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JW Insider

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  1. Downvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Foreigner in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    With the above as the basis, we can now begin to see an issue with the explanation.
    After arriving in 1914, Jesus was supposed to have appointed the GB as the FDS in 1919. But the original parable is about Jesus appointing the FDS and then departing for an unknown amount of time.
    If Jesus arrived in 1914, and appointed the FDS in 1919, then when did he depart?  Where did he depart to? For a time, after 1916, Rutherford got very quiet about the 40 years of harvest running from 1874 to 1914, and, in fact, he changed those 40 years, and made them run from 1878 to 1918.  At the time, recall, 1914 was still considered an embarrassing, failed expectation. It had not yet been tied to any invisible presence [still 1874] or the start of Christ's Kingdom [still 1878], or the casting down of Satan. And the "first resurrection" was not yet tied to 1918; it was still 1881. So Rutherford would soon begin to speak of Jesus having "arrived" in 1918 for the inspection and cleansing of the Temple. In spite of a great European War in 1914, it was pretty clear to Rutherford that nothing Biblically significant had happened in 1914. That was supposed to be the final VISIBLE manifestation of an invisible presence that started 40 years earlier. After inspection, 1919 would be the new fresh start. In the early 1920's, Rutherford reaffirmed the chronology, including 1874, 1878, 1881, and 1914 in preparation for the sureness of his 1925 prediction. But he also said that there was more proof for 1925 than there had been for 1914.
    So now we move onto the details. Luke says there are four classes of slave:
    Faithful and Discreet who will be appointed over all belongings on the Master's arrival Unfaithful Slave who will be beaten with greatest severity Understanding Slave who didn't get ready and is beaten with many strokes Misunderstanding Slave who gets beaten with few strokes. This of course matches the parable of the talents where a master makes appointments to various servants, and a NWT cross-reference points us to Matthew 25:
    (Matthew 25:14-30) . . .“For it is just like a man about to travel abroad who summoned his slaves and entrusted his belongings to them. 15 He gave five talents to one, two to another, and one to still another, to each according to his own ability, and he went abroad. . . . 19 “After a long time, the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. 20 So the one who had received the five talents came forward and brought five additional talents, . . . 21 His master said to him: ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You were faithful over a few things. I will appoint you over many things. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 Next the one who had received the two talents . . . 23 His master said to him: ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You were faithful over a few things. I will appoint you over many things. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 “Finally the slave who had received the one talent . . . In reply his master said to him: ‘Wicked and sluggish slave, . . . 29 For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance. But the one who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 30 And throw the good-for-nothing slave out into the darkness outside.. . .
    It ends with an idea similar to the way Luke ends the parable of the faithful and wise steward:
    (Luke 12:48) . . .Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him.
    In fact, we have a situation in several parables (marriage feast, where the idea is always that the Master makes an appointment over some of his belongings to his servants, and then the master departs to travel abroad, and then the master returns (at a time they didn't expect) and the Master judges those slaves.
    Another short one is in Mark (the doorkeeper), where Jesus gives authority to his slaves, to each one his work.
    (Mark 13:34) It is like a man traveling abroad who left his house and gave the authority to his slaves, to each one his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to keep on the watch. 35 Keep on the watch, therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether late in the day or at midnight or before dawn or early in the morning, 36 in order that when he comes suddenly, he does not find you sleeping.
    Back when Jesus departed in 33 to travel abroad, these parables made more sense. After all he assigned persons like Peter to "feed his little sheep" in 33 CE and then departed. He then returned in 1914 or 1918 for an inspection (of the Temple) and judged a group as ready for a greater assignment. But now Jesus arrives in 1914, to makes an assignment, but remains present to arrive later to make a judgment and greater appointments over all his belongings. Obviously the whole thing was turned into a mess in order to twist 1914 and 1919 into the mix, but it doesn't work anymore, because Jesus never departs after making the assignments.
    And of course, in the Watchtower version, we have now eliminated the evil slave as a non-existent hypothetical, even though Jesus always considered two three or four or even more slaves, each one according to his work. The Watchtower avoids Luke's version altogether because it might require thinking about who is represented by the non-existent hypothetical second slave who gets punished severely, and the third non-existent hypothetical slave who gets many strokes, and the fourth non-existent hypothetical slave that gets few strokes.
    But here's the most indiscreet part:
    No one is declared the "faithful and wise servant" until after that judgment by Jesus. None of them were supposed to presumptuously claim that they were already to be identified as that slave and that any chance of becoming evil or punished is only hypothetical or non-existent. It's up to Jesus to make that judgment when he returns.
    And of course this points up another major flaw when we claim that this final judgment as faithful results in appointment over all his belongings. At this point, the Watchtower explains that we are no longer talking about the FDS anymore, but the time when ALL the anointed, the GB along with the other 143,966 anointed, are equally appointed over all his belongings at the same time. (With no concern over who those other classes of faithful, less faithful, and unfaithful servants might have been.)
  2. Downvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Foreigner in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    This is, in fact, a pretty easy question to answer. You did hit the nail on the head, as it were, with the definition of "discreet."
    Here's where we can begin to see why.
    The primary Watchtower that changed our current definition of the FDS was back in July 15, 2013. The article claimed that the FDS was now specifically and uniquely associated with the Governing Body. There we see the following, which I am including again here, not for you, but mostly for those who might not have read it carefully.
    *** w13 7/15 p. 20 par. 3 “Who Really Is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?” ***
    In the past, our publications have said the following: At Pentecost 33 C.E., Jesus appointed the faithful slave over his domestics. The slave represents all anointed Christians on earth as a group at any one time since then. The domestics refer to the same anointed ones as individuals. In 1919, Jesus appointed the faithful slave “over all his belongings”—all his earthly Kingdom interests.
    The first part of that old view goes back to Russell: that all of the anointed made up the faithful slave. Russell kept that view from 1879 to until about 1897. The assumption was that they would be appointed over all his belongings at the time of their resurrection. Then, in 1897, Russell discreetly published an article stating that the slave was only one person, one individual. Then, very indiscreetly, began publishing letters and articles that addressed himself as that faithful and wise servant (FDS), allowed himself to be referred to like this at conventions, and began referring to the Watchtower publications as "food at the proper time" or "meat in due season."
    Watchtower publications have said that Russell personally admitted to being the FDS in private. The publications have also stated that, when asked, he would sometimes respond: "Some say the Society is [that servant] . . . some say that I am."
    An attempt to apply another faithful steward parable to Rutherford began shortly after Russell died. But Rutherford himself continued to teach that Russell had personally been that faithful and wise servant. 
    That didn't last more than a decade, though, because Rutherford went back to Russell's original view that all the 144,000 made up the faithful slave class, and that they fed one another, including themselves, as the domestics. Later it was added that 1919 had been the year that they were appointed over all Christ's belongings. By the 1950's, the "governing body" as the representative officers of the Watch Tower Society began associating themselves more directly with the work of that "faithful and discreet slave."
    *** w58 1/15 pp. 45-47 pars. 17-23 Overseers in Apocalyptic Times ***
    Can it still be true that the holy spirit appoints overseers over the congregations of true Christians today? Since the spirit is God’s invisible active force and is silent and unfeelable, how could we be sure that the appointing of overseers is by it today? The Holy Bible, God’s Word, makes this certain.. . .  Since 1919 God’s organization has risen up to let the light of his glory shine amid the gross darkness of this world, and the time has come for the fulfillment of his promise: “I will . . . make thy chiefs peaceful and thine overseers righteous.” (Isa. 60:1, 2, 17, AS; LXX; Thomson; Bagster) We are living also in the time of final fulfillment of the prophecy to which the apostle Peter referred on the day of Pentecost, namely: “It shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit.” (Joel 2:28, 29, AS; Acts 2:16-18) We should therefore expect the spirit’s activity to include appointing overseers.
    19 As in the days of the apostles, the Christian flock of Jehovah God has over it a visible governing body. It acts for and in expression of the “faithful and discreet slave” whom Jesus Christ has appointed since coming into his kingdom in the heavens in 1914. When warning his apostles about his coming for the judgment of his followers at an unknown hour in the time of the end of this old world, Jesus said: “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.” (Matt. 24:45-47) Since 1919 this “faithful and discreet slave,” who is a composite person made up of all anointed Christian joint heirs of Jesus Christ, has been taking care of “all his belongings” on earth. The slave has been faithfully giving out the spiritual, Biblical food at the proper time, so that there is no spiritual famine among the Christian witnesses of Jehovah. To make this “faithful and discreet slave” class equal to their heavy responsibilities in these last days, God through Christ has poured out his spirit upon them in these last days, in complete fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy.
    20 The governing body of the “faithful and discreet slave” class is taken from the members of this same anointed, spirit-filled class. By God’s spirit it is functioning. So, then, when the appointment of overseers is made by this governing body in harmony with the requirements laid down for overseers, it is really by the spirit that such overseers are appointed, although through human intermediaries. As the modern history of Jehovah’s witnesses shows, this is specially true since 1932, when the system of elective elders and deacons [ministerial servants] was done away with in their congregations.
    21 The governing body of mature members of the “faithful and discreet slave” class always seeks the guidance of God’s holy spirit in appointing responsible men in the congregations overseers, together with their assistants, the ministerial servants. They do not act according to any personal favoritism or any bias. . . .
    22 When, now, the governing body designates overseers that meet those plainly stated requirements, it is really the holy spirit that leads to the appointing of such overseers; it is really the holy spirit that makes such overseers. This fact becomes more evident when we note that it is also the fullness of the indwelling of the holy spirit in the candidate for the office of overseer that influences his appointment. The candidate must show that he is filled with the spirit by the way he conducts himself and his family (if he has one). . . .
    23 In consideration of the spirit’s fruitage produced by the candidate and in harmony with the written requirements set out in the Holy Scriptures written by men under the operation of the holy spirit, the governing body acts, being itself moved by the holy spirit for which it prays to God that it may guide the governing body. In every respect, then, the spirit of God comes to the fore in the matter of appointing overseers. So today as well as in Paul’s day it may be said that the holy spirit appoints overseers over the flock of God that he purchased “with the blood of his own Son.” (Acts 20:28, Schonfield) If in course of time any overseer turns out bad, we must remember that even Judas Iscariot, whom Jesus himself selected to be an apostolic overseer, turned out bad, betraying his own Overseer, the Chief Shepherd, to his enemies to be killed.
    I included a little extra from the context of the earlier Watchtower as foundation for discussing some related aspects such as the actual meaning of spirit-led organization, etc. But the main point is to keep in mind the two primary views most of us have held during our lifetime as Witnesses:
    (1950's-2013) The GB, especially since 1919, acts for and in expression of the FDS, which has included all the anointed since 33 CE., but which has been appointed over all Christ's belongings since 1919. (2013-present) The GB, since 1919, is now the same thing as the FDS, which no longer includes all the anointed, but only the GB, and has only been appointed since 1919, but will not be appointed over all Christ's belongings until a future time when all of the anointed are in heaven.
  3. Like
    JW Insider got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    Sorry to disappoint. I usually give up on explaining things concisely at about the time I notice that I am already up to 20 paragraphs.
