JW Insider

I think that is the job that journalists should have, to uncover issues that need to be fixed. If it's not their job to fix it, then that should be left to someone else. Of course, I don't confuse CNN, MSNBC, FOX and nightly broadcast news with journalism, either.
Fuel for flamethrowers is always out there, whether some of it gets discussed here or not. But it's good for us to know what's true and what's exaggerated. When to duck and when to ignore. But we don't want to expose ourselves further by simply hiding our head in the sand. And we don't want to deny things that it is dishonest to deny.
I don't know about that. We all have defense mechanisms that just seem to rise up when we feel our comfort level threatened. Among each other, here, we may act one way, but we are better prepared for what we will see more and more of outside here. We are going to face more and more people who are info-savvy, even in our own congregations. (My own children found jwfacts before I did.) They will see direct evidence that something is true, ask us about it, and hear some of us deny that there is even a grain of truth to it. They might wonder what kind of "truth" this is. (My own mother will probably instinctively deny that Brother Jackson ever testified anywhere on "that" subject, for example.) Yet, if a transition toward more openness, realism, and truth is evident anywhere, even here, then it's a start toward healing ourselves of a pervasive pride of ignorance. When we truly make the truth our own, we will be better equipped to defend and emphasize the more important things, when someone brings up details about lesser things.
It's a better question that you might think. There was an "old guard" who were known to be very insular and clearly felt threatened by discussions. It's true that they literally thought that it was some kind of attack on them if groups of brothers and sisters were meeting together just to read and discuss the Bible reading without Society publications at their side at all times. I was there for the crackdown on such gatherings that had become popular from about 1975 to 1979 when the brothers handling morning worship were beginning to make statements that sounded paranoid. But most of these brothers had been life-long bureaucrats inside a Tower all their lives. But the "new crew" is mostly from circuit work, missionary work, with only a reasonable amount of branch level work. There are more married couples. We speak about how Jesus was taught by Jehovah and this includes the fact that he has lived as a natural human, has become "one of us." 
Compare: (Hebrews 5:1, 2) 5 For every high priest taken from among men is appointed in their behalf over the things relating to God, so that he may offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He is able to deal compassionately with the ignorant and erring ones, since he too is confronted with his own weakness, Compare: (James 5:17) 17 E·liʹjah was a man with feelings like ours. . .

I am so sorry @bruceq if you think such experiences would need turn someone sour and bitter. I am happy for all the experiences I've had in the organization, and a few eye-opening experiences can enhance our appreciation. A look at our history might cause some embarrassment now and then, but look what Jehovah has been able to accomplish. We look at the history of God's people in the Scriptures the same way. There is no reason for responding the way you describe. Such things are easily dismissed by those who focus on the more important things. There were legalistic men leading the Jewish religion in Jesus' day, and they bound heavy burdens on people, telling them that they must follow them. But Jesus said to go ahead and do whatever they tell you to do.
(Matthew 23:3-4) 3 Therefore, all the things they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but they do not practice what they say. 4 They bind up heavy loads and put them on the shoulders of men, . . . We don't "grouse" about such burdens but come to love and respect all our brothers, because none of us expect perfection from each other. Besides, such burdens are to be considered as "nothing" among the true Christian congregation. Activity properly motivated is a joy. Our load is light and we find daily refreshment in spiritual things.
Do you ever see someone read about David and Uriah, and say, "Oh No! Now I'm bitter and sour"? Instead it makes us all the more aware that Jehovah can allow grave imperfections and still love us, and all the injustice that goes on in this life is easily made up for in Jehovah's timetable. Anything happening to us now can be overcome with Jehovah's help. Everything that ever happened to us, happened to us in the past. We should not be so self-centered as to think that we need to carry issues from the past and pretend that we still need to carry them today.
(Matthew 6:34) . . .So, never be anxious about the next day, for the next day will have its own anxieties. Sufficient for each day is its own badness. We can certainly LEARN from past problems, and we should. All things can be for our instruction and discipline. If we see lessons in these experiences, we can help others learn from those experiences and lessons.
On your points about doctrine, well that is just a philosophy that works for you. There are certain traditions that are strongly entrenched, and some of these can make the word of God invalid. If you lived in a congregation in the first century and the the body of elders taught that the resurrection had already occurred, you really think you would be obligated to believe it, just because the Bible said that you must be obedient to those taking the lead among you? Following the lead referred to imitating the faith of those whose examples strengthened faith. It meant following the instructions of those who took the lead in good works. When it comes to doctrine, we are required to use our powers of reason, we are required to test it, we are required to question, if we wish to be noble-minded. We have the Bible itself to speak in agreement about, not someone's specific or current interpretation. One of the reasons I bring up past issues with doctrines is so that we can remember the lessons learned. For example, you can replace the date 1914 with the date 1925, since the Governing Body taught that as an undeniable truth, even more sure than 1914. During those years are you really saying it was your obligation to believe and teach and promote 1925, or was it your obligation to "make sure of all things"?
I'm really interested in your answer to that question. Are you willing to respond to it?
 

