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JW Insider

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  1. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Anna in who is referred to here?   
    You haven't identified a third group. What you have called a "third" group is really just a comment about the first two groups.
    In fact, the scenario reminds me of an actual situation that happened when I worked at 1500 Broadway in NYC's Times Square, and a national TV network rented out our huge (warm) conference room on the third floor overlooking the crowds who come to watch a ball drop on New Year's Eve.
    There would be celebrities coming in to our building, some entertainment, and free food and drink. Some people at this company worked a late shift with the computers (running end of year, end of quarter reports) and they were going to be there when it happened (when the ball dropped). Some people were going home first and then coming back, hopefully, in time to get back into the building. 
    GROUP 1: Those who would go home first before coming back to see the event. GROUP 2: Those who would still be working here at the time of the event. GROUP 3? At the time of the event, it will be New Year's, and those in GROUP 1 and those in GROUP 2 can then both come into the unused side of the conference room at the same time, hoping to meet celebrities, the TV crews, watch the crowds below, etc. As you can see, there is no real GROUP 3 being described. It's just a comment about the situation for those in GROUP 1 and those in GROUP 2. In fact, you can even imagine someone worrying that those who have gone home first might not be back in time for the event and subsequent celebration.
    You might even be able to imagine that there could be some jealousy that those who were working at the time would have access to the celebration when those who had gone home, might miss out. You could even imagine someone in management saying:
    Moreover, workers, we want you to know that those who went home already will not miss out on the celebration. They will still be back in time to meet us here. For though most of the roads will be blocked to taxis and cars, still, if we have faith in the subways, and that the guards downstairs will be there to let them in the building, then they will be brought here in time with us. For this is what we tell you, that we the working who remain here until the celebratory event, will in no way precede those who have already gone home; because they are coming back here and will be allowed into the building with their passes. Afterward, we the working who are still working when the event begins, will be allowed into the conference room, together with them at the same time. And we will thus all be in the conference room together. So no one should worry about their fellow workers who will have already gone home first. Keep comforting one another with these words.
  2. Haha
    JW Insider got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in Who Did Cain Fear Was Going To Kill Him?   
    whaaaaaaatttttttt!???
  3. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from James Thomas Rook Jr. in who is referred to here?   
    You haven't identified a third group. What you have called a "third" group is really just a comment about the first two groups.
    In fact, the scenario reminds me of an actual situation that happened when I worked at 1500 Broadway in NYC's Times Square, and a national TV network rented out our huge (warm) conference room on the third floor overlooking the crowds who come to watch a ball drop on New Year's Eve.
    There would be celebrities coming in to our building, some entertainment, and free food and drink. Some people at this company worked a late shift with the computers (running end of year, end of quarter reports) and they were going to be there when it happened (when the ball dropped). Some people were going home first and then coming back, hopefully, in time to get back into the building. 
    GROUP 1: Those who would go home first before coming back to see the event. GROUP 2: Those who would still be working here at the time of the event. GROUP 3? At the time of the event, it will be New Year's, and those in GROUP 1 and those in GROUP 2 can then both come into the unused side of the conference room at the same time, hoping to meet celebrities, the TV crews, watch the crowds below, etc. As you can see, there is no real GROUP 3 being described. It's just a comment about the situation for those in GROUP 1 and those in GROUP 2. In fact, you can even imagine someone worrying that those who have gone home first might not be back in time for the event and subsequent celebration.
    You might even be able to imagine that there could be some jealousy that those who were working at the time would have access to the celebration when those who had gone home, might miss out. You could even imagine someone in management saying:
    Moreover, workers, we want you to know that those who went home already will not miss out on the celebration. They will still be back in time to meet us here. For though most of the roads will be blocked to taxis and cars, still, if we have faith in the subways, and that the guards downstairs will be there to let them in the building, then they will be brought here in time with us. For this is what we tell you, that we the working who remain here until the celebratory event, will in no way precede those who have already gone home; because they are coming back here and will be allowed into the building with their passes. Afterward, we the working who are still working when the event begins, will be allowed into the conference room, together with them at the same time. And we will thus all be in the conference room together. So no one should worry about their fellow workers who will have already gone home first. Keep comforting one another with these words.
  4. Like
    JW Insider got a reaction from admin in Dzhanibekov effect   
    Wow. As a kid we used to make spinning tops at my father's electronics lab, because he had lots of scrap equipment and tools to play with. We never knew why a perfectly good spinning top would completely flip over and keep spinning on the other side after a small wobble that didn't appear to change the center of gravity. Kinetic forces tied to angular momentum were a bit beyond me.
