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JW Insider

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  1. Thanks
    JW Insider got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in Furuli's new e-book: "My Beloved Religion - And The Governing Body"   
    Looks like partly a copy and paste. But not, evidently, to give a different perspective. It seems quite possible that the words could have been that way in a 5/24/2020 edition and not in a 5/25/2020 edition.
    I say this because the book gives evidence of rushed last-minute organization and some sloppy editing. There is a lot of unnecessary repetition, and a couple of mistakes and typos. Sometimes with such e-books the author has the opportunity to make changes on the fly and continue editing as early copies are going out. 
    Here are the closest quotes to yours. Yours matches the supposed quote at https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2020/05/26/in-new-book-a-prominent-jehovahs-witness-trashes-the-faiths-governing-body/

    Today the members of the GB have all power in connection with the
    doctrines, the assets, and the money. No one has the right to question their
    decisions or their words. And this collides head-on with the words of Paul
    in Galatians 5:1 (NWT13):
    And in another place he says:
    I believe that the members of the GB are sincere
    persons. But they have taken a position among the Witnesses that violates
    many Bible principles. They have become a government with all power.
    And in another place he says:
    During the last part of the 20th century, the members of the GB gave
    themselves more and more power at the expense of the bodies of elders .
    The GB functions as a government for JW with unlimited power over the
    doctines [sic], the assets, and the money.
    And in another place he says:
    Because no one can call the members of the GB to
    account, they have been able to lead the organization in the direction of
    their choice-they have formed the organization into their own image.
    The present organizational structure, where the members of the GB
    believe that they have both the obligation and the right to be a government
    for Jehovah's Witnesses, has created great problems.
    And in another place he says;
    The problem, however, is that the definitions of apostasy are self serving
    because it is the GB who defines what "Jehovah's arrangement"
    is. And the definition is that the GB serves as a government for JW with
    unlimited power. Thus, any opposition to the GB is per definition
    apostasy because it "is undermining the confidence of the brothers in
    Jehovah's arrangement."
    In spite of the fact that the GB has the upper hand, my conscience
    has driven me to write this book, and I leave the judgment to Jehovah.
    And in another place he says:
    Because I have had responsible positions during
    these years, I have witnessed how the organization has gradually become
    more and more autocratic, until we have the situation today with the GB
    functioning as the government of JW with unlimited power.
    And in another place he says:
    If a Catholic man . . . becomes a member of a JW congregation, the man becomes a part of an organization
    that is more hierarchical and more dictatorial than the Catholic Church. This is a
    situation that violates several Bible principles.
    And in another place he says:
    This situation shows that many Witnesses today view the eight men in the GB almost as prophets and oracles. They are the only ones that can teach others the Bible, and we must follow them
    closely.
    So all the words are there, some in different places, and it would take some cutting and pasting to produce the exact same sentence in the quote you found. But that quote does not manipulate the meaning of Furuli's quotes, so I suspect they may have easily once existed in the Introduction (or another place?) as you quoted them. Or the site was very sloppy. Either way, what Furuli actually said sounds very similar, overall.
  2. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Patiently waiting for Truth in Furuli's new e-book: "My Beloved Religion - And The Governing Body"   
    Looks like partly a copy and paste. But not, evidently, to give a different perspective. It seems quite possible that the words could have been that way in a 5/24/2020 edition and not in a 5/25/2020 edition.
    I say this because the book gives evidence of rushed last-minute organization and some sloppy editing. There is a lot of unnecessary repetition, and a couple of mistakes and typos. Sometimes with such e-books the author has the opportunity to make changes on the fly and continue editing as early copies are going out. 
    Here are the closest quotes to yours. Yours matches the supposed quote at https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2020/05/26/in-new-book-a-prominent-jehovahs-witness-trashes-the-faiths-governing-body/