    But I meant that there have already been several pages of explanations in this thread and others, going right back to your original question. The very fact that the GB produces contradictory statements about themselves, which are not based on scripture, that was what made me say that the GB cannot be the same as the FDS. A GB that declares itself to be the FDS is already "publishing a flawed argument" "skating close to the edge" and "in no man's land" if I may borrow some verbiage from Outta Here.
    This goes back to a WT quote that Noble Berean provided, back on page 5 or so:
    "[A mature christian] does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and "the faithful and discreet slave." (w01 8/1 p.14)  
    And a similar one here:
    *** w04 10/1 p. 7 “The Meek Shall Inherit the Earth”—How? ***
    One who is meek humbly accepts God’s standards in all aspects of his personal life; he does not insist on going by his own views or by other people’s opinions. He is also teachable, willing to be taught by Jehovah. The psalmist David wrote: “[Jehovah] will cause the meek ones to walk in his judicial decision, and he will teach the meek ones his way.”—Psalm 25:9; Proverbs 3:5, 6.
    We now see that it has been admitted that the GB have sometimes been advocating or insisting on their own views. Several of these views have been "false" as they have now admitted. It is clear that in some cases these have merely been based on other people's opinions, often their own predecessors on the GB. They have sometimes forgotten to be meek. Although they admit that some of the teachings and direction has been incorrect, they have sometimes forgotten the meekness and humility that should come from these experiences and continue to insist that others should have "complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by . . . the faithful and discreet slave."
    Well that is the same as saying that we should have complete confidence in views and opinions that are prone to error, potentially false and uninspired, just because they have been mixed in with truths revealed from Jehovah through his Son, Jesus Christ. 
    But with true humility, faithfulness and discretion it doesn't have to be this way.
    The GB, as overseers (elders), are reaching out for an oversight position over the extended worldwide congregations, and are therefore reaching out for a fine work. It is a very valuable and useful office of oversight. And through it they can preside over various questions and concerns, while considering input and issues from all over the world. But in any position of privilege or heavy responsibility there is a danger that Jesus clearly warned about. If we take Jesus' words seriously, we will be on the watch for the very examples that Jesus warned about. We know that the GB consider themselves to be in a position much like that of the original 12 apostles, or that of the "NT" Bible writers, and the Bible tells us what such positions can lead to: the desire for control, power, prominence, leadership, and even obedience.
    (Matthew 19:27-20:27) . . .Then Peter said in reply: “Look! We have left all things and followed you; what, then, will there be for us?” . . .[Jesus answered] you who have followed me will sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit everlasting life.
    30 “But many who are first will be last and the last first. . . .‘These last men put in one hour’s work; still you made them equal to us who bore the burden of the day and the burning heat!’ 13 But he said in reply to one of them, ‘Fellow, I do you no wrong. You agreed with me for a de·narʹi·us, did you not? 14 Take what is yours and go. I want to give to this last one the same as to you. . . .  Or is your eye envious because I am good?’ 16 In this way, the last ones will be first, and the first ones last.” . . .
    20 Then the mother of the sons of Zebʹe·dee approached him with her sons, . . . .  “Give the word that these two sons of mine may sit down, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your Kingdom.”  . . . 23 He said to them: “You will indeed drink my cup, but to sit down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”
    24 When the ten others heard about it, they became indignant at the two brothers. 25 But Jesus called them to him and said: “You know that the rulers of the nations lord it over them and the great men wield authority over them. 26 This must not be the way among you; but whoever wants to become great among you must be your minister, 27 and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave.
    I think there is a tendency for all of us to want to read into the first century congregation a kind of human authority structure among the apostles and older men of Jerusalem that just wasn't there. The apostles remaining in Jerusalem prior to the writing of the "NT" has allready served its purpose, and is not intended as an ongoing model of apostolic succession in the last days. Because we are only human, we think that the hierarchical system under Moses, and therefore the "seat of Moses" was intended to continue into Christian times. We are therefore anxious to see any criticizers as "Korah vs Moses." We don't have the faith that true Christianity can thrive without a group of men wielding authority. (Just as Israel didn't think they could compete with nations around them without a king.)
    We tend not to see this wielding of authority as a problem, because MOST of what the GB relays and publishes is perfectly acceptable. But this lax attitude toward what Jesus warned us about can result in a very dangerous situation for Christians. We do not mature as we should to stand on our own, because it's so much easier to just accept humans as leaders, and accept them as vicars of Christ. Paul pointed out the folly of this very attitude toward other humans who think they should be more than what even the "apostles" were, and who want to be more than just faithful and discreet "stewards." They will tend to go beyond the things written; to want honor, and to judge, and to govern.
    (1 Corinthians 4:2-10) 2 In this regard, what is expected of stewards is that they be found faithful. 3 Now to me it is of very little importance to be examined by you or by a human tribunal. In fact, I do not even examine myself. 4 For I am not conscious of anything against myself. But by this I am not proved righteous; the one who examines me is Jehovah. 5 Therefore, do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes. He will bring the secret things of darkness to light and make known the intentions of the hearts, and then each one will receive his praise from God. 6 Now, brothers, these things I have applied to myself and A·polʹlos for your good, that through us you may learn the rule: “Do not go beyond the things that are written,” so that you may not be puffed up with pride, favoring one against the other. 7 For who makes you different from another? Indeed, what do you have that you did not receive? If, in fact, you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not receive it? 8 Are you already satisfied? Are you already rich? Have you begun ruling as kings without us? I really wish that you had begun ruling as kings, so that we also might rule with you as kings. 9 For it seems to me that God has put us the apostles last on exhibition as men condemned to death, because we have become a theatrical spectacle to the world, and to angels and to men. 10 We are fools because of Christ, but you are discreet in Christ; we are weak, but you are strong; you are held in honor, but we in dishonor. These men wanted to be "guardians" when Paul indicated that the entire worldwide congregation were their/our guardians:
    (1 Corinthians 4:15) . . .For though you may have 10,000 guardians in Christ. . . (Romans 14:12) . . .So, then, each of us will render an account for himself to God. (Romans 14:4) 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Jehovah can make him stand. (Galatians 6:4, 5) 4 But let each one examine his own actions, and then he will have cause for rejoicing in regard to himself alone, and not in comparison with the other person. 5 For each one will carry his own load.
  4. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from James Thomas Rook Jr. in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    Sorry to disappoint. I usually give up on explaining things concisely at about the time I notice that I am already up to 20 paragraphs.
    But I meant that there have already been several pages of explanations in this thread and others, going right back to your original question. The very fact that the GB produces contradictory statements about themselves, which are not based on scripture, that was what made me say that the GB cannot be the same as the FDS. A GB that declares itself to be the FDS is already "publishing a flawed argument" "skating close to the edge" and "in no man's land" if I may borrow some verbiage from Outta Here.
    This goes back to a WT quote that Noble Berean provided, back on page 5 or so:
    "[A mature christian] does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and "the faithful and discreet slave." (w01 8/1 p.14)  
    And a similar one here:
    *** w04 10/1 p. 7 “The Meek Shall Inherit the Earth”—How? ***
    One who is meek humbly accepts God’s standards in all aspects of his personal life; he does not insist on going by his own views or by other people’s opinions. He is also teachable, willing to be taught by Jehovah. The psalmist David wrote: “[Jehovah] will cause the meek ones to walk in his judicial decision, and he will teach the meek ones his way.”—Psalm 25:9; Proverbs 3:5, 6.
    We now see that it has been admitted that the GB have sometimes been advocating or insisting on their own views. Several of these views have been "false" as they have now admitted. It is clear that in some cases these have merely been based on other people's opinions, often their own predecessors on the GB. They have sometimes forgotten to be meek. Although they admit that some of the teachings and direction has been incorrect, they have sometimes forgotten the meekness and humility that should come from these experiences and continue to insist that others should have "complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by . . . the faithful and discreet slave."
    Well that is the same as saying that we should have complete confidence in views and opinions that are prone to error, potentially false and uninspired, just because they have been mixed in with truths revealed from Jehovah through his Son, Jesus Christ. 
    But with true humility, faithfulness and discretion it doesn't have to be this way.
    The GB, as overseers (elders), are reaching out for an oversight position over the extended worldwide congregations, and are therefore reaching out for a fine work. It is a very valuable and useful office of oversight. And through it they can preside over various questions and concerns, while considering input and issues from all over the world. But in any position of privilege or heavy responsibility there is a danger that Jesus clearly warned about. If we take Jesus' words seriously, we will be on the watch for the very examples that Jesus warned about. We know that the GB consider themselves to be in a position much like that of the original 12 apostles, or that of the "NT" Bible writers, and the Bible tells us what such positions can lead to: the desire for control, power, prominence, leadership, and even obedience.
    (Matthew 19:27-20:27) . . .Then Peter said in reply: “Look! We have left all things and followed you; what, then, will there be for us?” . . .[Jesus answered] you who have followed me will sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit everlasting life.
    30 “But many who are first will be last and the last first. . . .‘These last men put in one hour’s work; still you made them equal to us who bore the burden of the day and the burning heat!’ 13 But he said in reply to one of them, ‘Fellow, I do you no wrong. You agreed with me for a de·narʹi·us, did you not? 14 Take what is yours and go. I want to give to this last one the same as to you. . . .  Or is your eye envious because I am good?’ 16 In this way, the last ones will be first, and the first ones last.” . . .
    20 Then the mother of the sons of Zebʹe·dee approached him with her sons, . . . .  “Give the word that these two sons of mine may sit down, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your Kingdom.”  . . . 23 He said to them: “You will indeed drink my cup, but to sit down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”
    24 When the ten others heard about it, they became indignant at the two brothers. 25 But Jesus called them to him and said: “You know that the rulers of the nations lord it over them and the great men wield authority over them. 26 This must not be the way among you; but whoever wants to become great among you must be your minister, 27 and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave.
    I think there is a tendency for all of us to want to read into the first century congregation a kind of human authority structure among the apostles and older men of Jerusalem that just wasn't there. The apostles remaining in Jerusalem prior to the writing of the "NT" has allready served its purpose, and is not intended as an ongoing model of apostolic succession in the last days. Because we are only human, we think that the hierarchical system under Moses, and therefore the "seat of Moses" was intended to continue into Christian times. We are therefore anxious to see any criticizers as "Korah vs Moses." We don't have the faith that true Christianity can thrive without a group of men wielding authority. (Just as Israel didn't think they could compete with nations around them without a king.)
    We tend not to see this wielding of authority as a problem, because MOST of what the GB relays and publishes is perfectly acceptable. But this lax attitude toward what Jesus warned us about can result in a very dangerous situation for Christians. We do not mature as we should to stand on our own, because it's so much easier to just accept humans as leaders, and accept them as vicars of Christ. Paul pointed out the folly of this very attitude toward other humans who think they should be more than what even the "apostles" were, and who want to be more than just faithful and discreet "stewards." They will tend to go beyond the things written; to want honor, and to judge, and to govern.
