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JW Insider got a reaction from James Thomas Rook Jr. in 1914
It was my opinion, too, that Matthew6699 (or something like that) did not try to add any value to any conversation. I thought he was here just to be as disagreeable as he wanted to be. The dozens of incarnations of Allen, on the other hand, have very often been useful and thoughtful and almost always provocative. There are times when I'd rather see a long response from those "Allen" accounts than, let's say, a Dilbert cartoon. And I really, really like Dilbert cartoons. đ (See, I can be provocative too!)
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JW Insider got a reaction from James Thomas Rook Jr. in 1914
Your observation was, and I quote:
If you can't see how you just insulted everyone here, then I don't think there would ever be enough evidence in the world to convince you. And, by the way, I have never banned anyone, nor have I asked for anyone to be banned. If you already know this, then you are being dishonest. If you don't already know this, then I don't think there would ever be enough evidence in the world to convince you of this either.
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JW Insider got a reaction from Anna in 1914
Your observation was, and I quote:
If you can't see how you just insulted everyone here, then I don't think there would ever be enough evidence in the world to convince you. And, by the way, I have never banned anyone, nor have I asked for anyone to be banned. If you already know this, then you are being dishonest. If you don't already know this, then I don't think there would ever be enough evidence in the world to convince you of this either.
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JW Insider got a reaction from Patiently waiting for Truth in 1914
You might have no idea, but I do. All you have to do is ask. There should be no reason to merely throw around insults but then not be willing to answer questions. That's just an old "Allen Smith" tactic. If you had asked why I believed the Bible verses that @4Jah2me referenced, it was because you asked a simple question requoted here.
I think last person to see Jesus in spirit form might well have been Paul, but Paul implies that at least a portion of this encounter with Jesus in spirit form may have been in a vision, or he may have been temporarily blinded, or perhaps even in a subsequent vision, whether in the body or out of the body he wasn't sure. There were others with Paul on the road to Damascus for which it is also unclear just what was seen.
So I think it's reasonable to assume that persons who saw Jesus while he was in spirit form would have seen Jesus while he had materialized a body of flesh and bone. This included most of the apostles and several of the disciples and, according to Paul, upwards of 500 or more. (Assumed to be after his resurrection but prior to his ascension.)
So I up-voted the 1 Cor 15:6 reference. I up-voted it because it's the same scripture I would have responded with.
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JW Insider reacted to TrueTomHarley in Did Jehovahâs Witnesses Lie to the Montana Court About Confidentiality?
Not to be unkind, 4Jah, but you do burn out rather quickly. It would be nice if you did more than just search for bullet points for you ammo case.
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JW Insider reacted to TrueTomHarley in Did Jehovahâs Witnesses Lie to the Montana Court About Confidentiality?
Here is the way to look at events in Montana: I wrote it up this morning and posted on my blog. Reproduced here:
After the multi-million dollar verdict against Jehovahâs Witnesses in Montana was reversed, I visited the Witness-bashing website to see how they were taking it. They were not happy. However, the ones who knew law were analytical.
âThis isnât the fault of the courts,â one said. âItâs the fault of the Montana law as written. Courts must follow law or risk reversal on appeal. This case was never going to be ultimately won. The law was way too clear on the matter.â
Another: âMontana followed the law. Itâs that simple and of course Watchtower followed the law...â
Yet another: âThe case never should have been started, as the law clearly backed JWâs actions. It never had a chance of surviving appeal.â
They sure didnât talk that way after the first trial. Some of their cohorts wanted to rub my noseâline by lineâthrough that first transcript. âThe court found your people guilty, TrueTom! Why would they do that unless they had broke the lawâthey who say they adhere to the law!â I didnât respond because I am not a lawyer that would try to unravel their affairs. Moreover, courts, while they may represent the best human justice available, are clearly not above bias from pre-existing philosophical leaningsâif they were confirming a Supreme Court Justice would take ten minutes. âWait until the fat lady sings,â was my attitude. When she did, it was to throw out the judgement of the skinny lady.
Not all were so retrospective after that reversal. âF**k the Montana Supreme Court!â was the outraged complaint woven throughout the thread, with some accusing those seven justices (the reversal was 7-0) of being enablers themselves! Child sexual abuse is the most white-hot topic of all and calm heads rarely prevail. One of them muttered at how they must be âcelebrating this victoryâ at Watchtower HQ. But they showed no sign of it. The Witness attorney summed up events: âThere are no winners in a case involving child abuse. âNo child should ever be subjected to such a debased crime....Tragically, it happens, and when it does Jehovah's Witnesses follow the law. This is what the Montana Supreme Court has established.ââ Obviously if one is on the hook for several million dollars and then no longer is, they will not mourn over it. But the focus was kept on the victim, as it should have been. Ideally, she gets full justice from the perpetrator directly responsible.
The gold standard in matters of child sexual abuse is to âgo beyond the law.â It is a crazy expectation and I can think of no parallels to it. The expectation is found in a remark already presented, but in truncated form. The full remark was: âMontana followed the law. Itâs that simple and of course Watchtower followed the law, rather than just simply reporting child abuse like a good Christian organization.â
If the gold standard regarding child abuse is to âgo beyond the lawâ then MAKE that the law! Thatâs what law is for! Three times before the ARC Geoffrey Jackson pleaded for such a changeâit would make his job âso much easier.â âGoing beyond the lawâ is surely to trigger the wrath of those who, not unreasonably, expect you to abide by the law! Change the law and everyone is happy.
As though on cue, a report surfaced regarding another faith. An Oregon woman has filed a lawsuit for $9 million against the Mormon church because they DID report a confidentially disclosed sexual abuse of a minor. âClergy are not required to report known or suspected child abuse if the knowledge results from a congregation member's confidential communication or confession and if the person making the statement does not consent to disclosure," Justice Beth Baker wrote in the Montana Supreme Court opinion. It is a statement that will clearly help the Oregon woman, but would not if it were not the law. Change the law if you are really serious about nabbing pedophiles.
The way everything unfolded in Montana pretty well accords with my initial assessment. So great is the worldâs frustration at not being able to make a dent in the child sexual abuse pandemic that the first court chose to ignore law in pursuit of that end. It might well be combined with some religious bias, but I would not hang my hat on the latterâoutrage over child sexual abuse is sufficient in itself. The Witness organization did follow law, as the Supreme Count validated, but the first court reinterpreted law and made it retroactive to make it seem that they did not. I wrote about it here:
Change the law! Why cannot that be done? If Watchtower wants to change a policy, they can do it overnight and have it implemented worldwide within the week. It is the basket-case eternally squabbling, turf-guarding, plethora of competing jurisdictions that cause many Witnesses to become Witnesses in the first placeâthey see how hopeless it is with human governments.
