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JW Insider

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  1. Haha
    JW Insider reacted to TrueTomHarley in Jehovah’s Witnesses in Vietnam Welcome Trump on Sunday   
    Don't ever disappear like that again! We were worried sick! 
    I was concerned that you had taken Amos 7:12, which we just covered at the meeting, to heart:
    O visionary, go, run away to the land of wherever , earn your bread there, and there you may prophesy. But you must no longer prophesy [about]  Bethel.”
     
  2. Thanks
    JW Insider got a reaction from Anna in Jehovah’s Witnesses in Vietnam Welcome Trump on Sunday   
    I just got off the plane (from Vancouver) and saw the above when my wi-fi came back on.
    It's a fake story, of course. You can still see the picture as it was used in a newspaper article about 2 years ago.
    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/dec/1/donald-trump-touts-lifestyle-without-alcohol-drugs/
    The earliest appearance of the picture that I found is from December 1, 2015, when Trump was campaigning in New Hampshire. Someone might have thought that the girl looked Vietnamese, so the picture was used again to create "news" about his visit to Hanoi.
  3. Thanks
    JW Insider got a reaction from The Librarian in Jehovah’s Witnesses in Vietnam Welcome Trump on Sunday   
    I just got off the plane (from Vancouver) and saw the above when my wi-fi came back on.
    It's a fake story, of course. You can still see the picture as it was used in a newspaper article about 2 years ago.
    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/dec/1/donald-trump-touts-lifestyle-without-alcohol-drugs/
    The earliest appearance of the picture that I found is from December 1, 2015, when Trump was campaigning in New Hampshire. Someone might have thought that the girl looked Vietnamese, so the picture was used again to create "news" about his visit to Hanoi.
  4. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Arauna in 607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported?   
    Yes. A 70 year period that ended in 539 would have to have started around 609. And this is a pretty good match for when Babylonian power reared its head over Assyria. The capital of Nineveh fell in 612 and Babylon took advantage and became the next world power. 609 was the year that Josiah died. Josiah was considered by many Jews to be the next potential Messiah, a king like David.
    In fact, notice that 609 is exactly the year that the Watch Tower publications point to (indirectly) when it speaks of the end of the Assyrian empire. (Remember that the WTS arbitrarily adds 20 years to every date prior to 587 B.C.E., so that 607 B.C.E.is actually 587 B.C.E., and therefore 629 B.C.E. is actually 609 B.C.E.)
    *** it-1 p. 205 Assyria ***
    According to the same chronicle, in the 14th year of Nabopolassar (632 B.C.E.), Ashur-uballit II attempted to continue Assyrian rule from Haran as his capital city. This chronicle states, under the 17th year of Nabopolassar (629 B.C.E.): “In the month Duʼuzu, Ashur-uballit, king of Assyria, (and) a large [army of] E[gy]pt [who had come to his aid] crossed the river (Euphrates) and [marched on] to conquer Harran.” (Ancient Near Eastern Texts, p. 305; brackets and parentheses theirs.) Actually, Ashur-uballit was trying to reconquer it after having been driven out. This record is in harmony with the account relative to the activity of Pharaoh Nechoh recorded at 2 Kings 23:29, which activity resulted in the death of King Josiah of Judah (c. 629 B.C.E.). This text states that “Pharaoh Nechoh the king of Egypt came up to the king of Assyria by the river Euphrates”—evidently to help him. “The king of Assyria” to whom Nechoh came may well have been Ashur-uballit II. Their campaign against Haran did not succeed. The Assyrian Empire had ended. So this is an excellent match for the 70 years of Babylonian domination from 609 to 539, spoken about by Jeremiah:
    (Jeremiah 25:11, 12) 11 And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.”’ 12 “‘But when 70 years have been fulfilled, I will call to account the king of Babylon and that nation for their error,’ . . . Just as the Watch Tower publications have explained it in the "Isaiah's Prophecy" book:
    *** ip-1 chap. 19 p. 253 par. 21 Jehovah Profanes the Pride of Tyre ***
    “These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) . . . Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble.
    So that is ONE period of 70 years that started in 609 and ended in 539.