    (1 Corinthians 4:2-10) 2 In this regard, what is expected of stewards is that they be found faithful. 3 Now to me it is of very little importance to be examined by you or by a human tribunal. In fact, I do not even examine myself. 4 For I am not conscious of anything against myself. But by this I am not proved righteous; the one who examines me is Jehovah. 5 Therefore, do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes. He will bring the secret things of darkness to light and make known the intentions of the hearts, and then each one will receive his praise from God. 6 Now, brothers, these things I have applied to myself and A·polʹlos for your good, that through us you may learn the rule: “Do not go beyond the things that are written,” so that you may not be puffed up with pride, favoring one against the other. 7 For who makes you different from another? Indeed, what do you have that you did not receive? If, in fact, you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not receive it? 8 Are you already satisfied? Are you already rich? Have you begun ruling as kings without us? I really wish that you had begun ruling as kings, so that we also might rule with you as kings. 9 For it seems to me that God has put us the apostles last on exhibition as men condemned to death, because we have become a theatrical spectacle to the world, and to angels and to men. 10 We are fools because of Christ, but you are discreet in Christ; we are weak, but you are strong; you are held in honor, but we in dishonor. These men wanted to be "guardians" when Paul indicated that the entire worldwide congregation were their/our guardians:
    (1 Corinthians 4:15) . . .For though you may have 10,000 guardians in Christ. . . (Romans 14:12) . . .So, then, each of us will render an account for himself to God. (Romans 14:4) 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Jehovah can make him stand. (Galatians 6:4, 5) 4 But let each one examine his own actions, and then he will have cause for rejoicing in regard to himself alone, and not in comparison with the other person. 5 For each one will carry his own load.
  5. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Evacuated in Do jw's believe in a rapture?   
    Perhaps it is. I appreciate the references but I have a more than sneaky feeling that we just do not know what the mechanics of this transference of life really entail. I have no problem at all in accepting the fact that these things have occurred or will occur, but the attempted explanations of how I find inadequate.
    There are a number of instances.
    Enoch's transference so as not to "see death". The materialisation of fully fleshly human bodies by spirit creatures The restoration of life to a corpse The transfer of Jesus from heaven to earth, from spirit to human form The resurrection of Jesus from human death to spirit life The 3rd heaven experience of Paul The resurrection of humans from human death to spirit life in the heavens The instantaneous transference of humans from human life on earth to spirit life in heaven The resurrection of humans from death to human life on earth across the passage of time The releasing of Satan from the abyss. "Above my pay grade" is the best I can do with these matters up to now. And I am happy with that. 
  6. Downvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Foreigner in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    Sorry to disappoint. I usually give up on explaining things concisely at about the time I notice that I am already up to 20 paragraphs.
    But I meant that there have already been several pages of explanations in this thread and others, going right back to your original question. The very fact that the GB produces contradictory statements about themselves, which are not based on scripture, that was what made me say that the GB cannot be the same as the FDS. A GB that declares itself to be the FDS is already "publishing a flawed argument" "skating close to the edge" and "in no man's land" if I may borrow some verbiage from Outta Here.
    This goes back to a WT quote that Noble Berean provided, back on page 5 or so:
    "[A mature christian] does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and "the faithful and discreet slave." (w01 8/1 p.14)  
    And a similar one here:
    *** w04 10/1 p. 7 “The Meek Shall Inherit the Earth”—How? ***
    One who is meek humbly accepts God’s standards in all aspects of his personal life; he does not insist on going by his own views or by other people’s opinions. He is also teachable, willing to be taught by Jehovah. The psalmist David wrote: “[Jehovah] will cause the meek ones to walk in his judicial decision, and he will teach the meek ones his way.”—Psalm 25:9; Proverbs 3:5, 6.
    We now see that it has been admitted that the GB have sometimes been advocating or insisting on their own views. Several of these views have been "false" as they have now admitted. It is clear that in some cases these have merely been based on other people's opinions, often their own predecessors on the GB. They have sometimes forgotten to be meek. Although they admit that some of the teachings and direction has been incorrect, they have sometimes forgotten the meekness and humility that should come from these experiences and continue to insist that others should have "complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by . . . the faithful and discreet slave."
    Well that is the same as saying that we should have complete confidence in views and opinions that are prone to error, potentially false and uninspired, just because they have been mixed in with truths revealed from Jehovah through his Son, Jesus Christ. 
    But with true humility, faithfulness and discretion it doesn't have to be this way.
    The GB, as overseers (elders), are reaching out for an oversight position over the extended worldwide congregations, and are therefore reaching out for a fine work. It is a very valuable and useful office of oversight. And through it they can preside over various questions and concerns, while considering input and issues from all over the world. But in any position of privilege or heavy responsibility there is a danger that Jesus clearly warned about. If we take Jesus' words seriously, we will be on the watch for the very examples that Jesus warned about. We know that the GB consider themselves to be in a position much like that of the original 12 apostles, or that of the "NT" Bible writers, and the Bible tells us what such positions can lead to: the desire for control, power, prominence, leadership, and even obedience.
    (Matthew 19:27-20:27) . . .Then Peter said in reply: “Look! We have left all things and followed you; what, then, will there be for us?” . . .[Jesus answered] you who have followed me will sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit everlasting life.
    30 “But many who are first will be last and the last first. . . .‘These last men put in one hour’s work; still you made them equal to us who bore the burden of the day and the burning heat!’ 13 But he said in reply to one of them, ‘Fellow, I do you no wrong. You agreed with me for a de·narʹi·us, did you not? 14 Take what is yours and go. I want to give to this last one the same as to you. . . .  Or is your eye envious because I am good?’ 16 In this way, the last ones will be first, and the first ones last.” . . .
    20 Then the mother of the sons of Zebʹe·dee approached him with her sons, . . . .  “Give the word that these two sons of mine may sit down, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your Kingdom.”  . . . 23 He said to them: “You will indeed drink my cup, but to sit down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”
    24 When the ten others heard about it, they became indignant at the two brothers. 25 But Jesus called them to him and said: “You know that the rulers of the nations lord it over them and the great men wield authority over them. 26 This must not be the way among you; but whoever wants to become great among you must be your minister, 27 and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave.
    I think there is a tendency for all of us to want to read into the first century congregation a kind of human authority structure among the apostles and older men of Jerusalem that just wasn't there. The apostles remaining in Jerusalem prior to the writing of the "NT" has allready served its purpose, and is not intended as an ongoing model of apostolic succession in the last days. Because we are only human, we think that the hierarchical system under Moses, and therefore the "seat of Moses" was intended to continue into Christian times. We are therefore anxious to see any criticizers as "Korah vs Moses." We don't have the faith that true Christianity can thrive without a group of men wielding authority. (Just as Israel didn't think they could compete with nations around them without a king.)
    We tend not to see this wielding of authority as a problem, because MOST of what the GB relays and publishes is perfectly acceptable. But this lax attitude toward what Jesus warned us about can result in a very dangerous situation for Christians. We do not mature as we should to stand on our own, because it's so much easier to just accept humans as leaders, and accept them as vicars of Christ. Paul pointed out the folly of this very attitude toward other humans who think they should be more than what even the "apostles" were, and who want to be more than just faithful and discreet "stewards." They will tend to go beyond the things written; to want honor, and to judge, and to govern.
    (1 Corinthians 4:2-10) 2 In this regard, what is expected of stewards is that they be found faithful. 3 Now to me it is of very little importance to be examined by you or by a human tribunal. In fact, I do not even examine myself. 4 For I am not conscious of anything against myself. But by this I am not proved righteous; the one who examines me is Jehovah. 5 Therefore, do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes. He will bring the secret things of darkness to light and make known the intentions of the hearts, and then each one will receive his praise from God. 6 Now, brothers, these things I have applied to myself and A·polʹlos for your good, that through us you may learn the rule: “Do not go beyond the things that are written,” so that you may not be puffed up with pride, favoring one against the other. 7 For who makes you different from another? Indeed, what do you have that you did not receive? If, in fact, you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not receive it? 8 Are you already satisfied? Are you already rich? Have you begun ruling as kings without us? I really wish that you had begun ruling as kings, so that we also might rule with you as kings. 9 For it seems to me that God has put us the apostles last on exhibition as men condemned to death, because we have become a theatrical spectacle to the world, and to angels and to men. 10 We are fools because of Christ, but you are discreet in Christ; we are weak, but you are strong; you are held in honor, but we in dishonor. These men wanted to be "guardians" when Paul indicated that the entire worldwide congregation were their/our guardians:
    (1 Corinthians 4:15) . . .For though you may have 10,000 guardians in Christ. . . (Romans 14:12) . . .So, then, each of us will render an account for himself to God. (Romans 14:4) 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Jehovah can make him stand. (Galatians 6:4, 5) 4 But let each one examine his own actions, and then he will have cause for rejoicing in regard to himself alone, and not in comparison with the other person. 5 For each one will carry his own load.
  7. Thanks
    JW Insider got a reaction from Juan Rivera in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    Most Witnesses obviously want to live peaceful Christian lives and conduct ourselves in a way that pleases Jehovah God and Jesus Christ. None of us really want the job of being responsible to take a specific position on all doctrinal matters and setting priorities for organizational direction in our overall global ministry. But we can be thankful that among Christians, there will always be a few that will take the lead in those heavy responsibilities.
    The very desire to take the lead in such matters seems like an assignment that only someone who is very brave or very foolhardy would take. It seems that, from a worldly perspective, only the most haughty among us would reach out for such an important job. Yet, we know some of these brothers very well from either personal acquaintance, or perhaps they were Circuit and District Overseers in our congregations. Perhaps we worked alongside some of them in a Branch Office. We get to know their personalities from presentations, speeches, and broadcasts. We see them interact with each other at some events.
    All in all, the majority of them seem to be good, God-fearing, humble men who want to do what is right, the same as the rest of us. We don't get the idea that any of them "schemed" to get to this position. We know that the guidelines for elders apply to them just as they apply to congregation elders. And it's my opinion, but I see a certain stability and faithfulness to worthy goals among all of them. 
    Now it's easy to say good things about these men, and that's my point. When these men were mostly chosen only from a certain similar mold, there was not a large "pool" for these "gifts in men" to be chosen from. In the past, most had been chosen from a limited bureaucratic background. At the point when there were 17 GB members alive at the same time, most (but not all) had the ability to give a good talk, but at least half of them were seriously lacking in Biblical expertise, and at least half of them had very little experience even in the door-to-door field ministry for the last 40 years of their lives. We should not have been surprised that certain kinds of flaws showed up among these men so that several were dismissed, and a lot of politics and scheming was known to go on among those who remained.
    But the current group, especially after the death of Theodore Jaracz, have been chosen from a much wider pool of candidates. These men have made more progress in the last 20 years than in the previous 100 years. They are managing a much bigger, and smoother operation, with millions and millions more persons in their care. Doctrinal changes over the last 20 years have been steady and clearly beneficial overall. The quality of the publications and the website has improved greatly. It's reach is enormous. 
    I've already stated my opinion that the GB are not the equivalent of the "faithful slave" from a Biblical standpoint. But that's not the point of discussion here. These men, the GB, who have taken the lead for doctrinal and prioritized the organizational and ministerial direction have taken on an important and necessary assignment. They admit that they aren't perfect. Of course, that statement is meaningless, because such a statement almost always is used with the intention of meaning "perfect, for all practical purposes." But they don't leave it at that. They admit that they have made serious errors in doctrine and leadership. they admit that the spiritual food they produce and distribute is not always perfect.
