JW Insider

22 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

“It’s the arrangement,” I told her. 

Sounds like you belong in an institution.

5 minutes ago, Anna said:

Lol. Yes, fine by me of course. Sorry for changing the topic. I blame Witness.

Actually, you are right. I'll put off trying because I hadn't figured out how to extract the topic from all the other comments since Witness brought it up. Maybe we can leave it here and just let it come up elsewhere if anyone wants to restart it elsewhere. I didn't want to talk about it, but saw how much info you provided. It's a lot of good info and thought it might not get looked at properly without a new topic.

On 10/7/2019 at 7:54 AM, Jack Ryan said:

I think it is to subtly highlight (manipulate) that the marriage is an "arrangement" or contract by the JW's and "Jehovah" - rather than a "marriage" between two people. "Marriage" makes it sound like it is their own personal and private bond that doesn't necessarily involve the JWs or "Jehovah".

I don't think it's subtle. I think it's exactly intended to do what you say: to make us think of Jehovah's arrangement. It's the way Jesus spoke of marriage, as an arrangement set up in the beginning by God, between one man and one woman.

Besides, it's a little better than the "institution of marriage" because that sounds too much like, well, an "institution." A common expression in the Southern U.S. was "the institution of slavery." I'm not making any connection between the two, however.

@Anna, Can these posts about Rutherford/Hitler be moved to a new topic? I'll check with TTH of course, but I think I can still do this. 

3 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

The Early church fathers and early paintings depict Jesus as white, blonde hair, blue-eyed individual.

Did you make this up?

2 hours ago, Anna said:

surely someone would have known that Jesus, as a middle eastern Jew, couldn't have looked like this

16 hours ago, Allen_Smith said:

The thing to note, ex-witnesses have a hard time giving full account on matters that are no longer part of the Org.

I think this is true in the case of Redwood. In spite of an air of superiority as if he is the expert that everyone needs to acknowledge in these cases, he appears to be driven by hatred of elders, and hatred of the Watchtower organization. I believe he was involved in a write-up that I read on the Atlantic.com. That article had a couple of serious mistakes in it, and tries to make the case against the Watchtower look much worse than the evidence he offers.

3 hours ago, Allen_Smith said:

I have no doubt, I will be banned again.

I hope not. Welcome back!!

3 hours ago, Allen_Smith said:

However, some here are under the impression, everyone that supported my stance of exposing those that are not genuine continue to insist everyone is me.

I never was under that impression. There still are several others who support your stance to expose those who are not genuine. I've supported your stance on several issues myself. As for me, I would never have insisted everyone was you. However, it was literally dozens of accounts, if memory serves, most of which did not have "AllenSmith" anywhere in the name. 

It occurs to me that the GB's original belief about Armageddon and the 1,000 year reign was not so different than the belief from some other denominations that say that the 1,000 year reign started in the first century (some would say 70 CE).

Being a figurative time period, they say this thousand year reign is the one we are already in, and that might actually last for two thousand or even three thousand years after the first century. Then when Christ's worldwide "Parousia/Synteleia" occurs (Judgment Day/Armageddon), the rest of the dead come to life at that time, which is same as the the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous, in time for "Judgment Day." They say that this is how "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him."  And of course it allows for Revelation to say the following WITHOUT parentheses in the way that the NWT has added. (Biblehub, not the NWT, is shown below.)

4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection!

But this common solution is not really a better solution, because those of the first resurrection have come back to rule with Christ in his thousand year reign, which is then interpreted as lasting forever. It's illogical to have it mean both a limited time and an eternal reign. Adding the parentheses, as done in the NWT, is actually one of the simplest solutions, except that it effectively allows for TWO judgment days, one at Armageddon and one at the end of the 1,000 years of literal reign. (Although we do believe that they continue to reign forever, not just for a thousand-year reign, the 1,000 years has a special purpose of bringing "the rest of the dead back to life." This can include those resurrected during the period and the rest of those who may have never physically died, but who gain unending life due to 'passing the test' at the end of a literal 1,000 year period.)

It's interesting to look at how this teaching has changed over the years according to the Watchtower. Back in 1919, when we say that Jesus picked the top Watch Tower Society's leaders to be the Governing Body that made up the entire "Faithful and Discreet Slave" at the time, they taught a very different version of this.