    Today the members of the GB have all power in connection with the
    doctrines, the assets, and the money. No one has the right to question their
    decisions or their words. And this collides head-on with the words of Paul
    in Galatians 5:1 (NWT13):
    And in another place he says:
    I believe that the members of the GB are sincere
    persons. But they have taken a position among the Witnesses that violates
    many Bible principles. They have become a government with all power.
    And in another place he says:
    During the last part of the 20th century, the members of the GB gave
    themselves more and more power at the expense of the bodies of elders .
    The GB functions as a government for JW with unlimited power over the
    doctines [sic], the assets, and the money.
    And in another place he says:
    Because no one can call the members of the GB to
    account, they have been able to lead the organization in the direction of
    their choice-they have formed the organization into their own image.
    The present organizational structure, where the members of the GB
    believe that they have both the obligation and the right to be a government
    for Jehovah's Witnesses, has created great problems.
    And in another place he says;
    The problem, however, is that the definitions of apostasy are self serving
    because it is the GB who defines what "Jehovah's arrangement"
    is. And the definition is that the GB serves as a government for JW with
    unlimited power. Thus, any opposition to the GB is per definition
    apostasy because it "is undermining the confidence of the brothers in
    Jehovah's arrangement."
    In spite of the fact that the GB has the upper hand, my conscience
    has driven me to write this book, and I leave the judgment to Jehovah.
    And in another place he says:
    Because I have had responsible positions during
    these years, I have witnessed how the organization has gradually become
    more and more autocratic, until we have the situation today with the GB
    functioning as the government of JW with unlimited power.
    And in another place he says:
    If a Catholic man . . . becomes a member of a JW congregation, the man becomes a part of an organization
    that is more hierarchical and more dictatorial than the Catholic Church. This is a
    situation that violates several Bible principles.
    And in another place he says:
    This situation shows that many Witnesses today view the eight men in the GB almost as prophets and oracles. They are the only ones that can teach others the Bible, and we must follow them
    closely.
    So all the words are there, some in different places, and it would take some cutting and pasting to produce the exact same sentence in the quote you found. But that quote does not manipulate the meaning of Furuli's quotes, so I suspect they may have easily once existed in the Introduction (or another place?) as you quoted them. Or the site was very sloppy. Either way, what Furuli actually said sounds very similar, overall.
  3. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from TrueTomHarley in Furuli's new e-book: "My Beloved Religion - And The Governing Body"   
    Probably true, Tom. I already knew that I would probably agree with plenty of his arguments related to his current view on the FDS and higher education. But so much more that he says, has already been said in so many words over here on this forum. Some of it very recently. The areas where many of us have long defended the Witness position with respect to war, neutrality, the two different hopes of salvation, use of God's name, identifying principles of the true religion, the value of a leadership body with respect to efficiently carrying out a worldwide preaching work, etc., etc. You'd think that he came over here and picked up a few ideas, although I'm sure he had already come to these positions through the WT publications and his own experience in defending them.
    On higher education, he tends to present it a bit too positively, without enough warning about some of same dangers that have hurt Witnesses, sometimes spiritually, sometimes economically. I think he is too focused on how well it worked out for himself, and perhaps schools in Norway are more serious than some of the party destinations that attract students in the United States. To him most higher education is Biblically neutral, and he tends to promote higher education for those who can make room for it.
    A lot of Witnesses (remember JTR?) have complained about the "dumbing down" of study habits and the lower levels of effort put into really learning scriptural and spiritual matters for ourselves. His issues with the NWT 2013 are also identical to things that have been said here in that regard. Furuli is not terribly consistent with his favorite subjects and pet peeves, but he has managed to explain the issues in very practical terms better than I've seen before.
  4. Haha
    JW Insider reacted to TrueTomHarley in Furuli's new e-book: "My Beloved Religion - And The Governing Body"   
    I could have told you that beforehand.
  5. Thanks
    JW Insider reacted to Arauna in Furuli's new e-book: "My Beloved Religion - And The Governing Body"   
    If one looks at the kind of 'science' in scholarship these days - where a  person can now choose a gender despite a Y or X chromosome -  then the state of scholarship is in chaos.  
    The most prestigious universities get grants from certain pharma giants and then a study appears shortly after which just happens to bring more money into the pocket of the corporation. Now that is excellent scholarship!
    So much for scholarship....... although I must say one has to work exceedingly hard to get a PHD in an ancient language - three times harder than the social sciences - but this does not make you an expert on 'everything' pertaining to the bible. 
    Nevertheless, Feruli's years of service and record sounds commendable and maybe qualifies him to have a negative say about the direction of GB....... but must he do it so publicly? ......So as to garner undue attention to his person and his scholarship? 
    I would like to know the outcome of this.....   
    An important question.....
    Anyone can say something " just because they think they are qualified to do so". 
    Lol......
    Thanks Ann.  I guess the older I get the lazier the eyes and brain.... 
     