    I do remember our best model was a very large solid metal plate about three feet across, with a small 'bb' or ball bearing that we soldered to its exact center. We would then spin the plate with only the ball bearing touching the polished marble floor, and it could spin for nearly an hour. (And no chance of it flipping over.)
  5. Like
    JW Insider got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in WHAT DID YOU LEARN THAT WAS NEW AT THE 2019 "LOVE NEVER FAILS" REGIONAL CONVENTION ?   
    That's why they say that those who don't study their history, are doomed to repeat it . . . . in the next semester, or maybe even in summer session.
  6. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from ComfortMyPeople in Song #25 - "A Special Possession"   
    You could read between the lines that something like this was expected to occur from previous Watchtower articles, including the "rapture" discussion:
    *** w15 7/15 pp. 18-19 pars. 14-17 “Your Deliverance Is Getting Near”! ***
    It is the time when the remaining ones of the 144,000 will receive their heavenly reward. (1 Thess. 4:15-17; Rev. 14:1) This event will take place at some point after the beginning of the attack by Gog of Magog. (Ezek. 38:11) Then these words of Jesus will be fulfilled: “At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father.”—Matt. 13:43.
    15 Does this mean that there will be a “rapture” of the anointed ones? . . .  Therefore, while we do not use the term “rapture” here because of its wrong connotation, the remaining faithful anointed will be gathered together in an instant of time.
    16 Once all the 144,000 are in heaven, the final preparations for the marriage of the Lamb can begin. (Rev. 19:9) But something else will happen before that joyous event. Remember, shortly before the remaining ones of the 144,000 are taken to heaven, Gog will attack God’s people. (Ezek. 38:16) What reaction does this provoke? On earth, God’s people will appear to be defenseless. They will obey the instructions given in the days of King Jehoshaphat: “You will not need to fight this battle. Take your position, stand still, and see the salvation of Jehovah in your behalf. O Judah and Jerusalem, do not be afraid or be terrified.” (2 Chron. 20:17) In heaven, however, there is a different reaction. Referring to the time when all the anointed are in heaven, Revelation 17:14 tells us this about the enemies of God’s people: “These will battle with the Lamb, but because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those with him who are called and chosen and faithful will do so.” Together with his 144,000 corulers in heaven, Jesus will come to the rescue of God’s people here on earth.
    17 The resulting war of Armageddon
    *** w15 3/15 p. 29 par. 18 Loyally Supporting Christ’s Brothers ***
    Before Armageddon breaks out, anointed ones will be taken to heaven. (Matt. 13:41-43
    *** w13 11/15 p. 20 Seven Shepherds, Eight Dukes—What They Mean for Us Today ***
    LESSONS FOR TODAY
    16 The prophecy about seven shepherds and eight dukes has its major fulfillment in our day. The citizens of ancient Jerusalem were attacked by the Assyrians. In the near future, Jehovah’s apparently vulnerable people will come under attack from the modern-day “Assyrian,” whose intent will be to wipe them out. The Scriptures refer to that attack as well as the attack of ‘Gog of Magog,’ the attack of “the king of the north,” and the attack of “the kings of the earth.” (Ezek. 38:2, 10-13; Dan. 11:40, 44, 45; Rev. 17:14; 19:19) Do these represent separate attacks? Not necessarily. The Bible could be referring to the same attack under different names. What ‘secret weapon’ does Micah’s prophecy indicate Jehovah would raise up against that implacable foe—“the Assyrian”? A very unlikely one—“seven shepherds, yes, eight dukes”! (Mic. 5:5) The shepherds and dukes (or, “princes,” NEB) in this implausible army are the congregation elders. (1 Pet. 5:2) Today, Jehovah certainly has provided an abundance of spiritual men to shepherd his precious sheep, to strengthen his people for the future attack of the modern-day “Assyrian.” Micah’s prophecy states that they will “shepherd the land of Assyria with the sword.” (Mic. 5:6) Yes, among ‘the weapons of their warfare,’ you will find “the sword of the spirit,” God’s Word.—2 Cor. 10:4; Eph. 6:17.
    17 Elders who are reading this article can draw some useful conclusions from the account we have just considered: (1) The most practical step that we can take to prepare for the coming attack of “the Assyrian” is that of strengthening our faith in God and helping our brothers to do the same. (2) When “the Assyrian” attacks, the elders must be absolutely convinced that Jehovah will deliver us. (3) At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not. (4) Now is the time for any who may be putting their trust in secular education, material things, or human institutions to adjust their thinking. The elders must stand ready to help any who may now be wavering in their faith.