    The Bible, in the book of Zechariah, also mentions another period of 70 years that starts around 587 (destruction of Jerusalem) or even 588 when the siege began, and ends around 518. Since it's been so many months I'll repeat some portions of the post you referred to, where this was explained:
    ------- the remainder of this post copied from a previous post (JWI: 4/14/2017) above -------
    (Zechariah 1:12) . . .“O Jehovah of armies, how long will you withhold your mercy from Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with whom you have been indignant these 70 years?”
    (Zechariah 7:5) . . .‘When you fasted and wailed in the fifth month and in the seventh month for 70 years. . .
    (Zechariah 8:19) . . .‘The fast of the fourth month, the fast of the fifth month, the fast of the seventh month, and the fast of the tenth month will be occasions for exultation and joy for the house of Judah. . .
    *** w96 11/15 p. 5 Does God Require Fasting? ***
    For example, at one time the people of Judah had four annual fasts to commemorate the calamitous events associated with Jerusalem’s siege and desolation in the seventh century B.C.E. (2 Kings 25:1-4, 8, 9, 22-26; Zechariah 8:19)
    According to our current understanding of the chronology that includes the supposed destruction of Jerusalem in 607 BCE, then this produces a contradiction, because we date the book of Zechariah as follows:
    *** nwt p. 1662 Table of the Books of the Bible ***
    Zechariah
    Jerusalem rebuilt
    518
    520-518 [BCE]
    If Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 BCE, then 518 BCE is 69 years later, and therefore matches Zechariah's theme of 70 years of withheld mercy and indignities, and wailing and fasting over Jerusalem, which is now being rebuilt.
    If Jerusalem had been destroyed in 607 BCE, then by Zechariah's time, in 518 BCE, it would have been 89 years of wailing and fasting.
    Neither date is "Biblical" and neither date should really matter that much, but it is curious that 607 BCE is totally impossible from the perspective of secular evidence, and it becomes very difficult from the perspective of Biblical evidence. Yet 587 BCE is totally supported from the perspective of secular evidence and provides an excellent match to the Biblical evidence. There should really be no reason why we are not rejoicing that secular, historical, archaeological evidence for 587 BCE once again shows the Bible to be accurate and sound from a historical perspective.
  5. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in Sachenhausen Concentration Camp in Germany. A memory over our brother who was executed because Himmler wanted to make an example what will happen if you do not go out in war! ?   
    I have introduced MANY a Bible discussion about "War Heros" with men who know who Sgt. York, and Audie Murphy were, by putting August Dickmann's name in the middle, which of course they have never heard of.
    If you can give the story of all three men, it gives you INCREDIBLE credibility in a conversation, and it's not "preachy".
    As we learned in the Mid-week meeting, this is VERY important.
    But just as important ... is "he who teaches ... learns."
  6. Downvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Cognitionis in The ex-Jehovah's Witnesses shunned by their families (BBC report)   
    60 years in 8 different congregations in 3 states can offer up a few anomalies. My sister's experience was actually not so uncommon in the mid-west (Missouri) congregations I grew up in (1964-1976). But I've never personally heard of such things being covered up in the last 20 years. At the time, 1981, the elders seemed more concerned that my sister was going to tell the truth to the hospital staff, and this seemed to be their greatest fear. (Small towns revel in gossip and judgmentalism, so fears of public reproach on the congregation were very real.)
    The only truly "weird" disfellowshipping I ever got involved with (and on the "wrong" side, at that)  was that of a 90-year old brother because his friends asked me if I could do something about it, and maybe even help to initiate an appeal. It was the kind of travesty that directly resulted in the loss of several other members of this old brother's congregation, including the couple who asked me if I could get involved.
    Yet, I have never directly seen a pedophile case or child abuse case in all my years and congregations. I have not seen an apostasy case since 1984. Immorality, divorce issues, smoking and other youthful indiscretions are the only types of cases I've seen in 30 years, and these have been relatively rare, only one every few years. And, of course, the joyful side of each of these has been the return to normalcy after spiritual encouragement.
    What I really hoped to get to in this conversation was to just go ahead and admit that I don't believe we shun properly, most of us anyway. That probably won't surprise anyone. I have no doubt at all, personally, that we overdo it, especially with family-based shunning. I think that shunning should be defined as not inviting disfellowshipped persons into congregation activities (platform teaching, audience comments, public prayer, congregation outings, etc). It has nothing to do with whether we should continue to do good things for any and all persons: enemies, friends, neighbors. We should be able to encourage them, talk to them, hire them, visit them when they are sick, etc., etc. That won't work for every single person in the congregation, especially someone who may have been wronged, but it will work for most.