  6. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Anna in Furuli's new e-book: "My Beloved Religion - And The Governing Body"   
    Speaking of Kosonen, a few things remind me of him, too. Even the tone of offering unheeded "correction" but also this idea Furuli has:
    There is also a need for an
    independent group of elders to review all the human commandments that
    the GB has invented and to remove those that are not based on the Bible,
    and which have caused harm for individual Witnesses.
    But Furuli's book is starting to sound more like a Raymond Franz sequel (on those few points where they agree). Comparisons between the organizational hierarchy and the Catholic Church are even stronger here than in Franz' books. He even seems to acknowledge (or idealize) that there was a short period of time that immediately followed when R.Franz presented the scriptural meaning of elder, etc., to Knorr and FW Franz, and they humbly accepted the loss of power and authority.
    I could go on an on with commentary, but I'll try to save it until I'm finished. Else I won't finish.
  7. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Space Merchant in ....and like Forest Gump said "... and that's all I am going to say about that."   
    Just in case anyone wasn't aware, a few of JTR's recent posts had moved in this same direction, and I thought I'd share the entire song from which JTR referenced a couple of the lyrics. It struck me as too sad to respond immediately. Although I would not think it enough to draw any conclusions:
      "Seasons In The Sun"
    (originally by Jacques Brel)
    Terry Jacks (performer)
    Goodbye to you my trusted friend
    We've known each other since we were nine or ten
    Together we've climbed hills and trees
    Learned of love and ABCs
    Skinned our hearts and skinned our knees

    Goodbye my friend, it's hard to die
    When all the birds are singing in the sky
    Now that the spring is in the air
    Pretty girls are everywhere
    Think of me and I'll be there

    We had joy, we had fun
    We had seasons in the sun
    But the hills that we climbed
    Were just seasons out of time

    Goodbye papa, please pray for me
    I was the black sheep of the family
    You tried to teach me right from wrong
    Too much wine and too much song
    Wonder how I got along

    Goodbye papa, it's hard to die
    When all the birds are singing in the sky
    Now that the spring is in the air
    Little children everywhere
    When you see them, I'll be there

    We had joy, we had fun
    We had seasons in the sun
    But the wine and the song
    Like the seasons, have all gone

    We had joy, we had fun
    We had seasons in the sun
    But the wine and the song
    Like the seasons, have all gone

    Goodbye Michelle, my little one
    You gave me love and helped me find the sun
    And every time that I was down
    You would always come around
    And get my feet back on the ground

    Goodbye Michelle, it's hard to die
    When all the birds are singing in the sky
    Now that the spring is in the air
    With the flowers everywhere
    I wish that we could both be there

    We had joy, we had fun
    We had seasons in the sun
    But the stars we could reach
    Were just starfish on the beach

    We had joy, we had fun
    We had seasons in the sun
    But the stars we could reach
    Were just starfish on the beach

    We had joy, we had fun
    We had seasons in the sun
    But the wine and the song
    Like the seasons, have all gone

    All our lives we had fun
    We had seasons in the sun
    But the hills that we climbed
    Were just seasons out of time