    It's a similar point (in the 2013 article) about the fact that at this time it will be the congregation elders who take the lead. The elders take the lead in the absence of an anointed governing body. Of course, the point being spelled out here is the possibility that some of these elders will probably give direction at a wider level than just for a typical congregation. The possibility of each Branch continuing to operate for their own countries has been implied in statements at conventions, but this is the closest I have seen to implying an entirely new worldwide governing body.
    But how much we can read into this would depend on things like communications capabilities in the latter days of the great tribulation, or through Armageddon itself if it is an ongoing battle that is not resolved as quickly as some might imagine. The typical scenario that has been dramatized for us is one in which we trust local brothers, elders who have our best interests at heart, to give us direction . 
     
  7. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from ComfortMyPeople in Song #25 - "A Special Possession"   
    I thought that might be what you meant, but it sounded funny to use the term "anointed" as if it were the equivalent of saying "those who take the lead." That's because so few of the thousands of anointed are known to be taking the lead. But now I see why you included the question with Song 25, because the Governing Body will be among those who will disappear from the earth at some point prior to Armageddon.
    Perhaps this is preparation for us to begin thinking of accepting capable brothers from among the other sheep to begin taking the lead at higher levels, such as among the Governing Body in the very near future. For example, in 15 years if Armageddon has not arrived, and several members of the current Governing Body do not live that long, there may already be very few qualified anointed persons to choose from. Can we imagine a scenario where there are only two, and then only ONE member of the Governing Body? I believe that very few of the current GB Helpers claim to be anointed.
    I would agree that the actual, literal point of this article is to prepare us for the idea that there may be a sudden change to a kind of Governing Body made up of only members of the other sheep.
  8. Haha
    JW Insider reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in who is referred to here?   
    Of course there could be OVERLAPPING groups, JWI.
    These are known as zombies.
  9. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from James Thomas Rook Jr. in who is referred to here?   
    I only see "two groups" of anointed here:
    1. Those who are sleeping in death at the time the parousia arrives.
    2. Those who are still alive when the time for the parousia arrives.
  10. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from James Thomas Rook Jr. in WHAT DID YOU LEARN THAT WAS NEW AT THE 2019 "LOVE NEVER FAILS" REGIONAL CONVENTION ?   
    That's why they say that those who don't study their history, are doomed to repeat it . . . . in the next semester, or maybe even in summer session.
  11. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Bubba Johnson Jr in Song #25 - "A Special Possession"   
    It has done me good to make this little progress. Thanks again not only for the technical info but also for your viewpoint on the possible explanation of things. I never understood the relevance of the article on the  "shepherds and dukes." I must go back and reread that WT in view of the time that has passed. 
  12. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Anna in Song #25 - "A Special Possession"   
    Part of the problem might be getting your posts into the right section. This forum appears to have places to discuss dozens of topics, and the place for questions such as this might be found more easily if they are in the "Jehovah's Witnesses Open Club."
    Click on this link first: https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/clubs/11-jehovah’s-witnesses/
    Then click "Join Club" if you haven't already done that.
    Now whenever you click on one of the topics in that part of the forum you only need to click "Start a New Topic" near the top of any existing topic in that forum. Any new topic you start from there is in the correct forum. Right now you have some of these questions and comments attached to your profile, which most people won't even know are there (unless they are already following you).
     
  13. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Anna in Song #25 - "A Special Possession"   
    You could read between the lines that something like this was expected to occur from previous Watchtower articles, including the "rapture" discussion:
    *** w15 7/15 pp. 18-19 pars. 14-17 “Your Deliverance Is Getting Near”! ***
    It is the time when the remaining ones of the 144,000 will receive their heavenly reward. (1 Thess. 4:15-17; Rev. 14:1) This event will take place at some point after the beginning of the attack by Gog of Magog. (Ezek. 38:11) Then these words of Jesus will be fulfilled: “At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father.”—Matt. 13:43.
    15 Does this mean that there will be a “rapture” of the anointed ones? . . .  Therefore, while we do not use the term “rapture” here because of its wrong connotation, the remaining faithful anointed will be gathered together in an instant of time.
    16 Once all the 144,000 are in heaven, the final preparations for the marriage of the Lamb can begin. (Rev. 19:9) But something else will happen before that joyous event. Remember, shortly before the remaining ones of the 144,000 are taken to heaven, Gog will attack God’s people. (Ezek. 38:16) What reaction does this provoke? On earth, God’s people will appear to be defenseless. They will obey the instructions given in the days of King Jehoshaphat: “You will not need to fight this battle. Take your position, stand still, and see the salvation of Jehovah in your behalf. O Judah and Jerusalem, do not be afraid or be terrified.” (2 Chron. 20:17) In heaven, however, there is a different reaction. Referring to the time when all the anointed are in heaven, Revelation 17:14 tells us this about the enemies of God’s people: “These will battle with the Lamb, but because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those with him who are called and chosen and faithful will do so.” Together with his 144,000 corulers in heaven, Jesus will come to the rescue of God’s people here on earth.
