Jump to content
The World News Media

JW Insider

Member
  • Posts

    7,835
  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won

    463

Reputation Activity

  1. Sad
    JW Insider got a reaction from Anna in ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view   
    Of course. The first thing to remember is that any time the Watchtower tries to defend a chronology that is not based on Biblical or secular evidence, you should start by looking at the words that the Watchtower has left out when a quote is made. In other words, the resources that the Watchtower uses are often well-respected resources, such as the Soncino commentary. When the topic is chronology, you can just assume that a respected commentary doesn't actually say what the Watchtower is trying to make you think that it says.
    So, without even looking you will know that these commentaries have probably been misused, misquoted, or selectively quoted. This way it will give the appearance that respected scholarship supports the Watchtower view, when of course, it doesn't. Here's the full Soncino quote from Insight, but with the Soncino chronology added back in where the Watchtower left it out:
    *** it-1 p. 462 Chronology ***
    The Jewish understanding of this prophecy, as presented in the Soncino Books of the Bible (commentary on Ezekiel, pp. 20, 21) is: “The guilt of the Northern Kingdom extended over a period of 390 years ([according to the] Seder Olam [the earliest postexilic chronicle preserved in the Hebrew language], [and Rabbis] Rashi and Ibn Ezra). Abarbanel, quoted by Malbim, reckons the period of Samaria’s guilt from the time when the schism took place under Rehoboam (c. 932 BCE). . . until the fall of Jerusalem. [*footnote] . . . The right [side, on which Ezekiel lay] indicates the south, i.e. the Kingdom of Judah which lay to the south or right. . . . Judah’s corruption lasted forty years beginning soon after Samaria’s fall. According to Malbim, the time is reckoned from the thirteenth year of the reign of Josiah (c. 626 BCE). . . when Jeremiah began his ministry. (Jer. i. 2).”—Edited by A. Cohen, London, 1950.
    *[footnote] The entire Soncino Ezekiel commentary is consistent at dating the destruction of the Temple in 586 BCE, as is the Soncino commentary on Jeremiah, etc.
    The Watch Tower publications follow the very unethical practice of tacking on an extra 20 years to the prior dates before 607, without any explanation. This is why it isn't just 587/6 that they invariably leave out of scholarly quotations, but they must leave out most other dates related to the period. But in this case, they not only left out the dates, they also completely left out the "Jewish understanding of the prophecy." To save space I didn't include those explanations in the two other places where words were left out. The Jewish understanding, per Soncino, is that Ezekiel meant what he said: 390 years PLUS 40 years. The Watchtower completely disagrees saying:
    *** w72 5/15 pp. 310-311 Do Not Try God’s Patience Too Far ***
    However, in the actual fulfillment upon ancient Jerusalem, the forty days for the “error” of the “house of Judah” would run concurrently with the last forty days of the three hundred and ninety days for the “error” of the “house of Israel.” The unit of time measurement that Jehovah gave to Ezekiel was, “a day for a year,” made emphatic by being repeated. Accordingly, the forty years for the “error” of the “house of Judah” were to run concurrently with the last forty years of the 390-year period for the “error” of “the house of Israel.” The last forty years of that time period began in the year 647 B.C.E. Both time periods, the longer one and the shorter one, had to converge on the same date, for ancient Jerusalem was destroyed only once, namely, in 607 B.C.E.
    You see what they did? They pretended they were giving the "Jewish understanding of this prophecy, as presented in the Soncino Books of the Bible." Yet, they not only left out the chronology of the Jewish understanding, they completely left out the "Jewish understanding," too.
    And of course the Watchtower added about 20 years to the thirteenth year of Josiah to change 626 to 647. If you did this in any scholarly setting, it would be considered devious. It's called "academic dishonesty."
     
  2. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Arauna in ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view   
    It was with sadness that I read a certain comment above. In the end - if Jehovah is truly a reality - then he is the one who will dispense  justice and will judge those who use their positions of trust for in-fighting etc.  Has there been injustices perpetrated ? I do not doubt it at all! -  but some things we cannot resolve now.  Let it go,    
    Jehovah will compensate all people for whatever they lost.  Will some of the anointed beat up their brothers? - Yes!  Jesus predicted the possibility.  Can worldly courts sort this out?  NO.
    Some CEOs (even of Fortune500 companies) mess up a company and then quickly leave with a golden handshake and then move on to the next company to go and mess it up too!  I have seen this in the world and yes - I knew a soft-spoken elder who did this.....and got away with it -  it happens- rarely - but it does happen.
    I am fortunately a sister so I do not have to deal with male egos but I am savvy enough to know that a definite sign of the spirit of the world or Satan is a love to control others - not necessarily openly.... but subtly.  I am very aware that not all have left their egos behind (as instructed by scripture) and hence to not handle all matters in kindness and love.......
    Jehovah will take all mitigating factors into account. Jehovah deeply cares for victims of injustice.....  I personally think injustice does hurt any victim very deeply.  
     
  3. Thanks
    JW Insider got a reaction from Juan Rivera in ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view   
    I've mentioned this before on the forum, but I was traveling with Brother Schroeder (along with Charlotte and Judah) in 1978 where we visited several countries in Europe together (England, France, Spain, Italy) but I had to do work for about a week in the Athens branch and didn't catch up to him again when he went to Innsbruck, Bern, Wiesbaden, Hamburg, Copenhagen, and a couple other places for meetings specifically about Carl Olof Jonsson. I knew in early 1978 that Jonsson had sent his manuscript a few months earlier, and had asked for comment, but no researchers at Bethel would touch it. I saw a photocopied portion of it in 1978, but actually never saw the entire manuscript until Brother Rusk had it in 1980. (Rusk and I were going over logistics for my upcoming wedding, but I asked him about it when he had it across his desk, and was making some notes.) He never responded to the manuscript either. One brother in Writing told me that no one even wanted it on their desk because they knew it was the same information, basically, that they had already come across in researching the Aid book. Similar information had come in from two different sources in the 1960's, too. None of the research projects that Brother Schroeder assigned to me were directly related to it, and I was not aware of Schroeder's specific actions he was taking with reference to Jonsson, until I read about it decades later.
