JW Insider

The 144,000 is a yawner. Nobody cares. I never go there.
To clarify a little, some care, but it is analagous to the wonks on media absolutely obsessed over the doings of government and all its machinations, imagining that they reflect the interest of the ordinary people whose greatest hope towards government is that it will pave the roads, jail the bad guys, keep a few of its promises, and otherwise stay out of their hair.
A handful throughout history go on to rule with Christ in heaven. Good. It means the heavenly government has more of a feel for humanity than otherwise, first observed by the fact that the king himself did time as a human. 
That's all anyone really cares about, as they envision how God's Kingdom will bring relief from the individual woes and travesties they suffer on earth. I barely go further with the 144,000 unless someone insists about it. 

I'm not sure what you mean by that
I understand what you are saying and believe you are right to some extent. It depends on the person I think though. For example non of the friends that I know seem to be too worried about the conditions during the great tribulation, me included. I can't speak for the others, because I have not discussed this to any depth, but what I find disconcerting is that this "future obedience" is being used as the reason to "obey now". I would think that a sufficient reason would be that without cooperation (I prefer that expression to obedience, because children are expected to be obedient to parents, but adults should be expected to cooperate with other adults) we could not accomplish much. I mean it's common sense. Why the need to emphasize a situation which is based on Biblical examples for survival of the past in the Hebrew scriptures, but doesn't have much support in the Gospels or the rest of the Greek scriptures? Most of the time we do not talk about the need to obey instructions in order to be saved. But it is mentioned every now and again, it was mentioned at this year's summer convention. On the other hand, this weeks mid meeting work book under the section  "We must prepare spiritually so that our deliverance will be assured" makes no mention of  obedience to some instructions but says these are the things which will help us get saved: "developing TRUST IN JEHOVAH, which gives us COURAGE, which leads us to a POSITIVE ATTITUDE, which coupled with BROTHERLY LOVE enables us to ENCOURAGE fellow believers."  (based on Luke 21:28) That makes much more sense to me and follows more what Jesus had in mind. It seems like this "obedience to instructions" is thrown in there randomly every once in a while, without real basis.....
 
You have a point
Yes. And I think it's already backfiring to a small extent. Although I know quite a few elderly brothers and sisters who are as faithful as ever and are reconciled with the fact that they may die before the new system comes. Some of their children on the other hand are finding it more difficult...
Yes indeed:
What happens to a dream deferred?

Does it dry up
like a raisin in the sun?
Or fester like a sore--
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over--
like a syrupy sweet?

Maybe it just sags
like a heavy load.

Or does it explode?”