    We had joy, we had fun
    We had seasons in the sun  
  8. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Arauna in Furuli's new e-book: "My Beloved Religion - And The Governing Body"   
    Speaking of Kosonen, a few things remind me of him, too. Even the tone of offering unheeded "correction" but also this idea Furuli has:
    There is also a need for an
    independent group of elders to review all the human commandments that
    the GB has invented and to remove those that are not based on the Bible,
    and which have caused harm for individual Witnesses.
    But Furuli's book is starting to sound more like a Raymond Franz sequel (on those few points where they agree). Comparisons between the organizational hierarchy and the Catholic Church are even stronger here than in Franz' books. He even seems to acknowledge (or idealize) that there was a short period of time that immediately followed when R.Franz presented the scriptural meaning of elder, etc., to Knorr and FW Franz, and they humbly accepted the loss of power and authority.
    I could go on an on with commentary, but I'll try to save it until I'm finished. Else I won't finish.
  9. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Thinking in Furuli's new e-book: "My Beloved Religion - And The Governing Body"   
    So far, I can't help but see a strong parallel between Ray Franz and Rolf Furuli's choice of words, style and even some of his entire talking points. I already had five R.F. marks in the margins (pdf) before even got out of the Introduction. And it started not to matter whether the R.F. stood for Rolf Furuli or Ray Franz, so I stopped highlighting those kinds of parallels.
    Two of the parallels are so "eerie" that I wonder how aware Furuli is about how they sound. Here's one:
    Ray Franz became associated with the term "captives of a concept" as a way to explain how and why the GB see themselves in a position that is so difficult to explain Biblically. Furuli hits several of Ray Franz' points in the same order that Franz presents them:
    I do not question
    the sincerity of the members of the GB. But it seems to me that they are
    held captive by their belief that they are chosen by God as "the faithful
    and discreet slave," and that they have been appointed over Jehovah's
    Witnesses as their government with unlimited power.
    Here's another one, that echos the theme of R.Franz' second book:
    This letter shows that the members of the GB believe that they have
    the right to . . .
    overrule the consciences of individual Witnesses. But this is an attack on
    the Christian freedom that Paul mentioned in Galatians 5.1.
    Of course, that doesn't necessarily go to your point about Furuli's goals, because Ray Franz' style appeared to be much more reluctant about saying anything, but explained how he had been forced into a corner to explain himself due to rampant misinformation. This rang true with Ray Franz that he had never wanted to leave the organization, or try to do anything that would get him in any kind of trouble that would force anyone to try to make him leave, or try to undermine anything to do with current doctrines or teachings, after settling into his congregation. The problem apparently started only when the congregation wanted to use Ray Franz as an elder, and the local elders wrote the Society to find out if that would be appropriate. Until then there was apparently no reason to go after Ray Franz to try to get him disfellowshipped. So, "Chairman Ray" may have been the very opposite of your revolutionary. And Furuli is setting himself up similarly as a non-revolutionary.
    One major difference is that Furuli has evidently taken a more proactive role, and pretty much admits to assuming that he won't be answered, just because they haven't dealt with him or his issues yet. You might have nailed it when you wondered just how he knows they are refusing to consider his "corrections." But I'm pretty sure that he knows. He knows what is inevitable, or at least what would have been inevitable if he hadn't got this book out there first.
    A former circuit and district overseer can read the signs, especially one whose work has previously been welcomed into the hearing of the GB.
  10. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Ann O'Maly in Furuli's new e-book: "My Beloved Religion - And The Governing Body"   
    Yes. I am aware. I'm just surprised, especially after reading and studying and discussing his last two books. I am aware of your stated position about them.
    I doubt that his views on chronology are firm. He gives plenty of evidence that he does not really believe they are firm. They are definitely not "established" in the least, except as weak theories he could never honestly defend. About all he ever established is that he was "clever" but incapable of dealing with the necessary issues related to chronology. Even amateurs like myself have had no trouble seeing through the scheme.
    😊
    Interesting. Perhaps he is in the process of sacrificing his association with Witnesses so that he will be the first non-Witness scholar in history to claim that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BCE.
    I have another theory as to what he is doing, much less interesting, but in total keeping with the evidence he has already documented about his ego, personality and track record. I'll see if it makes sense after reading his book (tomorrow).
  11. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Ann O'Maly in Furuli's new e-book: "My Beloved Religion - And The Governing Body"   
    Speaking of Kosonen, a few things remind me of him, too. Even the tone of offering unheeded "correction" but also this idea Furuli has:
    There is also a need for an
    independent group of elders to review all the human commandments that
    the GB has invented and to remove those that are not based on the Bible,
    and which have caused harm for individual Witnesses.
    But Furuli's book is starting to sound more like a Raymond Franz sequel (on those few points where they agree). Comparisons between the organizational hierarchy and the Catholic Church are even stronger here than in Franz' books. He even seems to acknowledge (or idealize) that there was a short period of time that immediately followed when R.Franz presented the scriptural meaning of elder, etc., to Knorr and FW Franz, and they humbly accepted the loss of power and authority.
    I could go on an on with commentary, but I'll try to save it until I'm finished. Else I won't finish.
  12. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Anna in Some Watchtower trivia you might not see anywhere else   
    My last name is not Crispell, but one of my living uncles still has the middle name of Crispell. Their story is partly told at the link below. I don't really know how many of these stories are true. Some of the family is currently back in Charleston and they say that the move from originally from Charleston to Walkill/Kingston/NewPaltz. But some stories have them coming over directly to New York. I never bothered to trace whether both versions were true for different parts of the family.
    https://www.huguenotstreet.org/crispell
    Thanks for telling parts of your story. This kind of history is interesting. A lot of people don't know just how seriously the Catholic/Protestant divide has affected history over the last 500 years. It's no wonder that so many of the prophecies in Revelation were originally seen in those terms.
  13. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Anna in Some Watchtower trivia you might not see anywhere else   
    When I first came to this site I chose the name "The Bible's Advocate" to discuss some doctrinal issues. But I never used it. I "temporarily" chose the name "JW Insider" because I also wanted to share a couple dozen trivia items that I figured no one else would be sharing. But I never got around to sharing the trivia items. By now, I'm stuck with "JW Insider" although I don't really like the name. And I also decided that the trivia items were . . . well . . .  too trivial to worry about.
    But I figured I might start sharing a few more things and see how it goes. (My family has a long history with the Watchtower Society, some going back to Russell's time. Since my great-grandfather was on the convention speaking tours with Russell and Rutherford, you can still buy his picture on eBay along with several of the other associates of Russell. In fact, some original items were even given over to the Society for exhibits.)
    I thought about this again because I'm reading a very thorough historical book on Russell titled "A Separate Identity, Volume 2" by B.W.Schulz and R.M.de Vienne. In fact, I've got nothing to share that can compare with the page after page of information about Russell from that book. So much of it is completely new to me and even a bit surprising. I wish I had been following the blog run by the author, too, because I notice that when I went back for something I had bookmarked to read, it wasn't there any more. I'll try to promote the book again here. I think people here will enjoy it.
    https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/87187-just-read-a-good-portion-of-b-w-schulz-new-book-separate-identity-volume-2/?tab=comments#comment-144581
    So if you came here for some of the trivia that I was going to share, sorry. I don't have anything to compare.
    Well, I can share one thing that few people know. But I have never looked into it that closely myself. Much (most?) of the land that the Watchtower Farm owns in Wallkill used to belong to my relatives. I shared a fact before that Brother Booth (GB) once owned the farmland where they built the original Gilead School in Lansing. But the Wallkill story is of interest to me because there's a plaque up there in Wallkill associated with an old Huguenot related church with one of my relative's names on it. (Crispell)
    I think it's now part of the Reformed Church of Shawangunk which borders on the North side of the Watchtower property there, within eyesight of the Kingdom Hall at Bruynswick Rd and Red Mill Rd. (They are across from each other, on separate sides of the Wallkill River.) I don't know if they still do it, but it was once the Watchtower's responsibility to care for a part of the historical church's property, including the plaque.
    Of course all this is meaningless as it relates to the Watchtower itself, but it's part of a story about the movement of religion in the earlier part of the 1800's in the United States. These earlier relatives of mine were the first people to bring the French Huguenot religion up to New York (from around Charleston, South Carolina). There are still a couple of Crispell cousins in Wallkill, and even a Crispell School there, however, many of the Crispell family settled on the Wallkill River where the settlement was called New Paltz. I might have mentioned once before that an elderly woman at the Historical Society in New Paltz once dug an old family Bible out of a vault for me that had Dutch relatives listed, going back to the 1600s. (The French and the German and the Dutch began intermarrying in the 1800's here in this area.)
     