    (I think I ignored the previous conversation on shunning.)
  7. Downvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Gnosis Pithos in How Common is Shunning?   
    We're back to that problem again of trying to use the idea of conscience in a court of law as an obfuscation. You are right that very few Witnesses leave anything up to conscience. It's "spiritual" peer pressure to conform, where not conforming can result in anything from being looked down upon by peers, or a loss of privileges all the way up to being disfellowshipped yourself. I don't have a good solution, but I have seen the type of shunning of young family members that just seems childish on the part of the supposedly mature Witnesses who have to conform to the rule. 
    I note that we no longer claim in court that corporeal punishment of minors is acceptable, and yet it obviously has Biblical precedent. I wonder if there's a way we would begin to conform to more modern norms of conduct, in obedience to the superior authorities in shunning cases, too.
  8. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Anna in How Common is Shunning?   
    We're back to that problem again of trying to use the idea of conscience in a court of law as an obfuscation. You are right that very few Witnesses leave anything up to conscience. It's "spiritual" peer pressure to conform, where not conforming can result in anything from being looked down upon by peers, or a loss of privileges all the way up to being disfellowshipped yourself. I don't have a good solution, but I have seen the type of shunning of young family members that just seems childish on the part of the supposedly mature Witnesses who have to conform to the rule. 
    I note that we no longer claim in court that corporeal punishment of minors is acceptable, and yet it obviously has Biblical precedent. I wonder if there's a way we would begin to conform to more modern norms of conduct, in obedience to the superior authorities in shunning cases, too.
  9. Like
    JW Insider got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in How Common is Shunning?   
    We're back to that problem again of trying to use the idea of conscience in a court of law as an obfuscation. You are right that very few Witnesses leave anything up to conscience. It's "spiritual" peer pressure to conform, where not conforming can result in anything from being looked down upon by peers, or a loss of privileges all the way up to being disfellowshipped yourself. I don't have a good solution, but I have seen the type of shunning of young family members that just seems childish on the part of the supposedly mature Witnesses who have to conform to the rule. 
    I note that we no longer claim in court that corporeal punishment of minors is acceptable, and yet it obviously has Biblical precedent. I wonder if there's a way we would begin to conform to more modern norms of conduct, in obedience to the superior authorities in shunning cases, too.
  10. Like
    JW Insider got a reaction from ComfortMyPeople in How Common is Shunning?   
    We're back to that problem again of trying to use the idea of conscience in a court of law as an obfuscation. You are right that very few Witnesses leave anything up to conscience. It's "spiritual" peer pressure to conform, where not conforming can result in anything from being looked down upon by peers, or a loss of privileges all the way up to being disfellowshipped yourself. I don't have a good solution, but I have seen the type of shunning of young family members that just seems childish on the part of the supposedly mature Witnesses who have to conform to the rule. 
    I note that we no longer claim in court that corporeal punishment of minors is acceptable, and yet it obviously has Biblical precedent. I wonder if there's a way we would begin to conform to more modern norms of conduct, in obedience to the superior authorities in shunning cases, too.
  11. Haha
    JW Insider got a reaction from AllenSmith in Texas Church Shooting: Two Dozen Parishioners Killed   
    I just did a quick search on this and the first thing that came up was a video:
    After listening to the video I'm convinced that this person at "The Patriotic Beast" -- i.e., the person who made the video and claimed that he was the one who discovered the Antifa connection -- is lying through his teeth. Doesn't mean this guy isn't Antifa, but I doubt it seriously. The way this man at TPB manipulated the data and lied about it, so that he could claim "you heard it hear first," makes me think that almost everyone else who makes or focuses on this claim is also being disingenuous -- going for the obvious attempt to get this idea out there early to blunt the post-Trumpian reputational trends that sully the right wing of his party. 
  12. Haha
    JW Insider got a reaction from AllenSmith in Texas Church Shooting: Two Dozen Parishioners Killed   
    Wow!! One of the first things I said to my wife upon seeing a picture of him was that, if it didn't turn out to be a terrorist or immigrant, Trump would desperately need this person to somehow balance the Carolina church shooting and more recent Carolina racist truck attack, and the only way he could do this now is to claim that he was Antifa. There was nothing about Antifa in any of the reports I had heard, and then I see this.