Ones who want to bring the Watchtower down on the pretext of child sexual abuse, such as those who predominate at the Witness bashing site, are hardly out of bullets, but they are continually frustrated. Their efforts to put Witness stories above all others gains little traction because the pattern elsewhere is that the leaders of organizations, religious or otherwise, are the abusers themselves, something rarely true with the Witness organization, and also that child sexual abuse appears to be the primary export of the planet, crowding out stories of âlesserâ significance. With Watchtower (as in Montana) the situation is typically that of abuse within a family or step-family and Witness leaders come under the gun for evoking law and not reporting it, leaving that up to the persons involvedâsometimes they do but often they donât. History may well judge that harshly, but it does not hold a candle to leaders actually committing the abuse themselves. The class action suit in Quebec that I wrote about was similarly dismissed. Moreover, that contributing perceptionâthat it is a disgrace to call attention to child sexual abuseâhas been firmly put to rest among Witnesses.
The Epstein joke making the rounds is: âIf you were surprised at Jeff Epstein committing suicide, just think how surprised he must have been!â Of course. With prison security protocol breaking down âat every levelâ and with 60 Minutes concluding that his injuries far suggest homicide over suicide, the conclusion that he was put to sleep by powerful interests to protect other pedophiles will never be squashed. People are naive, but not that naive.Â
A DisneyLand executive was recently sentenced for pedophile offenses, and Erin Elizabeth of HealthNutNews, who has lived in the area, says it happens all the time. The point is, there is no place where child sexual abuse is not, but participants on the anti-JW site see it in only one placeâa place where its intensity pales next to places where leaders are the abusers, not just ones trying to stem it who may have done so clumsily.
Thirty years into all-out war against child sexual abuse and barely a dent has been made! For my money, the JW organization is the most proactive of all, gathering every single member on earth to consider detailed scenarios in which child abuse might happenâif there are sleepovers, if there are tickling sessions, if there are unsupervised trips to the rest room, if someone, even a relative, shows unusual interest in your child, and so forthâso that parents, the obvious first line of defense, can be on the alert. This was done at the 2017 Regional Conventions, which were held globally.
It is the common and accepted legal practice to go as high up on the food chain as possible with regard to any lawsuitâeveryone knows this and judges it an unremarkable fact of life. âKnew or should have knownâ is the legal expression that carries the day and effectively amounts to a tax on the common person. Governments raise taxes. Businesses raise prices. When I hear that my neighborâs lawyer secured him millions of dollars for his auto accident, I rejoice with himâthen I open my insurance premium bill.
As people become ever more debased, just where does this end? Women on airlines are reporting sexual abuse. Even rape has been reported, and with passengers being packed in like sardines, attendants expected to monitor this are caught dumbfounded. Do they âknow or should have known?â In an increasingly depraved world, your guess is as good as mine.
As to sentiment on the Witness-bashing website? Look, whenever one discards a scenario in which there is discipline for one in which there is not, it will be like releasing a compressed springâit rebounds wildly, delirious with its newfound freedom, caring not where it goes. This will be true when one leaves behind the school, the military, or the job. It will especially be true if one quit or was expelled from that institutionâand that is the case of most on the anti-JW site. Many of them have come out as gay. Witnesses may not gay-bash as do some evangelicals, some of whom froth on the subject and tirelessly prod legislators to make it hot for gays in general societyâWitnesses donât do thatâstill, there is no place for gay relations within the Witness organizationâand that hardly endears them to former members who have gone that way. There is a plain backdrop of âsettling the scoreâ to be detected in many posts. It is anything but easy to hold the line on Bible morality in a quickly changing world.
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JW Insider reacted to Patiently waiting for Truth in 1914
I think there is a scripture that says Jesus was seen by up to 500 people.Â
1 Corinthians 15 v 6.Â
New International Version
After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.
New King James Version
After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.
We know that Jesus 'took on human form' when he was resurrected, so as to 'prove' his resurrection. We have the account of Thomas too. But we know that Jesus was resurrected as a spirit and merely 'used' human form to show himself to humans.Â
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JW Insider got a reaction from James Thomas Rook Jr. in JW USA: A Witness responds to Lloyd Evans about JW and global climate change
@Srecko Sostar, I think that was Brother Lett doing his own version of Saturday Night Live's Church Lady:
"Could it be SAAAAAAAAATAAN?!?!?!?!?"
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JW Insider reacted to Anna in 1914
You've been reading too much false information. Russell started the ball rolling but then he and his associates died. But it didn't end there, that is why I said that since then, some scriptures became clearer, and understood better. Knowledge is progressive as I am sure you will agree. It was during Rutherford's time that the Great crowd was identified. Until then it was thought all were going to heaven. When the scripture concerning the great crowd came to be understood, it brought a lot of joy to those who realised they were of the great crowd, because their desire was to live on earth. Everyone at that time had the opportunity for the first time to realise who they were. It must have been thrilling to say the least!
I am in no way saying Russell, Rutherford, or anyone after him didn't make mistakes or immediately got everything right. But I think that has always been your stumbling block. Your insistence that there must be NO mistakes and NO fault, despite knowing that all humans, including the anointed are imperfect, and that all those inspired and God fearing men in Bible times (Hebrew and Greek scriptures) made mistakes, some quite major ones. And still, God used them although he had to discipline them. Those who Jehovah loves he disciplines. If those who Jehovah loves didn't make mistakes, there would be no need for Jehovah to discipline them, would there?
The discipline from Jehovah is ongoing. Perhaps one of these reprimands have been regarding the CSA issue? Although as you know, this problem is complex and no one solution fits all. (You yourself were not sure how to proceed regarding one situation. You were worried about slander and concerns whether reporting to the Police was justified and the right thing to do. You were asking for opinion on here. You said it was because you did not have all the information. Well put yourself in the elders shoes. They do not always have all the information. Just like you, they are worried about barking up the wrong tree.) There have been recent and important clarifications regarding the reporting and handling of CSA. The biggest one is that ALL members of the congregation have been made aware of how to proceed, not just elders like in the past. Everyone can be on the same page now. That is a big improvement and a step forward. In my opinion it was discipline from Jehovah. I will address the other issues you mentioned in another post later....
No, of course I am not saying that. I said that now, the congregations are mostly made up of the earthly class, but that does not mean that the body of Christ (the anointed) has been disturbed, or has no significance just because most congregations have no anointed in them at all.
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JW Insider got a reaction from Anna in WT: The most important thing for Jehovah is to sanctify himself.
I don't think that we need to worry about the difference in priorities of various aspects of Jehovah's purpose. His thoughts are higher than ours, and it's not up to us to try to prioritize specific things that were not already prioritized for us in the Bible. In fact, all the items listed below are tied together so that we cannot really separate, for example, his sanctification from the well-being of good angels and good people (and "all creation").
