Gentiles) and the two olive trees (natural Jewish olive tree and the grafted Gentile olive tree) the 42 months or 1260 days. If we look at a few other events with respect to the week of Pentecost of 33, Christ's ascension, etc., we can attempt to work out the differences between a simple 1260 and 1290 and 1335, but I don't even think this is necessarily the answer here.

16 hours ago, admin said:

Wow  she died of melanoma at the age of 33!!

My daughter would play her album Time After Time, over and over. When I found out that Eva Cassidy had already died well before the album came out, it kind of made a few of the songs sound even more "haunting" than they already were.

Eva Cassidy died at a relatively young (age 33) and has only a couple albums where she sings by herself, most of them stylistic covers. But her ability to put emotion into a song was amazing. Her rendition of "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" is perfect. Wish we had more of her work to listen to.

On 12/13/2019 at 12:35 PM, Anna said:

1914 is such an attractive doctrine.

Very much!

On 12/13/2019 at 12:35 PM, Anna said:

The numbers from Daniel 4 add up quite nicely

The only numbers in the text of Daniel 4 are "7" and "12" (It's 12 months later when he is struck down to the state of a beast) and although we have fairly good Biblical reasons to turn "7 times" into 7 years and therefore 2,520 days, we have very few if any good reasons to turn those 2,520 days into 2,520 years. Remember that the Watchtower NEVER uses 1,260 days to mean a day for a year, so why should 2,520 days mean years?

I have a feeling that if we had not already accepted this particular inconsistency, we would laugh to ourselves if we found out that the Mormons or Catholics or some other religious group had told us: "Well it says 7 years, but it really means 2,520 years." Or, "It says 12 months, but in the greater fulfillment this means 360 years after the dream."

We would think it just as crazy as if they told us that when Jacob worked for Laban to pay the bride-price for Leah for 7 years, and then another 7 years for Rachel, that there was a "greater fulfillment," where the "greater Jacob" must work 2,520 x 2 = 5,040 years, and this means that the end of the millennium will be 5,040 years after the initial fulfillment, or let's say, for example, from 1750 BCE until the "greater promised land," the New World at the end of 1,000 years in 3290. (Therefore the beginning of the 1,000 year reign will be in 2290 CE.) Had this particular year landed some time between 1878 and 1914, instead of 2290, Barbour (and therefore Russell, too) might have latched onto it and made it fit into their chronology.

On 12/13/2019 at 12:35 PM, Anna said:

and then when applied to 607 BCE we arrive at a momentous and significant world event

(Decided to play Bible's Advocate on your post, even though you weren't asking.)

But nothing of that much import actually happened in 607, since this would have been almost 2 years before Nebuchadnezzar became king. At best, it might be within a few months of when Nebuchadnezzar, as a general of his father's army, took a few exiles from Judea to Babylon. And these exiles might have included Daniel. It would also have been within a couple years of the time that Babylon took over from Assyria as the new "world power" with respect to the Middle East. Babylon's hegemony really was of Biblical prophetic significance, but this is a prophecy that the Watchtower is forced to ignore because it would mean that the Bible already corresponds completely with the secular/historical evidence. We need for it NOT to correspond so that we can say it's off by 20 years. Only then can we make it reach 1914.

But you are right in that we do arrive at a momentous and significant world event. (Russell and Barbour had actually used 606 and didn't realize that this actually brings them to October 1915.) But 1915 was also part of a significant world event.

On 12/13/2019 at 12:35 PM, Anna said:

which could be said to be the time when Jesus fought with Satan, (as per Revelation) throwing him out of heaven, to the the vicinity of the earth

Satan is already seen falling from heaven in Luke 10, referring to the defeat of his power over Jesus and his disciples. Then Satan is defeated from heaven in 1914 where he is angry because he has a short period of time. (Has he accepted defeat? Because he nearly had the Bible Students back in 1918/19, but has apparently barely hindered the rate of expansion since the 1940's without any significant persecution among at least 92 percent of Witnesses today. Is his time less short now? Is he tired? Has he changed his methods? Have we changed our understanding of his methods? Was he roving about the earth seeking to devour Christians in Paul's day?)

On 12/13/2019 at 12:35 PM, Anna said:

causing him to be so mad that he arranges for an Archduke to be shot, setting in motion the beginning of a world wide war (pretty significant).

For some reason, we still like Russell's "October 1914" chronology. (See the chart you copied earlier.) Yet, the archduke was shot in July. July, interestingly, was actually much closer to the time of the destruction of Jerusalem, which might indicate just how loathe anyone is to tweak the 1914 doctrine. Probably because we need for Russell to be right about something in his chronology, even though he never predicted a war of this kind. He only predicted the fall of all Gentile institutions on earth, while the Jewish Zionist nation would rise unhindered -- therefore it was called the End of the Gentile Times. It's also partly why, when this failed in 1914, he moved the predictions to 1915.