    17 The resulting war of Armageddon
    *** w15 3/15 p. 29 par. 18 Loyally Supporting Christ’s Brothers ***
    Before Armageddon breaks out, anointed ones will be taken to heaven. (Matt. 13:41-43
    *** w13 11/15 p. 20 Seven Shepherds, Eight Dukes—What They Mean for Us Today ***
    LESSONS FOR TODAY
    16 The prophecy about seven shepherds and eight dukes has its major fulfillment in our day. The citizens of ancient Jerusalem were attacked by the Assyrians. In the near future, Jehovah’s apparently vulnerable people will come under attack from the modern-day “Assyrian,” whose intent will be to wipe them out. The Scriptures refer to that attack as well as the attack of ‘Gog of Magog,’ the attack of “the king of the north,” and the attack of “the kings of the earth.” (Ezek. 38:2, 10-13; Dan. 11:40, 44, 45; Rev. 17:14; 19:19) Do these represent separate attacks? Not necessarily. The Bible could be referring to the same attack under different names. What ‘secret weapon’ does Micah’s prophecy indicate Jehovah would raise up against that implacable foe—“the Assyrian”? A very unlikely one—“seven shepherds, yes, eight dukes”! (Mic. 5:5) The shepherds and dukes (or, “princes,” NEB) in this implausible army are the congregation elders. (1 Pet. 5:2) Today, Jehovah certainly has provided an abundance of spiritual men to shepherd his precious sheep, to strengthen his people for the future attack of the modern-day “Assyrian.” Micah’s prophecy states that they will “shepherd the land of Assyria with the sword.” (Mic. 5:6) Yes, among ‘the weapons of their warfare,’ you will find “the sword of the spirit,” God’s Word.—2 Cor. 10:4; Eph. 6:17.
    17 Elders who are reading this article can draw some useful conclusions from the account we have just considered: (1) The most practical step that we can take to prepare for the coming attack of “the Assyrian” is that of strengthening our faith in God and helping our brothers to do the same. (2) When “the Assyrian” attacks, the elders must be absolutely convinced that Jehovah will deliver us. (3) At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not. (4) Now is the time for any who may be putting their trust in secular education, material things, or human institutions to adjust their thinking. The elders must stand ready to help any who may now be wavering in their faith.
    It's a similar point (in the 2013 article) about the fact that at this time it will be the congregation elders who take the lead. The elders take the lead in the absence of an anointed governing body. Of course, the point being spelled out here is the possibility that some of these elders will probably give direction at a wider level than just for a typical congregation. The possibility of each Branch continuing to operate for their own countries has been implied in statements at conventions, but this is the closest I have seen to implying an entirely new worldwide governing body.
    But how much we can read into this would depend on things like communications capabilities in the latter days of the great tribulation, or through Armageddon itself if it is an ongoing battle that is not resolved as quickly as some might imagine. The typical scenario that has been dramatized for us is one in which we trust local brothers, elders who have our best interests at heart, to give us direction . 
     
  14. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Anna in Song #25 - "A Special Possession"   
    I thought that might be what you meant, but it sounded funny to use the term "anointed" as if it were the equivalent of saying "those who take the lead." That's because so few of the thousands of anointed are known to be taking the lead. But now I see why you included the question with Song 25, because the Governing Body will be among those who will disappear from the earth at some point prior to Armageddon.
    Perhaps this is preparation for us to begin thinking of accepting capable brothers from among the other sheep to begin taking the lead at higher levels, such as among the Governing Body in the very near future. For example, in 15 years if Armageddon has not arrived, and several members of the current Governing Body do not live that long, there may already be very few qualified anointed persons to choose from. Can we imagine a scenario where there are only two, and then only ONE member of the Governing Body? I believe that very few of the current GB Helpers claim to be anointed.
    I would agree that the actual, literal point of this article is to prepare us for the idea that there may be a sudden change to a kind of Governing Body made up of only members of the other sheep.
  15. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Anna in who is referred to here?   
    I only see "two groups" of anointed here:
    1. Those who are sleeping in death at the time the parousia arrives.
    2. Those who are still alive when the time for the parousia arrives.
  16. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to TrueTomHarley in The Russian Brothers are Holding Up Well, Thank You Very Much   
    What Witness of Jehovah could not think of their brothers in Russia when reviewing Philippians, this week’s Bible reading? 