Jehovah's eternal purpose the outworking of His purpose by the Kingdom throughout mankind's history the vindication of His sovereignty the sanctification of Jehovah's name, reputation, righteousness, purpose the explanation for sin, suffering and death in this system the meaning and purpose of the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ the question of motivation for our Christian activities (works); whether reward (hope) or faith and love the central theme of love for both God and neighbor Each of these is tied together. Sometimes, for example. we (JWs) have concerned ourselves over the priority of Jehovah's vindication or his sovereignty. But when we look at the things that the Bible is concerned with prioritizing, these are not included. Paul prioritized "love" over faith and hope. Jesus prioritized love of God and neighbor over all other commandments in the law. Jesus prioritized mercy over sacrifice.
The entire book of Romans, especially, ties all these together, and just a few examples will remind us of how Paul touched on almost every subject in the list above
(Romans 8:18-25) 18 For I consider that the sufferings of the present time do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us. 19 For the creation is waiting with eager expectation for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. 23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom. 24 For we were saved in this hope; but hope that is seen is not hope, for when a man sees a thing, does he hope for it? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we keep eagerly waiting for it with endurance.
(Romans 5:1-15) . . .Therefore, now that we have been declared righteous as a result of faith, let us enjoy peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we also have obtained access by faith into this undeserved kindness in which we now stand; and let us rejoice, based on hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only that, but let us rejoice while in tribulations, since we know that tribulation produces endurance; 4 endurance, in turn, an approved condition; the approved condition, in turn, hope, 5 and the hope does not lead to disappointment; because the love of God has been poured out into our hearts through the holy spirit, which was given to us. 6 For, indeed, while we were still weak, Christ died for ungodly men at the appointed time. 7 For hardly would anyone die for a righteous man; though perhaps for a good man someone may dare to die. 8 But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. . . . 12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinnedâ. 13 For sin was in the world before the Law, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the same way that Adam transgressed, who bears a resemblance to the one who was to come. 15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if by one manâs trespass many died, how much more did the undeserved kindness of God and his free gift by the undeserved kindness of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to many!
Just a quick aside, but was this verse [Romans 5:13] ever used in support of the idea that the Watchtower had taught about persons destroyed at Sodom, for example, when we said that they would still have a chance for a resurrection?
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JW Insider reacted to Anna in 1914
You make it sound like fundamental teachings have changed. I wonder what would cause someone to actually say âthis is not what I have signed up forâ. Maybe you have a few ideas?
I think you are missing the whole point of the Christian congregation. Letâs say that today all the anointed communicated with each other, and each brought something to the table, and each agreed or disagreed on something, which teaching or thought would they decide to stick to? Well, I hate to tell you, but youâve missed the bus by nearly 2000 years. Itâs already been done with the apostles. Itâs already all there in writing, in the scriptures for all to see. When the first Bible students got together under Russell, all they did was peel away years of false teachings of Christendom and exposed the grass roots of the Truth.There has really been nothing much new since then, only some views became clearer, and a few were seen as unnecessarily complicated (such as types and antitypes) and were removed altogether .
Paul said about the anointed in Ephesians 4:11 âAnd he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers, 12  with a view to the readjustment of the holy ones, for ministerial work, to build up the body of the Christ, until we all attain to the oneness of the faith and of the accurate knowledge of the Son of God, to being a full-grown man, attaining the measure of stature that belongs to the fullness of the Christâ.
Paul shows that some anointed were readjusted (trained) by the other anointed, so that ALL of them together  would attain to the oneness of the faith and accurate knowledge. So it looks like not all the anointed were given equal tasks. Some were shepherds and teachers of the other anointed, some evidently not. But as an end result, they were all united.
That was the whole point of the Christian congregation, which in those days must have represented the body of Christ because it was composed exclusively of the anointed. Today, the congregation, or body of Christ, remains undisturbed, as Jesus is still their head and the head of the congregation. But it will not be made whole until all the anointed are in heaven with Christ. With the dwindling numbers of anointed, these congregations have been filled with those who are not members of the body of Christ, but there is unity, and it is still Christâs congregation. Â But somehow, you, and @Witness, imply that it is necessary that there should be a segregation of those who are anointed, and those who are not anointed. I cannot find that idea anywhere in the scripture.
So, what do you think your âtrue anointedâ would bring to the table today that hasnât already been established by Jesus, and recorded by those who wrote the Christian Greek scriptures? Â I am sure you must have something in mind. Something that would help all of Jehovahâs Witnesses today. Â What is it?
Was in the Jan 2016 WT, but here is the latest, Jan 2020 basically saying the same thing in par 7, as the 2016 WT
https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/watchtower-study-january-2020/we-will-go-with-you/
It is not saying anointed ones cannot communicate with each other. It is saying that they wouldn't want to separate themselves from the rest of the congregation.
I am not concerned about it because the true anointed have no need to seek each other in that way. From what I have seen they enjoy the fellowship and mutual encouragement of brothers and sisters of the earthly class while still on earth, and they look forward to being united physically with Christ and the other anointed when they are finally in heaven.Â
Â
P.S. I need to comment on something you mentioned in one of your previous posts. You said: Â "The Anointed are not the same as the Earthly Class. The sooner people get this through their heads the better for everyone. The Anointed are the BODY OF CHRIST. Do you not understand that God has a special use for them even now. Otherwise God could anoint a person when they were on their deathbed".
The problem with that is that the anointed do not fully become the body of Christ until they are in heaven. While on earth they have that hope. But they are still sinful just like the earthly class. Although they have been given the invitation to heaven, their being anointed is no guarantee that they will be there. They will only be there if they have endured faithful to the end. So yes, their final sealing happens when they are on their deathbed. (........ prove yourself faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life". Rev 2:10). Some who were anointed in Paul's day fell away, the same can happen today. Paul, when he knew his death was imminent was able to say: "I have fought the fine fight, I have run the race to the finish, I have observed the faith. From this time on, there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day"Â
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JW Insider got a reaction from Anna in 1914
The question was basically about whether a person should do their own research but then just keep quiet about it if they proved to themselves something different than they had accepted at baptism. I thought your answer was excellent.
Those of us who remain in the organization after researching the teachings on 1914 are remaining because this doctrine, even if completely wrong, does not negate the good work the organization is doing for the world in focusing on both the current and future benefits of God's kingdom, taking a stand on God's side, and offering the opportunity to join in with others who also want to share that message with the whole world. Were Peter, James and John still being used in the congregations around Jerusalem and Judea, even though they still had long-standing prejudices and misunderstandings about God's purpose for the Gentiles? (Acts 15 & 21; Gal 1 & 2) Of course they were!
Did teachings coming from those same men stumble others? (Galatians, Barnabas, etc.) According to Paul, people were definitely stumbled by the influence these brothers, but Paul continued to work with them and cooperate with them. Our decision to continue working with the Witnesses should also still make sense if we believe there is no other group that teaches what we believe about various Bible teachings that are important to us (neutrality, conscientious objection two war, teachings about morality/Trinity/hell/soul, etc.).
Also, there are those who might think that it is hypocritical to find something wrong in our personal research and then merely keep quiet about it. I'd say that we would be wrong to bring it up in the context of our congregations. This might cause divisions, and might influence people to choose a side based on "human factors" (who debates the best, who "sounds" more loyal, who "sounds" more intelligent, who has more human authority, the number of people who agree or disagree, etc., etc.)