Many sincere brothers now are quick to defend the mistakes of the past by saying that the number of little ones who were stumbled was actually a good thing. We've seem multiple comments on this forum that make that claim. As the misguided logic goes, with 1975, for example, it was a kind of test that only stumbled those who were serving Jehovah with a date in mind.
To be fair, I think all this talk about the importance of obedience to men is a mistake. It is not hooked to anything so tangible as a calendar date so fewer people will be stumbled outright. But more people will be disheartened over time without being able to put their finger on exactly why. In my opinion it will be because they probably anticipated that association with fellow Witnesses would continue to enhance their love for Jehovah God and Jesus Christ in an overwhelmingly positive, uplifting, encouraging and heartwarming way.
In this case, perhaps the brothers in the lead feel that they need to cover all the bases, and prepare us for unknown possibilities. The problem, in my opinion, is that this emphasis on the importance of obedience to men has now been associated (e.g., summer conventions) with a kind of future "fear-mongering" about the conditions we can expect during the great tribulation. It creates an even heavier load by making us overly concerned about the next day, when we would prefer to think that seeking first the Kingdom would have freed us from such anxiety, throwing our burden upon Jehovah, knowing that Christ's load is light, and his yoke is kind.
(Matthew 6:33, 34) 33 “Keep on, then, seeking first the Kingdom and his righteousness, and all these other things will be added to you. 34 So never be anxious about the next day, for the next day will have its own anxieties. Each day has enough of its own troubles. But this makes it appear to serve the exact same purpose as 1975. This time, by associating these unspecified ways in which we will need to show obedience to men with a certain level of fear-mongering about the great tribulation, we will pay more than the usual attention to men. It should have the effect of ratcheting up the activity and anticipation by making the end seem even more imminent.
It reminds me of an experience at Bethel when I once had an opportunity to question Brother Franz about his plan to have us study a 1973 book a second time in 1981.
*** km 11/80 pp. 1-3 par. 5 Part I—Congregation Meetings ***
CONGREGATION BOOK STUDY: In January we will start studying the book God’s Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approached. This 416-page book, published in 1973, contains vital information that is even more apropos now than when it was first released. Think of the hundreds of thousands of new ones who have been baptized since it was first published. My question was about whether we needed a new edition to change some inaccuracies, or whether it would go into print using the old press plates. His response was basically that we needed no update to it because "this is what the publishers need right now." [The book was basically a history of the Watchtower Society wedged into what are now half-obsolete explanations of Matthew 25.] But his idea was that it would somehow make people appreciate the Society, its place in our time, and therefore raise the level of activity.
So ultimately I think that the pendulum will swing the other way again, and there will be a kind of retraction of this method of making the end seem so imminent as a way to raise activity levels. The Bible indicates that this method can backfire.
(Proverbs 13:12) 12 Expectation postponed makes the heart sick,. . . Langston Hughes agreed:
*** g94 5/22 p. 27 Put Humor Into Your Life ***
Poet Langston Hughes once wrote: “Like a welcome summer rain, humor may suddenly cleanse and cool the earth, the air, and you.” Oh wait, not that one, but his famous one: "What happens to a dream deferred?"
Of course, those who become disheartened (over the current emphasis) will likely be "chalked up to" the fact that this served as a test to get rid of those who were not worthy. For most, including myself, the overall context of these "changes" is not as bad as I just represented it, since the overall point is not to fear men, but to expect Jehovah to come to our aid when the trouble seems completely overwhelming. But unfortunately, I fear that even the perceived combination of emphasis on "obedience to men" and "fear-mongering" will combine to create a new kind of burden that will not appear to reflect the true spirit of Christianity. 

Old Smothers Brothers joke went something like this:
Tom: My uncle died of natural causes. Dick: Oh really? When, where, tell me more? Tom: Yep. He got hit by a truck. Dick: Got hit by a truck? I thought you said it was natural causes. Tom: Well . . . . It was a dirt road.

These are exactly the kinds of situations where the protocol can go out the window. I don't know the status of this person, but you could probably call the WTS/CCJW and find out. Anecdotally, going back about 40 years and another situation going back 5 years, I know about a couple cases where the congregation was asked to DF someone "in absentia" to mitigate a possible crime scandal.
Also, in effect, all Witnesses who had previously disassociated were disfellowshipped "in absentia" in the early 1980's. This was a necessary change in order to be able to create protocol for disfellowshipping R.Franz. He was caught eating a meal with his employer who had previously disassociated himself. Making the two different statuses equal would mean that he was now eating a meal with someone who had been disfellowshipped which therefore made R.Franz subject to disfellowshipping.

Agree but perhaps why Pella is mentioned is because that is where most of the Christians went or perhaps that is where the "Apostles" went - again it is all conjecture. My only point is that the caves may have been used by more than just Jews and therefore Jewish Christians. Most if not all the mss left there were from Jews but why couldn't other religious groups such as Jewish Christians {Apostles} been there. {Likely the Apostles were in Jerusalem in 66 C.E. as just a few years prior the issue in Acts 15 came up they went to the Apostles and elders in "Jerusalem". 