    But Jonsson has put copies of his correspondence with the Society up on a website:
    http://kristenfrihet.se/english/corr.htm
    Jonsson admits to making at least one mistake in this correspondence, but the Society does appear to be the one "playing dirty." I would love to say that I don't believe it, but I was working even more closely with Schroeder back when he showed all the same "qualities" in his campaign to get rid of R.Franz from late in 1979 right up into the 1980's when he was finally successful. It was not something that a squeamish person (like me) wanted to see.
    I don't really know what kind of a person Jonsson was, but I suspect that he is mostly right in the claims he makes about how he was treated. Also, I can just imagine even some of the personalities that show up on this forum and imagine what they would be like if they thought they had the actual power to cast someone into Gehenna, for example.
  4. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from James Thomas Rook Jr. in ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view   
    I've mentioned this before on the forum, but I was traveling with Brother Schroeder (along with Charlotte and Judah) in 1978 where we visited several countries in Europe together (England, France, Spain, Italy) but I had to do work for about a week in the Athens branch and didn't catch up to him again when he went to Innsbruck, Bern, Wiesbaden, Hamburg, Copenhagen, and a couple other places for meetings specifically about Carl Olof Jonsson. I knew in early 1978 that Jonsson had sent his manuscript a few months earlier, and had asked for comment, but no researchers at Bethel would touch it. I saw a photocopied portion of it in 1978, but actually never saw the entire manuscript until Brother Rusk had it in 1980. (Rusk and I were going over logistics for my upcoming wedding, but I asked him about it when he had it across his desk, and was making some notes.) He never responded to the manuscript either. One brother in Writing told me that no one even wanted it on their desk because they knew it was the same information, basically, that they had already come across in researching the Aid book. Similar information had come in from two different sources in the 1960's, too. None of the research projects that Brother Schroeder assigned to me were directly related to it, and I was not aware of Schroeder's specific actions he was taking with reference to Jonsson, until I read about it decades later.
    But Jonsson has put copies of his correspondence with the Society up on a website:
    http://kristenfrihet.se/english/corr.htm
    Jonsson admits to making at least one mistake in this correspondence, but the Society does appear to be the one "playing dirty." I would love to say that I don't believe it, but I was working even more closely with Schroeder back when he showed all the same "qualities" in his campaign to get rid of R.Franz from late in 1979 right up into the 1980's when he was finally successful. It was not something that a squeamish person (like me) wanted to see.
    I don't really know what kind of a person Jonsson was, but I suspect that he is mostly right in the claims he makes about how he was treated. Also, I can just imagine even some of the personalities that show up on this forum and imagine what they would be like if they thought they had the actual power to cast someone into Gehenna, for example.
  5. Like
    JW Insider got a reaction from Ann O'Maly in ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view   
    I've mentioned this before on the forum, but I was traveling with Brother Schroeder (along with Charlotte and Judah) in 1978 where we visited several countries in Europe together (England, France, Spain, Italy) but I had to do work for about a week in the Athens branch and didn't catch up to him again when he went to Innsbruck, Bern, Wiesbaden, Hamburg, Copenhagen, and a couple other places for meetings specifically about Carl Olof Jonsson. I knew in early 1978 that Jonsson had sent his manuscript a few months earlier, and had asked for comment, but no researchers at Bethel would touch it. I saw a photocopied portion of it in 1978, but actually never saw the entire manuscript until Brother Rusk had it in 1980. (Rusk and I were going over logistics for my upcoming wedding, but I asked him about it when he had it across his desk, and was making some notes.) He never responded to the manuscript either. One brother in Writing told me that no one even wanted it on their desk because they knew it was the same information, basically, that they had already come across in researching the Aid book. Similar information had come in from two different sources in the 1960's, too. None of the research projects that Brother Schroeder assigned to me were directly related to it, and I was not aware of Schroeder's specific actions he was taking with reference to Jonsson, until I read about it decades later.
    But Jonsson has put copies of his correspondence with the Society up on a website:
    http://kristenfrihet.se/english/corr.htm
    Jonsson admits to making at least one mistake in this correspondence, but the Society does appear to be the one "playing dirty." I would love to say that I don't believe it, but I was working even more closely with Schroeder back when he showed all the same "qualities" in his campaign to get rid of R.Franz from late in 1979 right up into the 1980's when he was finally successful. It was not something that a squeamish person (like me) wanted to see.
    I don't really know what kind of a person Jonsson was, but I suspect that he is mostly right in the claims he makes about how he was treated. Also, I can just imagine even some of the personalities that show up on this forum and imagine what they would be like if they thought they had the actual power to cast someone into Gehenna, for example.
  6. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from ComfortMyPeople in 144,000   
    "Spring of 1918" is no longer considered the definitive time for the first resurrection, and the temple inspection is no longer dated to 1918, either. That's because these were both based on time parallels and type-antitype utilization that were not specifically sanctioned by Scripture. Therefore "spring of 1918" as the time of the first resurrection, was turned into just "an interesting possibility."
    *** w07 1/1 p. 28 par. 12 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
    Jesus Christ was anointed as the future King of God’s Kingdom in the fall of 29 C.E. Three and a half years later, in the spring of 33 C.E., he was resurrected as a mighty spirit person. Could it, then, be reasoned that since Jesus was enthroned in the fall of 1914, the resurrection of his faithful anointed followers began three and a half years later, in the spring of 1918? That is an interesting possibility. Although this cannot be directly confirmed in the Bible
    However, the marking of dates in 1918 has not been rejected for the 1,260 days interpretation. These are considered to be almost literal days from December 28, 1914 up until June 21, 1918. The "World Government" book came out while I was at Bethel, and when it was pointed out that the number of days is wrong, future references to this interpretation stopped using the specific days and just rounded off to the nearest month.