    So, with that said, I think one way of looking at the overall picture is to see these men in the position of keeping order. They take the lead at the "highest" level, not because they think that you must think that all these doctrines are perfect. They do it because it keeps order and harmony. They do it by taking a stand on certain doctrinal matters and setting organizational priorities. Sure, they may do some of this by majority vote, but ultimately they make choices. This is part of remaining organized in any organization and not falling into chaos. Going off in many directions is inefficient. Even trying a certain direction that proves untenable has a certain value if it's caught early enough, and there is humility to change.
    Taking a stand means that we will sometimes discover we took the wrong stand, but it also has an advantage in making our beliefs transparent. If a doctrinal stand is taken, our thinking is clearer on it, and contradictions show up more easily. It would be easy to be 100% accurate by taking a less dogmatic stand on many things. But this makes it harder to test whether we are thinking correctly and reasonably on some of our beliefs.
    I think that it could be like those logic puzzles, like they do for LSAT tests, where you get 5 to 10 clues, and have to figure out, for example, where everyone lives and what they do, what they drink, and the color of their house:
    Bill is a plumber who drinks whiskey and lives in the green house that is next to a corner house. John is not a carpenter, and he drinks soda and lives in either a red or blue house that is two houses from Sally's house. etc. etc. etc. Sometimes you get to a point where you just need to take a stand and say that John must be in a blue house, for example, even if you don't know for sure, so that you can properly test if it works. (Actually, Sudoku was probably a better example, come to think of it.)
    So, we can have doctrinal claims that are still in the middle of such testing. We took a stand, and it clarifies our position so that it can be more clearly tested. It can work for both trivial and important matters like: whether Moses wrote all of the first five books of the Bible himself, or whether Galatians was written prior to 1 Corinthians, or whether the "other sheep" are Gentiles or "spiritual Gentiles."
    If we (as an organization) take a stand, it should be faster to get to a point where we can take a consistent stand on all important matters of doctrine and teaching. This assumes that haughtiness and love of tradition don't get in the way of change. And that gets back to having the right kinds of personalities taking the lead.
  8. Downvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Foreigner in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    Quite the opposite. I stated that I think the GB have a desire to do God's work and to obey God, and that they are worthy of double honor (especially as they work hard in speaking and teaching). They have reached out for the office of overseer, and as the scripture I quoted states, they are therefore desirous of a fine work. This is their goal, as I stated:
    Somehow you decided that this means they are not worthy?
    My concern was that a few of these men, evidently, have also succumbed to some ideas, based on doctrinal traditions that have been handed down to us since at least Rutherford's time. Those traditions include trying to maneuver 1914 into Jesus' parables even when it becomes clear that it won't work. They have therefore cornered themselves into making a declaration of their own righteousness and faithfulness in a presumptuous manner rather than faithfully and discreetly waiting upon Jesus to make that judgment.
    This is just a false step that our brothers have taken, presumably before they were aware of it. Many Witnesses have noticed this. I would assume that thousands have noticed this and are therefore concerned. In fact, I now think that the GB themselves are aware of this doctrinal conundrum and have begun trying to extricate themselves. The first step is admitting that it is presumptuous to declare a specific group or class as Jehovah's "sole channel." Then admitting that many of the doctrines through the years have been false, and that even current doctrines and procedures are subject to error.  And if we are aware of a false step, our responsibility is to say something.
    *** od p. 193 Part 2 Jehovah’s Righteous Requirements ***
    25. In addition to confessing his own sins, each person has what responsibility regarding serious wrongdoing by others that could threaten the spiritual or moral cleanness of the congregation?
    “If someone sins because he has heard a public call to testify and he is a witness or has seen or learned about it and he does not report it, then he will answer for his error.”—Lev. 5:1.
     
  9. Downvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Foreigner in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    Hmmmm. It's usually easy to identify anyone's remarks here as their opinion, and I have expressed my opinion. If I had said, or "published" as you say, that the city of Sodom must not be destroyed forever in the final judgment and they are therefore coming back in the resurrection, or that only the babies and children killed in the Flood of Noah's day are coming back in the resurrection, then you might immediately recognize that this was an opinion, even if I used Scriptures to back up my opinion. Especially if you recognized that I was using a different set of scriptures than our publications use in order to back up my opinion.
    No matter whether I think that something you or Tom or Witness, or John, or Anna or Jack or others might be right or wrong, if I can recognize that it is different from the most recent published presentation in the publications or from the platform, then I know that you or they have formed an opinion, no matter how sure anyone is about that opinion.
    But I would expect you (or them) to provide (publish) a reasonable and hopefully scriptural argument for that opinion. And I might expect that the argument could be very good or could very well be flawed. Just as my own opinion might be flawed.
    An opinion can very well be in opposition to the majority opinion, or accepted doctrine. My mention of the fact that perhaps thousands might think this way is an acknowledgment of the fact that I have heard these opinions from others too, and I extrapolate because I don't think I'm so unique or special in any way, nor is this congregation.
    I think sensitivities to differences on this particular opinion have been weighted by the fact that it is fast becoming the most repeated unique doctrine in the Watchtower study articles. Since 2014, the expressions "faithful slave" and "faithful and discreet slave" have regularly edged out "1914" and "generation" and "Armageddon." In fact, from 2016 to 2018, the date 1919 was used far more in the Watchtower than 1914. I think you can guess why.
  10. Downvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from BillyTheKid46 in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    This is, in fact, a pretty easy question to answer. You did hit the nail on the head, as it were, with the definition of "discreet."
    Here's where we can begin to see why.
    The primary Watchtower that changed our current definition of the FDS was back in July 15, 2013. The article claimed that the FDS was now specifically and uniquely associated with the Governing Body. There we see the following, which I am including again here, not for you, but mostly for those who might not have read it carefully.
    *** w13 7/15 p. 20 par. 3 “Who Really Is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?” ***
    In the past, our publications have said the following: At Pentecost 33 C.E., Jesus appointed the faithful slave over his domestics. The slave represents all anointed Christians on earth as a group at any one time since then. The domestics refer to the same anointed ones as individuals. In 1919, Jesus appointed the faithful slave “over all his belongings”—all his earthly Kingdom interests.
    The first part of that old view goes back to Russell: that all of the anointed made up the faithful slave. Russell kept that view from 1879 to until about 1897. The assumption was that they would be appointed over all his belongings at the time of their resurrection. Then, in 1897, Russell discreetly published an article stating that the slave was only one person, one individual. Then, very indiscreetly, began publishing letters and articles that addressed himself as that faithful and wise servant (FDS), allowed himself to be referred to like this at conventions, and began referring to the Watchtower publications as "food at the proper time" or "meat in due season."
    Watchtower publications have said that Russell personally admitted to being the FDS in private. The publications have also stated that, when asked, he would sometimes respond: "Some say the Society is [that servant] . . . some say that I am."
    An attempt to apply another faithful steward parable to Rutherford began shortly after Russell died. But Rutherford himself continued to teach that Russell had personally been that faithful and wise servant. 
    That didn't last more than a decade, though, because Rutherford went back to Russell's original view that all the 144,000 made up the faithful slave class, and that they fed one another, including themselves, as the domestics. Later it was added that 1919 had been the year that they were appointed over all Christ's belongings. By the 1950's, the "governing body" as the representative officers of the Watch Tower Society began associating themselves more directly with the work of that "faithful and discreet slave."
    *** w58 1/15 pp. 45-47 pars. 17-23 Overseers in Apocalyptic Times ***
    Can it still be true that the holy spirit appoints overseers over the congregations of true Christians today? Since the spirit is God’s invisible active force and is silent and unfeelable, how could we be sure that the appointing of overseers is by it today? The Holy Bible, God’s Word, makes this certain.. . .  Since 1919 God’s organization has risen up to let the light of his glory shine amid the gross darkness of this world, and the time has come for the fulfillment of his promise: “I will . . . make thy chiefs peaceful and thine overseers righteous.” (Isa. 60:1, 2, 17, AS; LXX; Thomson; Bagster) We are living also in the time of final fulfillment of the prophecy to which the apostle Peter referred on the day of Pentecost, namely: “It shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit.” (Joel 2:28, 29, AS; Acts 2:16-18) We should therefore expect the spirit’s activity to include appointing overseers.
    19 As in the days of the apostles, the Christian flock of Jehovah God has over it a visible governing body. It acts for and in expression of the “faithful and discreet slave” whom Jesus Christ has appointed since coming into his kingdom in the heavens in 1914. When warning his apostles about his coming for the judgment of his followers at an unknown hour in the time of the end of this old world, Jesus said: “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.” (Matt. 24:45-47) Since 1919 this “faithful and discreet slave,” who is a composite person made up of all anointed Christian joint heirs of Jesus Christ, has been taking care of “all his belongings” on earth. The slave has been faithfully giving out the spiritual, Biblical food at the proper time, so that there is no spiritual famine among the Christian witnesses of Jehovah. To make this “faithful and discreet slave” class equal to their heavy responsibilities in these last days, God through Christ has poured out his spirit upon them in these last days, in complete fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy.
    20 The governing body of the “faithful and discreet slave” class is taken from the members of this same anointed, spirit-filled class. By God’s spirit it is functioning. So, then, when the appointment of overseers is made by this governing body in harmony with the requirements laid down for overseers, it is really by the spirit that such overseers are appointed, although through human intermediaries. As the modern history of Jehovah’s witnesses shows, this is specially true since 1932, when the system of elective elders and deacons [ministerial servants] was done away with in their congregations.
    21 The governing body of mature members of the “faithful and discreet slave” class always seeks the guidance of God’s holy spirit in appointing responsible men in the congregations overseers, together with their assistants, the ministerial servants. They do not act according to any personal favoritism or any bias. . . .
    22 When, now, the governing body designates overseers that meet those plainly stated requirements, it is really the holy spirit that leads to the appointing of such overseers; it is really the holy spirit that makes such overseers. This fact becomes more evident when we note that it is also the fullness of the indwelling of the holy spirit in the candidate for the office of overseer that influences his appointment. The candidate must show that he is filled with the spirit by the way he conducts himself and his family (if he has one). . . .
    23 In consideration of the spirit’s fruitage produced by the candidate and in harmony with the written requirements set out in the Holy Scriptures written by men under the operation of the holy spirit, the governing body acts, being itself moved by the holy spirit for which it prays to God that it may guide the governing body. In every respect, then, the spirit of God comes to the fore in the matter of appointing overseers. So today as well as in Paul’s day it may be said that the holy spirit appoints overseers over the flock of God that he purchased “with the blood of his own Son.” (Acts 20:28, Schonfield) If in course of time any overseer turns out bad, we must remember that even Judas Iscariot, whom Jesus himself selected to be an apostolic overseer, turned out bad, betraying his own Overseer, the Chief Shepherd, to his enemies to be killed.
    I included a little extra from the context of the earlier Watchtower as foundation for discussing some related aspects such as the actual meaning of spirit-led organization, etc. But the main point is to keep in mind the two primary views most of us have held during our lifetime as Witnesses:
    (1950's-2013) The GB, especially since 1919, acts for and in expression of the FDS, which has included all the anointed since 33 CE., but which has been appointed over all Christ's belongings since 1919. (2013-present) The GB, since 1919, is now the same thing as the FDS, which no longer includes all the anointed, but only the GB, and has only been appointed since 1919, but will not be appointed over all Christ's belongings until a future time when all of the anointed are in heaven.
  11. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Anna in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    This is, in fact, a pretty easy question to answer. You did hit the nail on the head, as it were, with the definition of "discreet."