This is actually not the answer I expected. It's because Jesus is the Head of the congregation that I would think we'd know better. It's because we look to a spiritual Head of the congregation instead of physical men that we should know better.
(2 Timothy 2:16-19) 16 But reject empty speeches that violate what is holy, for they will lead to more and more ungodliness, 17 and their word will spread like gangrene. Hy·me·naeʹus and Phi·leʹtus are among them. 18 These men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and they are subverting the faith of some. 19 Despite that, the solid foundation of God remains standing, having this seal, “Jehovah knows those who belong to him,” and, “Let everyone calling on the name of Jehovah renounce unrighteousness.” How are we obligated to believe something and we are obligated to reject it at the same time?
Today we also live in a time when the Governing Body has inherited a tradition that claimed that the resurrection has already occurred. You don't feel like as if you are required to test this doctrine and make sure before you begin believing it and promoting it yoursel?
 

Thanks for showing such true concern. It's deeply appreciated. Those old posts are still in this thread. The ones that were moved to a separate thread (so far) made up 6 or 7 of the 20 pages of this thread. So those posts are still here, and in the same order, but by moving so many near-adjacent posts, they fall on different pages now. 
Regarding Bethel experiences, I look back on all of it overall with fond and happy memories. I know there was an initial shock, not so much at the existence of cursing and abusive behavior, but at the pervasiveness and acceptance of it among those with high levels of responsibility. I just typed up two cases that I thought were informative to your point but removed them to avoid raising new topics. The point was that I sometimes mistook mildness and meekness for humility, when it could also be paired with the height of egotism. And in another case where a brother ranted loudly and even slammed a newly published book across the room, I came to appreciate that he really thought he was protecting the worldwide congregation from error. As a young person, I didn't have the tools to understand people very well, and for many years still we continue to learn from new experiences that shed light on old ones.
But when we realize and accept that some negative type of behavior is widespread, we also tend to accept it ourselves too easily, I think. And I'm sure the level of privilege has something to do with that. I had excellent and wonderful assignments, and I wouldn't have risked them to give any kind of feedback to someone who could control my assignments. I would expect an argument here and there in the bindery or pressroom, and yet I heard they were rare. I wondered if they were worse among persons of greater responsibility. These weren't daily occurrences, of course, because we always tend to remember and highlight the exceptions. Even if those exceptions are negative.
Obviously, when it comes to doctrinal questions, I do the same thing here on the forum. I could go on and on about why our stance on war, hell and Trinity, for example, is such a good thing in that doesn't just set us apart, but also produces a much healthier Christianity than we could expect from those who see things differently. But instead, I assume we all know that alrady and try to share something that I think we probably do wrong, and which I believe can hurt our Christianity and spirituality unless we look into it.
(By the way, I mostly push the idea that we look into something even if my reasons appear too strongly promoted. I don't usually have a specific solution about exactly what we must do to resolve the issues that arise. I think that's what a Governing Body is for. I might have ideas but don't think it's my place to push a specific solution when there are multiple choices of solutions. However, I always think that discussions can help prepare us for change, and will promote less dogmatism, and therefore more humility in the meantime. This helps us empathize with those we meet in field service and other interested persons.)
On the issue of false rumors starting from nothing, I know it doesn't make much sense. We'd rather believe there was a kernel of truth to them. But in this case, I think I was there to watch the germination of a different kind of  phenomenon. I saw brothers and sisters change from being loving to almost literally "spitting" in a split second when they heard about the "apostasy" charges that several persons received. It was the incongruent variety of extra charges that were heaped upon some of the brothers and sisters that got to me. Within days, these might have coalesced into only one or two charges that were finally settled upon, but even these were clearly far-fetched and sometimes contradictory. I think it's more of a matter of our own minds not being able to manage the "justice" of casting out brothers and sisters that were so loving and kind and would do anything for you yesterday, but were called a disgusting cancer today. I think the mind just needs to create a story to solve the dissonance.
Your point about looking forward instead of back is so apt. I have three children, and in raising them, we often made the mistake of trying to draw out every detail of a conflict between any two of them. We wanted the whole story each time. Each person's version, and then as parents we know doubt imposed on our own compromised versions on top of it to make it coherent. What a waste of time! Your counsel to look forward, and focus on what we'll all do in the future to help each other avoid conflict creates on-going trust and therefore misconceptions and imputed bad motives don't have so much "breeding" room.
I have a feeling that the current GB get along many times better than the 17 at once during my tour of duty. I hear from a friend that these kinds of issues are more likely only from the more competitive among the "helpers." I visited Patterson early last year (and Brooklyn Bethel, too, but it doesn't tell you as much any more) and I see a much more professional group who appear less likely to let education levels, class differences, and various insecurities get in the way.

I dont and I didnt say that. I try look for good in people not dwell on mistakes.