    *** go chap. 8 pp. 128-129 pars. 16-18 Marked Days During the “Time of the End” ***
    16 The “finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces” evidently occurred on June 21, 1918. On that day the American federal court sentenced the president and the secretary-treasurer of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society and five of their headquarters associates to long prison terms, amounting to a total of 140 years. It is true that it was on May 7, 1918, that these officers of the Society and their prominent companions were arrested by federal officers, but they yet had to stand trial and be sentenced, without benefit of bail. So the close of World War I on November 11, 1918, found these seven leading representatives of the International Bible Students, and a close co-worker, in the federal penitentiary at Atlanta, Georgia, U.S.A., to which they had been shipped from Brooklyn, New York, on July 4, 1918. Thus a high court of the Anglo-American Dual World Power did deliver a shattering blow to Jehovah’s “holy people” on June 21, 1918.
    17 When, therefore, did the three years and a half, which were to be climaxed by that shattering action against dedicated, baptized Christians, begin? How was that beginning marked?
    18 Well, June 21, 1918, fell, according to the Biblical lunar calendar, on Tammuz 11, 1918. Three lunar years back from that, or Tammuz 11, 1915, fell on June 23, 1915. Then the half of a lunar year, or six lunar months, back from that would be Tebeth 11, 1914, which coincided with December 28, 1914.—See The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, under the heading “Jewish Calendar for 200 Years,” pages 634-639.
    The last paragraph is little more than a sleight-of-hand trick. The actual number of days is 1,271 here, not 1,260. Counting back from June 21, 1918 actually only reaches to January 8, 1915. That doesn't change at all by invoking a Jewish calendar. But the writer, Fred Franz, was pretty good at these things, and found a way, through obfuscation, to make the range reach back into the year 1914, which was his obvious goal. He was only able to get it to include the last 4 days of 1914, but at least it included the all-important year.
    When I was baptized (1967) the 1,260 days were the 1,277 days from November 7, 1914 to May 7, 1918. When I was born (1957)  however the 1,260 days were the 1,278 days from about October 1, 1914 to about April 1, 1918. Just 2 years later (1959) the 1,260 days were the 1,233 (min) to 1,247 (max) days from the first half of November 1914 until April 1, 1918. And while at Bethel, the 1,260 days were the 1,271 days from December 28, 1914 to June 21, 1918. The problem with all of these dates is that if you give it an actual event in 1918 then you can't reach any significant event in 1914, and if you give a significant event in 1914, you can't reach any significant date in 1918.
  7. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to bruceq in Governing Body: Does it show loyalty or disloyalty to question the GB?   
    What Is Babylon the Great?
    00:00   04:25 Download
    Audio recordings download options MP3 The BibleÂ’s answer
    Babylon the Great, described in the book of Revelation, is the world’s collective body of false religions, which God rejects. * (Revelation 14:8;17:5; 18:21) Although those religions differ in many respects, in one way or another they all lead people away from the worship of the true God, Jehovah.—Deuteronomy 4:35.
    Keys to identifying Babylon the Great
    Babylon the Great is a symbol. The Bible describes her as “a woman” and a “great prostitute,” having a name that is “a mystery: ‘Babylon the Great.’” (Revelation 17:1, 3, 5) The book of Revelation is presented “in signs,” so it is reasonable to conclude that Babylon the Great is a symbol, not a literal woman. (Revelation 1:1) In addition, she “sits on many waters,” which represent “peoples and crowds and nations and tongues.” (Revelation 17:1, 15) A literal woman could not do that.
    Babylon the Great represents an international entity. She is called “the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.” (Revelation 17:18) Thus, she has international scope and influence.
    Babylon the Great is a religious entity, not a political or commercial one. Ancient Babylon was a profoundly religious city, known for its use of spiritistic “spells” and “sorceries.” (Isaiah 47:1,12, 13; Jeremiah 50:1, 2, 38) In fact, false religion in opposition to the true God, Jehovah, was practiced there. (Genesis 10:8, 9; 11:2-4, 8) The rulers of Babylon arrogantly exalted themselves above Jehovah and his worship. (Isaiah 14:4, 13, 14; Daniel 5:2-4, 23) Likewise, Babylon the Great is known for her “spiritistic practices.” That shows her to be a religious organization.—Revelation 18:23.
    Babylon the Great cannot be a political entity, because “the kings of the earth” mourn her destruction. (Revelation 17:1, 2; 18:9) Neither is she a commercial power, because the Bible distinguishes her from “the merchants of the earth.”—Revelation 18:11, 15.
      Stela of Babylonian King Nabonidus with symbols of the triad of gods Sin, Ishtar, and Shamash
    Babylon the Great fits the profile of false religion. Rather than teaching people how to draw closer to the true God, Jehovah, false religion actually leads them to worship other gods. The Bible calls this “spiritual prostitution.” (Leviticus 20:6; Exodus 34:15, 16) Beliefs such as the Trinity and the immortality of the soul and practices such as the use of images in worship date back to ancient Babylon and continue to permeate false religion. These religions also blend their worship with love for the world. The Bible refers to this form of unfaithfulness as spiritual adultery.—James 4:4.
    False religion’s wealth and showy display of it match the picture that the Bible paints of Babylon the Great, who is “clothed in purple and scarlet” and “adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls.” (Revelation 17:4) Babylon the Great is the source of “the disgusting things of the earth,” or the teachings and actions that actually dishonor God. (Revelation 17:5) The members of false religion are the “peoples and crowds and nations and tongues” who support Babylon the Great.—Revelation 17:15.
    Babylon the Great is responsible for the deaths “of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.” (Revelation 18:24) Throughout history, false religion has not only fomented wars and fueled acts of terrorism but has also failed to teach people the truth about Jehovah, the God of love. (1 John 4:8) This failure has contributed to much bloodshed. For good reason, those who want to please God must “get out of her,” separating themselves from false religion.—Revelation 18:4;2 Corinthians 6:14-17.
    https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/babylon-the-great/
  8. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Arauna in ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view   
    LOL.  Poetry got me through my husband's sudden death and a daughter with cancer..... so it had its function...... and I had to go back to work to keep food on the table...and in the process I learnt a few more lessons about life. Particularly - when to let go.  There is a time for everything.... also to let go.
    We all have ego's and want to be heard  but I honestly believe that if you have been through severe problems where you only are grateful to have a life.... you realize how precious your gift of life is ..... to have an opinion, to be seen and heard or have influence -  all that other jazz -is just the trimmings. The substance of your life is what is in yourself and what is between you and Jehovah.