  14. Haha
    JW Insider got a reaction from César Chávez in Furuli's new e-book: "My Beloved Religion - And The Governing Body"   
    Yes. I am aware. I'm just surprised, especially after reading and studying and discussing his last two books. I am aware of your stated position about them.
    I doubt that his views on chronology are firm. He gives plenty of evidence that he does not really believe they are firm. They are definitely not "established" in the least, except as weak theories he could never honestly defend. About all he ever established is that he was "clever" but incapable of dealing with the necessary issues related to chronology. Even amateurs like myself have had no trouble seeing through the scheme.
    😊
    Interesting. Perhaps he is in the process of sacrificing his association with Witnesses so that he will be the first non-Witness scholar in history to claim that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BCE.
    I have another theory as to what he is doing, much less interesting, but in total keeping with the evidence he has already documented about his ego, personality and track record. I'll see if it makes sense after reading his book (tomorrow).
  15. Thanks
    JW Insider got a reaction from Arauna in Furuli's new e-book: "My Beloved Religion - And The Governing Body"   
    It's just a working hypothesis based on things I've seen from him, including a personal conversation. I am reading the book now, and won't finish until tomorrow. If the hypothesis is not evidenced I will either drop it, or discuss why it wasn't evidenced. But I'm OK discussing his book no matter what his reasons..
    He sent me his last two books for free, but I must not be on his mailing list any more, because I had to get this one myself.
  16. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Arauna in Some Watchtower trivia you might not see anywhere else   
    Read the piece. Loved the connection between the Dutch and French (as happened in South Africa. ) Recognised all the Dutch and French names  - except Crispell. Where is this name from?
    Afrikaans language is a form of old Dutch..... so I understand all related languages (Belgium, Flemish etc) but we have an unique double negative in the language which came from the French.
    In the early stages of the colony the French Huguenots were not as many as the Dutch but a substantial group. It was a Dutch colony and speaking French in the churches was prohibited-  so the religious French protestants had to learn and use Dutch.  They automatically used the double negative and it stuck in the "Afrikaans" /Dutch language permanently.
    Agreed.... many wars in Europe and bloody "purges' of religious groups took place all over Europe and England. The Inquisition started with Jews but soon escalated to the searching out of Christian heretics. A cruel depraved part of history.... 
  17. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Arauna in Some Watchtower trivia you might not see anywhere else   
    My last name is not Crispell, but one of my living uncles still has the middle name of Crispell. Their story is partly told at the link below. I don't really know how many of these stories are true. Some of the family is currently back in Charleston and they say that the move from originally from Charleston to Walkill/Kingston/NewPaltz. But some stories have them coming over directly to New York. I never bothered to trace whether both versions were true for different parts of the family.
    https://www.huguenotstreet.org/crispell
    Thanks for telling parts of your story. This kind of history is interesting. A lot of people don't know just how seriously the Catholic/Protestant divide has affected history over the last 500 years. It's no wonder that so many of the prophecies in Revelation were originally seen in those terms.
  18. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Thinking in ....and like Forest Gump said "... and that's all I am going to say about that."   
    Yes I knew where he got that from and the point wasn’t missed...too sad...and I hope I’m wrong....dam ..I hope I’m wrong...
  19. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to The Librarian in Furuli's new e-book: "My Beloved Religion - And The Governing Body"   
    I wonder if he just copied Fred Franz' viewpoint?
    See also
     