I am so sorry @bruceq if you think such experiences would need turn someone sour and bitter. I am happy for all the experiences I've had in the organization, and a few eye-opening experiences can enhance our appreciation. A look at our history might cause some embarrassment now and then, but look what Jehovah has been able to accomplish. We look at the history of God's people in the Scriptures the same way. There is no reason for responding the way you describe. Such things are easily dismissed by those who focus on the more important things. There were legalistic men leading the Jewish religion in Jesus' day, and they bound heavy burdens on people, telling them that they must follow them. But Jesus said to go ahead and do whatever they tell you to do.
(Matthew 23:3-4) 3 Therefore, all the things they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but they do not practice what they say. 4 They bind up heavy loads and put them on the shoulders of men, . . . We don't "grouse" about such burdens but come to love and respect all our brothers, because none of us expect perfection from each other. Besides, such burdens are to be considered as "nothing" among the true Christian congregation. Activity properly motivated is a joy. Our load is light and we find daily refreshment in spiritual things.
Do you ever see someone read about David and Uriah, and say, "Oh No! Now I'm bitter and sour"? Instead it makes us all the more aware that Jehovah can allow grave imperfections and still love us, and all the injustice that goes on in this life is easily made up for in Jehovah's timetable. Anything happening to us now can be overcome with Jehovah's help. Everything that ever happened to us, happened to us in the past. We should not be so self-centered as to think that we need to carry issues from the past and pretend that we still need to carry them today.
(Matthew 6:34) . . .So, never be anxious about the next day, for the next day will have its own anxieties. Sufficient for each day is its own badness. We can certainly LEARN from past problems, and we should. All things can be for our instruction and discipline. If we see lessons in these experiences, we can help others learn from those experiences and lessons.
On your points about doctrine, well that is just a philosophy that works for you. There are certain traditions that are strongly entrenched, and some of these can make the word of God invalid. If you lived in a congregation in the first century and the the body of elders taught that the resurrection had already occurred, you really think you would be obligated to believe it, just because the Bible said that you must be obedient to those taking the lead among you? Following the lead referred to imitating the faith of those whose examples strengthened faith. It meant following the instructions of those who took the lead in good works. When it comes to doctrine, we are required to use our powers of reason, we are required to test it, we are required to question, if we wish to be noble-minded. We have the Bible itself to speak in agreement about, not someone's specific or current interpretation. One of the reasons I bring up past issues with doctrines is so that we can remember the lessons learned. For example, you can replace the date 1914 with the date 1925, since the Governing Body taught that as an undeniable truth, even more sure than 1914. During those years are you really saying it was your obligation to believe and teach and promote 1925, or was it your obligation to "make sure of all things"?
I'm really interested in your answer to that question. Are you willing to respond to it?
 

I am so sorry @bruceq if you think such experiences would need turn someone sour and bitter. I am happy for all the experiences I've had in the organization, and a few eye-opening experiences can enhance our appreciation. A look at our history might cause some embarrassment now and then, but look what Jehovah has been able to accomplish. We look at the history of God's people in the Scriptures the same way. There is no reason for responding the way you describe. Such things are easily dismissed by those who focus on the more important things. There were legalistic men leading the Jewish religion in Jesus' day, and they bound heavy burdens on people, telling them that they must follow them. But Jesus said to go ahead and do whatever they tell you to do.
(Matthew 23:3-4) 3 Therefore, all the things they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but they do not practice what they say. 4 They bind up heavy loads and put them on the shoulders of men, . . . We don't "grouse" about such burdens but come to love and respect all our brothers, because none of us expect perfection from each other. Besides, such burdens are to be considered as "nothing" among the true Christian congregation. Activity properly motivated is a joy. Our load is light and we find daily refreshment in spiritual things.
Do you ever see someone read about David and Uriah, and say, "Oh No! Now I'm bitter and sour"? Instead it makes us all the more aware that Jehovah can allow grave imperfections and still love us, and all the injustice that goes on in this life is easily made up for in Jehovah's timetable. Anything happening to us now can be overcome with Jehovah's help. Everything that ever happened to us, happened to us in the past. We should not be so self-centered as to think that we need to carry issues from the past and pretend that we still need to carry them today.
(Matthew 6:34) . . .So, never be anxious about the next day, for the next day will have its own anxieties. Sufficient for each day is its own badness. We can certainly LEARN from past problems, and we should. All things can be for our instruction and discipline. If we see lessons in these experiences, we can help others learn from those experiences and lessons.
On your points about doctrine, well that is just a philosophy that works for you. There are certain traditions that are strongly entrenched, and some of these can make the word of God invalid. If you lived in a congregation in the first century and the the body of elders taught that the resurrection had already occurred, you really think you would be obligated to believe it, just because the Bible said that you must be obedient to those taking the lead among you? Following the lead referred to imitating the faith of those whose examples strengthened faith. It meant following the instructions of those who took the lead in good works. When it comes to doctrine, we are required to use our powers of reason, we are required to test it, we are required to question, if we wish to be noble-minded. We have the Bible itself to speak in agreement about, not someone's specific or current interpretation. One of the reasons I bring up past issues with doctrines is so that we can remember the lessons learned. For example, you can replace the date 1914 with the date 1925, since the Governing Body taught that as an undeniable truth, even more sure than 1914. During those years are you really saying it was your obligation to believe and teach and promote 1925, or was it your obligation to "make sure of all things"?
I'm really interested in your answer to that question. Are you willing to respond to it?
 

As I said before, Rohl and James both agree with the established neo-Babylonian time-line, which is the one relevant to the 1914 calculation: That means they agree with 605 BCE for the accession of Nebuchadnezzar II and 587 BCE for the destruction of Jerusalem.

Of course that could be part of what he has in mind, but Russell never predicted the start of the Great War we now call World War I.