    Here's where we can begin to see why.
    The primary Watchtower that changed our current definition of the FDS was back in July 15, 2013. The article claimed that the FDS was now specifically and uniquely associated with the Governing Body. There we see the following, which I am including again here, not for you, but mostly for those who might not have read it carefully.
    *** w13 7/15 p. 20 par. 3 “Who Really Is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?” ***
    In the past, our publications have said the following: At Pentecost 33 C.E., Jesus appointed the faithful slave over his domestics. The slave represents all anointed Christians on earth as a group at any one time since then. The domestics refer to the same anointed ones as individuals. In 1919, Jesus appointed the faithful slave “over all his belongings”—all his earthly Kingdom interests.
    The first part of that old view goes back to Russell: that all of the anointed made up the faithful slave. Russell kept that view from 1879 to until about 1897. The assumption was that they would be appointed over all his belongings at the time of their resurrection. Then, in 1897, Russell discreetly published an article stating that the slave was only one person, one individual. Then, very indiscreetly, began publishing letters and articles that addressed himself as that faithful and wise servant (FDS), allowed himself to be referred to like this at conventions, and began referring to the Watchtower publications as "food at the proper time" or "meat in due season."
    Watchtower publications have said that Russell personally admitted to being the FDS in private. The publications have also stated that, when asked, he would sometimes respond: "Some say the Society is [that servant] . . . some say that I am."
    An attempt to apply another faithful steward parable to Rutherford began shortly after Russell died. But Rutherford himself continued to teach that Russell had personally been that faithful and wise servant. 
    That didn't last more than a decade, though, because Rutherford went back to Russell's original view that all the 144,000 made up the faithful slave class, and that they fed one another, including themselves, as the domestics. Later it was added that 1919 had been the year that they were appointed over all Christ's belongings. By the 1950's, the "governing body" as the representative officers of the Watch Tower Society began associating themselves more directly with the work of that "faithful and discreet slave."
    *** w58 1/15 pp. 45-47 pars. 17-23 Overseers in Apocalyptic Times ***
    Can it still be true that the holy spirit appoints overseers over the congregations of true Christians today? Since the spirit is God’s invisible active force and is silent and unfeelable, how could we be sure that the appointing of overseers is by it today? The Holy Bible, God’s Word, makes this certain.. . .  Since 1919 God’s organization has risen up to let the light of his glory shine amid the gross darkness of this world, and the time has come for the fulfillment of his promise: “I will . . . make thy chiefs peaceful and thine overseers righteous.” (Isa. 60:1, 2, 17, AS; LXX; Thomson; Bagster) We are living also in the time of final fulfillment of the prophecy to which the apostle Peter referred on the day of Pentecost, namely: “It shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit.” (Joel 2:28, 29, AS; Acts 2:16-18) We should therefore expect the spirit’s activity to include appointing overseers.
    19 As in the days of the apostles, the Christian flock of Jehovah God has over it a visible governing body. It acts for and in expression of the “faithful and discreet slave” whom Jesus Christ has appointed since coming into his kingdom in the heavens in 1914. When warning his apostles about his coming for the judgment of his followers at an unknown hour in the time of the end of this old world, Jesus said: “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.” (Matt. 24:45-47) Since 1919 this “faithful and discreet slave,” who is a composite person made up of all anointed Christian joint heirs of Jesus Christ, has been taking care of “all his belongings” on earth. The slave has been faithfully giving out the spiritual, Biblical food at the proper time, so that there is no spiritual famine among the Christian witnesses of Jehovah. To make this “faithful and discreet slave” class equal to their heavy responsibilities in these last days, God through Christ has poured out his spirit upon them in these last days, in complete fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy.
    20 The governing body of the “faithful and discreet slave” class is taken from the members of this same anointed, spirit-filled class. By God’s spirit it is functioning. So, then, when the appointment of overseers is made by this governing body in harmony with the requirements laid down for overseers, it is really by the spirit that such overseers are appointed, although through human intermediaries. As the modern history of Jehovah’s witnesses shows, this is specially true since 1932, when the system of elective elders and deacons [ministerial servants] was done away with in their congregations.
    21 The governing body of mature members of the “faithful and discreet slave” class always seeks the guidance of God’s holy spirit in appointing responsible men in the congregations overseers, together with their assistants, the ministerial servants. They do not act according to any personal favoritism or any bias. . . .
    22 When, now, the governing body designates overseers that meet those plainly stated requirements, it is really the holy spirit that leads to the appointing of such overseers; it is really the holy spirit that makes such overseers. This fact becomes more evident when we note that it is also the fullness of the indwelling of the holy spirit in the candidate for the office of overseer that influences his appointment. The candidate must show that he is filled with the spirit by the way he conducts himself and his family (if he has one). . . .
    23 In consideration of the spirit’s fruitage produced by the candidate and in harmony with the written requirements set out in the Holy Scriptures written by men under the operation of the holy spirit, the governing body acts, being itself moved by the holy spirit for which it prays to God that it may guide the governing body. In every respect, then, the spirit of God comes to the fore in the matter of appointing overseers. So today as well as in Paul’s day it may be said that the holy spirit appoints overseers over the flock of God that he purchased “with the blood of his own Son.” (Acts 20:28, Schonfield) If in course of time any overseer turns out bad, we must remember that even Judas Iscariot, whom Jesus himself selected to be an apostolic overseer, turned out bad, betraying his own Overseer, the Chief Shepherd, to his enemies to be killed.
    I included a little extra from the context of the earlier Watchtower as foundation for discussing some related aspects such as the actual meaning of spirit-led organization, etc. But the main point is to keep in mind the two primary views most of us have held during our lifetime as Witnesses:
    (1950's-2013) The GB, especially since 1919, acts for and in expression of the FDS, which has included all the anointed since 33 CE., but which has been appointed over all Christ's belongings since 1919. (2013-present) The GB, since 1919, is now the same thing as the FDS, which no longer includes all the anointed, but only the GB, and has only been appointed since 1919, but will not be appointed over all Christ's belongings until a future time when all of the anointed are in heaven.
  12. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to JOHN BUTLER in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    "Anything that does not kill you will make you stronger". 
    Tell it to the victims of Child Sexual Abuse. Tell it to the people who have been shunned by their families.  Tell it to the people that have lost loved ones because the loved ones would not have blood. Tell it to everyone that has been misled and hurt by the W/t / JW / GB et al. 
    Things don't make a person stronger, they may show the person their own strength, but many have no strength. If you have strength then be happy with it, but don't take it for granted. Many of us don't have that strength.  
  13. Thanks
    JW Insider reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    I disagree .... you lack the perspective that only time and a LOT of varied experiences can give you.
    Jehovah's Witnesses management does a LOT of things wrong, but they also do a lot of things right ... that no one else is doing right.  In the Corporate world, a good executive is one who gets 50% of his decisions right ... and of course WHICH 50% makes all the difference in the world.
    Would you quit a job at Microsoft, because every other operating system they release bombs out, and drives everyone nutso?   I would not.
    The reason God commanded us to be in subjection to the "Superior Authorities" is NOT because they are even right most of the time .... but because even the VERY WORST are better than anarchy.
    The fact that we know Jehovah and Christ as they really are gives us a significant edge in having a quiet, peaceful, and prosperous life.
    The TRUTH sets us free.
    Humans are just nasty, selfish and no-good, so stuff ALWAYS gets lost, in translation.
    I don't bitch and moan about what the Catholics, Baptists, etc., ad nauseum do or do not do, because they are a lost cause, and cannot reform.
    My sincere hope is that we, do.
     
     
  14. Downvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from BillyTheKid46 in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    Hmmmm. It's usually easy to identify anyone's remarks here as their opinion, and I have expressed my opinion. If I had said, or "published" as you say, that the city of Sodom must not be destroyed forever in the final judgment and they are therefore coming back in the resurrection, or that only the babies and children killed in the Flood of Noah's day are coming back in the resurrection, then you might immediately recognize that this was an opinion, even if I used Scriptures to back up my opinion. Especially if you recognized that I was using a different set of scriptures than our publications use in order to back up my opinion.
    No matter whether I think that something you or Tom or Witness, or John, or Anna or Jack or others might be right or wrong, if I can recognize that it is different from the most recent published presentation in the publications or from the platform, then I know that you or they have formed an opinion, no matter how sure anyone is about that opinion.
    But I would expect you (or them) to provide (publish) a reasonable and hopefully scriptural argument for that opinion. And I might expect that the argument could be very good or could very well be flawed. Just as my own opinion might be flawed.
    An opinion can very well be in opposition to the majority opinion, or accepted doctrine. My mention of the fact that perhaps thousands might think this way is an acknowledgment of the fact that I have heard these opinions from others too, and I extrapolate because I don't think I'm so unique or special in any way, nor is this congregation.
    I think sensitivities to differences on this particular opinion have been weighted by the fact that it is fast becoming the most repeated unique doctrine in the Watchtower study articles. Since 2014, the expressions "faithful slave" and "faithful and discreet slave" have regularly edged out "1914" and "generation" and "Armageddon." In fact, from 2016 to 2018, the date 1919 was used far more in the Watchtower than 1914. I think you can guess why.
  15. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from James Thomas Rook Jr. in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    Hmmmm. It's usually easy to identify anyone's remarks here as their opinion, and I have expressed my opinion. If I had said, or "published" as you say, that the city of Sodom must not be destroyed forever in the final judgment and they are therefore coming back in the resurrection, or that only the babies and children killed in the Flood of Noah's day are coming back in the resurrection, then you might immediately recognize that this was an opinion, even if I used Scriptures to back up my opinion. Especially if you recognized that I was using a different set of scriptures than our publications use in order to back up my opinion.
    No matter whether I think that something you or Tom or Witness, or John, or Anna or Jack or others might be right or wrong, if I can recognize that it is different from the most recent published presentation in the publications or from the platform, then I know that you or they have formed an opinion, no matter how sure anyone is about that opinion.
    But I would expect you (or them) to provide (publish) a reasonable and hopefully scriptural argument for that opinion. And I might expect that the argument could be very good or could very well be flawed. Just as my own opinion might be flawed.
    An opinion can very well be in opposition to the majority opinion, or accepted doctrine. My mention of the fact that perhaps thousands might think this way is an acknowledgment of the fact that I have heard these opinions from others too, and I extrapolate because I don't think I'm so unique or special in any way, nor is this congregation.
    I think sensitivities to differences on this particular opinion have been weighted by the fact that it is fast becoming the most repeated unique doctrine in the Watchtower study articles. Since 2014, the expressions "faithful slave" and "faithful and discreet slave" have regularly edged out "1914" and "generation" and "Armageddon." In fact, from 2016 to 2018, the date 1919 was used far more in the Watchtower than 1914. I think you can guess why.
  16. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to derek1956 in Do jw's believe in a rapture?   
    I think they are talking about when the anointed are taken to heaven, if so, then they will be taken when the great tribulation is cut short
     
  17. Downvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from BillyTheKid46 in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    Quite the opposite. I stated that I think the GB have a desire to do God's work and to obey God, and that they are worthy of double honor (especially as they work hard in speaking and teaching). They have reached out for the office of overseer, and as the scripture I quoted states, they are therefore desirous of a fine work. This is their goal, as I stated:
    Somehow you decided that this means they are not worthy?