  20. Thanks
    JW Insider got a reaction from Witness in ....and like Forest Gump said "... and that's all I am going to say about that."   
    Just in case anyone wasn't aware, a few of JTR's recent posts had moved in this same direction, and I thought I'd share the entire song from which JTR referenced a couple of the lyrics. It struck me as too sad to respond immediately. Although I would not think it enough to draw any conclusions:
      "Seasons In The Sun"
    (originally by Jacques Brel)
    Terry Jacks (performer)
    Goodbye to you my trusted friend
    We've known each other since we were nine or ten
    Together we've climbed hills and trees
    Learned of love and ABCs
    Skinned our hearts and skinned our knees

    Goodbye my friend, it's hard to die
    When all the birds are singing in the sky
    Now that the spring is in the air
    Pretty girls are everywhere
    Think of me and I'll be there

    We had joy, we had fun
    We had seasons in the sun
    But the hills that we climbed
    Were just seasons out of time

    Goodbye papa, please pray for me
    I was the black sheep of the family
    You tried to teach me right from wrong
    Too much wine and too much song
    Wonder how I got along

    Goodbye papa, it's hard to die
    When all the birds are singing in the sky
    Now that the spring is in the air
    Little children everywhere
    When you see them, I'll be there

    We had joy, we had fun
    We had seasons in the sun
    But the wine and the song
    Like the seasons, have all gone

    We had joy, we had fun
    We had seasons in the sun
    But the wine and the song
    Like the seasons, have all gone

    Goodbye Michelle, my little one
    You gave me love and helped me find the sun
    And every time that I was down
    You would always come around
    And get my feet back on the ground

    Goodbye Michelle, it's hard to die
    When all the birds are singing in the sky
    Now that the spring is in the air
    With the flowers everywhere
    I wish that we could both be there

    We had joy, we had fun
    We had seasons in the sun
    But the stars we could reach
    Were just starfish on the beach

    We had joy, we had fun
    We had seasons in the sun
    But the stars we could reach
    Were just starfish on the beach

    We had joy, we had fun
    We had seasons in the sun
    But the wine and the song
    Like the seasons, have all gone

    All our lives we had fun
    We had seasons in the sun
    But the hills that we climbed
    Were just seasons out of time

    We had joy, we had fun
    We had seasons in the sun  
  21. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Arauna in Some Watchtower trivia you might not see anywhere else   
    My maiden name was De Villiers.  My forefathers were also  of Huguenot stock that went to South Africa in the 17th century and started the wine industry. There is a famous farm in Cape area called La Rochelle which was named after the area in France my forefathers came from.
    They fled to Holland when the Edict of Nantes was made void and persecution came overnight. They then went on to settle in the Cape. I have a book with my family history in south Africa....the genealogy was updated after my children were born.
    What I find interesting is that Huguenots were also in the area you come from.... and your family were part of these persecuted protestants way back then.
    I visited a fort built around 1650s in Florida USA. It was built by the Spanish when they had control of Florida.  It looked similar to the fort in south Africa built at the same time for sea defence.
    I felt sad when I learnt there at this fort that a group of Huguenots which landed in Florida were massacred there by the Spanish.  
    Seems like your family (I do not know the last name) fared better in the north of USA.
    My family Crest has the lamb and fleur-de-lis symbols which indicate that they also participated in the crusades..... but I did not care to investigate this - not important.
    What is interesting about your family history: it goes back to time of Russel.
    Do share some more interesting titbits
     