Insider,  I agree with you that the GB seems more calm and kinder now and more mature BUT this does not mean that they will not fall foul of some other sinful quality!  And it is not always Satan - it is just the sinfulness and wrong desires (dominance/competitiveness/ ego) in each of us which leads to bad behavior. Satan will also use any flaw in a person if he sees a gap.
This is why I always caution that we must all of us watch ourselves when it comes to ambition (even in the truth); do not believe that you have the only way of doing something; and ANY form of control over others must be avoided.  If we do not cooperate - we are abusing our power.  A child can abuse the power he has over the family when he does not cooperate.  He can make his parents life difficult.  and.... where there is no peace.... then righteousness cannot grow.  One must keep peace at all costs ..... but many have not learnt that yet because we are all at different levels of development.  Some also learn some things faster than others.
I have been on field service with sisters that are so controlling that I actually want to avoid them the next time - but force myself to be impartial and overlook this DEADLY quality because it destroys unhypocrytical love..   They are usually older sisters and set in their ways - so I try to find the good in them.
I think the shouting match that Paulus had with Barnabas is a good reason for us to not expect people to be perfect and where ever people are - imperfection is sure to follow - and there is always that EGO to a stronger or lesser degree. The anointed man who slept with his own mother and then was later accepted back into the congregation just shows the level to which Jehovah can forgive and what we must be prepared to forgive..... I also believe to speak my mind openly but always try to do it in a loving way.  When in doubt - show love. Sort things immediately in a nice way.... and it has worked for me.  When I was younger I was afraid to speak out but as Paul said: the older sisters also have a role to play to inspire the younger ones and teach the young wives to love their husbands.
The new meeting materials that focus on Christian living - I was very happy when this new feature was brought in because I thought this was really a facet of our Christian living which was neglected before... yea - so we all have our little peeves....  but I honestly believe we must overlook this and get on with only focusing on Jehovah.
My brother - when he was in prison for the truth ( 3 years) told me that he saw some seriously nasty things amongst the brothers (people are just people and immature) and it caused divisions - while they were all trying to keep their integrity to Jehovah.... so yes... I do think that we may in future be thrown into prison together and then we will have to cope with each other..... this will not be a piece of cake.... but if we can do it we will get the crown of life!  Sometimes out tests come from within the congregation!

You and I have already shared photocopies on this forum showing how John A Brown pointed to the 1914 period as a potentially significant time.  What I said above is based on the Proclaimer's book:
*** jv chap. 10 p. 134 Growing in Accurate Knowledge of the Truth *** As early as 1823, John A. Brown, whose work was published in London, England, calculated the “seven times” of Daniel chapter 4 to be 2,520 years in length. But he did not clearly discern the date with which the prophetic time period began or when it would end. He did, however, connect these “seven times” with the Gentile Times of Luke 21:24. In 1844, E. B. Elliott, a British clergyman, drew attention to 1914 as a possible date for the end of the “seven times” of Daniel Those were the two sources from Christendom where Nelson Barbour would have picked up on 1914, at least indirectly for the first, and evidently directly for the second.
I think you already know that John A Brown said that the Mohammedan Imposture started in 622 and ends 1,260 "days" later in 1844. The 1,290 ending in 1873, and that the 1,335 days ending in 1917. Therefore the three-and-one-half Gentile Times of Luke 21:24. ended in 1844, per Brown. (For these he used "lunar" years.) But the 7 times of Daniel 4 (not the Gentile Times)  would run from 604 BC to 1917 AD. (Starting at approximately the beginning of the Babylonian empire, 18 years before Jerusalem was burned, and claiming that the "destruction or first captivity of the Jewish nation" started even before Nebuchadnezzar became king, back in 606, the same year that Russell mistakenly took for the destruction of the Temple.
Brown said:
"This second judgment synchronises with the war of Gog of Magog, at the close of the 1290 years, and extends until the close of the 1,335 years of Daniel. This attended by the general judgment . . . " (page xxxvii). In other words the prophecy for this war ran from 1873 until 1917, not only including 1914, but covering almost the exact time period of Nelson Barbour's harvest, in this case 1873-1917. × Page 130 and 131 mention that this is the time for the sitting in judgment of the beasts, especially "Rome," and the period of gradual decay and burial of Gog of Magog. 
As you must be aware, it was not Miller but E. B. Elliott in Horae Apocalypticae, who first in the 1844 edition, and also in the 1847 edition, included the following: (text version here: http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/contents/history/05 Horae Third Edition Chronology.htm )
And, 1st, on the seven times of Nebuchadnezzar's insanity and state of bestialism: {1} These calculated after the year-day system, on the hypothesis of the Babylonish king's insanity figuring that of the great empires which he then headed, in their state of heathen aberration from God, (an hypothesis on the truth of which I do not myself entertain much doubt,) terminate, -- if dated from the time, B.C. 727, . . . -about the year 1793; . . .  Of course if calculated from Nebuchadnezzar's own accession and invasion of Judah, B.C. 606, the end is much later, being A.D. 1914;  