Back then, and for several more years, the Governing Body taught that they were already in the thousand year reign. By the mid-1920's, the Watchtower was teaching that the millennium had started more than half a century earlier, and therefore had only about 950 years to go. By the mid 1920's, a resurrection would begin of all the persons worthy of a resurrection to earthly life, starting with the "ancient worthies" of Bible renown. 

"The year 1926 would therefore begin about October first, 1925.... We should, 
therefore, expect shortly after 1925 to see the awakening of Abel, Enoch, Noah, 
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Melchisedec, Job, Moses, Samuel, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, 
Ezekiel, Daniel, John the Baptist, and others mentioned in the eleventh chapter of 
Hebrews." The Way to Paradise p. 224 

"That among those who will be thus the faithful representatives and visible 
governors of the world will be David, who was once King of Israel; and Gideon, and 
Barak, and Samson, and Jepthai, and Joseph, formerly ruler of Egypt, and Samuel 
the prophet and other faithful men named with approval in the Bible at Hebrews 
11th chapter." -- Public Records Deed to the San Diego Property, Beth Sarim 

Remember that these men were not Christians (prior to John the Baptist) and Russell had long taught that all Christians (including the Great Crowd) will go to heaven, but that all persons prior to John the Baptist could be resurrected to life on earth. (The Great Crowd were anointed Christians, and were going to heaven because they were Christians.) Russell had taught that 144,000 of those anointed Christians had an even higher calling to be Christ's Bride. The other millions of Christians in heaven would not be part of Christ's Bride. 

But the resurrection of ancient worthies, starting about one Jubilee (50 years) into the 1,000-year reign, was only a start. Since we were in the millennium, it was also true that more and more people would be resurrected over the next 950 years, and that MILLIONS more persons would stop dying. MILLIONS of non-"Bible Students" (non-"JWs") would begin to live forever, or at least another 950 years before the next big test around the year 2873 or 2874.

(The "Millions Now Living Who Would NEVER Die" would also NEVER be part of the Great Crowd according to that teaching.)

If the WT/GB had kept that belief, we would now be nearly 145 years into the thousand year reign, with only 855 years to go. And more and more people would be added to those MILLIONS living in 1925 who would never die. The rest of the dead, including those who continued to die along with those of us already enjoying long lives, would come to life in resurrections at later times during the 1,000 years. (This part I don't have a consistent answer on yet, as to what we taught exactly about when people would stop dying, and when the resurrections might be considered complete.) By now, however, if the old teaching had held, there could be people still alive who had been born, for example, in 1825 (100 years old in 1925) and therefore already approaching their 200th birthday.

There was also the idea that Armageddon was already starting back then, more than 100 years ago, based on the clashes between workers and management, socialists and capitalists, etc. The solution was to change this to a different kind of Armageddon to happen in the future, not so much "among the nations" but at God's hands. And the 1,000-year reign would start immediately after Armageddon was finished.

We should keep in mind that Revelation is the kind of book that has always allowed for a variety of interpretations, and we currently teach that the above interpretation was not so far off so as to move Jesus to reject or disqualify the "faithful slave" for serving that as spiritual food.

14 hours ago, The Librarian said:

at the site of the Biblical city of Gezer, which lies toward the coastal plain west of Jerusalem: a small limestone plaque, or tablet, believed to be from the tenth century B.C.E. On it, in ancient Hebrew script, was found what is thought to be a simplified version of an agricultural year

Some other pictures make this clearer:

The language is "Hebrew" and the writing is still using the"Paleo-Hebrew" letters that are associated with Phoenician and "pre-Hebrew" Mycenaean alphabets. Hebrew could have been much older as a spoken language, but in written form, Hebrew characters developed from earlier Mycenaean/Phoenician alphabets. In 10th century (BC) documents this is the alphabet still used, and over time the Hebrew characters began dropping some of these close association with Mycenaean. It might make one wonder what the alphabet on the stones of the 10 commandments looked like, perhaps half-a-millennium earlier. 

Also note that many of the actual items harvested (grapes, wheat, olives) are never actually mentioned, only assumed. The way this actually shortens the verses makes me think (maybe) that this might have been lyrics to a song.