  22. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from ComfortMyPeople in Some Watchtower trivia you might not see anywhere else   
    When I first came to this site I chose the name "The Bible's Advocate" to discuss some doctrinal issues. But I never used it. I "temporarily" chose the name "JW Insider" because I also wanted to share a couple dozen trivia items that I figured no one else would be sharing. But I never got around to sharing the trivia items. By now, I'm stuck with "JW Insider" although I don't really like the name. And I also decided that the trivia items were . . . well . . .  too trivial to worry about.
    But I figured I might start sharing a few more things and see how it goes. (My family has a long history with the Watchtower Society, some going back to Russell's time. Since my great-grandfather was on the convention speaking tours with Russell and Rutherford, you can still buy his picture on eBay along with several of the other associates of Russell. In fact, some original items were even given over to the Society for exhibits.)
    I thought about this again because I'm reading a very thorough historical book on Russell titled "A Separate Identity, Volume 2" by B.W.Schulz and R.M.de Vienne. In fact, I've got nothing to share that can compare with the page after page of information about Russell from that book. So much of it is completely new to me and even a bit surprising. I wish I had been following the blog run by the author, too, because I notice that when I went back for something I had bookmarked to read, it wasn't there any more. I'll try to promote the book again here. I think people here will enjoy it.
    https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/87187-just-read-a-good-portion-of-b-w-schulz-new-book-separate-identity-volume-2/?tab=comments#comment-144581
    So if you came here for some of the trivia that I was going to share, sorry. I don't have anything to compare.
    Well, I can share one thing that few people know. But I have never looked into it that closely myself. Much (most?) of the land that the Watchtower Farm owns in Wallkill used to belong to my relatives. I shared a fact before that Brother Booth (GB) once owned the farmland where they built the original Gilead School in Lansing. But the Wallkill story is of interest to me because there's a plaque up there in Wallkill associated with an old Huguenot related church with one of my relative's names on it. (Crispell)
    I think it's now part of the Reformed Church of Shawangunk which borders on the North side of the Watchtower property there, within eyesight of the Kingdom Hall at Bruynswick Rd and Red Mill Rd. (They are across from each other, on separate sides of the Wallkill River.) I don't know if they still do it, but it was once the Watchtower's responsibility to care for a part of the historical church's property, including the plaque.
    Of course all this is meaningless as it relates to the Watchtower itself, but it's part of a story about the movement of religion in the earlier part of the 1800's in the United States. These earlier relatives of mine were the first people to bring the French Huguenot religion up to New York (from around Charleston, South Carolina). There are still a couple of Crispell cousins in Wallkill, and even a Crispell School there, however, many of the Crispell family settled on the Wallkill River where the settlement was called New Paltz. I might have mentioned once before that an elderly woman at the Historical Society in New Paltz once dug an old family Bible out of a vault for me that had Dutch relatives listed, going back to the 1600s. (The French and the German and the Dutch began intermarrying in the 1800's here in this area.)
     