I understand what you are saying. I, for one, appreciate the theory because it takes some good independent thinking to come up with a theory that is outside the norm. I like testing theories along with available evidence because it helps to either confirm or weaken the prevailing theories. In this case, I wasn't saying it was impossible that some Christians might have gone a few miles out their way to visit the caves of the Dead Sea, but I was commenting on the "sureness" of the statement about what the Christians, in fact, did. You didn't say that they might have, or that they probably did. You just said that they did travel right past, not just the caves in general, but Cave 4 specifically.
This is therefore used as if it is solid evidence to feed a theory, when it is conjecture utilized to feed a theory. For that matter, there was a road to Jericho from Jerusalem and we do not know that it touched the Dead Sea and Jordan, even if it might have. Also, it is only extra-Biblical conjecture that the Christians generally fled to Pella. When Jesus said to flee to the mountains, there were actually hills all around Jerusalem, and one of the few directions they could travel "away" from mountains would have been toward the Jordan Valley and Dead Sea. You can see that by looking at the terrain relief map you provided. It seems that someone could have just as easily used Jesus' words as evidence that Christians, in general, would not have immediately traveled to the valley, but would have headed toward mountains and hills instead.
These are interesting ideas about Christians using Qumram and the vicinity, or the date of this particular scroll (4Q120), or the value of the evidence that Church Fathers knew about IAO. The strength and value of such ideas is always worth considering but from what I've seen so far, none of it helps your overall theory. But again, all of the things we state are just opinions here, so I hope you will feel welcome to put any ideas here that you want to consider.

That wasn't me. It was someone else who gave the tip about the TOR browser. Also, it's much better to just recognize that there is no such thing as perfect anonymity. The TOR browser, for all we know, is promoted surreptitiously by government agencies because of their own ability to exploit weaknesses in it while tempting people to use it for dishonest and nefarious purposes. Better to just be honest and know that all things hidden can easily come to light.

That wasn't me. It was someone else who gave the tip about the TOR browser. Also, it's much better to just recognize that there is no such thing as perfect anonymity. The TOR browser, for all we know, is promoted surreptitiously by government agencies because of their own ability to exploit weaknesses in it while tempting people to use it for dishonest and nefarious purposes. Better to just be honest and know that all things hidden can easily come to light.

That wasn't me. It was someone else who gave the tip about the TOR browser. Also, it's much better to just recognize that there is no such thing as perfect anonymity. The TOR browser, for all we know, is promoted surreptitiously by government agencies because of their own ability to exploit weaknesses in it while tempting people to use it for dishonest and nefarious purposes. Better to just be honest and know that all things hidden can easily come to light.

These are exactly the kinds of situations where the protocol can go out the window. I don't know the status of this person, but you could probably call the WTS/CCJW and find out. Anecdotally, going back about 40 years and another situation going back 5 years, I know about a couple cases where the congregation was asked to DF someone "in absentia" to mitigate a possible crime scandal.
Also, in effect, all Witnesses who had previously disassociated were disfellowshipped "in absentia" in the early 1980's. This was a necessary change in order to be able to create protocol for disfellowshipping R.Franz. He was caught eating a meal with his employer who had previously disassociated himself. Making the two different statuses equal would mean that he was now eating a meal with someone who had been disfellowshipped which therefore made R.Franz subject to disfellowshipping.

Don't misunderstand. It's not an out-and-out fraud. It's just that what is shown here was rewritten to supposedly have more impact on Witnesses. The updated case information which is also linked from one of the usmarshals.gov pages shows the person to be considered a true candidate for the 15 most wanted. I would have had no problem with almost all the same information shown from the original sources. It was almost identical. But there are dangers in trying to manipulate something like this. One danger is that people can start to focus on the inaccuracies and not see the greater picture.
(Just as an aside, I find it odd that it focuses on the US and Canada, when it's so easy for an America citizen to hop on a "metro" in San Diego and get to Mexico in just a few minutes.)