It's also interesting that the plural word for month is apparently used as a "dual." You get 12 months total, only if the word "months" must always mean TWO months. [Although consider the Hebrew leap year, of 13 months] Also of interest is that the Bible usually uses the word CHODESH for month, and the word used here is YERAHH (YERACH). An interesting development in the different uses is found here. But the Biblical plural for YERACH is YERACHIM. The plural (likley limited to dual) in the calendar is YRCHW (unknown pronunciation).

6 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I just heard people talking about him in the Darkroom lounge, and later saw a picture

It's not pretty, but it's a pretty amazing thing he did.

9 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

He knew he was going to die

This particular photo is the Red Pinto photo, and the usual story is that it was taken by Lasher a survivor, and the person you refer to is a newspaper reporter/photograher named Robert Landsberg.

Note this take on it from https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2019/07/26/the-story-behind-that-photo-of-the-pinto-in-front-of-the-mt-st-helens-eruption/ :

Had Lasher made it even over the next ridge, he’d almost certainly have died. According to Cooper’s telling of the story, “Luckily for him, and he did not realize until later just how lucky, he was on the opposite side of that ridge in front, because the entire forest was flattened from the ridge down, and he was in the lee side and protected from most of the blast.”

He did, however, realize that he had to get out of there in a hurry. Though the volcano blew out a pyroclastic flow almost due north and Lasher found himself more northeast of the blast, one mapshows that temperatures near where Lasher found himself rose to 680 degrees Fahrenheit. According to the same map, most of the 57 people who died that day were positioned to the north or northwest of the volcano, but at least four of them were in Lasher’s vicinity.

. . .

(Cooper or Lasher may have conflated this part of the story with the fate of Robert Landsberg, a newspaper photographer who, upon realizing he wouldn’t be able to escape the eruption after photographing it, carefully rewound his film, packed away his camera gear, and laid over the gear to preserve his shots.)

. . .

So, yes, the photographer behind that mystery photograph did survive to see it widely disseminated. 

9 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

He knew he was going to die, so he put his camera, with film on the ground, with his wallet, and laid on top of it .

His body was recovered, and the film also.

What did you do with his wallet?

Too soon?

54 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Hoping for the best, he or she throws anyway.

41 minutes ago, Equivocation said:

some who have thr ban hammer sometimes use it with bad intentions.

I'm sure that has happened before.  Although it sounds like a completely different kind of forum where such experiences were known, where the admin was involved with or cared about the topics being discussed. I get the feeling that the admin here is probably not even happy that most of the posts and activity are centered around a specific religion, when he or she would evidently like to see it broaden out. The posts from the admin are almost always outside of the topics that most of us participate in.

BTW, others in the past have pointed out that you have often used a unique vocabulary on this forum (anachronistic slang). Because I have probably created suspicion in the past by pointing out evidence that associates various accounts with BTK/Allen/divergenceOK/etc., I just wanted you to know that I have never considered you @Equivocation to be one of his aliases. This name may very well be an secondary account for someone else, but not related to any from BTK/Allen/divergenceOK/etc.

3 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

You're still here.

So is Allen Smith.

3 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

You ban someone

I have never banned anyone. And if I had the power to ban someone from this forum, I wouldn't.

I don't believe it's useful to ban anyone from an Internet forum. The Internet is full of persons dealing with obsessive-compulsive disorders, manic-depressive tendencies, and a host of other disorders and tendencies and social difficulties. Internet forums attract such persons and we can never tell who is suffering from any of these issues and who isn't. And perhaps that often goes for admins and site owners, too. Who of us when trying to judge others of such things, is fully aware of our own mental and social failings?

As far as I'm concerned, everyone can stay, and forum software should allow individuals the ability to choose who they choose to read from. A forum owner or admin should have the ability to perform some actions against a specific post, if there is good reason and if other persons are bringing it to their attention. But they should not take it upon themselves to remove anyone's posting privileges, and they should definitely not delete all of that person's past posts.  The rebuke of the majority should be enough for them.

Contemporary English Version
(2 Cor 2:6) Most of you have already pointed out the wrong that person did, and this is punishment enough for what was done.