  23. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Arauna in Some Watchtower trivia you might not see anywhere else   
    When I first came to this site I chose the name "The Bible's Advocate" to discuss some doctrinal issues. But I never used it. I "temporarily" chose the name "JW Insider" because I also wanted to share a couple dozen trivia items that I figured no one else would be sharing. But I never got around to sharing the trivia items. By now, I'm stuck with "JW Insider" although I don't really like the name. And I also decided that the trivia items were . . . well . . .  too trivial to worry about.
    But I figured I might start sharing a few more things and see how it goes. (My family has a long history with the Watchtower Society, some going back to Russell's time. Since my great-grandfather was on the convention speaking tours with Russell and Rutherford, you can still buy his picture on eBay along with several of the other associates of Russell. In fact, some original items were even given over to the Society for exhibits.)
    I thought about this again because I'm reading a very thorough historical book on Russell titled "A Separate Identity, Volume 2" by B.W.Schulz and R.M.de Vienne. In fact, I've got nothing to share that can compare with the page after page of information about Russell from that book. So much of it is completely new to me and even a bit surprising. I wish I had been following the blog run by the author, too, because I notice that when I went back for something I had bookmarked to read, it wasn't there any more. I'll try to promote the book again here. I think people here will enjoy it.
    https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/87187-just-read-a-good-portion-of-b-w-schulz-new-book-separate-identity-volume-2/?tab=comments#comment-144581
    So if you came here for some of the trivia that I was going to share, sorry. I don't have anything to compare.
    Well, I can share one thing that few people know. But I have never looked into it that closely myself. Much (most?) of the land that the Watchtower Farm owns in Wallkill used to belong to my relatives. I shared a fact before that Brother Booth (GB) once owned the farmland where they built the original Gilead School in Lansing. But the Wallkill story is of interest to me because there's a plaque up there in Wallkill associated with an old Huguenot related church with one of my relative's names on it. (Crispell)
    I think it's now part of the Reformed Church of Shawangunk which borders on the North side of the Watchtower property there, within eyesight of the Kingdom Hall at Bruynswick Rd and Red Mill Rd. (They are across from each other, on separate sides of the Wallkill River.) I don't know if they still do it, but it was once the Watchtower's responsibility to care for a part of the historical church's property, including the plaque.
    Of course all this is meaningless as it relates to the Watchtower itself, but it's part of a story about the movement of religion in the earlier part of the 1800's in the United States. These earlier relatives of mine were the first people to bring the French Huguenot religion up to New York (from around Charleston, South Carolina). There are still a couple of Crispell cousins in Wallkill, and even a Crispell School there, however, many of the Crispell family settled on the Wallkill River where the settlement was called New Paltz. I might have mentioned once before that an elderly woman at the Historical Society in New Paltz once dug an old family Bible out of a vault for me that had Dutch relatives listed, going back to the 1600s. (The French and the German and the Dutch began intermarrying in the 1800's here in this area.)
     
  24. Thanks
    JW Insider got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in ....and like Forest Gump said "... and that's all I am going to say about that."   
    Just in case anyone wasn't aware, a few of JTR's recent posts had moved in this same direction, and I thought I'd share the entire song from which JTR referenced a couple of the lyrics. It struck me as too sad to respond immediately. Although I would not think it enough to draw any conclusions:
      "Seasons In The Sun"
    (originally by Jacques Brel)
    Terry Jacks (performer)
    Goodbye to you my trusted friend
    We've known each other since we were nine or ten
    Together we've climbed hills and trees
    Learned of love and ABCs
    Skinned our hearts and skinned our knees

    Goodbye my friend, it's hard to die
    When all the birds are singing in the sky
    Now that the spring is in the air
    Pretty girls are everywhere
    Think of me and I'll be there

    We had joy, we had fun
    We had seasons in the sun
    But the hills that we climbed
    Were just seasons out of time

    Goodbye papa, please pray for me
    I was the black sheep of the family
    You tried to teach me right from wrong
    Too much wine and too much song
    Wonder how I got along

    Goodbye papa, it's hard to die
    When all the birds are singing in the sky
    Now that the spring is in the air
    Little children everywhere
    When you see them, I'll be there

    We had joy, we had fun
    We had seasons in the sun
    But the wine and the song
    Like the seasons, have all gone

    We had joy, we had fun
    We had seasons in the sun
    But the wine and the song
    Like the seasons, have all gone

    Goodbye Michelle, my little one
    You gave me love and helped me find the sun
    And every time that I was down
    You would always come around
    And get my feet back on the ground

    Goodbye Michelle, it's hard to die
    When all the birds are singing in the sky
    Now that the spring is in the air
    With the flowers everywhere
    I wish that we could both be there

    We had joy, we had fun
    We had seasons in the sun
    But the stars we could reach
    Were just starfish on the beach

    We had joy, we had fun
    We had seasons in the sun
    But the stars we could reach
    Were just starfish on the beach

    We had joy, we had fun
    We had seasons in the sun
    But the wine and the song
    Like the seasons, have all gone

    All our lives we had fun
    We had seasons in the sun
    But the hills that we climbed
    Were just seasons out of time

    We had joy, we had fun
    We had seasons in the sun  
  25. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to TrueTomHarley in ....and like Forest Gump said "... and that's all I am going to say about that."   
    Maybe I have a thing for sappy endings, but I like to think it is one of those things where If you seek Jehovah, even if you have gone off track, seek righteousness, and seek meekness, then probably it will turn out just fine in the end.
    I trust it will work out that way and I count it a good thing, even if a temporary loss here.
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