    We will soon face the most dire threats to our lives.   We are now facing the beginning of the escalation of anarchy.  Our lives is the only precious thing we have and this is all that Jehovah promised us - our lives.
    So let GO of the unimportant grievances, unimportant hurt feelings and all the unimportant ideas. Let GO of the ego and the traps and snares it brings to our lives.  Time is running out.  Like the illustration of the 10 virgins - make sure you are one of those who have enough oil to shine your lamp while waiting for the groom to arrive.
  9. Like
    JW Insider got a reaction from The Librarian in 144,000   
    Found a couple of the references. In the second one, the brackets are in the original quote.
    *** w56 6/1 p. 343 par. 3 Keep Pace by Conforming to Theocratic Requirements ***
    After 1919, and especially since 1935, great crowds of people, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, began to assemble to the New World society for theocratic instruction.
    *** w51 12/15 p. 752 par. 14 Release Under Way to the Ends of the Earth ***
    14 Have this “great crowd” come to Zion and submitted to the theocratic rule of Jehovah who is seated on the heavenly throne? They have; for one of the elderly persons identifies the crowd to John and says: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation [this locates their coming between 1919 and Armageddon] . . . "
    *** w62 6/1 p. 340 par. 16 Why Should Christians Accept and Discharge Responsibility? ***
    As one of the elderly persons informed John concerning the “great crowd” of “other sheep”: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” (Rev. 7:9-14) These meek, sheeplike people, who, according to John’s vision, are an unnumbered great crowd, began to come to the royal house or temple after they heard God’s kingdom preached to them from A.D. 1919 onward.
    I think that after enough years, it was not thought that those who were alive in 1919 could survive long enough to be part of a "great crowd" who come out of the great tribulation and survive into the new order (i.e., new world, new earth). Technically, we should typically add the term "other sheep" so that it doesn't appear to apply only to those who live long enough (even from 1935) to survive out of the great tribulation. Now, 1919 is almost exclusively with reference to the "anointed."
    *** w07 11/1 p. 15 par. 6 Highlights From the Books of Obadiah, Jonah, and Micah ***
    Since 1919, anointed Christians have been collected together “like a flock in the pen.” Being joined by the “great crowd” of “other sheep,” especially since 1935 . . .
    *** w02 2/1 p. 18 par. 16 Are You Among Those Loved by God? ***
    Since 1919, they have brought forth Kingdom fruitage in abundance, first other anointed Christians and, since 1935, an ever-increasing “great crowd” of companions.
    *** w91 1/15 p. 26 The Pure Language Unites a Great Crowd of Worshipers ***
    Ezekiel pictures the spirit-anointed remnant, particularly since 1919. Especially since 1935 have they been joined by the “great crowd.”
    *** w91 5/1 p. 22 Thrilling Visions That Strengthen Faith ***
    Blowing the fifth calls forth locusts that picture anointed Christians swarming forth to do battle from 1919 onward. With the sixth trumpet blast, a cavalry attack takes place. In fulfillment, anointed ones, reinforced since 1935 by the “great crowd,”
     
     
  10. Like
    JW Insider got a reaction from Anna in 144,000   
    That article from 1951 does indeed indicate that the Watchtower had been teaching that from the death of Jesus (until 1931) all Christians were only allowed to be in line for the heavenly gift, the heavenly calling. Note this from 1965:
    *** w65 3/1 p. 148 pars. 18-20 Part Two ***
    However, down till recently, the Fine Shepherd Jesus Christ was not calling out and gathering his “other sheep” in hope of everlasting life on earth.—John 10:16.
    19 The inspired Scriptures show that God set a definite time for himself to gather together the “other sheep” for whom he reserves everlasting salvation on the Paradise earth under the kingdom of his dear Son. God’s provision for such “other sheep” is not a sort of safety net to catch all those whom he calls to the heavenly inheritance but who do not meet the requirements for it by a Christian course faithful to the death. Christians who have the heavenly inheritance reserved for themselves must either prove worthy of entering into it or else fail altogether without any other life prospects to fall back on. . . .
    20 According to the historical facts, the gathering of the “great crowd” of other sheep began not before 1931 C.E., but particularly from 1935 C.E. forward.
    So the 1951 and the 1965 articles said that the heavenly hope to be one of the 144,000 was the only hope open to Christians during those centuries following Christ's death [up until 1931].
    *** w52 1/15 p. 62 Questions From Readers ***
    . . .  the Scriptural limitation of 144,000 placed on the number being in Christ’s body, and which position was the only one open to Christians during those centuries?
    The answer to that "Question From Readers" implied that most of these ones must have been only "professed Christians" and "not in line for the high [heavenly] calling." The reader might assume therefore that they could have been in line for an earthly calling, the "other sheep." But we were still teaching even in 1965 that there was no other calling between 33 CE and 1931.**[see footnote]
    **footnote: Actually, for a time, up until the 1950's and 1960's, it was taught that the group identified in 1935, had not only been called since 1931, but since 1919, and we just hadn't recognized it yet. The reasoning, if I remember right, is that John saw them come out of the Great Tribulation, and we believed (at the time) that the Great Tribulation was still in effect up until 1919, before a break in the tribulation (on account of the chosen ones). I'll find the reference if anyone is interested.
    I asked Brother Fred Franz about this, and he said that many of these 100's of thousands of Christian martyrs must be in Gehenna. He said even if they were just swept up in the Christian movement, they must have had a taste of the heavenly gift. 
    (Hebrews 6:4-6) 4 For as regards those who were once enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift and who have become partakers of holy spirit 5 and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, 6 but have fallen away, it is impossible to revive them again to repentance,. . .