Thanks for showing such true concern. It's deeply appreciated. Those old posts are still in this thread. The ones that were moved to a separate thread (so far) made up 6 or 7 of the 20 pages of this thread. So those posts are still here, and in the same order, but by moving so many near-adjacent posts, they fall on different pages now. 
Regarding Bethel experiences, I look back on all of it overall with fond and happy memories. I know there was an initial shock, not so much at the existence of cursing and abusive behavior, but at the pervasiveness and acceptance of it among those with high levels of responsibility. I just typed up two cases that I thought were informative to your point but removed them to avoid raising new topics. The point was that I sometimes mistook mildness and meekness for humility, when it could also be paired with the height of egotism. And in another case where a brother ranted loudly and even slammed a newly published book across the room, I came to appreciate that he really thought he was protecting the worldwide congregation from error. As a young person, I didn't have the tools to understand people very well, and for many years still we continue to learn from new experiences that shed light on old ones.
But when we realize and accept that some negative type of behavior is widespread, we also tend to accept it ourselves too easily, I think. And I'm sure the level of privilege has something to do with that. I had excellent and wonderful assignments, and I wouldn't have risked them to give any kind of feedback to someone who could control my assignments. I would expect an argument here and there in the bindery or pressroom, and yet I heard they were rare. I wondered if they were worse among persons of greater responsibility. These weren't daily occurrences, of course, because we always tend to remember and highlight the exceptions. Even if those exceptions are negative.
Obviously, when it comes to doctrinal questions, I do the same thing here on the forum. I could go on and on about why our stance on war, hell and Trinity, for example, is such a good thing in that doesn't just set us apart, but also produces a much healthier Christianity than we could expect from those who see things differently. But instead, I assume we all know that alrady and try to share something that I think we probably do wrong, and which I believe can hurt our Christianity and spirituality unless we look into it.
(By the way, I mostly push the idea that we look into something even if my reasons appear too strongly promoted. I don't usually have a specific solution about exactly what we must do to resolve the issues that arise. I think that's what a Governing Body is for. I might have ideas but don't think it's my place to push a specific solution when there are multiple choices of solutions. However, I always think that discussions can help prepare us for change, and will promote less dogmatism, and therefore more humility in the meantime. This helps us empathize with those we meet in field service and other interested persons.)
On the issue of false rumors starting from nothing, I know it doesn't make much sense. We'd rather believe there was a kernel of truth to them. But in this case, I think I was there to watch the germination of a different kind of  phenomenon. I saw brothers and sisters change from being loving to almost literally "spitting" in a split second when they heard about the "apostasy" charges that several persons received. It was the incongruent variety of extra charges that were heaped upon some of the brothers and sisters that got to me. Within days, these might have coalesced into only one or two charges that were finally settled upon, but even these were clearly far-fetched and sometimes contradictory. I think it's more of a matter of our own minds not being able to manage the "justice" of casting out brothers and sisters that were so loving and kind and would do anything for you yesterday, but were called a disgusting cancer today. I think the mind just needs to create a story to solve the dissonance.
Your point about looking forward instead of back is so apt. I have three children, and in raising them, we often made the mistake of trying to draw out every detail of a conflict between any two of them. We wanted the whole story each time. Each person's version, and then as parents we know doubt imposed on our own compromised versions on top of it to make it coherent. What a waste of time! Your counsel to look forward, and focus on what we'll all do in the future to help each other avoid conflict creates on-going trust and therefore misconceptions and imputed bad motives don't have so much "breeding" room.
I have a feeling that the current GB get along many times better than the 17 at once during my tour of duty. I hear from a friend that these kinds of issues are more likely only from the more competitive among the "helpers." I visited Patterson early last year (and Brooklyn Bethel, too, but it doesn't tell you as much any more) and I see a much more professional group who appear less likely to let education levels, class differences, and various insecurities get in the way.