But, if we recall Matthew 18, the most important thing is to go to the source of the issue. It's not the people in our congregation, or even the elders in our congregation. They are not the source of this teaching. In this case we should go to the brothers who are the publishers and promoters of this teaching, to see what they say in defense of the teaching. As you say, we may not be satisfied, or find that they don't answer, or won't answer, or can't answer. Then we can make up our mind how we might still try to absolve our own conscience on the matter, or make a defense of our own faith on the matter. But we still need NOT go to our local congregation about it, or try to find persons there who will side with us. This will still create unnecessary contentions. It will make it appear that it is a matter of personal ego to be right or prove others wrong. If it were a matter of life and death, this might be different.
If this is the same argument that John Butler often made, then the point is that the context is only about the Hebrew Scriptures, not the Christian Greek Scriptures, much of which had not been written yet. This is already mentioned however in our own publications:
*** ws17 December p. 16 ParentsâHelp Your Children Become âWise for Salvationâ ***
âYOU HAVE KNOWN THE HOLY WRITINGSâ
3 The apostle Paul first visited Lystra in the year 47. This is probably when Timothy, who may have been a teenager, learned about Jesusâ teachings. He applied what he learned, and two years later he began traveling with Paul. About 16 years after that, Paul wrote to Timothy: âContinue in the things that you learned and were persuaded to believe, knowing from whom you learned them and that from infancy you have known the holy writings [the Hebrew Scriptures], which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.â (2 Timothy 3:14, 15) Notice that Paul said that Timothy (1) knew the holy writings, (2) was persuaded to believe the things he learned, and (3) became wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. . . . Timothy knew the Hebrew Scriptures âfrom infancy,â that is, from the time he was very young
The addition of the term "[the Hebrew Scriptures]" is in the original quotation, even though it was put in brackets. However, the Watchtower's emphasis has always been on the fact that since most of these additional book by apostles and other mature men had already been written that the reference is to all the books both OT and NT.
*** w63 11/1 pp. 652-653 pars. 14-15 The Book of âEverlasting Good Newsâ is Beneficial ***
Consequently, when Paul wrote his final letter to Timothy and said: âAll Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial,â there were doubtless twenty-one inspired books, all addressed to Christians, in addition to the thirty-nine books of the Hebrew Scriptures. (2Â Tim. 3:16) Today Paulâs expression âAll Scripture is inspired of Godâ includes the writings of Jude and John, for these also were written under inspiration of Godâs holy spirit and were added to the collection of inspired Christian writings, to complete the inspired Holy Bible.
15 Today, therefore, âall Scriptureâ includes the sixty-six books of the Bible, as it is now divided up in order.
Â
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JW Insider got a reaction from TrueTomHarley in 1914
The question was basically about whether a person should do their own research but then just keep quiet about it if they proved to themselves something different than they had accepted at baptism. I thought your answer was excellent.
Those of us who remain in the organization after researching the teachings on 1914 are remaining because this doctrine, even if completely wrong, does not negate the good work the organization is doing for the world in focusing on both the current and future benefits of God's kingdom, taking a stand on God's side, and offering the opportunity to join in with others who also want to share that message with the whole world. Were Peter, James and John still being used in the congregations around Jerusalem and Judea, even though they still had long-standing prejudices and misunderstandings about God's purpose for the Gentiles? (Acts 15 & 21; Gal 1 & 2) Of course they were!
Did teachings coming from those same men stumble others? (Galatians, Barnabas, etc.) According to Paul, people were definitely stumbled by the influence these brothers, but Paul continued to work with them and cooperate with them. Our decision to continue working with the Witnesses should also still make sense if we believe there is no other group that teaches what we believe about various Bible teachings that are important to us (neutrality, conscientious objection two war, teachings about morality/Trinity/hell/soul, etc.).
Also, there are those who might think that it is hypocritical to find something wrong in our personal research and then merely keep quiet about it. I'd say that we would be wrong to bring it up in the context of our congregations. This might cause divisions, and might influence people to choose a side based on "human factors" (who debates the best, who "sounds" more loyal, who "sounds" more intelligent, who has more human authority, the number of people who agree or disagree, etc., etc.)
But, if we recall Matthew 18, the most important thing is to go to the source of the issue. It's not the people in our congregation, or even the elders in our congregation. They are not the source of this teaching. In this case we should go to the brothers who are the publishers and promoters of this teaching, to see what they say in defense of the teaching. As you say, we may not be satisfied, or find that they don't answer, or won't answer, or can't answer. Then we can make up our mind how we might still try to absolve our own conscience on the matter, or make a defense of our own faith on the matter. But we still need NOT go to our local congregation about it, or try to find persons there who will side with us. This will still create unnecessary contentions. It will make it appear that it is a matter of personal ego to be right or prove others wrong. If it were a matter of life and death, this might be different.
If this is the same argument that John Butler often made, then the point is that the context is only about the Hebrew Scriptures, not the Christian Greek Scriptures, much of which had not been written yet. This is already mentioned however in our own publications:
*** ws17 December p. 16 ParentsâHelp Your Children Become âWise for Salvationâ ***
âYOU HAVE KNOWN THE HOLY WRITINGSâ
3 The apostle Paul first visited Lystra in the year 47. This is probably when Timothy, who may have been a teenager, learned about Jesusâ teachings. He applied what he learned, and two years later he began traveling with Paul. About 16 years after that, Paul wrote to Timothy: âContinue in the things that you learned and were persuaded to believe, knowing from whom you learned them and that from infancy you have known the holy writings [the Hebrew Scriptures], which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.â (2 Timothy 3:14, 15) Notice that Paul said that Timothy (1) knew the holy writings, (2) was persuaded to believe the things he learned, and (3) became wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. . . . Timothy knew the Hebrew Scriptures âfrom infancy,â that is, from the time he was very young
The addition of the term "[the Hebrew Scriptures]" is in the original quotation, even though it was put in brackets. However, the Watchtower's emphasis has always been on the fact that since most of these additional book by apostles and other mature men had already been written that the reference is to all the books both OT and NT.
*** w63 11/1 pp. 652-653 pars. 14-15 The Book of âEverlasting Good Newsâ is Beneficial ***
Consequently, when Paul wrote his final letter to Timothy and said: âAll Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial,â there were doubtless twenty-one inspired books, all addressed to Christians, in addition to the thirty-nine books of the Hebrew Scriptures. (2Â Tim. 3:16) Today Paulâs expression âAll Scripture is inspired of Godâ includes the writings of Jude and John, for these also were written under inspiration of Godâs holy spirit and were added to the collection of inspired Christian writings, to complete the inspired Holy Bible.