    The imprisoned Paul writes: “Now I want you to know, brothers, that my situation has actually turned out for the advancement of the good news,  so that my prison bonds for the sake of Christ have become public knowledge among all the Praetorian Guard and all the rest.  Now most of the brothers in the Lord have gained confidence because of my prison bonds, and they are showing all the more courage to speak the word of God fearlessly.” (Philippians 1:12-14)
    It is the case with Witnesses in Russia, isn’t it? They are holding up pretty well, by all reports—it can be seen in the public support they give to ones punished by the state for their worship of God. As in the first century, “most of the brothers in the Lord have gained confidence,” trial-some though their circumstances are. We are proud of them, and even wonder whether we would do so well ourselves. ‘Don’t think that you can do it on your own strength,’ comes the answer, ‘and you will do fine.’
    The anti-cultist mastermind, Alexander Dvorkin, did not foresee it happening this way. Just after the ban went into effect in April 2017, he was “absolutely convinced that after a few years, the number of members of the organization will decrease dramatically, two or three times, because, when one cuts off its financial foundation, its ability to freely, without hindrance, recruit other people, to rent large halls and so on, then, in fact, people will lose interest and will very quickly disperse.” Now, two years is not “just a few years,” but it is not so far apart. He did not say “generations.” He expected his results rather quickly, and it is not turning out that way at all.
    One is reminded of Satan’s taunt: “Is it for nothing that Job has feared God?  Have you not put up a protective hedge around him and his house and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his livestock has spread out in the land. But, for a change, stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your very face.” (Job 1:9-11) It isn’t working out that way. Our brothers in Russia are doing us proud.
    Human rights advocates widely predicted that this would happen—it is not a circumstance solely of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but of people in general who are concerned with spiritual things. Similar fortitude is shown in other faiths as well. It is Dvorkin who, fleshly man that he is, totally misjudges the power of spiritual things to motivate. “But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually,” says the apostle again at 1 Corinthians 1:14.
    He drinks too much of his own Kool-Aid, and thus, when things fail to turn out as he anticipated, it is due to his own self-deluded assumptions. Dvorkin is playing the role outlaws of religion have played from before he was born, using state apparatus to squash enemies, and doing so under a guise of People’s Protector. His premise is wrong: that individual Witnesses are being “manipulated” by an evil corporate outside class. Instead, the ‘outside’ class IS them, merely in the organized form that members know is necessary to best implement the faith that they have chosen. They are not like the munchkins of his imagination, delighted that the wicked witch is destroyed. They recognize his attack as the attack on Christianity that it is.
    We see this all the time—enemies impose their own standards on spiritual things, and then draw wrong conclusions when things do not turn out as they have anticipated. It is seen when they make the self-determination that religious things cannot change, as secular and scientific things do, and that should Witnesses see that some teachings have “flip-flopped,” they will be outraged at having been “misled.” How can people be so nuts? They change all the time—it is called “tacking” and the “ever brightening light”—completely above board and nobody has ever said otherwise. 
    Still, the changes that are made are analogous to details, roughly akin to looking at the map anew and rereading it. It happens all the time with science. Somehow, physical people have decreed that it cannot happen with spiritual things. Of course it can. It is their own presumption of everything religious being autocratic, ironclad, and unyielding, that stymies them. It may not be so fluid—‘the each his own!—as the world they have chosen, but it is far from inflexible.  Moveover, the essential building blocks of the faith—defusing the ‘immortality’ of the soul, establishing the non-Trinitarian nature of God, the reason as to why he allows suffering and evil, along with the Name that he says he wants sanctified—these things have been firmly in place for over a century.
    The Russian brothers are doing very well, thank you very much—“in no way being frightened by [their] opponents. This very thing is a proof of destruction for them, but of salvation for you; and this is from God.” (Philippians 1:28)
    “Surely the people are but green grass. The green grass dries up, The blossom withers, But the word of our God endures forever.” (Isaiah 40:8) So. Dvorkin thinks he will kill off the green grass, like a dog peeing on it? Time will tell. So far his dream is not coming true.

    photo: persecution 2, by dr zoidberg 
  17. Thanks
    JW Insider got a reaction from Juan Rivera in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    Most Witnesses obviously want to live peaceful Christian lives and conduct ourselves in a way that pleases Jehovah God and Jesus Christ. None of us really want the job of being responsible to take a specific position on all doctrinal matters and setting priorities for organizational direction in our overall global ministry. But we can be thankful that among Christians, there will always be a few that will take the lead in those heavy responsibilities.