  13. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Ann O'Maly in 607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported?   
    Yes. A 70 year period that ended in 539 would have to have started around 609. And this is a pretty good match for when Babylonian power reared its head over Assyria. The capital of Nineveh fell in 612 and Babylon took advantage and became the next world power. 609 was the year that Josiah died. Josiah was considered by many Jews to be the next potential Messiah, a king like David.
    In fact, notice that 609 is exactly the year that the Watch Tower publications point to (indirectly) when it speaks of the end of the Assyrian empire. (Remember that the WTS arbitrarily adds 20 years to every date prior to 587 B.C.E., so that 607 B.C.E.is actually 587 B.C.E., and therefore 629 B.C.E. is actually 609 B.C.E.)
    *** it-1 p. 205 Assyria ***
    According to the same chronicle, in the 14th year of Nabopolassar (632 B.C.E.), Ashur-uballit II attempted to continue Assyrian rule from Haran as his capital city. This chronicle states, under the 17th year of Nabopolassar (629 B.C.E.): “In the month Duʼuzu, Ashur-uballit, king of Assyria, (and) a large [army of] E[gy]pt [who had come to his aid] crossed the river (Euphrates) and [marched on] to conquer Harran.” (Ancient Near Eastern Texts, p. 305; brackets and parentheses theirs.) Actually, Ashur-uballit was trying to reconquer it after having been driven out. This record is in harmony with the account relative to the activity of Pharaoh Nechoh recorded at 2 Kings 23:29, which activity resulted in the death of King Josiah of Judah (c. 629 B.C.E.). This text states that “Pharaoh Nechoh the king of Egypt came up to the king of Assyria by the river Euphrates”—evidently to help him. “The king of Assyria” to whom Nechoh came may well have been Ashur-uballit II. Their campaign against Haran did not succeed. The Assyrian Empire had ended. So this is an excellent match for the 70 years of Babylonian domination from 609 to 539, spoken about by Jeremiah:
    (Jeremiah 25:11, 12) 11 And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.”’ 12 “‘But when 70 years have been fulfilled, I will call to account the king of Babylon and that nation for their error,’ . . . Just as the Watch Tower publications have explained it in the "Isaiah's Prophecy" book:
    *** ip-1 chap. 19 p. 253 par. 21 Jehovah Profanes the Pride of Tyre ***
    “These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) . . . Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble.
    So that is ONE period of 70 years that started in 609 and ended in 539.
    The Bible, in the book of Zechariah, also mentions another period of 70 years that starts around 587 (destruction of Jerusalem) or even 588 when the siege began, and ends around 518. Since it's been so many months I'll repeat some portions of the post you referred to, where this was explained:
    ------- the remainder of this post copied from a previous post (JWI: 4/14/2017) above -------
    (Zechariah 1:12) . . .“O Jehovah of armies, how long will you withhold your mercy from Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with whom you have been indignant these 70 years?”
    (Zechariah 7:5) . . .‘When you fasted and wailed in the fifth month and in the seventh month for 70 years. . .
    (Zechariah 8:19) . . .‘The fast of the fourth month, the fast of the fifth month, the fast of the seventh month, and the fast of the tenth month will be occasions for exultation and joy for the house of Judah. . .
    *** w96 11/15 p. 5 Does God Require Fasting? ***
    For example, at one time the people of Judah had four annual fasts to commemorate the calamitous events associated with Jerusalem’s siege and desolation in the seventh century B.C.E. (2 Kings 25:1-4, 8, 9, 22-26; Zechariah 8:19)
    According to our current understanding of the chronology that includes the supposed destruction of Jerusalem in 607 BCE, then this produces a contradiction, because we date the book of Zechariah as follows:
    *** nwt p. 1662 Table of the Books of the Bible ***
    Zechariah
    Jerusalem rebuilt
    518
    520-518 [BCE]
    If Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 BCE, then 518 BCE is 69 years later, and therefore matches Zechariah's theme of 70 years of withheld mercy and indignities, and wailing and fasting over Jerusalem, which is now being rebuilt.
    If Jerusalem had been destroyed in 607 BCE, then by Zechariah's time, in 518 BCE, it would have been 89 years of wailing and fasting.