Thanks for showing such true concern. It's deeply appreciated. Those old posts are still in this thread. The ones that were moved to a separate thread (so far) made up 6 or 7 of the 20 pages of this thread. So those posts are still here, and in the same order, but by moving so many near-adjacent posts, they fall on different pages now. 
Regarding Bethel experiences, I look back on all of it overall with fond and happy memories. I know there was an initial shock, not so much at the existence of cursing and abusive behavior, but at the pervasiveness and acceptance of it among those with high levels of responsibility. I just typed up two cases that I thought were informative to your point but removed them to avoid raising new topics. The point was that I sometimes mistook mildness and meekness for humility, when it could also be paired with the height of egotism. And in another case where a brother ranted loudly and even slammed a newly published book across the room, I came to appreciate that he really thought he was protecting the worldwide congregation from error. As a young person, I didn't have the tools to understand people very well, and for many years still we continue to learn from new experiences that shed light on old ones.
But when we realize and accept that some negative type of behavior is widespread, we also tend to accept it ourselves too easily, I think. And I'm sure the level of privilege has something to do with that. I had excellent and wonderful assignments, and I wouldn't have risked them to give any kind of feedback to someone who could control my assignments. I would expect an argument here and there in the bindery or pressroom, and yet I heard they were rare. I wondered if they were worse among persons of greater responsibility. These weren't daily occurrences, of course, because we always tend to remember and highlight the exceptions. Even if those exceptions are negative.
Obviously, when it comes to doctrinal questions, I do the same thing here on the forum. I could go on and on about why our stance on war, hell and Trinity, for example, is such a good thing in that doesn't just set us apart, but also produces a much healthier Christianity than we could expect from those who see things differently. But instead, I assume we all know that alrady and try to share something that I think we probably do wrong, and which I believe can hurt our Christianity and spirituality unless we look into it.
(By the way, I mostly push the idea that we look into something even if my reasons appear too strongly promoted. I don't usually have a specific solution about exactly what we must do to resolve the issues that arise. I think that's what a Governing Body is for. I might have ideas but don't think it's my place to push a specific solution when there are multiple choices of solutions. However, I always think that discussions can help prepare us for change, and will promote less dogmatism, and therefore more humility in the meantime. This helps us empathize with those we meet in field service and other interested persons.)
On the issue of false rumors starting from nothing, I know it doesn't make much sense. We'd rather believe there was a kernel of truth to them. But in this case, I think I was there to watch the germination of a different kind of  phenomenon. I saw brothers and sisters change from being loving to almost literally "spitting" in a split second when they heard about the "apostasy" charges that several persons received. It was the incongruent variety of extra charges that were heaped upon some of the brothers and sisters that got to me. Within days, these might have coalesced into only one or two charges that were finally settled upon, but even these were clearly far-fetched and sometimes contradictory. I think it's more of a matter of our own minds not being able to manage the "justice" of casting out brothers and sisters that were so loving and kind and would do anything for you yesterday, but were called a disgusting cancer today. I think the mind just needs to create a story to solve the dissonance.
Your point about looking forward instead of back is so apt. I have three children, and in raising them, we often made the mistake of trying to draw out every detail of a conflict between any two of them. We wanted the whole story each time. Each person's version, and then as parents we know doubt imposed on our own compromised versions on top of it to make it coherent. What a waste of time! Your counsel to look forward, and focus on what we'll all do in the future to help each other avoid conflict creates on-going trust and therefore misconceptions and imputed bad motives don't have so much "breeding" room.
I have a feeling that the current GB get along many times better than the 17 at once during my tour of duty. I hear from a friend that these kinds of issues are more likely only from the more competitive among the "helpers." I visited Patterson early last year (and Brooklyn Bethel, too, but it doesn't tell you as much any more) and I see a much more professional group who appear less likely to let education levels, class differences, and various insecurities get in the way.

Thanks for showing such true concern. It's deeply appreciated. Those old posts are still in this thread. The ones that were moved to a separate thread (so far) made up 6 or 7 of the 20 pages of this thread. So those posts are still here, and in the same order, but by moving so many near-adjacent posts, they fall on different pages now. 
Regarding Bethel experiences, I look back on all of it overall with fond and happy memories. I know there was an initial shock, not so much at the existence of cursing and abusive behavior, but at the pervasiveness and acceptance of it among those with high levels of responsibility. I just typed up two cases that I thought were informative to your point but removed them to avoid raising new topics. The point was that I sometimes mistook mildness and meekness for humility, when it could also be paired with the height of egotism. And in another case where a brother ranted loudly and even slammed a newly published book across the room, I came to appreciate that he really thought he was protecting the worldwide congregation from error. As a young person, I didn't have the tools to understand people very well, and for many years still we continue to learn from new experiences that shed light on old ones.
But when we realize and accept that some negative type of behavior is widespread, we also tend to accept it ourselves too easily, I think. And I'm sure the level of privilege has something to do with that. I had excellent and wonderful assignments, and I wouldn't have risked them to give any kind of feedback to someone who could control my assignments. I would expect an argument here and there in the bindery or pressroom, and yet I heard they were rare. I wondered if they were worse among persons of greater responsibility. These weren't daily occurrences, of course, because we always tend to remember and highlight the exceptions. Even if those exceptions are negative.
Obviously, when it comes to doctrinal questions, I do the same thing here on the forum. I could go on and on about why our stance on war, hell and Trinity, for example, is such a good thing in that doesn't just set us apart, but also produces a much healthier Christianity than we could expect from those who see things differently. But instead, I assume we all know that alrady and try to share something that I think we probably do wrong, and which I believe can hurt our Christianity and spirituality unless we look into it.
(By the way, I mostly push the idea that we look into something even if my reasons appear too strongly promoted. I don't usually have a specific solution about exactly what we must do to resolve the issues that arise. I think that's what a Governing Body is for. I might have ideas but don't think it's my place to push a specific solution when there are multiple choices of solutions. However, I always think that discussions can help prepare us for change, and will promote less dogmatism, and therefore more humility in the meantime. This helps us empathize with those we meet in field service and other interested persons.)
On the issue of false rumors starting from nothing, I know it doesn't make much sense. We'd rather believe there was a kernel of truth to them. But in this case, I think I was there to watch the germination of a different kind of  phenomenon. I saw brothers and sisters change from being loving to almost literally "spitting" in a split second when they heard about the "apostasy" charges that several persons received. It was the incongruent variety of extra charges that were heaped upon some of the brothers and sisters that got to me. Within days, these might have coalesced into only one or two charges that were finally settled upon, but even these were clearly far-fetched and sometimes contradictory. I think it's more of a matter of our own minds not being able to manage the "justice" of casting out brothers and sisters that were so loving and kind and would do anything for you yesterday, but were called a disgusting cancer today. I think the mind just needs to create a story to solve the dissonance.
Your point about looking forward instead of back is so apt. I have three children, and in raising them, we often made the mistake of trying to draw out every detail of a conflict between any two of them. We wanted the whole story each time. Each person's version, and then as parents we know doubt imposed on our own compromised versions on top of it to make it coherent. What a waste of time! Your counsel to look forward, and focus on what we'll all do in the future to help each other avoid conflict creates on-going trust and therefore misconceptions and imputed bad motives don't have so much "breeding" room.
I have a feeling that the current GB get along many times better than the 17 at once during my tour of duty. I hear from a friend that these kinds of issues are more likely only from the more competitive among the "helpers." I visited Patterson early last year (and Brooklyn Bethel, too, but it doesn't tell you as much any more) and I see a much more professional group who appear less likely to let education levels, class differences, and various insecurities get in the way.