    The very desire to take the lead in such matters seems like an assignment that only someone who is very brave or very foolhardy would take. It seems that, from a worldly perspective, only the most haughty among us would reach out for such an important job. Yet, we know some of these brothers very well from either personal acquaintance, or perhaps they were Circuit and District Overseers in our congregations. Perhaps we worked alongside some of them in a Branch Office. We get to know their personalities from presentations, speeches, and broadcasts. We see them interact with each other at some events.
    All in all, the majority of them seem to be good, God-fearing, humble men who want to do what is right, the same as the rest of us. We don't get the idea that any of them "schemed" to get to this position. We know that the guidelines for elders apply to them just as they apply to congregation elders. And it's my opinion, but I see a certain stability and faithfulness to worthy goals among all of them. 
    Now it's easy to say good things about these men, and that's my point. When these men were mostly chosen only from a certain similar mold, there was not a large "pool" for these "gifts in men" to be chosen from. In the past, most had been chosen from a limited bureaucratic background. At the point when there were 17 GB members alive at the same time, most (but not all) had the ability to give a good talk, but at least half of them were seriously lacking in Biblical expertise, and at least half of them had very little experience even in the door-to-door field ministry for the last 40 years of their lives. We should not have been surprised that certain kinds of flaws showed up among these men so that several were dismissed, and a lot of politics and scheming was known to go on among those who remained.
    But the current group, especially after the death of Theodore Jaracz, have been chosen from a much wider pool of candidates. These men have made more progress in the last 20 years than in the previous 100 years. They are managing a much bigger, and smoother operation, with millions and millions more persons in their care. Doctrinal changes over the last 20 years have been steady and clearly beneficial overall. The quality of the publications and the website has improved greatly. It's reach is enormous. 
    I've already stated my opinion that the GB are not the equivalent of the "faithful slave" from a Biblical standpoint. But that's not the point of discussion here. These men, the GB, who have taken the lead for doctrinal and prioritized the organizational and ministerial direction have taken on an important and necessary assignment. They admit that they aren't perfect. Of course, that statement is meaningless, because such a statement almost always is used with the intention of meaning "perfect, for all practical purposes." But they don't leave it at that. They admit that they have made serious errors in doctrine and leadership. they admit that the spiritual food they produce and distribute is not always perfect.
    So, with that said, I think one way of looking at the overall picture is to see these men in the position of keeping order. They take the lead at the "highest" level, not because they think that you must think that all these doctrines are perfect. They do it because it keeps order and harmony. They do it by taking a stand on certain doctrinal matters and setting organizational priorities. Sure, they may do some of this by majority vote, but ultimately they make choices. This is part of remaining organized in any organization and not falling into chaos. Going off in many directions is inefficient. Even trying a certain direction that proves untenable has a certain value if it's caught early enough, and there is humility to change.
    Taking a stand means that we will sometimes discover we took the wrong stand, but it also has an advantage in making our beliefs transparent. If a doctrinal stand is taken, our thinking is clearer on it, and contradictions show up more easily. It would be easy to be 100% accurate by taking a less dogmatic stand on many things. But this makes it harder to test whether we are thinking correctly and reasonably on some of our beliefs.
    I think that it could be like those logic puzzles, like they do for LSAT tests, where you get 5 to 10 clues, and have to figure out, for example, where everyone lives and what they do, what they drink, and the color of their house:
    Bill is a plumber who drinks whiskey and lives in the green house that is next to a corner house. John is not a carpenter, and he drinks soda and lives in either a red or blue house that is two houses from Sally's house. etc. etc. etc. Sometimes you get to a point where you just need to take a stand and say that John must be in a blue house, for example, even if you don't know for sure, so that you can properly test if it works. (Actually, Sudoku was probably a better example, come to think of it.)
    So, we can have doctrinal claims that are still in the middle of such testing. We took a stand, and it clarifies our position so that it can be more clearly tested. It can work for both trivial and important matters like: whether Moses wrote all of the first five books of the Bible himself, or whether Galatians was written prior to 1 Corinthians, or whether the "other sheep" are Gentiles or "spiritual Gentiles."
    If we (as an organization) take a stand, it should be faster to get to a point where we can take a consistent stand on all important matters of doctrine and teaching. This assumes that haughtiness and love of tradition don't get in the way of change. And that gets back to having the right kinds of personalities taking the lead.
  18. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Srecko Sostar in THE TRINITY   
    I am hoping that you are "aware" how no one is Immune on this. I, You or They. :))
  19. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Srecko Sostar in THE TRINITY   
    And I really do not care of what they follow,
    Upps, well by such feelings in your heart, you expressed in your own words .......... reveals a lot to me, and maybe to others who will read your text too. 