15 Today, therefore, âall Scriptureâ includes the sixty-six books of the Bible, as it is now divided up in order.
Â
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JW Insider got a reaction from Arauna in 1914
The question was basically about whether a person should do their own research but then just keep quiet about it if they proved to themselves something different than they had accepted at baptism. I thought your answer was excellent.
Those of us who remain in the organization after researching the teachings on 1914 are remaining because this doctrine, even if completely wrong, does not negate the good work the organization is doing for the world in focusing on both the current and future benefits of God's kingdom, taking a stand on God's side, and offering the opportunity to join in with others who also want to share that message with the whole world. Were Peter, James and John still being used in the congregations around Jerusalem and Judea, even though they still had long-standing prejudices and misunderstandings about God's purpose for the Gentiles? (Acts 15 & 21; Gal 1 & 2) Of course they were!
Did teachings coming from those same men stumble others? (Galatians, Barnabas, etc.) According to Paul, people were definitely stumbled by the influence these brothers, but Paul continued to work with them and cooperate with them. Our decision to continue working with the Witnesses should also still make sense if we believe there is no other group that teaches what we believe about various Bible teachings that are important to us (neutrality, conscientious objection two war, teachings about morality/Trinity/hell/soul, etc.).
Also, there are those who might think that it is hypocritical to find something wrong in our personal research and then merely keep quiet about it. I'd say that we would be wrong to bring it up in the context of our congregations. This might cause divisions, and might influence people to choose a side based on "human factors" (who debates the best, who "sounds" more loyal, who "sounds" more intelligent, who has more human authority, the number of people who agree or disagree, etc., etc.)
But, if we recall Matthew 18, the most important thing is to go to the source of the issue. It's not the people in our congregation, or even the elders in our congregation. They are not the source of this teaching. In this case we should go to the brothers who are the publishers and promoters of this teaching, to see what they say in defense of the teaching. As you say, we may not be satisfied, or find that they don't answer, or won't answer, or can't answer. Then we can make up our mind how we might still try to absolve our own conscience on the matter, or make a defense of our own faith on the matter. But we still need NOT go to our local congregation about it, or try to find persons there who will side with us. This will still create unnecessary contentions. It will make it appear that it is a matter of personal ego to be right or prove others wrong. If it were a matter of life and death, this might be different.
If this is the same argument that John Butler often made, then the point is that the context is only about the Hebrew Scriptures, not the Christian Greek Scriptures, much of which had not been written yet. This is already mentioned however in our own publications:
*** ws17 December p. 16 ParentsâHelp Your Children Become âWise for Salvationâ ***
âYOU HAVE KNOWN THE HOLY WRITINGSâ
3 The apostle Paul first visited Lystra in the year 47. This is probably when Timothy, who may have been a teenager, learned about Jesusâ teachings. He applied what he learned, and two years later he began traveling with Paul. About 16 years after that, Paul wrote to Timothy: âContinue in the things that you learned and were persuaded to believe, knowing from whom you learned them and that from infancy you have known the holy writings [the Hebrew Scriptures], which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.â (2 Timothy 3:14, 15) Notice that Paul said that Timothy (1) knew the holy writings, (2) was persuaded to believe the things he learned, and (3) became wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. . . . Timothy knew the Hebrew Scriptures âfrom infancy,â that is, from the time he was very young
The addition of the term "[the Hebrew Scriptures]" is in the original quotation, even though it was put in brackets. However, the Watchtower's emphasis has always been on the fact that since most of these additional book by apostles and other mature men had already been written that the reference is to all the books both OT and NT.
*** w63 11/1 pp. 652-653 pars. 14-15 The Book of âEverlasting Good Newsâ is Beneficial ***
Consequently, when Paul wrote his final letter to Timothy and said: âAll Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial,â there were doubtless twenty-one inspired books, all addressed to Christians, in addition to the thirty-nine books of the Hebrew Scriptures. (2Â Tim. 3:16) Today Paulâs expression âAll Scripture is inspired of Godâ includes the writings of Jude and John, for these also were written under inspiration of Godâs holy spirit and were added to the collection of inspired Christian writings, to complete the inspired Holy Bible.
15 Today, therefore, âall Scriptureâ includes the sixty-six books of the Bible, as it is now divided up in order.
Â
-
JW Insider got a reaction from ComfortMyPeople in 1914
The question was basically about whether a person should do their own research but then just keep quiet about it if they proved to themselves something different than they had accepted at baptism. I thought your answer was excellent.
Those of us who remain in the organization after researching the teachings on 1914 are remaining because this doctrine, even if completely wrong, does not negate the good work the organization is doing for the world in focusing on both the current and future benefits of God's kingdom, taking a stand on God's side, and offering the opportunity to join in with others who also want to share that message with the whole world. Were Peter, James and John still being used in the congregations around Jerusalem and Judea, even though they still had long-standing prejudices and misunderstandings about God's purpose for the Gentiles? (Acts 15 & 21; Gal 1 & 2) Of course they were!
Did teachings coming from those same men stumble others? (Galatians, Barnabas, etc.) According to Paul, people were definitely stumbled by the influence these brothers, but Paul continued to work with them and cooperate with them. Our decision to continue working with the Witnesses should also still make sense if we believe there is no other group that teaches what we believe about various Bible teachings that are important to us (neutrality, conscientious objection two war, teachings about morality/Trinity/hell/soul, etc.).
Also, there are those who might think that it is hypocritical to find something wrong in our personal research and then merely keep quiet about it. I'd say that we would be wrong to bring it up in the context of our congregations. This might cause divisions, and might influence people to choose a side based on "human factors" (who debates the best, who "sounds" more loyal, who "sounds" more intelligent, who has more human authority, the number of people who agree or disagree, etc., etc.)
But, if we recall Matthew 18, the most important thing is to go to the source of the issue. It's not the people in our congregation, or even the elders in our congregation. They are not the source of this teaching. In this case we should go to the brothers who are the publishers and promoters of this teaching, to see what they say in defense of the teaching. As you say, we may not be satisfied, or find that they don't answer, or won't answer, or can't answer. Then we can make up our mind how we might still try to absolve our own conscience on the matter, or make a defense of our own faith on the matter. But we still need NOT go to our local congregation about it, or try to find persons there who will side with us. This will still create unnecessary contentions. It will make it appear that it is a matter of personal ego to be right or prove others wrong. If it were a matter of life and death, this might be different.
If this is the same argument that John Butler often made, then the point is that the context is only about the Hebrew Scriptures, not the Christian Greek Scriptures, much of which had not been written yet. This is already mentioned however in our own publications:
*** ws17 December p. 16 ParentsâHelp Your Children Become âWise for Salvationâ ***
âYOU HAVE KNOWN THE HOLY WRITINGSâ
3 The apostle Paul first visited Lystra in the year 47. This is probably when Timothy, who may have been a teenager, learned about Jesusâ teachings. He applied what he learned, and two years later he began traveling with Paul. About 16 years after that, Paul wrote to Timothy: âContinue in the things that you learned and were persuaded to believe, knowing from whom you learned them and that from infancy you have known the holy writings [the Hebrew Scriptures], which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.â (2 Timothy 3:14, 15) Notice that Paul said that Timothy (1) knew the holy writings, (2) was persuaded to believe the things he learned, and (3) became wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. . . . Timothy knew the Hebrew Scriptures âfrom infancy,â that is, from the time he was very young
The addition of the term "[the Hebrew Scriptures]" is in the original quotation, even though it was put in brackets. However, the Watchtower's emphasis has always been on the fact that since most of these additional book by apostles and other mature men had already been written that the reference is to all the books both OT and NT.