    Neither date is "Biblical" and neither date should really matter that much, but it is curious that 607 BCE is totally impossible from the perspective of secular evidence, and it becomes very difficult from the perspective of Biblical evidence. Yet 587 BCE is totally supported from the perspective of secular evidence and provides an excellent match to the Biblical evidence. There should really be no reason why we are not rejoicing that secular, historical, archaeological evidence for 587 BCE once again shows the Bible to be accurate and sound from a historical perspective.
  14. Thanks
    JW Insider reacted to Evacuated in What is a Christian Man's MORAL responsibility to protect his own life, or that of his immediate or spiritual family?   
    Quite true. The commitment to evil is quite often unperceived by those who do not share it.
    Anyone who expects peaceful behaviour to dissuade evil intent has obviously not considered Ezekiel 38:10-12:
    “This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ‘In that day thoughts will come into your heart, and you will devise an evil plan. You will say: “I will invade the land of unprotected settlements. I will come against those living in security, without disturbance, all of them living in settlements unprotected by walls, bars, or gates.”  It will be to take much spoil and plunder, to attack the devastated places that are now inhabited and a people regathered from the nations, who are accumulating wealth and property, those who are living in the center of the earth."
     
  15. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to TrueTomHarley in NEWS RELEASES | Jehovah’s Witnesses Close Sale of Historic Building, The Towers   
    "Beware, my brothers. In the last days there will be false apostates who deceive with their false stories."
  16. Like
    JW Insider got a reaction from Anna in NEWS RELEASES | Jehovah’s Witnesses Close Sale of Historic Building, The Towers   
    First time I saw this I decided to just let it slide. But if it is going to become fixed in the firmament of my stellar past, I might as well correct it.  The brother I was asked to room with (upon my arrival there) was a brother who was just leaving Bethel. It was in the room right next door to Brother and Sister Merton Campbell's, a very dear old couple who put a lot of effort into making "Family Night" entertaining, and who had a long career and many great upbuilding stories from the past. I have a picture of him from about 1957 in an old shoebox somewhere (the picture is in the shoebox, not Merton). He's out on the roof of 124 Columbia Heights.
    But I digress. The brother I roomed with for a few days didn't steal the money in the typical manner. He asked to borrow about $200 to get home by bus, with the promise that he would send me the money the instant he got back which would have been two days from the time I loaned the money, and I would expect to receive it within a week or so, assuming cooperation from the postal gods. Well 4 weeks went by, and no money. I didn't even know where he had gone, and I wanted to check to make sure the post office didn't lose it, or it wasn't stuck somewhere in the cracks of Bethel's bureaucracy.
    I asked brother Campbell if there was any way to check up on the mail. He got the story, and told me that this brother was bad news, and that I was not the first to complain of the same issue. He was in the Service Department, and said he could get the money back for me if I would first write the brother then a month later, his congregation's presiding overseer. My money appeared, via Campbell, and I started thinking of the Service Department as a kind of "secret service."
  17. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Noble Berean in Is Jesus presence began in 1914, why hasn't the MOL (clergy class) been destroyed?   
    As IBA has just indicated, you can get such evidence through interpretation, and interpretations may be wide-ranging . . . and therefore more often wrong than right, even when serious, sensible and sincerely held. But interpretations are not the same as clear evidence.
    My first impulsive answer to the specific question would be, "Yes, there is evidence for a two-part presence, but not a two-part parousia. There are no scriptures that would indicate a two-part parousia. But Jesus said that he would be present with us from the time of his resurrection, right up until the synteleia.
    (Matthew 28:20) . . .And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion [synteleia]  of the system of things.” Technically, using Watchtower definitions, this would mean that Jesus would be present right up until 1914, the start of the synteleia.