    My concern was that a few of these men, evidently, have also succumbed to some ideas, based on doctrinal traditions that have been handed down to us since at least Rutherford's time. Those traditions include trying to maneuver 1914 into Jesus' parables even when it becomes clear that it won't work. They have therefore cornered themselves into making a declaration of their own righteousness and faithfulness in a presumptuous manner rather than faithfully and discreetly waiting upon Jesus to make that judgment.
    This is just a false step that our brothers have taken, presumably before they were aware of it. Many Witnesses have noticed this. I would assume that thousands have noticed this and are therefore concerned. In fact, I now think that the GB themselves are aware of this doctrinal conundrum and have begun trying to extricate themselves. The first step is admitting that it is presumptuous to declare a specific group or class as Jehovah's "sole channel." Then admitting that many of the doctrines through the years have been false, and that even current doctrines and procedures are subject to error.  And if we are aware of a false step, our responsibility is to say something.
    *** od p. 193 Part 2 Jehovah’s Righteous Requirements ***
    25. In addition to confessing his own sins, each person has what responsibility regarding serious wrongdoing by others that could threaten the spiritual or moral cleanness of the congregation?
    “If someone sins because he has heard a public call to testify and he is a witness or has seen or learned about it and he does not report it, then he will answer for his error.”—Lev. 5:1.
     
  18. Thanks
    JW Insider got a reaction from ComfortMyPeople in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    With the above as the basis, we can now begin to see an issue with the explanation.
    After arriving in 1914, Jesus was supposed to have appointed the GB as the FDS in 1919. But the original parable is about Jesus appointing the FDS and then departing for an unknown amount of time.
    If Jesus arrived in 1914, and appointed the FDS in 1919, then when did he depart?  Where did he depart to? For a time, after 1916, Rutherford got very quiet about the 40 years of harvest running from 1874 to 1914, and, in fact, he changed those 40 years, and made them run from 1878 to 1918.  At the time, recall, 1914 was still considered an embarrassing, failed expectation. It had not yet been tied to any invisible presence [still 1874] or the start of Christ's Kingdom [still 1878], or the casting down of Satan. And the "first resurrection" was not yet tied to 1918; it was still 1881. So Rutherford would soon begin to speak of Jesus having "arrived" in 1918 for the inspection and cleansing of the Temple. In spite of a great European War in 1914, it was pretty clear to Rutherford that nothing Biblically significant had happened in 1914. That was supposed to be the final VISIBLE manifestation of an invisible presence that started 40 years earlier. After inspection, 1919 would be the new fresh start. In the early 1920's, Rutherford reaffirmed the chronology, including 1874, 1878, 1881, and 1914 in preparation for the sureness of his 1925 prediction. But he also said that there was more proof for 1925 than there had been for 1914.
    So now we move onto the details. Luke says there are four classes of slave:
    Faithful and Discreet who will be appointed over all belongings on the Master's arrival Unfaithful Slave who will be beaten with greatest severity Understanding Slave who didn't get ready and is beaten with many strokes Misunderstanding Slave who gets beaten with few strokes. This of course matches the parable of the talents where a master makes appointments to various servants, and a NWT cross-reference points us to Matthew 25:
    (Matthew 25:14-30) . . .“For it is just like a man about to travel abroad who summoned his slaves and entrusted his belongings to them. 15 He gave five talents to one, two to another, and one to still another, to each according to his own ability, and he went abroad. . . . 19 “After a long time, the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. 20 So the one who had received the five talents came forward and brought five additional talents, . . . 21 His master said to him: ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You were faithful over a few things. I will appoint you over many things. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 Next the one who had received the two talents . . . 23 His master said to him: ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You were faithful over a few things. I will appoint you over many things. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 “Finally the slave who had received the one talent . . . In reply his master said to him: ‘Wicked and sluggish slave, . . . 29 For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance. But the one who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 30 And throw the good-for-nothing slave out into the darkness outside.. . .
    It ends with an idea similar to the way Luke ends the parable of the faithful and wise steward:
    (Luke 12:48) . . .Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him.
    In fact, we have a situation in several parables (marriage feast, where the idea is always that the Master makes an appointment over some of his belongings to his servants, and then the master departs to travel abroad, and then the master returns (at a time they didn't expect) and the Master judges those slaves.
    Another short one is in Mark (the doorkeeper), where Jesus gives authority to his slaves, to each one his work.
    (Mark 13:34) It is like a man traveling abroad who left his house and gave the authority to his slaves, to each one his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to keep on the watch. 35 Keep on the watch, therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether late in the day or at midnight or before dawn or early in the morning, 36 in order that when he comes suddenly, he does not find you sleeping.
    Back when Jesus departed in 33 to travel abroad, these parables made more sense. After all he assigned persons like Peter to "feed his little sheep" in 33 CE and then departed. He then returned in 1914 or 1918 for an inspection (of the Temple) and judged a group as ready for a greater assignment. But now Jesus arrives in 1914, to makes an assignment, but remains present to arrive later to make a judgment and greater appointments over all his belongings. Obviously the whole thing was turned into a mess in order to twist 1914 and 1919 into the mix, but it doesn't work anymore, because Jesus never departs after making the assignments.
    And of course, in the Watchtower version, we have now eliminated the evil slave as a non-existent hypothetical, even though Jesus always considered two three or four or even more slaves, each one according to his work. The Watchtower avoids Luke's version altogether because it might require thinking about who is represented by the non-existent hypothetical second slave who gets punished severely, and the third non-existent hypothetical slave who gets many strokes, and the fourth non-existent hypothetical slave that gets few strokes.
    But here's the most indiscreet part:
    No one is declared the "faithful and wise servant" until after that judgment by Jesus. None of them were supposed to presumptuously claim that they were already to be identified as that slave and that any chance of becoming evil or punished is only hypothetical or non-existent. It's up to Jesus to make that judgment when he returns.
    And of course this points up another major flaw when we claim that this final judgment as faithful results in appointment over all his belongings. At this point, the Watchtower explains that we are no longer talking about the FDS anymore, but the time when ALL the anointed, the GB along with the other 143,966 anointed, are equally appointed over all his belongings at the same time. (With no concern over who those other classes of faithful, less faithful, and unfaithful servants might have been.)
  19. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from JOHN BUTLER in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    With the above as the basis, we can now begin to see an issue with the explanation.
    After arriving in 1914, Jesus was supposed to have appointed the GB as the FDS in 1919. But the original parable is about Jesus appointing the FDS and then departing for an unknown amount of time.
    If Jesus arrived in 1914, and appointed the FDS in 1919, then when did he depart?  Where did he depart to? For a time, after 1916, Rutherford got very quiet about the 40 years of harvest running from 1874 to 1914, and, in fact, he changed those 40 years, and made them run from 1878 to 1918.  At the time, recall, 1914 was still considered an embarrassing, failed expectation. It had not yet been tied to any invisible presence [still 1874] or the start of Christ's Kingdom [still 1878], or the casting down of Satan. And the "first resurrection" was not yet tied to 1918; it was still 1881. So Rutherford would soon begin to speak of Jesus having "arrived" in 1918 for the inspection and cleansing of the Temple. In spite of a great European War in 1914, it was pretty clear to Rutherford that nothing Biblically significant had happened in 1914. That was supposed to be the final VISIBLE manifestation of an invisible presence that started 40 years earlier. After inspection, 1919 would be the new fresh start. In the early 1920's, Rutherford reaffirmed the chronology, including 1874, 1878, 1881, and 1914 in preparation for the sureness of his 1925 prediction. But he also said that there was more proof for 1925 than there had been for 1914.
    So now we move onto the details. Luke says there are four classes of slave:
    Faithful and Discreet who will be appointed over all belongings on the Master's arrival Unfaithful Slave who will be beaten with greatest severity Understanding Slave who didn't get ready and is beaten with many strokes Misunderstanding Slave who gets beaten with few strokes. This of course matches the parable of the talents where a master makes appointments to various servants, and a NWT cross-reference points us to Matthew 25:
    (Matthew 25:14-30) . . .“For it is just like a man about to travel abroad who summoned his slaves and entrusted his belongings to them. 15 He gave five talents to one, two to another, and one to still another, to each according to his own ability, and he went abroad. . . . 19 “After a long time, the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. 20 So the one who had received the five talents came forward and brought five additional talents, . . . 21 His master said to him: ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You were faithful over a few things. I will appoint you over many things. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 Next the one who had received the two talents . . . 23 His master said to him: ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You were faithful over a few things. I will appoint you over many things. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 “Finally the slave who had received the one talent . . . In reply his master said to him: ‘Wicked and sluggish slave, . . . 29 For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance. But the one who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 30 And throw the good-for-nothing slave out into the darkness outside.. . .
    It ends with an idea similar to the way Luke ends the parable of the faithful and wise steward:
    (Luke 12:48) . . .Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him.
    In fact, we have a situation in several parables (marriage feast, where the idea is always that the Master makes an appointment over some of his belongings to his servants, and then the master departs to travel abroad, and then the master returns (at a time they didn't expect) and the Master judges those slaves.
    Another short one is in Mark (the doorkeeper), where Jesus gives authority to his slaves, to each one his work.
    (Mark 13:34) It is like a man traveling abroad who left his house and gave the authority to his slaves, to each one his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to keep on the watch. 35 Keep on the watch, therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether late in the day or at midnight or before dawn or early in the morning, 36 in order that when he comes suddenly, he does not find you sleeping.
    Back when Jesus departed in 33 to travel abroad, these parables made more sense. After all he assigned persons like Peter to "feed his little sheep" in 33 CE and then departed. He then returned in 1914 or 1918 for an inspection (of the Temple) and judged a group as ready for a greater assignment. But now Jesus arrives in 1914, to makes an assignment, but remains present to arrive later to make a judgment and greater appointments over all his belongings. Obviously the whole thing was turned into a mess in order to twist 1914 and 1919 into the mix, but it doesn't work anymore, because Jesus never departs after making the assignments.
    And of course, in the Watchtower version, we have now eliminated the evil slave as a non-existent hypothetical, even though Jesus always considered two three or four or even more slaves, each one according to his work. The Watchtower avoids Luke's version altogether because it might require thinking about who is represented by the non-existent hypothetical second slave who gets punished severely, and the third non-existent hypothetical slave who gets many strokes, and the fourth non-existent hypothetical slave that gets few strokes.
    But here's the most indiscreet part:
    No one is declared the "faithful and wise servant" until after that judgment by Jesus. None of them were supposed to presumptuously claim that they were already to be identified as that slave and that any chance of becoming evil or punished is only hypothetical or non-existent. It's up to Jesus to make that judgment when he returns.
    And of course this points up another major flaw when we claim that this final judgment as faithful results in appointment over all his belongings. At this point, the Watchtower explains that we are no longer talking about the FDS anymore, but the time when ALL the anointed, the GB along with the other 143,966 anointed, are equally appointed over all his belongings at the same time. (With no concern over who those other classes of faithful, less faithful, and unfaithful servants might have been.)
  20. Haha
    JW Insider got a reaction from JOHN BUTLER in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    This is, in fact, a pretty easy question to answer. You did hit the nail on the head, as it were, with the definition of "discreet."
    Here's where we can begin to see why.