  20. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Anna in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    A few years ago I was in Pittsburgh visiting one of my husband's relatives and since we were right there, at the "nucleus" of where it all "began" we went to see Russell's grave, saw the Pyramid (which actually is not his tombstone as some think) and we also went to the Allegheny congregation. The brothers there regularly do unofficial tours of Russell sites if any visitor asks about it. I mentioned to the brother about pyramidology, he laughed, a little uncomfortably, and said "we don't talk about that". I understand it's a little bit of an embarrassment, but if you know the facts about it, it is nothing bad, and I would say it's quite understandable for men of God at that time who were searching for truth to have looked into all kinds of things along the route. It becomes a problem when opposers twist or embellish facts and make it look like Russell was into the occult and freemasonry etc. So in my opinion it would be better to explain where Russell was coming from, rather than trying to bury or ignore it. But, and this is the sad thing, perhaps the brother in question really didn't know the facts, and this is where the cult thinking comes in. You are a follower despite some unexplained beliefs. But perhap's I am doing the brother an injustice, perhaps he knew all about  Russell's "theories", but just couldn't be bothered to go into it....
  21. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Anna in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    Really? Everything possible must be tried in order to make a cult out of the U.S.Marines in as short a time as possible. It includes the idea that they can claim authority from Almighty God, Jehovah. And notice the "Ezekiel" video playing, too.
     

    I have a little more respect for the ones who are not participating.
  22. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from JOHN BUTLER in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    I should just point out that this is another type of dishonesty you engage in frequently. Whenever you are asked to point out the place or occasion which induced you to come up with this false claim, you have always changed the subject. You know that I have never made a reference your mother in any way, shape or form. Any further attempt to promote such dishonesty will be met with more honest words from me, no matter how much the truth hurts. 😀
  23. Haha
    JW Insider got a reaction from JOHN BUTLER in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    I know them about as well as you know them. Doesn't mean I agree with their conclusions. If someone is serious about their research, I'll take it seriously, too. I called the WTS with questions on several occasions when working through the claims being made by outsiders about the JW era in Hitler's Germany, and both Brother H.Peloyan and Brother J.Pellechia said they didn't know the answers, exactly, but pointed me to a book by M.James Penton, with a reminder that although he answers the questions I had, that this doesn't mean we need to subscribe to all of his conclusions. I agree with them, and appreciated their honesty. I bought Penton's book about Jehovah's Witnesses in the Third Reich specifically on the recommendation of Brother Pellechia.
    I think you are at least 100 times more "devoted" to everything I say than Anna.
    I agree with the Watchtower which also has said many times that we should challenge the Watchtower teachings to see if they speak the truth. If you disagree, then you are simply disagreeing with the Watchtower. That should not be a problem to anyone, if you have good Biblical reasons, but in this case the Watchtower agrees with the Bible.
    If that were true, you should have been able to show me at least one case where I did that. So far, you've shown no evidence of any misrepresentation.
    Remember, however, that this is about what the Watchtower publications have had to say. I have noticed, for example, that the Watchtower, for a time, confused the end of the Gentile Times with October 1914, then posited dates as late as October 1915, then August 1914, then back to October 1914, and then in the 1920's the Watchtower began presenting material that claimed Russell had made an announcement at Bethel on October 1st, then October 4th, then October 2nd. However, I had never noticed one of the Watchtower quotations that was pictured (in context) in the material that @Noble Berean presented. Where I can learn something, I'm always happy to learn.
    That's because I recognized instantly that you were flat out wrong about @Matthew9969 being the same as @Noble Berean. There was absolutely no evidence for it and a lot of evidence against it. However, I think I know exactly why you made the mistake in thinking so yourself. If you're interested, I can help you understand.
    I insinuated exactly the opposite. That this cultish behavior was already generally cleaned up way back in Rutherford's time, with lingering influences from some who never seemed to completely cleanse themselves from the ideologies of that period.
    All you have to do is point out one of these falsehoods or dishonesties and I will immediately change my mind about it and apologize. As I said, you've had four years of opportunities. I'm sure I've made several mistakes in that time period.
    (Proverbs 10:19) 19 In the abundance of words there does not fail to be transgression,. . .  
  24. Thanks
    JW Insider got a reaction from Juan Rivera in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    Truth means "the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." Not whitewashed, partial truth, and not just the "spin" that tickles our ears.
    That's everyone's own business whether they would rather know the whole truth, or ignore the truth, or assume that others can and should prioritize for them what they need to know as "the truth."
    But, for me, I think we would be hypocrites to sing songs like we just did this last week. (Make the Truth Your Own), the comments on Colossians 2:8, etc., etc. Most of our meetings contain small reminders that we need to "love" truth. It shouldn't matter where it takes us. Actually, it should matter. And it should matter, even more, that some people don't want us to go where it takes us. 