    We know from Matthew 24 that the disciples understood the synteleia to be the same as the parousia. (Probably, synteleia meant "end of all things" and parousia meant "the royal visitation judgment event.") So their question had to do with how they could identify the time period just before the parousia/synteleia so they could have an advance warning, and Jesus gave them an answer that says, basically,
    "Sorry, there will be no warning signs, because the parousia/synteleia will come as a thief. You might think that wars and earthquakes and famines will be the signs you are asking about, because these things will definitely take place, but don't be misled, these are not true signs of the end. So you will just have to expect trouble all throughout this generation until the parousia/synteleia is upon you, and use the time to prepare to preach and to be ready for anything." But even if you agree that this is what Jesus was saying, this is still just an interpretation of what Jesus said. There are a lot of things in Matthew 24 and elsewhere that support the interpretation, but there are many religions, not just Witnesses, that are able to read it differently: as if Jesus really was giving them warning signs that would match Revelation 12's "short period of time" leading up to his parousia/synteleia. Or, as our own publications have explained it since around 1943/44: that this parousia/synteleia would have started in 1914, somewhere between 30 years and a maximum of, say, 185* years prior to the final judgment manifestation of that same parousia/synteleia. (At 103+ years since the start, we would now be just over half-way through that possible range.)
    *Depending on how long Brother Sanderson, for example, might live on earth.
    It would be nice if it were more clear-cut, but it's basically a matter of interpretation. Like an imaginary experience I had in field service:
    JW: Knock, knock Hello? JW: Hello. Today, I'd like to talk to you about this article in the latest Awake! on Spiritism. Did you know there are invisible spirits around us right now? Invisibility? I just can't see that. JW: Well let me make myself clear!' [Went back for a return visit, but nothing materialized.]  
  18. Haha
  19. Haha
    JW Insider got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in NEWS RELEASES | Jehovah’s Witnesses Close Sale of Historic Building, The Towers   
    First time I saw this I decided to just let it slide. But if it is going to become fixed in the firmament of my stellar past, I might as well correct it.  The brother I was asked to room with (upon my arrival there) was a brother who was just leaving Bethel. It was in the room right next door to Brother and Sister Merton Campbell's, a very dear old couple who put a lot of effort into making "Family Night" entertaining, and who had a long career and many great upbuilding stories from the past. I have a picture of him from about 1957 in an old shoebox somewhere (the picture is in the shoebox, not Merton). He's out on the roof of 124 Columbia Heights.
    But I digress. The brother I roomed with for a few days didn't steal the money in the typical manner. He asked to borrow about $200 to get home by bus, with the promise that he would send me the money the instant he got back which would have been two days from the time I loaned the money, and I would expect to receive it within a week or so, assuming cooperation from the postal gods. Well 4 weeks went by, and no money. I didn't even know where he had gone, and I wanted to check to make sure the post office didn't lose it, or it wasn't stuck somewhere in the cracks of Bethel's bureaucracy.
    I asked brother Campbell if there was any way to check up on the mail. He got the story, and told me that this brother was bad news, and that I was not the first to complain of the same issue. He was in the Service Department, and said he could get the money back for me if I would first write the brother then a month later, his congregation's presiding overseer. My money appeared, via Campbell, and I started thinking of the Service Department as a kind of "secret service."
  20. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to TrueTomHarley in NEWS RELEASES | Jehovah’s Witnesses Close Sale of Historic Building, The Towers   
    Everyone is grappling with this in diverse areas and many do not handle it especially well. In the world of current events, it results in charges of fake news for what are sometimes just different points of view. In science and medicine, the internet results in 'anecdotal reports,' which science hates because they are not something their system is able to assess or repeat.
  21. Haha
    JW Insider reacted to Vic Vomidog in NEWS RELEASES | Jehovah’s Witnesses Close Sale of Historic Building, The Towers   
    Me and my mates - we terrified the place. When the holyrollers saw our black leather jackets with BAA on the back (bad ass attitude) they ran. We was like Robin Hood, only halfway. We stole from the rich and we stole from the poor.
    The one I hated worst was goody-goody JWI. He wasn't worse than the others at first but then he had a dream that he talked about at every meal. Aye. He was going to be exalted over all the rest of us to the Art Department. And what of his former mates? We would be swabbing the decks, like always. 'God gave gifts in men for some to be swabbers and toilet cleaners and waiters - but for me to do artwork' he use to tell us. Always smiling, he was. Always exhorting us to swab harder. I hate him. 
    But I got even with him though. He left $200 lying right out there in the open! God will watch it, he said. I saw his money and his garments.- good looking ones from the land of Shinar - because he loved to shine, that one - and I took them. I wrote my ticket home and am a big shot right now back home.
  22. Downvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Gnosis Pithos in Is Jesus presence began in 1914, why hasn't the MOL (clergy class) been destroyed?   