It's back on your post in this thread from Monday, 8/21/2017 time-stamped at 5:20pm in my time zone (EST). In that post you asked: " Should "series" always be in quotes, when referring to these clay tabs of Babs?"
You can tell from the context (of your original post) that she is discussing the fact that Grayson calls ALL of them a part of the "Babylonian Chronicle Series" which she sees as appropriate only up to a point, but does not see the same continuity especially between certain of the chronicles and major eras represented in the "Series" with such a long gap in between. Grayson almost always refers to the entire set of chronicles as the "Babylonian Chronicle Series:" And Grayson defends the use of the term "series."

So, you are right. And I did not catch the full gist of your question. I thought you were asking about the grammar of requiring quotation marks when referring to the "Babylonian Chronicle Series." You can see that the answer to the grammar question is 'NO' by her use of quotation marks only in the capitalized word, and comparing it with his use, without quotation marks, in the non-capitalized word. But if you were referring to the point of her argument itself, then it's obvious you already know that she takes exception his continued use of the term "Babylonian Chronicle Series" because she thinks the word "Series" connotes too much continuity.
 
 

It's back on your post in this thread from Monday, 8/21/2017 time-stamped at 5:20pm in my time zone (EST). In that post you asked: " Should "series" always be in quotes, when referring to these clay tabs of Babs?"
You can tell from the context (of your original post) that she is discussing the fact that Grayson calls ALL of them a part of the "Babylonian Chronicle Series" which she sees as appropriate only up to a point, but does not see the same continuity especially between certain of the chronicles and major eras represented in the "Series" with such a long gap in between. Grayson almost always refers to the entire set of chronicles as the "Babylonian Chronicle Series:" And Grayson defends the use of the term "series."

So, you are right. And I did not catch the full gist of your question. I thought you were asking about the grammar of requiring quotation marks when referring to the "Babylonian Chronicle Series." You can see that the answer to the grammar question is 'NO' by her use of quotation marks only in the capitalized word, and comparing it with his use, without quotation marks, in the non-capitalized word. But if you were referring to the point of her argument itself, then it's obvious you already know that she takes exception his continued use of the term "Babylonian Chronicle Series" because she thinks the word "Series" connotes too much continuity.
 
 

I believe the publications have also drawn on the fact that IF this is understood as praying to or supplicating Jesus directly, the situation has to be understood. Both Stephen and John (at Patmos) and Saul/Paul (c. Damascus) have just seen a vision or had an experience in which they knew that Jesus had just shown himself in some divine way. I think that any human, including any JW, would suddenly feel as if it were proper to pray to or supplicate Jesus directly in such a context where his immense power is somehow conveyed to us. After all, John even felt like bowing down to an angel, in Revelation 22:8-10:
…8And I am John, the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had shown me these things. 9But he said to me,“Do not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”
Also, there was a time when the Christian Scriptures were just being written, when it was appropriate to emphasize the fact that Jesus was fully "divine," because the last thing most people would remember about him was that he had been humiliated and "broken" by Rome with the punishment meted out to common criminals. The reminder that he is NOW at God's right hand was especially important for the early Christians and it was almost the "motto" of the Greek Scriptures. (Psalms 110:1 is the most quoted verse from the Hebrew Scriptures.) Stephen's vision of a glorious Lord standing at God's right hand was a direct evidence of the fulfillment of Psalms 110:1.
With this in mind, we might be surprised that there are not more scriptures that raise Jesus to a level that makes him seem almost equal with his Father, who is also spoken of as his God. But even in these verses where the Bible is emphasizing the divinity of the Son of God as opposed to the humanity of the Son of God, there is almost always a clear path away from understanding these passages as a direct claim of equality. (And even if one or two of these verses appeared to make the claim unambiguously, we would still need to understand it in the wider context of many more passages that directly state that the Son of God is NOT equal with the Father.) This happens again and again. In John 1:1, in John 10:33, in John 20:28 (Thomas addressing "My Lord and My God"). I think that even many scholarly Trinitarians have noticed that what they sometimes call proof-texts almost always contain a loop-hole, or some ambiguity to overcome. We rightly point out the ambiguities, and believe they are purposeful. I think some Trinitarians believe that these few passages, even though they contain some amgiguity, are meant to override verses to the contrary. It seems much more reasonable to see them as necessary to raise awareness of the status of Jesus which might otherwise be unimaginable to the first Jewish Christians, but always in the wider context of many more scriptures that must be understood with these verses. 
I often get the impression that Trinitarians are claiming that 5 ambiguous verses somehow overcome the teaching of 50 unambiguous verses. Surely it's best to consider that 50 unambiguous verses are teaching the basic truth, yet, on their own, they might inadvertently emphasize the inferior position of the Son of God. And while that might be technically true (that the Son is inferior to Almighty God) a full understanding might be better tempered with some of the more ambiguous verses that will remind us that this "inferiority" is a technicality, but that it should not diminish our regard for Jesus and and the greatness and wonder of his new position in heaven that is still not fathomed by mere humans. 