Yes. But I'll tell you the real problem I have with manipulating information. And I'm not saying you are the source of the manipulation. First of all, it's no longer "truth" in the most appropriate sense. If something purports to be from a specific source, then anyone who changes that source is putting words in the mouth of someone else. It's therefore the same as a misquote. Since it has very similar meaning, it's more of a paraphrase, but even a paraphrase should identify itself as such.
In the long run, it often weakens the impact of information even when people think it strengthens the impact. Imagine what would happen if a person has excellent information about some mistakes the Watch Tower Society was making. Imagine that some of these, if taken seriously by the WTS, could result in fairness and justice for thousands of people who are now being treated inconsistently and unjustly. There were persons who publicly pointed out the inconsistency between the WTS political stance in Malawi vs. Mexico, for example. But by pointing it out, the WTS may have taken quicker steps to fix the problem they had created in Mexico. And in many other countries around the world, thousands were being unjustly imprisoned for the specific choices they were told that they could and could not conscientiously take with respect to alternative civil service. They, the GB, had already decided that it wasn't that important or even Biblical to hold onto the old traditional practice, and that a change could happen as soon as they found the time to vote on it again. But it was put off for a couple of more years, until a very public reminder was published in an infamous book by an ex-JW. In the meantime, during the delay, hundreds more JWs were unjustly imprisoned, but as soon as the GB voted again, the problem was taken care of just as the ex-JW had said. So what would have happened if that particular ex-JW had a reputation for manipulating information. Obviously, it would have been easy to ignore what he said, and just say that it was more lies from ex-JW apostates. Information can have value no matter where it comes from. Why weaken the value with manipulation?
Also, in the specific case above where some JW-focused information was added, it came across as both pejorative and smart-aleck. Even flippant in the sense of borrowing slightly from the advertising slogan: "Coming to a theater near you!" This gives the impression that whoever wrote it wanted to "stick it" to JWs in particular. This can "back-fire" having a devaluing effect on the value of the information. It is useful to know that there may now be up to SEVENTEEN different victims and that one of them was abused perhaps 100 times. This is important information. But a lot of JWs might look at this poster and say:
"Look how we are being picked on talking about "Kingdom Halls" like that. Look how they are going after us unfairly. Look how they focus on Kingdom Halls. I wonder if they would say the same about using churches as a hiding place to find sanctuary." Maybe they would; I don't know. But I do know that everyone has a certain amount of defensiveness that is natural for people of the same "tribe." Our tribe is our worldwide organization, and many Witnesses are quick to defend and grasp at straws to do so. Don't make up evidence. The real evidence is all people need.
(See updated news release on this same criminal here: https://www.usmarshals.gov/news/chron/2009/122909.htm )

The wanted poster supposedly uses the phrase: "McLean uses Kingdom Halls as cover to hide and may be in a Kingdom Hall near you!" Not to take anything away from the man's crimes, but this struck me as a "gloss" intended to speak more directly to JWs. So I checked it against the actual wanted poster and the phrase does not show up there https://www.usmarshals.gov/investigations/most_wanted/mclean/mclean15.pdf
That and a few other small things on the picture above makes it look like this was a specially made version just to share with JWs. (There are multiple typos, misspellings, and capitalization problems on the updated wanted poster, which don't show up on any of the actual wanted posters.)

Years ago, a man was standing before a Judge, accused of multiple accounts of Bigamy.
He apparently had seven wives in different parts of town.
The logistics of this caused the Judge to ask  how could he possibly manage that.
The man said "I have a bicycle".

... that's why when I am sitting at a computer for hours at a time, as I did at work for about 30 years, I carefully avoid sitting on my brain.