    This idea (that hundreds of thousands of persons who were willing to die for their Christian faith ended up in Gehenna) didn't sound right to my wife, who asked Brother Rusk about it. Brother Rusk was the Watchtower's Editor at the time, and he also was the brother who performed our wedding ceremony. He implied that all these reported numbers of  martyrs were just too high, so that these reports were all probably exaggerations in the first place, and so not to worry about it. If you knew the two men, you might have easily guessed that Franz would be judgmental, but Rusk would be more flexible with the Gehenna idea. At least Rusk never made the same claim that we could judge them to Gehenna, but he wouldn't deny it either. I wanted to believe, of course, that if they had not made it to full Christian maturity, then Hebrews 6 didn't apply. After all, the verses leading up to Hebrews 6:4 are these:
    (Hebrews 5:12-6:2) 12 For although by now you should be teachers, you again need someone to teach you from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God, and you have gone back to needing milk, not solid food. 13 For everyone who continues to feed on milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a young child. 14 But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their powers of discernment trained to distinguish both right and wrong. 6 Therefore, now that we have moved beyond the primary doctrine about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying a foundation again, namely, repentance from dead works and faith in God, 2 the teaching on baptisms and the laying on of the hands, the resurrection of the dead and everlasting judgment.
    JUST ONE LITTLE PROBLEM . . .
    Of course, as ex-JWs will often point out, since upwards of 56,000 were partaking around 1931-1935, and there are something like 19,000 partaking now, this would mean that more than half the 144,000 are already accounted for among Jehovah's Witnesses. That would mean that in those 1,898 years (between 33 and 1931) that only about 69,000 Christians existed on earth. That works out to be about 36 new Christians every year. But we also know that there were at least 10,000 Christians in the very first century. Leaving us with 59,000 in about the same number of years, or 31 new Christians every year. It would almost look like the Gates of Gehenna had overpowered Christianity.
  11. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Thinking in ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view   
    I think the content of the verse in Micah about having a "waiting attitude" is good, but the context might seem a bit harsh in that the verse applies to waiting on Jehovah when it's an enemy we are up against. I don't think of the Governing Body as an enemy here, and I don't think you do either.
    In fact, the only issue I see is that a long-standing tradition made sense for many years, but has turned out to cause more problems than it solved at this point. Still, I don't think it is even that big of a problem when it comes to the day-to-day life of an average Witness.
    After all, whether 1914 is a necessary doctrine or not:
    We still know that we are living in the time of the end, or the "last days" even if that phrase had the same meaning to Christians in the first century. We still know that Satan has been cast down and walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour someone, because his time is short. This is also true even if it had the same meaning in the first century. We also wait for his final abyss and subsequent final demise. We still have a preaching work that is just as important as ever. Jesus is still "King of Kings" and ruler of those who rule the earth. The kingdom is still our focus, and continues to be the theme of our hopes and prayers. We still know that we must overcome critical times, hard to deal with, just as Paul warned Timothy that he would meet up with. We still know that Jesus is present, wherever even two or three are gathered in his name. We know that Jesus will be with us right up until the conclusion of the system of things. We don't live for a date, or serve for a date anyway, so whether or not the end comes in our lifetime or we find out about it after a moment of "sleep" in death, the important thing is still our love for God and neighbor, and "what sort of persons we ought to be." So probably the only thing that we might consider to be different is the idea that the Gentile kings had their day and the times of these nations and their kings ended 103 years ago. This, ironically, is the only prediction that we ever said we got right about 1914 in the first place. So it might end up requiring a bit of humility, but there's nothing wrong with a bit of humility, either.
  12. Like
    JW Insider got a reaction from The Librarian in 144,000   
    That article from 1951 does indeed indicate that the Watchtower had been teaching that from the death of Jesus (until 1931) all Christians were only allowed to be in line for the heavenly gift, the heavenly calling. Note this from 1965:
    *** w65 3/1 p. 148 pars. 18-20 Part Two ***
    However, down till recently, the Fine Shepherd Jesus Christ was not calling out and gathering his “other sheep” in hope of everlasting life on earth.—John 10:16.
    19 The inspired Scriptures show that God set a definite time for himself to gather together the “other sheep” for whom he reserves everlasting salvation on the Paradise earth under the kingdom of his dear Son. God’s provision for such “other sheep” is not a sort of safety net to catch all those whom he calls to the heavenly inheritance but who do not meet the requirements for it by a Christian course faithful to the death. Christians who have the heavenly inheritance reserved for themselves must either prove worthy of entering into it or else fail altogether without any other life prospects to fall back on. . . .
    20 According to the historical facts, the gathering of the “great crowd” of other sheep began not before 1931 C.E., but particularly from 1935 C.E. forward.
    So the 1951 and the 1965 articles said that the heavenly hope to be one of the 144,000 was the only hope open to Christians during those centuries following Christ's death [up until 1931].
    *** w52 1/15 p. 62 Questions From Readers ***
    . . .  the Scriptural limitation of 144,000 placed on the number being in Christ’s body, and which position was the only one open to Christians during those centuries?
    The answer to that "Question From Readers" implied that most of these ones must have been only "professed Christians" and "not in line for the high [heavenly] calling." The reader might assume therefore that they could have been in line for an earthly calling, the "other sheep." But we were still teaching even in 1965 that there was no other calling between 33 CE and 1931.**[see footnote]
    **footnote: Actually, for a time, up until the 1950's and 1960's, it was taught that the group identified in 1935, had not only been called since 1931, but since 1919, and we just hadn't recognized it yet. The reasoning, if I remember right, is that John saw them come out of the Great Tribulation, and we believed (at the time) that the Great Tribulation was still in effect up until 1919, before a break in the tribulation (on account of the chosen ones). I'll find the reference if anyone is interested.
    I asked Brother Fred Franz about this, and he said that many of these 100's of thousands of Christian martyrs must be in Gehenna. He said even if they were just swept up in the Christian movement, they must have had a taste of the heavenly gift. 
    (Hebrews 6:4-6) 4 For as regards those who were once enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift and who have become partakers of holy spirit 5 and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, 6 but have fallen away, it is impossible to revive them again to repentance,. . .