*** w63 11/1 pp. 652-653 pars. 14-15 The Book of âEverlasting Good Newsâ is Beneficial ***
Consequently, when Paul wrote his final letter to Timothy and said: âAll Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial,â there were doubtless twenty-one inspired books, all addressed to Christians, in addition to the thirty-nine books of the Hebrew Scriptures. (2Â Tim. 3:16) Today Paulâs expression âAll Scripture is inspired of Godâ includes the writings of Jude and John, for these also were written under inspiration of Godâs holy spirit and were added to the collection of inspired Christian writings, to complete the inspired Holy Bible.
15 Today, therefore, âall Scriptureâ includes the sixty-six books of the Bible, as it is now divided up in order.
Â
-
JW Insider got a reaction from ComfortMyPeople in WT: The most important thing for Jehovah is to sanctify himself.
I don't think that we need to worry about the difference in priorities of various aspects of Jehovah's purpose. His thoughts are higher than ours, and it's not up to us to try to prioritize specific things that were not already prioritized for us in the Bible. In fact, all the items listed below are tied together so that we cannot really separate, for example, his sanctification from the well-being of good angels and good people (and "all creation").
Jehovah's eternal purpose the outworking of His purpose by the Kingdom throughout mankind's history the vindication of His sovereignty the sanctification of Jehovah's name, reputation, righteousness, purpose the explanation for sin, suffering and death in this system the meaning and purpose of the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ the question of motivation for our Christian activities (works); whether reward (hope) or faith and love the central theme of love for both God and neighbor Each of these is tied together. Sometimes, for example. we (JWs) have concerned ourselves over the priority of Jehovah's vindication or his sovereignty. But when we look at the things that the Bible is concerned with prioritizing, these are not included. Paul prioritized "love" over faith and hope. Jesus prioritized love of God and neighbor over all other commandments in the law. Jesus prioritized mercy over sacrifice.
The entire book of Romans, especially, ties all these together, and just a few examples will remind us of how Paul touched on almost every subject in the list above
(Romans 8:18-25) 18 For I consider that the sufferings of the present time do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us. 19 For the creation is waiting with eager expectation for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. 23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom. 24 For we were saved in this hope; but hope that is seen is not hope, for when a man sees a thing, does he hope for it? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we keep eagerly waiting for it with endurance.
(Romans 5:1-15) . . .Therefore, now that we have been declared righteous as a result of faith, let us enjoy peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we also have obtained access by faith into this undeserved kindness in which we now stand; and let us rejoice, based on hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only that, but let us rejoice while in tribulations, since we know that tribulation produces endurance; 4 endurance, in turn, an approved condition; the approved condition, in turn, hope, 5 and the hope does not lead to disappointment; because the love of God has been poured out into our hearts through the holy spirit, which was given to us. 6 For, indeed, while we were still weak, Christ died for ungodly men at the appointed time. 7 For hardly would anyone die for a righteous man; though perhaps for a good man someone may dare to die. 8 But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. . . . 12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinnedâ. 13 For sin was in the world before the Law, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the same way that Adam transgressed, who bears a resemblance to the one who was to come. 15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if by one manâs trespass many died, how much more did the undeserved kindness of God and his free gift by the undeserved kindness of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to many!
Just a quick aside, but was this verse [Romans 5:13] ever used in support of the idea that the Watchtower had taught about persons destroyed at Sodom, for example, when we said that they would still have a chance for a resurrection?
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JW Insider got a reaction from TrueTomHarley in WT: The most important thing for Jehovah is to sanctify himself.
I don't think that we need to worry about the difference in priorities of various aspects of Jehovah's purpose. His thoughts are higher than ours, and it's not up to us to try to prioritize specific things that were not already prioritized for us in the Bible. In fact, all the items listed below are tied together so that we cannot really separate, for example, his sanctification from the well-being of good angels and good people (and "all creation").
Jehovah's eternal purpose the outworking of His purpose by the Kingdom throughout mankind's history the vindication of His sovereignty the sanctification of Jehovah's name, reputation, righteousness, purpose the explanation for sin, suffering and death in this system the meaning and purpose of the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ the question of motivation for our Christian activities (works); whether reward (hope) or faith and love the central theme of love for both God and neighbor Each of these is tied together. Sometimes, for example. we (JWs) have concerned ourselves over the priority of Jehovah's vindication or his sovereignty. But when we look at the things that the Bible is concerned with prioritizing, these are not included. Paul prioritized "love" over faith and hope. Jesus prioritized love of God and neighbor over all other commandments in the law. Jesus prioritized mercy over sacrifice.
The entire book of Romans, especially, ties all these together, and just a few examples will remind us of how Paul touched on almost every subject in the list above
(Romans 8:18-25) 18 For I consider that the sufferings of the present time do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us. 19 For the creation is waiting with eager expectation for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. 23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom. 24 For we were saved in this hope; but hope that is seen is not hope, for when a man sees a thing, does he hope for it? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we keep eagerly waiting for it with endurance.
(Romans 5:1-15) . . .Therefore, now that we have been declared righteous as a result of faith, let us enjoy peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we also have obtained access by faith into this undeserved kindness in which we now stand; and let us rejoice, based on hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only that, but let us rejoice while in tribulations, since we know that tribulation produces endurance; 4 endurance, in turn, an approved condition; the approved condition, in turn, hope, 5 and the hope does not lead to disappointment; because the love of God has been poured out into our hearts through the holy spirit, which was given to us. 6 For, indeed, while we were still weak, Christ died for ungodly men at the appointed time. 7 For hardly would anyone die for a righteous man; though perhaps for a good man someone may dare to die. 8 But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. . . . 12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinnedâ. 13 For sin was in the world before the Law, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the same way that Adam transgressed, who bears a resemblance to the one who was to come. 15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if by one manâs trespass many died, how much more did the undeserved kindness of God and his free gift by the undeserved kindness of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to many!
Just a quick aside, but was this verse [Romans 5:13] ever used in support of the idea that the Watchtower had taught about persons destroyed at Sodom, for example, when we said that they would still have a chance for a resurrection?
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JW Insider got a reaction from Kosonen in WT: The most important thing for Jehovah is to sanctify himself.