LOL. And there was me thinking at one point, I think it was beginning of July, we had all reached an amicable conclusion, something to the effect of we will agree to disagree and still be friends, but then the thread got re-visited with added fury a month later, and more than doubled from a previous 6 pages to 13. It looks like it just can't be given a rest, but those little humorous interludes do brighten things up a bit, and give everyone a breather, to gather strength for the next "scholastic" onslaught

Not to worry. This isn't a real thread. Not exactly anyway.
I was asked to try my hand at splitting off some of the diversionary topics from the thread called:
Perhaps you heard of it. Well, as you can tell from the image attached to the link, above, it quickly turned into thread about buzzards and elephants and even took a detour down Broadway. So I did a quick review of the thread and decided that it might be good to just see if I can split off only several of the side topics, so that this new thread becomes a place for the obvious side topics that always come up in a 1914 discussion, such as:
You have no right to discuss this because it's apostasy even to bring it up! You must be a follower of Carl Olof Jonsson You must be a follower of Raymond Franz You are not being loyal and faithful to the Governing Body You must have bad motives, ego issues, etc. etc. In addition since that other thread is at least 15 pages too long, this new one will likely have a lot of free space, comparatively. So we might also just move over a few of the posts that weren't directly responding to the subject, although they might make interesting side topics, which could even be broken off of this thread someday. Feel free to make suggestions. 
I wouldn't worry about this too much. In a few days, probably both of these threads could move to the back of the line. For anyone who worries about such things I won't move posts if I find out that it loses any reactions it had. Wouldn't want to change that. But I'm also worried about the chronological order of the posts and continuity of comments. So if it's not working out, then most things will just stay where they were.

You think I can control this thing? I'm at least half the problem!
[edited to add:]
Notice: Since this thread is so long. I might be splitting off some of the unrelated topics to other threads. I just learned that I can do this, so I will only move my own at first to get used to this awesome power. Also, I have no interest in moving around every little comment that people make just because it's off topic. There would be no point to breaking off to a musical-themed thread, for example, because I don't think anyone expected to start a full-blown discussion on that topic. But there have been a few topics that might be interesting as stand-alone topics.

Spiritism and astrology have had in influence on a lot of our words. Speaking of "influence," consider how the word "influenza" was also a reference to how a certain illness was due to the "influence" of bad stars. And speaking of "consider," the word comes from Latin for concerning oneself "with the stars" con=with + siderial=star, although that one could have been made up by some "lunatic" (influenced by the moon). And even "chronology" is from the god Saturn who was "Chronos" in Greek, the god of time.  Ultimately we even get words like martial from Mars, and more obvious ones like mercurial, saturnine, capricious (Capricorn), jovial (Jove/Jupiter), venerial (Venus)
Love your library.

Actually, Acts 1:7 says there is something wrong with us banging on about the generation. It says it's none of our concern. It's not in our domain. Knowledge of the times and seasons does not belong to us. It belongs to the Father alone. Anyone who tries is overstepping their authority.
(Acts 1:7) . . .” 7 He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction [NWT fn: "authority"].
This is why Paul could say that we don't need anything written to us about chronology:
(1 Thessalonians 5:1) Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you.

Not to worry. This isn't a real thread. Not exactly anyway.
I was asked to try my hand at splitting off some of the diversionary topics from the thread called:
Perhaps you heard of it. Well, as you can tell from the image attached to the link, above, it quickly turned into thread about buzzards and elephants and even took a detour down Broadway. So I did a quick review of the thread and decided that it might be good to just see if I can split off only several of the side topics, so that this new thread becomes a place for the obvious side topics that always come up in a 1914 discussion, such as:
You have no right to discuss this because it's apostasy even to bring it up! You must be a follower of Carl Olof Jonsson You must be a follower of Raymond Franz You are not being loyal and faithful to the Governing Body You must have bad motives, ego issues, etc. etc. In addition since that other thread is at least 15 pages too long, this new one will likely have a lot of free space, comparatively. So we might also just move over a few of the posts that weren't directly responding to the subject, although they might make interesting side topics, which could even be broken off of this thread someday. Feel free to make suggestions. 
I wouldn't worry about this too much. In a few days, probably both of these threads could move to the back of the line. For anyone who worries about such things I won't move posts if I find out that it loses any reactions it had. Wouldn't want to change that. But I'm also worried about the chronological order of the posts and continuity of comments. So if it's not working out, then most things will just stay where they were.

You'd think so, right?
Sometimes I think that even if the Bible had already called Jesus "the king of kings" and "ruler of the kings of the earth" that it still wouldn't be enough.

You think I can control this thing? I'm at least half the problem!
[edited to add:]
Notice: Since this thread is so long. I might be splitting off some of the unrelated topics to other threads. I just learned that I can do this, so I will only move my own at first to get used to this awesome power. Also, I have no interest in moving around every little comment that people make just because it's off topic. There would be no point to breaking off to a musical-themed thread, for example, because I don't think anyone expected to start a full-blown discussion on that topic. But there have been a few topics that might be interesting as stand-alone topics.