    This idea (that hundreds of thousands of persons who were willing to die for their Christian faith ended up in Gehenna) didn't sound right to my wife, who asked Brother Rusk about it. Brother Rusk was the Watchtower's Editor at the time, and he also was the brother who performed our wedding ceremony. He implied that all these reported numbers of  martyrs were just too high, so that these reports were all probably exaggerations in the first place, and so not to worry about it. If you knew the two men, you might have easily guessed that Franz would be judgmental, but Rusk would be more flexible with the Gehenna idea. At least Rusk never made the same claim that we could judge them to Gehenna, but he wouldn't deny it either. I wanted to believe, of course, that if they had not made it to full Christian maturity, then Hebrews 6 didn't apply. After all, the verses leading up to Hebrews 6:4 are these:
    (Hebrews 5:12-6:2) 12 For although by now you should be teachers, you again need someone to teach you from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God, and you have gone back to needing milk, not solid food. 13 For everyone who continues to feed on milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a young child. 14 But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their powers of discernment trained to distinguish both right and wrong. 6 Therefore, now that we have moved beyond the primary doctrine about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying a foundation again, namely, repentance from dead works and faith in God, 2 the teaching on baptisms and the laying on of the hands, the resurrection of the dead and everlasting judgment.
    JUST ONE LITTLE PROBLEM . . .
    Of course, as ex-JWs will often point out, since upwards of 56,000 were partaking around 1931-1935, and there are something like 19,000 partaking now, this would mean that more than half the 144,000 are already accounted for among Jehovah's Witnesses. That would mean that in those 1,898 years (between 33 and 1931) that only about 69,000 Christians existed on earth. That works out to be about 36 new Christians every year. But we also know that there were at least 10,000 Christians in the very first century. Leaving us with 59,000 in about the same number of years, or 31 new Christians every year. It would almost look like the Gates of Gehenna had overpowered Christianity.
  13. Haha
    JW Insider reacted to TrueTomHarley in ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view   
    though not especially relevant, I came across this witticism:
    Give a man a poem and he will starve for a day. Teach him to be a poet, and he will starve for a lifetime.
  14. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Arauna in ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view   
    Thanks Anna for reaching out to me.  I believe in freedom of thought and freedom of speech. My character is also known for being a free spirit...but not too free!  I am extremely friendly, always smiling and always caring and helpful - at least that is what I strive to be.  There is always something that is crazy happening around me... I like to stimulate people and get feedback (in field service - we usually have a blast!)  I like organized chaos - the artistic side of me. 
    I did not grow up as a Witness but in a home with two smart parents (I was exposed to extreme freedom of thought) but life was also extremely organized.  Everything took place by the clock ...like a smooth running business. 
    I was not a difficult child but inside I rebelled against any form of rigidity.  So I understand the idea of breaking out and being free and looking at new ideas or new ways of doing things.   I am always ready to read about new things going on in the world and undercurrents most people are not aware of - but I am careful to stick to limits. There are barriers I do not pass. I studied Islam - the dark sinister part of it - but realized that I must not delve too deep into satanic things.... 
    Usually, when people (even brothers) do or say stupid things I do not take it seriously - people are just people and they can come up with some wild ideas or be too rigid.  I will even give it a thought........ BUT I do not dwell on bad things ...and try to stay away from things that I perceive to be disruptive, counter productive, unkind or misleading.  I usually speak my mind.... no hypocrisy! 
    I also believe there are lines one does not cross - self-control very important to serve Jehovah successfully!  
    When I worked for the newspaper - the best thing I learnt was to edit my own writings and cut out the ideas I liked the most....I often had to re-write....  I also wrote poetry and songs.... and this teaches one to cut unnecessary flowery ideas/words - 'self-control' in art. 
    What this taught me is:  many people self-indulge in a passion with no self-control and then cannot understand why it is not presentable to others. Self-indulgence in anything is usually not good. One can go on and on.....with it - it will bring personal satisfaction - but in the end it is not perfect because it does not "share" well with others.  This is why I now prefer to study some thoughts I can share with others or say something to stimulate others - especially in the Truth. 
    I often teach Muslims that the law of Jesus is more powerful than the 'Sharia' - (law of Moses or the law in islam). How?  Self-control.   Jews and Muslims just have to obey the law and there is not much thinking involved.   Jesus made us personally responsible to think about everything -before we do it.  We have to think how to apply the principles.  We have to think things through, before we do.  Looking at a women too much is adultery in the heart....self-control.
    I usually feel sorry for people who seriously overstep any boundaries.... they have not learnt the lessons which I call Social Studies 101.    Jehovah created us to live together as social animals.... there are boundaries one does not cross if you want to live and work together in peace and harmony..... because one infringes on the happiness and freedoms of others.  
    This why I must mention here that I have respect for some of the people on this blog - who really kept their cool when I was criticizing them.  Thanks for that!   I do sometimes test boundaries.   I go on field service and say something to test my Muslim friends to see what their boundaries are.  When I see that their minds are very closed - I work with what I have available to me....
    So - I never talk about others - only if it is positive!  Yes, some kinds of people are sometimes uncomfortable around me when I push the boundaries...... but I am watchful for body language and immediately have self-control when I see it makes another uncomfortable.
    I err as well and I do sometimes come across as rigid in my writing.  I do. But I think that Adam was thinking too much about a 'new idea' and should have curbed it - before it got out of hand.
    I believe in personal freedom curbed by personal self-control and social responsibility.
    However, the level of personal censorship now being promoted in the world is closer to fascist ideas (in some places one can now be jailed for saying of even 'thinking' something) which is going to lead to totalitarian states.
    In future, to curb the extreme ideologies floating around (which is threatening the "security" of the people and the state) - they will come down hard freedom of thought. Especially on JWs because we have learnt to think differently to the rest of mankind.  We obey the governments but stay neutral to politics and refuse all interfaith.  We are also loyal to Jehovah's government and will not refrain from preaching.
  15. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Anna in ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view   
    Yes, what Arauna said is true, humans LOVE to share their bits of knowledge, and if it’s something they’ve discovered themselves, so much more so. But it’s natural for us to do it and it’s not always bad, and nor are the motives behind it always bad.  I believe when Carl Olof Jonsson first “discovered” what he did when he researched the Gentile times, he had no bad motives. He obviously believed he had found the truth regarding that subject, and believed the WT didn’t realize they were in error. Put yourself in his shoes. Imagine how you would have felt if your “exciting” discovery was met with reservations almost bordering on indifference. His downfall was not the research, nor his discovery, nor his writing to the society about it, but his hurt ego, and pride that HIS discovery was not recognized.  We all want to be recognized for the effort we put into something, and he had put a lot of effort into it. It doesn’t feel good if someone tells you “you leave the thinking to us and you go and play in the sand”. However if someone tells you that they do not accept your opinion, that they see things differently, then humility should move us to let it go. No point in arguing or forcing our opinion on others. In the end the truth will eventually always come out.  But unfortunately he (COJ) was “trapped by his own cleverness”.