On 12/13/2019 at 12:35 PM, Anna said:

Also he (Satan), has a short period of time before all his evil shenanigans are brought to an end by a warrior king, Jesus,

This will be a little repetitive. According to the scriptures, Jesus defeated Satan through his life and sacrifice and resurrection. Then in 1914, it's not really much of a defeat, I guess, mostly just sending him down to earth where he needed to be anyway, to be closer to Jesus' disciples in order to persecute them, to walk about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour, just as he was doing in Paul's day. But can we think of any evil shenanigans that Satan tried after 1914 that he had not tried prior to 1914? After Jesus defeats him in 1914, does he defeat him again at Armageddon, perhaps in an even greater way? Then does Jesus defeat him again at the end of the 1,000 years when he is let loose from an abyss.

Most of this makes Biblical sense, except that the 1914 defeat seems the most redundant to me. The kind of defeat he received in the first century has brought Satan to the place where he continues to wage war with the seed of the woman all these centuries since. The "short period of time" phrase is odd, but then even 100 years is an odd short period of time. How long did that battle with Satan last? What changed after that battle? The Bible tells us what changed after he was thrown down in the first century.

What if one of Satan's most clever tactics was to get us to think of 1914 as the beginning of the parousia, so that we would begin to ignore Jesus words about no one knowing the day or the hour? After all the parousia was to arrive at a time when no one expected.

4 hours ago, César Chávez said:

It is indeed sad when people try so hard to end up empty. As stated earlier by an architect of misrepresentation said, it’s an embarrassment.

If I didn't know better, I'd say you are being too hard on yourself. It's a common tendency we all have to just look for things that fit an agenda, and then we miss a lot more evidence that would have given us a more complete picture.

 The 1840 book you quoted: A Treatise on the Chronology and the Prophetical Numbers of the Bible, in a letter addressed to William Cuninghame by Duncan MacDougal is available here: https://books.google.com/books?id=aOliAAAAcAAJ

So yes, it's true that others before Barbour and Russell had already mentioned possibilities for 1914 and dates not that far from it. By one estimate there had been a "[pseudo-]Biblical" prediction for at least half the individual years between 1850 and 1925. You can see some of this in B W Schulz book on Barbour, his other on ZWT, and some comments by Jonsson in GTR, too.

Russell doesn't appear to acknolwedge any of these others directly, but focuses his predictions on those related to William Miller. In fact Russell believed:

• 1,260 days of Daniel ended in 1799
• 1,290 days of Daniel ended in 1829 - because this is when William Miller's adventism got into full swing.
• 1,335 days of Daniel ended in 1874 - also because William Miller's 1844 date corresponded with the Jewish Advent of Jesus, but 1874 with the Christian Advent of "Christ" baptized and anointed (made Christ).

As late as 1925 (Feb 15), the Watch Tower said:

"No doubt Mr. Miller was correct in locating 1844 as a Bible date."

Russell had said the following in Studies in the Scriptures; from the very first 1891 editions, on up to the 1927 editions:

Mr Miller's application of the three and a half times (1260 years) was practically the same as what we have just given . . . It was nevertheless the beginning of the right understanding of the prophecy; for after all, the 1260 period, which he saw correctly, was the key;

In 1881, Russell said:

. . . we believe that this much of this parable met its fulfillment in 1843 and 1844, when William Miller and others, Bible in hand, walked out by faith in its statements . . . . As the former movement in the parable had been represented by Miller and others, so to this second movement we give a similar application. A brother, Barbour of Rochester, was we believe, the chosen vessel of God through whom the "Midnight Cry" issued. . . . proving that the night of the parable was 30 years long, and that the morning was in 1873, and the Bridegroom due in the morning in 1874.

I should mention that just because something was disappointing and included mistakes, it didn't indicate to Russell that God wasn't behind the events and the dates. After all, I think the destruction of the Temple at Jerusalem was a disappointment, too.

Also, one should note that it was a large majority of Russell's early influencers who had been associated with the Millerite movement: Jonas Wendell, George Storrs, George Stetson, N. H. Barbour, B. W. Keith, J. H. Paton, and H. B. Rice. This is why his vocabulary and topics and several doctrines continued to reflect Second Adventism for the rest of his life.

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Does Russell make any distinction for 1844 other than to suggest it was a great disappointment for the second coming churches?

Yes, Russell does make a distinction for 1844 that goes a little beyond just suggesting it was only a great disappointment for the second coming churches.

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Did he use 1844 to further his calculation? Does he mention 1844 to be part of his calculation?