Yes. But I'll tell you the real problem I have with manipulating information. And I'm not saying you are the source of the manipulation. First of all, it's no longer "truth" in the most appropriate sense. If something purports to be from a specific source, then anyone who changes that source is putting words in the mouth of someone else. It's therefore the same as a misquote. Since it has very similar meaning, it's more of a paraphrase, but even a paraphrase should identify itself as such.
In the long run, it often weakens the impact of information even when people think it strengthens the impact. Imagine what would happen if a person has excellent information about some mistakes the Watch Tower Society was making. Imagine that some of these, if taken seriously by the WTS, could result in fairness and justice for thousands of people who are now being treated inconsistently and unjustly. There were persons who publicly pointed out the inconsistency between the WTS political stance in Malawi vs. Mexico, for example. But by pointing it out, the WTS may have taken quicker steps to fix the problem they had created in Mexico. And in many other countries around the world, thousands were being unjustly imprisoned for the specific choices they were told that they could and could not conscientiously take with respect to alternative civil service. They, the GB, had already decided that it wasn't that important or even Biblical to hold onto the old traditional practice, and that a change could happen as soon as they found the time to vote on it again. But it was put off for a couple of more years, until a very public reminder was published in an infamous book by an ex-JW. In the meantime, during the delay, hundreds more JWs were unjustly imprisoned, but as soon as the GB voted again, the problem was taken care of just as the ex-JW had said. So what would have happened if that particular ex-JW had a reputation for manipulating information. Obviously, it would have been easy to ignore what he said, and just say that it was more lies from ex-JW apostates. Information can have value no matter where it comes from. Why weaken the value with manipulation?
Also, in the specific case above where some JW-focused information was added, it came across as both pejorative and smart-aleck. Even flippant in the sense of borrowing slightly from the advertising slogan: "Coming to a theater near you!" This gives the impression that whoever wrote it wanted to "stick it" to JWs in particular. This can "back-fire" having a devaluing effect on the value of the information. It is useful to know that there may now be up to SEVENTEEN different victims and that one of them was abused perhaps 100 times. This is important information. But a lot of JWs might look at this poster and say:
"Look how we are being picked on talking about "Kingdom Halls" like that. Look how they are going after us unfairly. Look how they focus on Kingdom Halls. I wonder if they would say the same about using churches as a hiding place to find sanctuary." Maybe they would; I don't know. But I do know that everyone has a certain amount of defensiveness that is natural for people of the same "tribe." Our tribe is our worldwide organization, and many Witnesses are quick to defend and grasp at straws to do so. Don't make up evidence. The real evidence is all people need.
(See updated news release on this same criminal here: https://www.usmarshals.gov/news/chron/2009/122909.htm )

I'll pick a fight with JTR and distract her. Though she might be on the bottle again and need no distraction.

I can always tell it's Allen by the questions marks that are put in odd places in a sentence....besides other things...but that's a dead giveaway

That's probably true, technically. I never believed your real name was Allen to begin with.?

That's probably true, technically. I never believed your real name was Allen to begin with.?

There are now dozens of ways to not only have random IPs each time you log in, but to even select the IP for a specific location. Some browsers like Chrome even allow plug-ins to keep the ruse going and keep the location from resetting. https://www.expressvpn.com/support/troubleshooting/spoof-location-google-chrome/
For those who can see the IP, it's not good etiquette to reveal someone else's location, even their spoofed location. But there is at least one person here who use several names, most of them spoofed to different locations, and uses them to be able to spam up-votes and down-votes. I know of one user who apparently keeps at least 15 different ID's ready to use at any time primarily so that he can put two and three down-votes and "HaHa" votes on posts he doesn't like, and a couple of up-votes on his own.
I actually think this is kind of humorous or even clever, so this is not said to get the person in any kind of trouble. I just mention it by way of explanation for those who may have received this kind of unusual voting attention for their posts.

Allen, I noticed that the IP address for "Gray Reformer" did indeed resolve to Canada, but only up until today. As of today it no longer resolves to Canada but to some other place. Just thought you might like to know that.

That's probably true, technically. I never believed your real name was Allen to begin with.?

There are now dozens of ways to not only have random IPs each time you log in, but to even select the IP for a specific location. Some browsers like Chrome even allow plug-ins to keep the ruse going and keep the location from resetting. https://www.expressvpn.com/support/troubleshooting/spoof-location-google-chrome/
For those who can see the IP, it's not good etiquette to reveal someone else's location, even their spoofed location. But there is at least one person here who use several names, most of them spoofed to different locations, and uses them to be able to spam up-votes and down-votes. I know of one user who apparently keeps at least 15 different ID's ready to use at any time primarily so that he can put two and three down-votes and "HaHa" votes on posts he doesn't like, and a couple of up-votes on his own.
I actually think this is kind of humorous or even clever, so this is not said to get the person in any kind of trouble. I just mention it by way of explanation for those who may have received this kind of unusual voting attention for their posts.