I don't think that we need to worry about the difference in priorities of various aspects of Jehovah's purpose. His thoughts are higher than ours, and it's not up to us to try to prioritize specific things that were not already prioritized for us in the Bible. In fact, all the items listed below are tied together so that we cannot really separate, for example, his sanctification from the well-being of good angels and good people (and "all creation").
Jehovah's eternal purpose the outworking of His purpose by the Kingdom throughout mankind's history the vindication of His sovereignty the sanctification of Jehovah's name, reputation, righteousness, purpose the explanation for sin, suffering and death in this system the meaning and purpose of the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ the question of motivation for our Christian activities (works); whether reward (hope) or faith and love the central theme of love for both God and neighbor Each of these is tied together. Sometimes, for example. we (JWs) have concerned ourselves over the priority of Jehovah's vindication or his sovereignty. But when we look at the things that the Bible is concerned with prioritizing, these are not included. Paul prioritized "love" over faith and hope. Jesus prioritized love of God and neighbor over all other commandments in the law. Jesus prioritized mercy over sacrifice.
The entire book of Romans, especially, ties all these together, and just a few examples will remind us of how Paul touched on almost every subject in the list above
(Romans 8:18-25) 18 For I consider that the sufferings of the present time do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us. 19 For the creation is waiting with eager expectation for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. 23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom. 24 For we were saved in this hope; but hope that is seen is not hope, for when a man sees a thing, does he hope for it? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we keep eagerly waiting for it with endurance.
(Romans 5:1-15) . . .Therefore, now that we have been declared righteous as a result of faith, let us enjoy peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we also have obtained access by faith into this undeserved kindness in which we now stand; and let us rejoice, based on hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only that, but let us rejoice while in tribulations, since we know that tribulation produces endurance; 4 endurance, in turn, an approved condition; the approved condition, in turn, hope, 5 and the hope does not lead to disappointment; because the love of God has been poured out into our hearts through the holy spirit, which was given to us. 6 For, indeed, while we were still weak, Christ died for ungodly men at the appointed time. 7 For hardly would anyone die for a righteous man; though perhaps for a good man someone may dare to die. 8 But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. . . . 12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinnedâ. 13 For sin was in the world before the Law, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the same way that Adam transgressed, who bears a resemblance to the one who was to come. 15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if by one manâs trespass many died, how much more did the undeserved kindness of God and his free gift by the undeserved kindness of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to many!
Just a quick aside, but was this verse [Romans 5:13] ever used in support of the idea that the Watchtower had taught about persons destroyed at Sodom, for example, when we said that they would still have a chance for a resurrection?
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JW Insider reacted to Arauna in WT: The most important thing for Jehovah is to sanctify himself.
While individuals can be happy in this world because they draw close to God and experience his approval, the entire creation will only in future be really happy and thus bring glory to God by living according to his laws of love as he originally planned.
So true, each person must realize they cannot step into the space of another person and violate his rights. Self-sacrificing love (not only love) can do this. When I care more for you than myself and you care more for me than yourself..... this way of thinking will shift the entire societies' outlook on life.
At present, people who really show this kind of love are viewed as weak and most people think they are impractical - especially when it comes to asserting yourself, defence etc.
A wonderful thought. .... and same love for all neighbours. Soon all Christians will be tested for our love for God...... as this world becomes more wicked we will be forced to compromise on those very laws/ principles given byJehovah by condoning immoral practices which have become acceptable to the world.
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JW Insider reacted to Arauna in WT: The most important thing for Jehovah is to sanctify himself.
JWs teach that the sanctification of Jehovahs 'righteousness' is most important. (Jehova is the indisputable sovereign - he need not prove it to anyone because he alone has the power to enforce it.)
Jehovahs  name must be cleared from the accusation from satan that his sovreignty is a selfish or unjust (unrighteous) sovereignty.  Satan accused God of withholding knowledge of making their own moral decisions from Adam/Eve. Being independent from God would serve them better.
Satan knew that God is just and would allow for the accusation to be tested. God does not break his own righteousness. Satan did not challenge the power if God because he would lose this argument. He challenged the righteousness of Jehovahs rule.
Jehovahs way of ruling is the best way...... and we will all discover this in the new system when we all bring glory to God by letting our ego go and following Jehovahs principles of unselfish love.
Jehovah is humble and righteous - and we will reflect these qualities perfectly in future.  Jehovah gave the ' best he had' (jesus) to save us from calamity. It was painful for him when his son died even though he knew he could resurrect him. It was the fact that his son had to go through that agony while being righteous.
Jehovahs righteousness will be vindicated because of his unselfish love. Our love for him changes over time as we realize that Jehova is always righteous. While he promises us a reward - I agree with you my brother...... our unselfish love will take us to death for Jehovah - without expecting a reward.
If we only live for the reward and not the love and justice/righteousness, mercy it represents - then our unselfishness needs some work.
The love of jehovah and Jesus never includes death. God wants no-one to die but all to be saved. The whole earth was designed with man in mind. Satan is the father of death.
This is not a contest (chess game) between the power of god and satan. It is about the love and righteousness of God and the death, chaos and destruction which independence from God brings to all creatures.
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JW Insider reacted to Anna in 1914
I am continuing from your earlier post.....
Well it depends on what it is and how they feel about it. If a person disagrees with the teaching of 1914 for example, then he has to decide how important that is to him. He can write to the branch, as many have done. If they don't like the reply, or don't agree with it, they have to again decide how important it is to them. Not everything is black and white and there may be something that you or they have overlooked. Is 1914 a life or death question? In my opinion it isn't, but in someone else's opinion it might be. And they may feel that they cannot continue being JW because of it. We don't have to go around telling everyone, because it is a personal opinion. Even if we can find "proof" that we are right, we should respect the opinions of others, just like we would like others to respect out opinion. With something like 1914, we really need to decide the importance of it in light of the big picture. If JW'S have got 1914 wrong, how does that affect how we view everything else we have learned from that same source? Remember, mistakes will be made. I read some of your earlier posts where you are actually defending what you have learned from JWs (God and Jesus being separate, there being no fiery hell, the promise of an earthly paradise, the last days etc.)
It is true, we can have our own opinion on what a scripture means. But usually that is an exception if the scripture is read in context of the chapter AND the whole Bible. A few scriptures can be ambiguous though. Hopefully, before we signed up to become one of JWs we have already cleared that up and accepted the interpretation of JWs.
How do you suggest they should be in contact earth wide?
Yes, you are making a good point there. However in practice, as you know, most anointed are scattered throughout the earth. In the days before the internet communication, to be of any value, would have been difficult. Today, this is surely a lot easier, but not everyone is able to communicate via the internet. Not only that, and this is the point I was trying to make earlier, how would one know if someone was the "true anointed". I joked, and said any True Tom Harley could claim they were anointed. Can you imagine how that would work? It could become a total mess if some "false anointed" communicated whatever they liked. How would one sift what was genuine from what wasn't genuine? Â
The GB is not concerned if the anointed communicate with each other., It is everyone's right to communicate with all of the brotherhood. The GB is concerned that the whole brotherhood remains united.