    The primary Watchtower that changed our current definition of the FDS was back in July 15, 2013. The article claimed that the FDS was now specifically and uniquely associated with the Governing Body. There we see the following, which I am including again here, not for you, but mostly for those who might not have read it carefully.
    *** w13 7/15 p. 20 par. 3 “Who Really Is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?” ***
    In the past, our publications have said the following: At Pentecost 33 C.E., Jesus appointed the faithful slave over his domestics. The slave represents all anointed Christians on earth as a group at any one time since then. The domestics refer to the same anointed ones as individuals. In 1919, Jesus appointed the faithful slave “over all his belongings”—all his earthly Kingdom interests.
    The first part of that old view goes back to Russell: that all of the anointed made up the faithful slave. Russell kept that view from 1879 to until about 1897. The assumption was that they would be appointed over all his belongings at the time of their resurrection. Then, in 1897, Russell discreetly published an article stating that the slave was only one person, one individual. Then, very indiscreetly, began publishing letters and articles that addressed himself as that faithful and wise servant (FDS), allowed himself to be referred to like this at conventions, and began referring to the Watchtower publications as "food at the proper time" or "meat in due season."
    Watchtower publications have said that Russell personally admitted to being the FDS in private. The publications have also stated that, when asked, he would sometimes respond: "Some say the Society is [that servant] . . . some say that I am."
    An attempt to apply another faithful steward parable to Rutherford began shortly after Russell died. But Rutherford himself continued to teach that Russell had personally been that faithful and wise servant. 
    That didn't last more than a decade, though, because Rutherford went back to Russell's original view that all the 144,000 made up the faithful slave class, and that they fed one another, including themselves, as the domestics. Later it was added that 1919 had been the year that they were appointed over all Christ's belongings. By the 1950's, the "governing body" as the representative officers of the Watch Tower Society began associating themselves more directly with the work of that "faithful and discreet slave."
    *** w58 1/15 pp. 45-47 pars. 17-23 Overseers in Apocalyptic Times ***
    Can it still be true that the holy spirit appoints overseers over the congregations of true Christians today? Since the spirit is God’s invisible active force and is silent and unfeelable, how could we be sure that the appointing of overseers is by it today? The Holy Bible, God’s Word, makes this certain.. . .  Since 1919 God’s organization has risen up to let the light of his glory shine amid the gross darkness of this world, and the time has come for the fulfillment of his promise: “I will . . . make thy chiefs peaceful and thine overseers righteous.” (Isa. 60:1, 2, 17, AS; LXX; Thomson; Bagster) We are living also in the time of final fulfillment of the prophecy to which the apostle Peter referred on the day of Pentecost, namely: “It shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit.” (Joel 2:28, 29, AS; Acts 2:16-18) We should therefore expect the spirit’s activity to include appointing overseers.
    19 As in the days of the apostles, the Christian flock of Jehovah God has over it a visible governing body. It acts for and in expression of the “faithful and discreet slave” whom Jesus Christ has appointed since coming into his kingdom in the heavens in 1914. When warning his apostles about his coming for the judgment of his followers at an unknown hour in the time of the end of this old world, Jesus said: “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.” (Matt. 24:45-47) Since 1919 this “faithful and discreet slave,” who is a composite person made up of all anointed Christian joint heirs of Jesus Christ, has been taking care of “all his belongings” on earth. The slave has been faithfully giving out the spiritual, Biblical food at the proper time, so that there is no spiritual famine among the Christian witnesses of Jehovah. To make this “faithful and discreet slave” class equal to their heavy responsibilities in these last days, God through Christ has poured out his spirit upon them in these last days, in complete fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy.
    20 The governing body of the “faithful and discreet slave” class is taken from the members of this same anointed, spirit-filled class. By God’s spirit it is functioning. So, then, when the appointment of overseers is made by this governing body in harmony with the requirements laid down for overseers, it is really by the spirit that such overseers are appointed, although through human intermediaries. As the modern history of Jehovah’s witnesses shows, this is specially true since 1932, when the system of elective elders and deacons [ministerial servants] was done away with in their congregations.
    21 The governing body of mature members of the “faithful and discreet slave” class always seeks the guidance of God’s holy spirit in appointing responsible men in the congregations overseers, together with their assistants, the ministerial servants. They do not act according to any personal favoritism or any bias. . . .
    22 When, now, the governing body designates overseers that meet those plainly stated requirements, it is really the holy spirit that leads to the appointing of such overseers; it is really the holy spirit that makes such overseers. This fact becomes more evident when we note that it is also the fullness of the indwelling of the holy spirit in the candidate for the office of overseer that influences his appointment. The candidate must show that he is filled with the spirit by the way he conducts himself and his family (if he has one). . . .
    23 In consideration of the spirit’s fruitage produced by the candidate and in harmony with the written requirements set out in the Holy Scriptures written by men under the operation of the holy spirit, the governing body acts, being itself moved by the holy spirit for which it prays to God that it may guide the governing body. In every respect, then, the spirit of God comes to the fore in the matter of appointing overseers. So today as well as in Paul’s day it may be said that the holy spirit appoints overseers over the flock of God that he purchased “with the blood of his own Son.” (Acts 20:28, Schonfield) If in course of time any overseer turns out bad, we must remember that even Judas Iscariot, whom Jesus himself selected to be an apostolic overseer, turned out bad, betraying his own Overseer, the Chief Shepherd, to his enemies to be killed.
    I included a little extra from the context of the earlier Watchtower as foundation for discussing some related aspects such as the actual meaning of spirit-led organization, etc. But the main point is to keep in mind the two primary views most of us have held during our lifetime as Witnesses:
    (1950's-2013) The GB, especially since 1919, acts for and in expression of the FDS, which has included all the anointed since 33 CE., but which has been appointed over all Christ's belongings since 1919. (2013-present) The GB, since 1919, is now the same thing as the FDS, which no longer includes all the anointed, but only the GB, and has only been appointed since 1919, but will not be appointed over all Christ's belongings until a future time when all of the anointed are in heaven.
  21. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from JOHN BUTLER in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    Sorry about this, but I'm going to play the "Bible's Advocate" here for a bit. First of all, there is nothing to disagree with on any of those questions because the answer is given only with Scripture, not interpretation of those Scriptures. Not one of the questions mentions "the generation," nor 1914, nor 1919, nor 1922, nor the United Nations, nor the "great crowd," nor the "other sheep," nor the "anointed," nor the meaning of at least a thousand different prophetic interpretations.
    Even the question, about the Governing Body spells out no specific opinion to disagree with, because the term is never mentioned in any of the scriptures:
    *** od pp. 201-202 Part 3 Jehovah’s Arrangement of Things ***
    12. What is the Governing Body of the Christian congregation, and what role does it fill today?
    “Some men came down from Judea and began to teach the brothers: ‘Unless you get circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.’ But after quite a bit of dissension and disputing by Paul and Barnabas with them, it was arranged for Paul, Barnabas, and some of the others to go up to the apostles and elders in Jerusalem regarding this issue.”—Acts 15:1, 2.
    “As they traveled on through the cities, they would deliver to them for observance the decrees that had been decided on by the apostles and the elders who were in Jerusalem. Then, indeed, the congregations continued to be made firm in the faith and to increase in number day by day.”—Acts 16:4, 5.
    “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on coming finds him doing so! Truly I say to you, he will appoint him over all his belongings.”—Matt. 24:45-47.
    If anyone had studied the verses in Matt 24:45-47 carefully, along with the Watchtower's explanation, I would think it should have been obvious to them that the Governing Body cannot currently claim to be that faithful slave of Matt 24:45. So the question itself, when applied to the Scripture, would only go so far as to indicate that the Governing Body, like all good Christians, would only HOPE they are faithfully participating in fulfilling a role of a faithful and discreet slave.
    The reason, of course, has already been explained, but I'm always willing to explain again.
  22. Downvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Foreigner in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    I know of a couple of Witnesses who were both disfellowshipped based on the ZERO-witness policy. Both were very good friends of mine, and were about my age. One never tried to be reinstated, and neither are JWs today.
    This was 1976. He was about 19, and was considered a spiritually weak, immature brother who had delayed getting baptized until just that year, and his father wasn't a Witness. He began dating a sister, 18, who had just begun regular pioneering. The gossip was tough on her from the beginning because neither her own family or many others in the congregation thought she should date a young, newly baptized, irregular publisher if she wanted to continue pioneering. He was accused of finally getting baptized just so he could date her.
    She worked in a hospital in the city on some kind of "candy striper" program that had turning into an internship, and she had to work til about midnight, and didn't drive, and wanted to stay in the city near the hospital. My parents had sold our country house in 1975 and had just moved into the city to rent, so that my mother could also pioneer. I had already moved to another congregation about 100 miles away where my brother had started a business. So my parents would often give this sister my old room in the rented city house.
    One night she stayed overnight with the brother she was dating at his home (when his parents were away). She claimed that they hadn't even gone on a date that night, that nothing happened, and it was just for temporary convenience that she remained there after falling asleep. She normally would have come to our house that night and slept in my old room. He also claimed that nothing had happened. They claimed it was one of those "Wake up little Susie, wake up!" situations after both of them fell asleep.
    Well, my parents had already informed her parents that she hadn't come to our house that night.  (This was pre-cell phone days.) Her parents ended up finding out she was at the brother's house at around 5 am. She normally got up early from our house and got a ride home in the daytime.
    They were disfellowshipped for fornication, even though both of them denied it. They were obviously not repentant because both of them denied it. She had admitted staying at his house. He was the one who tried to get reinstated. He called me at Bethel the next year to ask about what might be done since he had not realized that he could have appealed it. I visited him on a summer off from Bethel in 1977 and he got reinstated within a few weeks after that. His own father WANTED him to stay disfellowshipped because he thought it would discourage him from going back to the Witnesses. He got reinstated, but was bitter about it. I have no idea if anything actually happened that night, but he (and she) always denied that anything at all happened.
  23. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from James Thomas Rook Jr. in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    With the above as the basis, we can now begin to see an issue with the explanation.
    After arriving in 1914, Jesus was supposed to have appointed the GB as the FDS in 1919. But the original parable is about Jesus appointing the FDS and then departing for an unknown amount of time.
    If Jesus arrived in 1914, and appointed the FDS in 1919, then when did he depart?  Where did he depart to? For a time, after 1916, Rutherford got very quiet about the 40 years of harvest running from 1874 to 1914, and, in fact, he changed those 40 years, and made them run from 1878 to 1918.  At the time, recall, 1914 was still considered an embarrassing, failed expectation. It had not yet been tied to any invisible presence [still 1874] or the start of Christ's Kingdom [still 1878], or the casting down of Satan. And the "first resurrection" was not yet tied to 1918; it was still 1881. So Rutherford would soon begin to speak of Jesus having "arrived" in 1918 for the inspection and cleansing of the Temple. In spite of a great European War in 1914, it was pretty clear to Rutherford that nothing Biblically significant had happened in 1914. That was supposed to be the final VISIBLE manifestation of an invisible presence that started 40 years earlier. After inspection, 1919 would be the new fresh start. In the early 1920's, Rutherford reaffirmed the chronology, including 1874, 1878, 1881, and 1914 in preparation for the sureness of his 1925 prediction. But he also said that there was more proof for 1925 than there had been for 1914.