    Good point!
    I think the usual answer is: just wait, it will happen. His presence is invisible, so the "manifestation" is at the culmination of his presence before the judgment.
  23. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Noble Berean in Is Jesus presence began in 1914, why hasn't the MOL (clergy class) been destroyed?   
    "Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence" (2 Thessalonians 2:8).
    I understand that Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus Christ presence began back in 1914. I also understand that JWs believe the clergy of Christendom represent the Man of Lawlessness. However, if that is the case, why have the clergy thrived since 1914? Shouldn't they be brought to "...nothing by the manifestation of his presence"?
  24. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Cheepcheep in NEWS RELEASES | Jehovah’s Witnesses Close Sale of Historic Building, The Towers   
    I'm sure we can, too. It appears that those who worked directly with him supported him. But have you already forgotten your claim so quickly? You said that it could be substantiated that ex-Bethelites who supported R.Franz in the 80's, got DF'd in the process only to be reinstated. As you put it:
    Perhaps you have already backed down from this unsubstantiated claim. I think anyone would agree that there were and are R.Franz supporters, though.
    Barbara Anderson might be one, I don't know. But she was never at Bethel when he was there. I think she's more of a 90's Bethelite. But she completely lost her belief that this could be the truth, so I doubt anyone could talk her into coming back.
    Bill Bowen might or might not; I thought he blamed him for the "two-witness" rule, too. Also, he never was a Bethelite, I don't think. And I've heard he is kind of creepy.
    Ed Dunlap. Yes he was at Bethel, yes, the time period is right, and I've read in the R.Franz book that they were good friends, and I knew that they worked together. Not much chance he'll try for reinstatement. He died long before R.Franz did. 
    Nestor Kuilan. That could be a candidate. He was good friends with Rene Vasquez, who was also disfellowshipped, along with Cristobal Sanchez. All of them worked on Spanish translation and all of them knew each other. But Vasquez worked outside of Bethel, and handled some Circuit Overseer assignments. That circuit covered the congregation R.Franz was in, I think. When Vasquez came to Bethel, I think he mostly came to the factory building where Sanchez and Kuilan worked (along with both their wives). I remember that Rene Vasquez sold "Shaklee" vitamins and health supplies as did many brothers in the same circuit. He had done this for years, and was one of the first and biggest suppliers in the area. That meant that a lot of other Witnesses who he had helped to get into the business were actually making a portion of their money for Vasquez, and this had become a big question that even made its way around Bethel. It turned out that some Bethelites were also selling Shaklee on the side, in the same way that a couple of sisters were selling Avon products on the side. (We didn't have the "vow of poverty" in the early 1980's.) At their next circuit assembly (in Spanish) Brother Fred Franz gave a talk and made it clear what they should do. He said:
    "We get OUR VITAMINS from the Faithful and Discreet Slave!!"  
    It wouldn't surprise me at all if R.Franz was the primary one behind the two-witness" rule. I remember some articles that came in for artwork from R.Franz, so I knew a little bit about his style. But I never saw anything specifically on the two-witness rule. Still, from the articles I did see, he was the one who was usually assigned to take on specific portions of "organization books" and some articles on congregational issues dealing with qualifications for elders, ministerial servants, disfellowshipping, reinstatement, and the like. Most of these types of articles were cut down into "Questions from Readers" and never got an "artwork" assignment anyway. A few of his that were full-fledged Watchtower articles would have no artwork, but would only get an assignment for someone to create or choose a special "headline font." Some of the writers interacted with the Art Dept and were "memorable" for their interactions, as they were hard to please. But I never saw R.Franz interact much. If someone (like Swingle) thought one of his articles could use some art, he'd request it, but I don't remember Franz personally interacting with anyone in Art.
    LOL. If I can remember anything "juicier" you'll be one of the first to know. Or judging by how many names you appear to be using for yourself on here, you might even be the first through the fourth persons to know.
  25. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Shiwiii in 607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported?   
    Yes. A 70 year period that ended in 539 would have to have started around 609. And this is a pretty good match for when Babylonian power reared its head over Assyria. The capital of Nineveh fell in 612 and Babylon took advantage and became the next world power. 609 was the year that Josiah died. Josiah was considered by many Jews to be the next potential Messiah, a king like David.