Â
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JW Insider reacted to TrueTomHarley in 1914
It sounds like what you want is democracy in your place of worshipâtheocracy by the people, as though âif the people come to believe it, it must mean that God has so influenced them.â It doesnât work that way.Â
âAll your people will be taught by Jehovah,â the verse says. It does not say that they will be taught by themselves. Who needs God if we are to be taught by ourselves? The problems you encounter with those elders reflects that they buy into the former (taught by Jehovah) rather than the latter (taught by the people).
Plainly, there must be some interface between the divine and the human. Integral to the faith of Jehovahâs Witnesses is that that interface is the successor of those who brought the truth to us in the first placeâwhoever fills the shoes of the âolder men in Jerusalem.â That doesnât mean that each person is not responsible for his/her own relationship with God, but it does mean that each is not an island unto himself.Â
I know where you are coming from on this, but it is overstated. One doesnât have to believe every little thing, though to be sure, one is encouraged to. But you donât have to. What you cannot do is grab the wheel of the bus. Most elders will take your remarks below as evidence that you are trying to do this:
The clear inference of these remarks is that you mean to tear the cover off this âfaulty and maybe corrupt organization.â Do you really think that you will be welcomed with open arms? Their entire faith is that Jehovah does not lead his people that way.
From the Reseach Guide commentary on Genesis 1:31â
âThe fall from perfection explains why the human body, though marvelously designed, is susceptible to deformities and disease. Evolution is therefore incompatible with the Bible. Evolution presents modern man as an improving animal. The Bible presents modern man as the degenerating descendant of a perfect man.â
Because this is true, the âtop-downâ approach of the JW organization is what resonates with members. Yours smacks of the âbottom-upâ approach, man as an âimproving animalâ developing powerful skills of thought to lift us all up by our own bootstraps.
@JW Insider says each Christian has an obligation to examine the foundation of his faith. This is true, but means of examination differ from person to person. For most people, the only examination one must make of their vehicle is to observe that it gets them from place to place, to bring it in for cursory inspection each year, and to accept the fact that, being imperfect, it will require maintenance and repair from time to time. There will be a few mechanically minded owners that will go the extra mile, tear down the engine to examine closely each component, and in doing so, might occasionally forestall a problem, but this is hardly something to be expected of the average person, even if they are the elders that you want to run your thoughts by.
I will concede that our elders might be prone at times to read âfalse positives,â and it would be better if they didnât. So? Doctors read and act upon false positives all the time and no one doubts their competency on that account. Today elders see direction on avoiding those who raise sects or divisions. (Titus 3:10, 2 Timothy 2:17, 1 Cor 1:10) and might at times overreact. Maybe they should rise to the occasion and âsnatch from the fire those who have doubts.â Maybe. However the tone of your remarks indicate that you have more than doubtsâyou have assertions and conclusions that you want to debate with them. We are not a debating people. We are the type that waits to be taught by Jehovah.
Iâm not thrilled about any number of things in the Witness organization. From time to time I drop one or two of them in this forum. I would prefer that some did feel inclined to discuss with you your pointsâat least until you became so insistent upon them that it became clear to both that your home lay elsewhere. Still, I keep things in perspective. The good of the JW organization far outweighs the bad. Regarding my pet peeves, I look around to see if there is anyone accomplishing the acts of faith that JWs do minus those peeves. (Please donât come back with âacts of faithâ are not the important thingâor if you do, take it up with Luke for writing âActs of the Apostlesâ when he should have written âFaith of the Apostles.)  If there was, I would go there. But there is notânot even remotely closeâso that I even begin to reassess my pet peeves. I am imperfect, too. Maybe if an organization was structured around my peeves, it would promptly implode. So I accept congregation policy and disciplineâI may not even think it is right in every occasion and particular, but such is the nature of working with people. Iâve learned how to yield and how to cooperate. I try to get my head around them, rather than insisting that they get their head around me.
This strikes me as a remarkable lack of faith. Ought God not be able to unite people? Ought he not be able to get them to cooperate, and in so doing, magnify their acts of worship? Yet you stand as an island hailing ships passing by.
You thereby have no need of applying the above verses on avoiding divisions, for you stand by yoursef. You have no need to apply the countless verses as to how to get along, because you make no effort to get along. Where are the meetings of Hebrews 10:24 that you are not to forsake? Where is the âinâ of Haggai 2:7 that the precious things of the nations are to come in to? You have no need, or even opportunity, of showing love for the brothers, since you have no brothersâyou have separated from themâto Godâs dishonor. Maybe he will provide a âtrue anointedâ (essentially from scratch) within ten years.
Hypercritcal people, such as your words suggest you might be one of, are a nightmare in the congregation. They are constantly causing contentions over matters great and small. Yet, they are stumbled at the drop of a pin, and cause chaos in that way, too. The GB and elders work tirelessly to readjust such persons. But if they absolutely will not change, it is better in my view if they depart. They cause nothing but trouble.
They need to get their heads around, and more importantly, their hearts around, the huge forgiveness Jesus afforded Peter for failure at a critical time, and yet even after this, Peter failed in a colossal manner, buckling to peer pressure that even some schoolchildren would not buckle toâthe matter of avoiding Gentile Christians when the Jewish Christians came calling (stumbling even Barnabas)âand yet he continued to serve as a pillar of the congregation.
Itâs no good to be an island. The time for such passed long ago. Will your theme text be that of Paul Simon?
I've built walls
A fortress deep and mighty
That none may penetrate
I have no need of friendship, friendship causes pain
It's laughter and it's loving I disdain
I am a rock
I am an island Don't talk of love
But I've heard the words before
It's sleeping in my memory
I won't disturb the slumber of feelings that have died
If I never loved I never would have cried
I am a rock
I am an island. -
JW Insider reacted to Arauna in Caucasian Dance
The original "white guys" Caucasians, come from this area. Armenia (neighbour) was part of ancient kingdom of Urartu.Â
Turkey took mount Ararat from Armenia during the genocide period I believe but one can still see it from the Armenian capital city, YerevanÂ
In the museum, I saw a massive cauldron which was taken from Assyria in time of Sargon 2.Â
Georgian language and Armenians see themselves as related peoples. Of course throughout the history they were taken over by Turks, arabs, Russians etc which influenced the culture.
These two countries are strong orthodox Christians and managed to retain this. I think the mountains assisted them to fight back invaders successfully. Mountains everywhere....... even modern warfare has problems with mountains (as in Afghanistan).
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JW Insider got a reaction from Anna in A DPA question
You still seem to have the idea that persons who are truly anointed will be inspired by God's holy spirit and not let personal viewpoints get in the way. Look again at Acts 15:
(Acts 15:2) . . .But after quite a bit of dissension and disputing by Paul and BarÊčna·bas with them,. . .
(Acts 15:6, 7) 6 So the apostles and the elders gathered together to look into this matter. 7 After much intense discussion had taken place,. . .