Yes. He absolutely does. He says that according to the Lord's prediction it was 1844 when the Wise Virgins went out to meet the Bridegroom, 30 years before his arrival in 1874. In the parallel dispensations, of course, this mapped to the time when Jesus was born until his baptism at age 30. 1878 mapped to Jesus' death and resurrection.

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Does he stipulate 1910-1911 is referenced in scripture?

No. Russell was definitely going beyond the scriptures when he spoke of what may be expected around 1910. (But then, he was going beyond the scriptures with all the other dates, too.) 

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

It far more interesting, that some continue to project Russell as an Adventist, when Russell was “clearly” criticized for having a negative view of Adventist.

True. They probably do that just because so many of his early associates were Adventist leaders, preachers and publishers. It's important to note that Russell himself claimed to be embarrassed and ashamed by Adventists, not only for all their failed dates, but for exactly what they were expecting on those dates. It was pretty much ONLY in the area of chronology could we say that Russell remained trapped in Adventist thinking for his entire life after the 1870's. For this reason, Russell had some trouble distancing himself from the failures of Adventism, especially after beginning an early publishing venture with NH Barbour, who had been a Millerite Second Adventist and continued to use Miller's chronology as a foundation for his own, including the year 1844.

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Therefore, Russell did not have any influence with Miller’s 1844 prediction nor did Russell use it as basis for comparison.

He absolutely used it as a basis for comparison. He published that it was the wise virgins who came out in 1844, at the same time that the foolish virgins came out in 1844. But he compared the wise and the foolish by saying that those who only stayed stuck on 1844 were foolish, but those who went ahead and began believing that 1874 was the actual date for his arrival (after 30 years of tarrying) were the wise virgins. Being WISE meant accepting the 30 years from 1844 to 1874. Being FOOLISH meant only accepting 1844 and giving up, letting their oil lamps burn out. The LIGHT in their LAMPS was the truth about 1874.

2 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Another sinister feather in the cap of the northern king. Did he want to tie in the Daniel prophesy?

No idea. The primary point was that people would tremble at such signs in the heavens. A space race with military implications was already hinted at in part of the yw book, which was already about Daniel and therefore had the king of the north in its sights.

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

And now you propose that it should all go? What would be the effect of this strange new teaching of yours that Jesus began to rule in 1933–period, end of story—and that WWI was just “boys will be boys?” How will it affect “last days,” ‘urgency of the end,’ ‘the end of all things has drawn close’ ‘ridiculers will come with their ridicule’ and so forth?

Since you are asking, I'll take a cue from 1 Peter 3:15 and let you know what I'm thinking here.

First of all we already believe that Jesus began to rule in 33. (I hope that was a mistake where you said 1933.)

(Colossians 1:13-20) . . .He rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might become the one who is first in all things; 19 because God was pleased to have all fullness to dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all other things by making peace through the blood he shed on the torture stake, whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens.

There is no indication here that the Kingdom of God's Son is any different than the Kingdom of God which had now become the Kingdom of his Christ. In fact, you might notice a couple of other parallels between Colossians and Revelation, including the hurling down of Satan (rescuing us from the authority of the darkness). Also, perhaps by coincidence, the immediate context of Colossians also discussed the salvation and the power and the Kingdom and the authority and the conquering through the blood of the Lamb.

(Revelation 12:10, 11) . . .Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death.

The idea that Satan was cast down in 33 is also repeated several times in the Greek Scriptures.

14 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Did he? Forgive me if it has already been mentioned. On what basis? The bomb was dropped in 1945–or is it that Sputnik is 1957? A hard sell, I would think.

Sputnik specifically. (Or perhaps he knew my birthday was in 1957. His own son's birthday was in 1958.) Yes, it's a hard sell when FWFranz was still the strongest voice on the GB, but he managed to get two other members of the GB to sign on with him in order to present the idea. The basis of the idea comes from a combination of factors, some from the older "yw" Daniel book (Your Will Be Done on Earth), which discussed signs in the heavens from things like Sputnik, and nuclear fears. And some from the then-current explanation of Matthew 24 in the "ka" book which broke the prophecy into 3 different parts, so that the beginning of "this generation" didn't have to be directly tied to the part about the beginning of the parousia with its wars and earthquakes, etc.

On 12/13/2019 at 12:15 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

Moreover, I thought of talks I had put together over the years, using some of the details in those verses. I thought of how I had made a big deal of Rutherford & crew unambiguously ‘advertise, advertise, advertising’ the King and his Kingdom

To coin a phrase: Me too!

The 1914 doctrine has a lot going for it in terms of creating urgency and creating a dramatic interlocking picture of our times. The only thing it doesn't have going for it is a consistent Biblical picture (in my opinion).