    It's difficult for most of us to admit that the "Watchtower religion" has been a cult in the past. (In the more pejorative sense of the word.) The Watchtower publicly admits that this is true, claiming that many of the Bible Students were cult worshipers of Charles Taze Russell. We know that Rutherford said he determined to rid the Watchtower of the personality cult that worshiped Russell. He called this "creature worship" because they were worshiping a man. But we also know that, for many years, Rutherford himself was part of the same cult, and even bragged in 1916 that Russell's enemies would soon have to come and "worship at his feet."
    But, in general, I think Rutherford finally did a pretty good job replacing the cult members with persons who were looking for practical Bible truth, and not just for a man to do their thinking for them. But many persons, even Watchtower writers, have confused God and the earthly organization. And, this idea might surprise many, but I think that F.W.Franz gave evidence that he remained as a "cult" member until he died. He loved being seen as the the primary Rabbi --The ORACLE, they called him-- and it went to his head as he tried for his entire career to revive interest in dates, chronology, numerology, Jubilees, new truths (prophetic interpretations), parallel dispensations, the pre-eminence of the truly anointed, etc. I think his influence created cult members out of several ordinary Witnesses. I believe that my great-grandfather (from even before F.Franz was at Bethel) was a "cult" member in the organization until the 1960's when he died, even though my other relatives were (and are) regular JWs, and not cult members. I'm pretty sure that C.Woodworth was a cult member until the 1950's when he died. I know that when they searched out documentation and photos for the Proclaimer's book, they were astounded at the "cult" material still available in Witnesses' archives, including F.Franz himself.
    And many Witnesses, today, are tempted to look at 8 men exactly the way that Bible Students looked at Russell. The way we defend or dismiss the material from our past history can be an indicator as to whether we too have succumbed to cult thinking. Even the way we defend current material that came out of long-standing traditions of the past can also be an indicator. I can talk to Mormons and Seventh Day Adventists for hours and recognize almost immediately which ones are in a "cult" and which ones aren't by the manner in which they defend Ellen G White or Joseph Smith when glaring problems are pointed out.
    (Job 31:26-28) 26 If I saw the sun shining Or the moon moving in its splendor; 27 And my heart was secretly enticed, And my mouth kissed my hand in worship of them; 28 Then that would be an error deserving punishment by the judges, For I would have denied the true God above.
  25. Like
    JW Insider got a reaction from Juan Rivera in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    I appear to be behind the times here.
    Mike & Kim I know of from a video I watched of them on YouTube, where they seemed a bit too silly and flippant (perhaps even tipsy?). But their information was lousy, and they were promoting this idea that elders were destroying necessary CSA evidence, when they were really misinterpreting "good practice" counsel from the WTS about record-keeping.  Maybe they have done their homework on other videos, but I won't waste my time because I don't trust them based on the random one I watched. P. Asare I have never heard of. John Redwood is related to John Cedars, who is somehow related to Lloyd Evans, as I saw these names on JW Survey. I downloaded that site to read later, but I did read all the headlines from the site, just never got back to it. Average Joe I have never heard of. Bill Bowen is the former elder who put his face behind "Silent Lambs" which intended to expose CSA crimes among JWs. I understand that Barbara Anderson worked with him to get it started and get it named but that Barbara Anderson didn't trust his motives or his personality and backed away from it. (I have read much of Anderson's site, and the name comes up often when I search Google on several different historical and CSA topics.) WiFiBandit sounds very familiar but I do not know from where. (I suspect this is a Jehovahs-Witness forum participant. I don't care much about the work of most ex-JWs for purposes of testing their claims, or defense against their claims, unless I'm convinced that they have done their homework, and are not prone to taking things out of context. For this reason, I have purchased 2 books from M.J.Penton, 1 from C.O.Jonnson, and 2 from E.C.Gruss. (I also have two books from R.Franz that I picked up online as free pdfs. I also picked up a book called Apostles of Denial from archive.org, which is also from E.C.Gruss.)
    Otherwise, I pretty much ignore current online sources because I think they tend to get their info from other sources anyway, and misinterpret or misrepresent what they said. For this reason I won't bother with those who don't do their own work, when it comes to claims we should test for ourselves.
    Compared to people who appear to have gone to original sources and documented their work, I'd guess that most of these online personalities are probably just repeating things. Any of them, including the authors I mentioned, might also have had bad motives. We should expect that this taints their own conclusions. But it's worth looking at their work, especially if a lot of it is true, regardless of their own motives or conclusions. Perhaps we'll look at the same evidence and come to a different conclusion.
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