    So now we move onto the details. Luke says there are four classes of slave:
    Faithful and Discreet who will be appointed over all belongings on the Master's arrival Unfaithful Slave who will be beaten with greatest severity Understanding Slave who didn't get ready and is beaten with many strokes Misunderstanding Slave who gets beaten with few strokes. This of course matches the parable of the talents where a master makes appointments to various servants, and a NWT cross-reference points us to Matthew 25:
    (Matthew 25:14-30) . . .“For it is just like a man about to travel abroad who summoned his slaves and entrusted his belongings to them. 15 He gave five talents to one, two to another, and one to still another, to each according to his own ability, and he went abroad. . . . 19 “After a long time, the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. 20 So the one who had received the five talents came forward and brought five additional talents, . . . 21 His master said to him: ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You were faithful over a few things. I will appoint you over many things. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 Next the one who had received the two talents . . . 23 His master said to him: ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You were faithful over a few things. I will appoint you over many things. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 “Finally the slave who had received the one talent . . . In reply his master said to him: ‘Wicked and sluggish slave, . . . 29 For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance. But the one who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 30 And throw the good-for-nothing slave out into the darkness outside.. . .
    It ends with an idea similar to the way Luke ends the parable of the faithful and wise steward:
    (Luke 12:48) . . .Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him.
    In fact, we have a situation in several parables (marriage feast, where the idea is always that the Master makes an appointment over some of his belongings to his servants, and then the master departs to travel abroad, and then the master returns (at a time they didn't expect) and the Master judges those slaves.
    Another short one is in Mark (the doorkeeper), where Jesus gives authority to his slaves, to each one his work.
    (Mark 13:34) It is like a man traveling abroad who left his house and gave the authority to his slaves, to each one his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to keep on the watch. 35 Keep on the watch, therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether late in the day or at midnight or before dawn or early in the morning, 36 in order that when he comes suddenly, he does not find you sleeping.
    Back when Jesus departed in 33 to travel abroad, these parables made more sense. After all he assigned persons like Peter to "feed his little sheep" in 33 CE and then departed. He then returned in 1914 or 1918 for an inspection (of the Temple) and judged a group as ready for a greater assignment. But now Jesus arrives in 1914, to makes an assignment, but remains present to arrive later to make a judgment and greater appointments over all his belongings. Obviously the whole thing was turned into a mess in order to twist 1914 and 1919 into the mix, but it doesn't work anymore, because Jesus never departs after making the assignments.
    And of course, in the Watchtower version, we have now eliminated the evil slave as a non-existent hypothetical, even though Jesus always considered two three or four or even more slaves, each one according to his work. The Watchtower avoids Luke's version altogether because it might require thinking about who is represented by the non-existent hypothetical second slave who gets punished severely, and the third non-existent hypothetical slave who gets many strokes, and the fourth non-existent hypothetical slave that gets few strokes.
    But here's the most indiscreet part:
    No one is declared the "faithful and wise servant" until after that judgment by Jesus. None of them were supposed to presumptuously claim that they were already to be identified as that slave and that any chance of becoming evil or punished is only hypothetical or non-existent. It's up to Jesus to make that judgment when he returns.
    And of course this points up another major flaw when we claim that this final judgment as faithful results in appointment over all his belongings. At this point, the Watchtower explains that we are no longer talking about the FDS anymore, but the time when ALL the anointed, the GB along with the other 143,966 anointed, are equally appointed over all his belongings at the same time. (With no concern over who those other classes of faithful, less faithful, and unfaithful servants might have been.)
  24. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from ComfortMyPeople in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    Quite the opposite. I stated that I think the GB have a desire to do God's work and to obey God, and that they are worthy of double honor (especially as they work hard in speaking and teaching). They have reached out for the office of overseer, and as the scripture I quoted states, they are therefore desirous of a fine work. This is their goal, as I stated:
    Somehow you decided that this means they are not worthy?
    My concern was that a few of these men, evidently, have also succumbed to some ideas, based on doctrinal traditions that have been handed down to us since at least Rutherford's time. Those traditions include trying to maneuver 1914 into Jesus' parables even when it becomes clear that it won't work. They have therefore cornered themselves into making a declaration of their own righteousness and faithfulness in a presumptuous manner rather than faithfully and discreetly waiting upon Jesus to make that judgment.
    This is just a false step that our brothers have taken, presumably before they were aware of it. Many Witnesses have noticed this. I would assume that thousands have noticed this and are therefore concerned. In fact, I now think that the GB themselves are aware of this doctrinal conundrum and have begun trying to extricate themselves. The first step is admitting that it is presumptuous to declare a specific group or class as Jehovah's "sole channel." Then admitting that many of the doctrines through the years have been false, and that even current doctrines and procedures are subject to error.  And if we are aware of a false step, our responsibility is to say something.
    *** od p. 193 Part 2 Jehovah’s Righteous Requirements ***
    25. In addition to confessing his own sins, each person has what responsibility regarding serious wrongdoing by others that could threaten the spiritual or moral cleanness of the congregation?
    “If someone sins because he has heard a public call to testify and he is a witness or has seen or learned about it and he does not report it, then he will answer for his error.”—Lev. 5:1.
     
  25. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from ComfortMyPeople in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    This is, in fact, a pretty easy question to answer. You did hit the nail on the head, as it were, with the definition of "discreet."
    Here's where we can begin to see why.
    The primary Watchtower that changed our current definition of the FDS was back in July 15, 2013. The article claimed that the FDS was now specifically and uniquely associated with the Governing Body. There we see the following, which I am including again here, not for you, but mostly for those who might not have read it carefully.
    *** w13 7/15 p. 20 par. 3 “Who Really Is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?” ***
    In the past, our publications have said the following: At Pentecost 33 C.E., Jesus appointed the faithful slave over his domestics. The slave represents all anointed Christians on earth as a group at any one time since then. The domestics refer to the same anointed ones as individuals. In 1919, Jesus appointed the faithful slave “over all his belongings”—all his earthly Kingdom interests.
    The first part of that old view goes back to Russell: that all of the anointed made up the faithful slave. Russell kept that view from 1879 to until about 1897. The assumption was that they would be appointed over all his belongings at the time of their resurrection. Then, in 1897, Russell discreetly published an article stating that the slave was only one person, one individual. Then, very indiscreetly, began publishing letters and articles that addressed himself as that faithful and wise servant (FDS), allowed himself to be referred to like this at conventions, and began referring to the Watchtower publications as "food at the proper time" or "meat in due season."
    Watchtower publications have said that Russell personally admitted to being the FDS in private. The publications have also stated that, when asked, he would sometimes respond: "Some say the Society is [that servant] . . . some say that I am."
    An attempt to apply another faithful steward parable to Rutherford began shortly after Russell died. But Rutherford himself continued to teach that Russell had personally been that faithful and wise servant. 
    That didn't last more than a decade, though, because Rutherford went back to Russell's original view that all the 144,000 made up the faithful slave class, and that they fed one another, including themselves, as the domestics. Later it was added that 1919 had been the year that they were appointed over all Christ's belongings. By the 1950's, the "governing body" as the representative officers of the Watch Tower Society began associating themselves more directly with the work of that "faithful and discreet slave."
    *** w58 1/15 pp. 45-47 pars. 17-23 Overseers in Apocalyptic Times ***
    Can it still be true that the holy spirit appoints overseers over the congregations of true Christians today? Since the spirit is God’s invisible active force and is silent and unfeelable, how could we be sure that the appointing of overseers is by it today? The Holy Bible, God’s Word, makes this certain.. . .  Since 1919 God’s organization has risen up to let the light of his glory shine amid the gross darkness of this world, and the time has come for the fulfillment of his promise: “I will . . . make thy chiefs peaceful and thine overseers righteous.” (Isa. 60:1, 2, 17, AS; LXX; Thomson; Bagster) We are living also in the time of final fulfillment of the prophecy to which the apostle Peter referred on the day of Pentecost, namely: “It shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit.” (Joel 2:28, 29, AS; Acts 2:16-18) We should therefore expect the spirit’s activity to include appointing overseers.
    19 As in the days of the apostles, the Christian flock of Jehovah God has over it a visible governing body. It acts for and in expression of the “faithful and discreet slave” whom Jesus Christ has appointed since coming into his kingdom in the heavens in 1914. When warning his apostles about his coming for the judgment of his followers at an unknown hour in the time of the end of this old world, Jesus said: “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.” (Matt. 24:45-47) Since 1919 this “faithful and discreet slave,” who is a composite person made up of all anointed Christian joint heirs of Jesus Christ, has been taking care of “all his belongings” on earth. The slave has been faithfully giving out the spiritual, Biblical food at the proper time, so that there is no spiritual famine among the Christian witnesses of Jehovah. To make this “faithful and discreet slave” class equal to their heavy responsibilities in these last days, God through Christ has poured out his spirit upon them in these last days, in complete fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy.
    20 The governing body of the “faithful and discreet slave” class is taken from the members of this same anointed, spirit-filled class. By God’s spirit it is functioning. So, then, when the appointment of overseers is made by this governing body in harmony with the requirements laid down for overseers, it is really by the spirit that such overseers are appointed, although through human intermediaries. As the modern history of Jehovah’s witnesses shows, this is specially true since 1932, when the system of elective elders and deacons [ministerial servants] was done away with in their congregations.
    21 The governing body of mature members of the “faithful and discreet slave” class always seeks the guidance of God’s holy spirit in appointing responsible men in the congregations overseers, together with their assistants, the ministerial servants. They do not act according to any personal favoritism or any bias. . . .
    22 When, now, the governing body designates overseers that meet those plainly stated requirements, it is really the holy spirit that leads to the appointing of such overseers; it is really the holy spirit that makes such overseers. This fact becomes more evident when we note that it is also the fullness of the indwelling of the holy spirit in the candidate for the office of overseer that influences his appointment. The candidate must show that he is filled with the spirit by the way he conducts himself and his family (if he has one). . . .
    23 In consideration of the spirit’s fruitage produced by the candidate and in harmony with the written requirements set out in the Holy Scriptures written by men under the operation of the holy spirit, the governing body acts, being itself moved by the holy spirit for which it prays to God that it may guide the governing body. In every respect, then, the spirit of God comes to the fore in the matter of appointing overseers. So today as well as in Paul’s day it may be said that the holy spirit appoints overseers over the flock of God that he purchased “with the blood of his own Son.” (Acts 20:28, Schonfield) If in course of time any overseer turns out bad, we must remember that even Judas Iscariot, whom Jesus himself selected to be an apostolic overseer, turned out bad, betraying his own Overseer, the Chief Shepherd, to his enemies to be killed.
    I included a little extra from the context of the earlier Watchtower as foundation for discussing some related aspects such as the actual meaning of spirit-led organization, etc. But the main point is to keep in mind the two primary views most of us have held during our lifetime as Witnesses:
    (1950's-2013) The GB, especially since 1919, acts for and in expression of the FDS, which has included all the anointed since 33 CE., but which has been appointed over all Christ's belongings since 1919. (2013-present) The GB, since 1919, is now the same thing as the FDS, which no longer includes all the anointed, but only the GB, and has only been appointed since 1919, but will not be appointed over all Christ's belongings until a future time when all of the anointed are in heaven.
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