But that urgency --based on 1914, specifically-- is already leaving the picture. The urgency for the world is based on a more common sense look at the "critical times" we live in. We often mention the nuclear age, and this is what Brother Bert Schroeder had in mind when he proposed we change the beginning of the generation to 1957. We are looking at climate-related crises that result in wars and migration from lack of fresh water, lack of arable land, soon-to-be food shortage fears just like those of 1975, fires, and more frequent and powerful storms.  

We can still point back to 1914 as a time when the "spirit" of the world took a turn, became more selfish, more violent, and the stability of nations was proven to be illusory.

I don't think we will lose as much as we currently fear.

On 12/13/2019 at 12:15 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

I thought of how I had made a big deal of Rutherford & crew unambiguously ‘advertise, advertise, advertising’ the King and his Kingdom at almost the exact same moment that the Federal Counsel of Churches was hailing the League of Nations as the political expression of the kingdom on earth today—each side publicly parting ways at the fork in the road.

I'm not sure why this would no longer have importance, either. Still, Jesus did not have to just begin ruling just 4 or 5 years prior to our stance on the League of Nations for this to still be a significant turning point in the historical path of our ministry. Jesus did not need to have only been ruling for 8 years when Rutherford made an advertising splash to focus on the idea that Jesus had returned in 1874 and would begin a very visible resurrection in 1925. (As you might recall, 1914 was only a small part of the overall picture that Rutherford was pushing at Cedar Point, OH in 1922.)

And of course, the Watchtower had only very recently (1918) hailed the League of Nations as a very positive political expression of Christ's kingdom on earth, while other groups, including those whom Rutherford might refer to as the "Evil Slave" were already warning against this kind of fellowship with the world.

But none of those errors negate what you said. There was indeed a very public parting of the ways between mainstream religion and the Bible Students starting around 1919 which reached a culmination over the next decade.

1 minute ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I don’t see any backing off of 1914 whatsoever.

Yes, of course. And this issue of the 1,260 and Revelation 11 from this week's meeting was actually the real reason I started this topic. But I do not expect that any trend is being looked at for the purpose of backing off from 1914. I think that this is a bit backwards. I think that the fewer and fewer discussions of Jesus' kingship and presence in 1914 will result in a rethinking of this particular use of the 1914 date.

Also, 1914 will ALWAYS have a place in our preaching, just because it helps us to mark the times we live in now as a fulfillment of prophecy for a time when men will become faint out of fear and expectation, and a time when the creation is groaning for release.

Here's a start. But I can't get into Daniel 4 without something like the following as a "preamble:"

"What Does Bible Chronology Indicate About the Year 1914?"

The Bible’s answer

23 minutes ago, Anna said:

Could you post the link to one?

There are dozens. When I mentioned going back 300 years I was thinking that a lot of people start with Matthew Henry's from the 1700's.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/mhc/Dan/Dan_004.cfm?a=854001

But there are many more modern ones these days that might appear too long, but that's partly because they also reprint the entire Bible text, split up into sections.

https://wernerbiblecommentary.org/?q=node/732

https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/jfb/Dan/Dan_004.cfm?a=854001

https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/smith_chuck/c2000_Dan/Dan_001.cfm?a=854001

The Chapter 4 portion of this one, above, includes the following supposition:

The seven times are probably a year and three quarters. Referring to the summer, fall, winter, spring, rather than seven years. And so for a year and three quarters, king Nebuchadnezzar was to be insane. He was to live with the ox and out in the field. He was to eat grass like a wild animal. This was to continue until he realize that the God in heaven is the One who rules over the earth as far as establishing kingdoms and setting in power those whom He will. God still rules in the overall sense. And sometimes God puts evil men into power in order to bring judgment upon the people. But God rules over all. So after Daniel interprets, he said, "Now look, king, straighten up, man. Live right. You know, it may be that you can increase the days of your peace because you know this is going to come on you. But maybe by living right you can forestall it a bit."

[Others have guessed 7 "time periods" were 7 months. But the point is, that we don't know for sure]

https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/guzik_david/StudyGuide2017-Dan/Dan-4.cfm?a=854001

That one, above, includes the idea that if there is any further prophetic significance to the dream, that it could mean this:

Some find prophetic significance in this account. Since Babylon is used in the Scriptures as a figure of the world system in general, we can say:

· Nebuchadnezzar’s madness foreshadows the madness of Gentile nations in their rejection of God.

· Nebuchadnezzar’s fall typifies Jesus’ judgment of the nations.

· Nebuchadnezzar’s restoration foreshadows the restoring of some of these nations in the millennial kingdom.

 

8 minutes ago, Anna said:

10 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

do you mean go first to explain Daniel 4 in a simpler way (without 1914)

Yes

That's already been done. Just read nearly any Bible commentary on Daniel 4 written during the last 300 years or so.