    I like what one GB member said, that everyone is entitled to their opinion, and that we should respect that. We do it in FS all the time. Don’t we just love it when someone gives us the opportunity to explain some aspect of the Bible to them, but don’t we also just have to accept that it may not change their previously held opinion? It happens all the time, and we just have to move on.  Just think the many times you reasoned with someone on the trinity, and showed them the many scriptures to refute it. But we don’t stand there browbeating them until they see things our way do we?
    Similarly in our brotherhood,  we are not all cookie cutter the same. We don’t all have the same opinion on everything. We may even have differing views on some aspects of the Truth. A very good friend of mine, a very spiritual and zealous sister, who doesn’t just talk the truth but she walks it too, does not believe in the new interpretation of the generation. She doesn’t go around trying tell others why not, I only know about it because we are very close. She doesn’t make a big deal out of it, it’s just her opinion after all, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I am sure there are many who do not believe in the overlapping generation and I am sure there are quite a few who are not convinced about 1914 either. Does that make them a “bad” Witness?  @Arauna if we were in the same congregation, and you knew me from here, would you avoid me? I am sure FS would be lovely with you, would you let me go with you, or would you say no, because I have my own opinion on the generation and 1914? I would really be interested to know your answer because your answer will show whether it really matters what I (and by extension others) believe regarding these subjects or not.
  16. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to bruceq in 1914 Problematic? Not at all!   
    Where do jw.org's visitors come from?
    Search Traffic
    What percentage of visits to this site come from a search engine?
    Search Visits
    14.10%  Notice the two big jumps right after the first verdict in Russia and then the second verdict in Russia. And since JW.ORG is banned in Russia this is a worldwide increase in searches not just people in Russia searching. As you stated Russia has done more for Jehovah than they realize. 39. For if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown; 39  but if it is from God, you will not be able to overthrow them.+ Otherwise, you may even be found fighters against God himself  .Acts 5:39.00a%  a
  17. Like
    JW Insider got a reaction from Noble Berean in 1914 Problematic? Not at all!   
    [sarcasm] It's too bad there was no pure worship during the time of Jesus and during the lives of the apostles. Otherwise the true Christian faith could have been built upon the foundation of Jesus and the apostles. [/sarcasm]
  18. Thanks
    JW Insider reacted to TrueTomHarley in ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view   
    Why am I not more like good @Araunawith his spot-on definitions of knowledge and wisdom? Is he not on track with how Jesus reasons?
    Jesus speaks a lot in the gospels, yet very little of what he says would satisfy today's disciples of argument and reason. He spins complex parables which he rarely explains. He diverts from hostile questions by asking counterquestions. He even goes for ad hominem attacks, though, as someone here mentioned, he always connects the attack with the reason, so it is more like character cross-examination in court. Nowhere does he patiently thrash out matters with his opponents. He speaks things for the heart to figure out.
    Increasingly, I think he (and Jehovah) do it on purpose, so that those too carried away with Western-style argumentation and proving themselves right will argue themselves right off the deck of the ship before it reaches Port Newsystem.
  19. Haha
    JW Insider reacted to Ann O'Maly in 1914 Problematic? Not at all!   
    Watch out, Jesus. Brother Rando has elbowed you off your judgment seat and consigned JW Insider to the fire.
  20. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Kick_Faceinator in 1914 Problematic? Not at all!   
    What Jesus said bears repeating:
    (Luke 21:8) . . .He said: “Look out that you are not misled, for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time is near.’ Do not go after them.
     
  21. Haha
    JW Insider got a reaction from Ann O'Maly in 1914 Problematic? Not at all!   
    [sarcasm] It's too bad there was no pure worship during the time of Jesus and during the lives of the apostles. Otherwise the true Christian faith could have been built upon the foundation of Jesus and the apostles. [/sarcasm]
  22. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Ann O'Maly in 1914 Problematic? Not at all!   
    Christendom likes to take verses out of context. Many people in Christendom take this verse to mean exactly what most of us Witnesses do. Hundreds of commentators, preachers, and commentaries from Christendom also say that Jesus here predicted signs that would give us an indication of what the last days will be like before the great tribulation. 
    Without the context it might sound like Christendom is right. But here's what Christendom was missing.  Note the difference between these two conversations:
    Jesus: These buildings you are so impressed with are all going to be toppled to the ground?
    Disciples: Tell us when that's going to happen, Jesus. What will be a sign we should look for so we know when the END is about to happen?
    Jesus: Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another.
    Now if that is what happened, then Christendom and the Watchtower Society would be correct about their interpretation. But now look at what Jesus really said with more of the chapter's context. The differences will be highlighted in red:
    Jesus: These buildings you are so impressed with are all going to be toppled to the ground?
    Disciples: Tell us when that's going to happen, Jesus. What will be a sign we should look for so we know when the END is about to happen?
    Jesus: LOOK OUT THAT NOBODY MISLEADS YOU. FOR many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ AND WILL MISLEAD MANY. 6 You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. SEE THAT YOU ARE NOT ALARMED, FOR THESE THINGS MUST TAKE PLACE, BUT THE END IS NOT YET. FOR Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. ALL THESE THINGS are a BEGINNING of pangs of distress. . . . Many false prophets will arise and MISLEAD many. . . . But the one who has endured to the END will be saved. . . . THEREFORE, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation . . . begin FLEEING. . . . Keep praying that your FLIGHT may not occur in wintertime nor on the Sabbath day. For THEN there will be great tribulation. . . .  “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ DO NOT BELIEVE IT. For FALSE Christs and FALSE prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to MISLEAD, if possible, even the chosen ones. Look! I HAVE FOREWARNED YOU. Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ DO NOT GO OUT; ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ DO NOT BELIEVE IT. For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence of the Son of man will be. . . . . Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.