I don't think any of us really can know the effect of upvoting and downvoting on others. I believe that the only person I have ever down-voted, at least in the last few years, is JTR. Never any of Allen's or his minions. I think JTR can take it, and even more of his posts have deserved a downvote, in my opinion, than the ones I have actually downvoted. Upvotes and laughs I give out liberally, but I don't use the "Ha-Ha" as a way of expressing haughty derision the way that Allen and most of his other identities were apt to use it.

Some obviously come here because they love the banter, they love to have their ideas challenged, they love to be provocative, or they love to find persons they can feel 'holier than.' Some come here because they can learn interesting things about subjects they are interested in, things they might not have considered. In the case of Witnesses, I think that many of us enjoyed the challenge of meeting that preacher when out in service who would challenge us and we'd stay for half an hour. (Guilty!) I used to start Bible Studies by the dozens, literally, with college students, for up to two years per study, and many would come up with some difficulties I had never heard of before. A very low percentage were ever baptized, about 3 out of 30. Now, we just don't do that anymore.  Perhaps some of us miss it.

11 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

in his rhinoceros suit

But then you'd be a Rhino in name only.

18 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

Some of us also know TTH gives JWinsider the position to "delete" people that are being honest and disagree.

And if I do a good enough job doing that, TTH will finally give me the keys to delete people who are being dishonest and who agree. But he's a tough taskmaster, gathering where he does not winnow, reaping where he does not sow, etc. etc. And for some unknown reason he always carries a tape measure with him to see how far he can spit!  (?!?!?)

On 9/29/2019 at 6:45 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

he himself will throw in that item about the rhinoceros at the zoo that stomped over that child, as though that, too, was a sign of the last days, and get everyone going again.

This  struck my humerus bone. I'm sure you are aware that some (mostly pioneers) are being asked to try out a even more informal witnessing strategy at places like malls, shopping centers, etc: Just practice making use of almost any situation to bring up a scripture or short Bible-based comment and if it "connects" keep going, and if not, just leave it at that.

It made me imagine that TTH would just hang around places waiting for bad things to happen and try out his "last days" spiel. Or perhaps he'd be a little more proactive, and listen on his police radio for his next opportunity, or perhaps even do a bit of "ambulance chasing." 

1 hour ago, Arguis Maxus said:

time to send in Cantanqueronius. He doesn’t take so kindly to being outed.

I wouldn't think of it. I promise.

By the way, while I'm here, can we renegotiate that 95/5 split of these profits that we agreed on? I'm not feeling the love, and would like to change it to 96/4. Have your people call my people! After I finish the back nine, we'll do lunch. OK?

1 hour ago, Arguis Maxus said:

Yes. It is time for the real owners, JWI and TTH to reveal themselves once and for all.

That's not you playing around with aliases again, just to confuse everyone, is it TTH?

4 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

Just because JWinsider as an owner allows it, doesn't mean its good.

Allen (and divergenceKO): JW Insider is not an owner of this forum. I have absolutely nothing to do with the site or the owners here. You are as just as much an owner here as I am. I have no way of knowing for sure that you are not the admin, or The Librarian, or Jack or Witness or JTR.

Of course, you leave no evidence that you are any of those persons I just named but you do leave a lot of  evidence that identifies you as the same person I first encountered on this site when you called yourself Allen Smith, not that I really thought that was your real name either, of course.

But none of that matters. I just wanted you to know that your assumption was wrong.

But you are right that the forum is often not good. I won't participate on Jehovahs-Witness.com because I see too many ridiculers when a serious Bible topic is brought up. I don't claim that my own discussions here are always the right way to go about creating discussions either. I've made several mistakes, and much of what I say, upon review, is stated as if it is more than speculation and opinion. But I can promise you again that, when it comes to Bible topics, whether it sounds right or wrong, strong or weak,  fact or opinion, whether it agrees with the Watchtower or disagrees -- it is still basically just opinion. That's why I'm here: to share opinions. I hope that doesn't confuse anyone.

4 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

By the way ... you do realize that all wood is made from the carbon in the atmosphere, and not the dirt .  Photosynthesis busts apart CO2, and the tree keeps the carbon to make wood, and throws the oxygen away.

Every climate scientists realizes this. And everyone should know it. The scientists are looking at what accounts for the excess CO₂. It would be like putting half a cup of ice in a glass and getting a full cup of water when it melts. Everyone should understand why you might get nearly half a cup.