    In fact, notice that 609 is exactly the year that the Watch Tower publications point to (indirectly) when it speaks of the end of the Assyrian empire. (Remember that the WTS arbitrarily adds 20 years to every date prior to 587 B.C.E., so that 607 B.C.E.is actually 587 B.C.E., and therefore 629 B.C.E. is actually 609 B.C.E.)
    *** it-1 p. 205 Assyria ***
    According to the same chronicle, in the 14th year of Nabopolassar (632 B.C.E.), Ashur-uballit II attempted to continue Assyrian rule from Haran as his capital city. This chronicle states, under the 17th year of Nabopolassar (629 B.C.E.): “In the month Duʼuzu, Ashur-uballit, king of Assyria, (and) a large [army of] E[gy]pt [who had come to his aid] crossed the river (Euphrates) and [marched on] to conquer Harran.” (Ancient Near Eastern Texts, p. 305; brackets and parentheses theirs.) Actually, Ashur-uballit was trying to reconquer it after having been driven out. This record is in harmony with the account relative to the activity of Pharaoh Nechoh recorded at 2 Kings 23:29, which activity resulted in the death of King Josiah of Judah (c. 629 B.C.E.). This text states that “Pharaoh Nechoh the king of Egypt came up to the king of Assyria by the river Euphrates”—evidently to help him. “The king of Assyria” to whom Nechoh came may well have been Ashur-uballit II. Their campaign against Haran did not succeed. The Assyrian Empire had ended. So this is an excellent match for the 70 years of Babylonian domination from 609 to 539, spoken about by Jeremiah:
    (Jeremiah 25:11, 12) 11 And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.”’ 12 “‘But when 70 years have been fulfilled, I will call to account the king of Babylon and that nation for their error,’ . . . Just as the Watch Tower publications have explained it in the "Isaiah's Prophecy" book:
    *** ip-1 chap. 19 p. 253 par. 21 Jehovah Profanes the Pride of Tyre ***
    “These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) . . . Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble.
    So that is ONE period of 70 years that started in 609 and ended in 539.
    The Bible, in the book of Zechariah, also mentions another period of 70 years that starts around 587 (destruction of Jerusalem) or even 588 when the siege began, and ends around 518. Since it's been so many months I'll repeat some portions of the post you referred to, where this was explained:
    ------- the remainder of this post copied from a previous post (JWI: 4/14/2017) above -------
    (Zechariah 1:12) . . .“O Jehovah of armies, how long will you withhold your mercy from Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with whom you have been indignant these 70 years?”
    (Zechariah 7:5) . . .‘When you fasted and wailed in the fifth month and in the seventh month for 70 years. . .
    (Zechariah 8:19) . . .‘The fast of the fourth month, the fast of the fifth month, the fast of the seventh month, and the fast of the tenth month will be occasions for exultation and joy for the house of Judah. . .
    *** w96 11/15 p. 5 Does God Require Fasting? ***
    For example, at one time the people of Judah had four annual fasts to commemorate the calamitous events associated with Jerusalem’s siege and desolation in the seventh century B.C.E. (2 Kings 25:1-4, 8, 9, 22-26; Zechariah 8:19)
    According to our current understanding of the chronology that includes the supposed destruction of Jerusalem in 607 BCE, then this produces a contradiction, because we date the book of Zechariah as follows:
    *** nwt p. 1662 Table of the Books of the Bible ***
    Zechariah
    Jerusalem rebuilt
    518
    520-518 [BCE]
    If Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 BCE, then 518 BCE is 69 years later, and therefore matches Zechariah's theme of 70 years of withheld mercy and indignities, and wailing and fasting over Jerusalem, which is now being rebuilt.
    If Jerusalem had been destroyed in 607 BCE, then by Zechariah's time, in 518 BCE, it would have been 89 years of wailing and fasting.
    Neither date is "Biblical" and neither date should really matter that much, but it is curious that 607 BCE is totally impossible from the perspective of secular evidence, and it becomes very difficult from the perspective of Biblical evidence. Yet 587 BCE is totally supported from the perspective of secular evidence and provides an excellent match to the Biblical evidence. There should really be no reason why we are not rejoicing that secular, historical, archaeological evidence for 587 BCE once again shows the Bible to be accurate and sound from a historical perspective.
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