     
    Yes, that's a lot of context. But when you look at all of it you see that Jesus isn't just saying "OK. You want signs? Here are your signs." Instead he is saying "OK. You want signs? DON'T BE MISLED!" So if this were any other situation we could probably guess what the problem is: Jesus is saying that it's going to be easy to misled about SIGNS! That really starts to be obvious when we begin noticing phrases like "THE END IS NOT YET." "IT'S THE ONE WHO ENDURES TO THE END." "THEN THE END WILL COME.". Jesus says that these are not signs of the END they are just the BEGINNING!
    Remember that they are asking about a PAROUSIA and a SYNTELEIA, both terms they associate with the FINAL END. And they obviously associate a judgment event on Jerusalem with the FINAL END. In fact Jesus had just done this for them at the end of the previous chapter leading up to the question:
    (Matthew 23:33-38) . . .how will you flee from the judgment of Ge·henʹna? . . . 35 so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zech·a·riʹah . . .  36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem,. . .  38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you.
    So, they were asking about this final end, this final judgment event on Jerusalem, asking WHEN these things will happen, and asking for a warning sign either to save themselves in time, or sound the alarm in time for others. So Jesus keeps repeating  "DON'T BE MISLED," and states very clearly that wars and earthquakes are no reason to "sound the ALARM." (The word for alarmed here is from the term to cry out.) It can only be one of two things: either there is no sign to look for or it is something besides wars, earthquakes and famines. That would be completely logical to us in any other context. It's just that this one has already been explained a certain way, and we don't really WANT to believe that way could be wrong. It's the same way that a lot of folks in Christendom see it too. But true Christians are asked to "pay more than the usual attention" to what Jesus says. It's tempting to believe it in the traditional way we have been taught, because everyone wants to believe that Jesus was talking about their own generation here. Bible commentators going back to the 1700's also tried to confirm that this must refer to their own generation, and how things just couldn't get worse.
    But that was Jesus' point. Wars and famines and earthquakes were not the sign of the end, because when the end came you would know it from that fact that it would be much worse. You might have to survive through persecution and even being killed. But even this wasn't necessarily the end yet.
    To answer the question about a warning sign, Jesus did say that there would be a chance when the tribulation was cut short, for them to flee. When they saw that opportunity it was too late to do anything else. It would be a flight. And they were still being warned about being misled. What would these false Christ's and false prophets be saying that could mislead them? Clearly, they would claim that they knew the signs to declare that the end was close. They could claim that Christ had already returned even though they couldn't see him. They could claim he was just off in the wilderness, or in an inner room. In other words, invisible. But Jesus made it clear that no one could miss a parousia (judgment event) like this one. He said it would be like lightning -- not invisible lightning as some here have claimed -- but like lightning that shines from one horizon to the other horizon.
    Also they are reminded that in spite of their request for a sign, no one was going to know the timing of this parousia. It would be a surprise just like in the days of Noah when suddenly one day it started to rain.
     
  23. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Anna in Governing Body: Does it show loyalty or disloyalty to question the GB?   
    The foundation you gave for your question indicates that you missed the point about special definitions. You have mixed up  interpretations with definitions. What this topic was about was how using unlikely definitions of certain words has contributed to the interpretation. 
    Here's an example. Suppose you tell me the following phrase, which I just picked from one of your posts in this thread:
    This is a sentiment that should be easy to understand, and it's one I agree with whole-heartedly. But let's say that I start using the least likely meanings of the words you used, and it becomes the basis of a completely different interpretation. For example:
    Bruceq refers to the sins of Babylon the Great, which obviously refers to the current problems of the city council in the town of Babylon, New York. And we know that just as in the expression "Greater Boston area" ( Greater Boston - Wikipedia ) this refers to not just the area within the city limits of Babylon, New York, but the other suburban areas that come under the jurisdiction of the "Town of Babylon."
    Bruceq says he wants to share in the mistakes of Jehovah's people. Well, we know that Jehovah's people were the Jews in the Hebrew Scriptures, and so what were those mistakes he wants to share in?
    (1 Corinthians 10:6-11) 6 Now these things became our examples, for us not to be persons desiring injurious things, even as they desired them. 7 Neither become idolaters, as some of them did; just as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink, and they got up to have a good time.” 8 Neither let us practice fornication, as some of them committed fornication, only to fall, twenty-three thousand [of them] in one day. 9 Neither let us put Jehovah to the test, as some of them put [him] to the test, only to perish by the serpents. 10 Neither be murmurers, just as some of them murmured, only to perish by the destroyer. 11 Now these things went on befalling them as examples, and they were written for a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have arrived.
    Even less likely, I could assume that you were referring specifically, to the idea of perishing by serpents, which I highlighted above. So I therefore interpret your phrase to mean the following:
    "But I would rather perish by serpents than join the Town Council of the town of Babylon, New York."
    And I could even defend my special interpretation by pointing out that the "correct" interpretation must always be the least likely because persons in Christendom would have more likely understood it to mean exactly what you intended. Obviously, what most people thought you meant must be wrong, because people in Christendom would agree with it.
    Similarly, we have formed the foundation of the invisible parousia interpretation by accepting the least likely meanings of words and terms like "lightning" "shine" "observableness" "parousia" "synteleia" "sign" "generation" "appointed times of the nations." The most important of these special interpretations were inherited from the "private interpretations" of Nelson Barbour. And they therefore came to us as long-standing traditions that started back around 1875. 
  24. Like
    JW Insider got a reaction from The Librarian in New World Translation: Here is a reaction of a respectable international human rights organization   
    @Kurt Thanks for highlighting this particular site, HRWF. The focus is on religious intolerance, and I must say I was surprised at the hundreds of incidents around the world that are so similar to ours. Must say, though, that currently it's the JWs getting hit the hardest in Russia.
  25. Like
    JW Insider got a reaction from The Librarian in 1914 Problematic? Not at all!   
    [sarcasm] It's too bad there was no pure worship during the time of Jesus and during the lives of the apostles. Otherwise the true Christian faith could have been built upon the foundation of Jesus and the apostles. [/sarcasm]
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Service Confirmation Terms of Use Privacy Policy Guidelines We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.