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JW Insider

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  1. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Evacuated in CAN WE SPOT A LOST SHEEP ?......   
    Not astounded. Just another misreading I'm afraid. Actually I'm expressing disappointment. And believe me, I do not pretend.
    Oh, and those resources? I usually equate this with the properly motivated time and energy those who love Jehovah spend in His service. Which is why I included the Psalm 110 reference.
    Sorry if it hurt. But I do not agree with your assessment.
    You have stated your experience as expressed earlier: "The elder body I served with...".  Your critical and jaded focus on, and descriptions of, the activities of your former colleagues, along with motive assessment (elders and otherwise) are apparent in a number of your postings: (no quotes required). The level of detail. and descriptive nature of these views indicates a period of cultivation.
    Also, your similarity in expression to a whole army of critics orginating from within the ranks of Jehovah's Witnesses, along with your similarly recognisable focus on a distorted view of logistics and administrative processes, confirm my impression that this kind of attitude is the product of a process that somehow does it's work within the congregational arrangement. (A world within a world). However, the manifestation of it appears from the sidelines, usually once a form of estrangement has occured.
    In light of Douglas Walton's interesting perspective on the ad hominem  (Media Argumentation. Dialectic, Persuasion and Rhetoric), I agree with him that it can be legitimate device when a character critique is directly or indirect­ly related to the point being articulated. I mean, surely we can see that when looking at Jesus words expressed so clearly in his denunciation of the Pharisees and scribes in Matthew Chapter 23.
    In this case, I believe that there is no difference in my assessment or method of expressing it than that demonstrated by Paul in his warning to the Ephesians in Acts 20:30.
    And to ensure that this posting remains firmly connected with the original posting shared by @Queen Esther, I believe that the joyful and zealous proclamation of the kingdom good news is one clear indicator of a spiritually healthy heart. Field service reports are just one of the tools available to keep those charged before Jehovah with shepherding His sheep alert to their spiritual health and safety. Her excellent poetic reminder is much appreciated.
  2. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to PeterR in CAN WE SPOT A LOST SHEEP ?......   
    There you go. To you it seems that if it isn't measurable it doesn't happen. If reporting hours is all you've ever known then I can see why you might not be able to get past that.
    Philip was known as "the evangelizer". Do you think for a moment it was because he accepted it as a title for doing in excess of x number of hours preaching per month? Or do you think that people simply knew him as a man who naturally preached the Gospel at every opportunity.
    The latter portion of Deut 6:7 is often tied to talking about your love for Jehovah to your kids. And given the opening that would obviously be true. But when I read it the passage says 1) inculcate your love for God in your children and 2) speak about them always - to anyone, always (including incidentally yourself in meditation).
    Mal 3:16 talks of those who would naturally talk about spiritual things and share faith as part of any conversation.
    I actually find it a little shocking that people would so clearly reveal that they don't feel any of this would be noticed by others unless a number of "service hours" was turned in every month.
     
    Well yeah. I hadn't even considered that as part of this conversation. But if it even puts a some people under pressure some of the time, such that it could tempt them into any form of dishonesty, then there's another reason why Jesus might have warned against it.
    I can perfectly see the benefit of setting personal goals. That's not what's being discussed here. They can remain personal and there is no conflict with any scriptural injunction.
     
    I'm sorry but I don't buy that. I do have some specific experience into how this process works. Even before everything went electronic, planning for literature production was always done through the movement of literature inventory - and advance requests made for campaigns - at a congregation level. Collecting a report of member's individual hours of service performed in the previous month has no value in this regard.
     
    So what would we lose that would apply from that verse? We couldn't boast about total number of hours in any given country. Does anyone actually bring that out when reviewing the annual report anyway? We just wouldn't be able to boast about 1 billion hours (or whatever it is) globally.
    But isn't the real source of encouragement 1) overall growth and 2) personal experiences. Growth is pretty well measured by baptisms (minus deaths and disfellowshippings). This would be unaffected. The overall number of JWs in any given country and worldwide would still be available. I can see an argument for keeping a tally of studies too. That's encouraging. But that's not what we're talking about here which is individuals reporting how much time they spent publicly representing the organization.
     
    Well the fulfillment of the Psalm and the verse in Matthew will be evident regardless. As far as the James scripture I don't see the relevance unless you're somehow reading into it that faith and works would only be evident through numbers.
     
  3. Like
    JW Insider got a reaction from ComfortMyPeople in NOAH! – The END OF THE WORLD – IS NOT COMING! WHAT IS RAIN?   
    That idea in some commentaries could be very valid. But, as you have already said, a commentary is not the same as a translation -- at least it shouldn't be.
    There is a tendency in commentaries to conflate their interpretations of ALL the scriptures on a topic into a single coherent idea, in spite of the fact that Jesus may have used this illustration or circumstance to highlight a different idea.
    I think it gets back to the idea of the "heart" wanting to think that Noah must have warned everyone, so we want to understood "preacher of righteousness" to mean Noah gave everyone a warning. And he very well might have, but we are speculating if we decide that our favorite definition of "preacher" must fit this particular situation.
    Whether Noah gave a warning or not, Jesus' point seems more likely to highlight the fact that they acted as if they had had no warning -- as if there had not been a warning. So it's not a key point of the verse to point out that a warning must have taken place. It changes the sense of the verse and the context to try to add this point. Doesn't mean that there is no truth to the idea of a warning in another context.
    I think it's the same way in which many people think that Jesus' purpose (in Matthew 24) was to let the disciples know that there would be advance warning signs. This is what many commentaries WANT the whole chapter to be saying. There are one or two places that sound like something could be taken as a warning, and about 10 places where Jesus sounds like he was trying to say it would come as a thief, suddenly, without warning. It doesn't seem fair that it would be without warning at least to the faithful or at least to the angels, so we overthrow 10 clear verses in favor of one or two that could partially suggest otherwise.
    I think that some have looked at this idea and think I'm trying to say that we should not be giving a warning about the end of this system. This is not the point at all. We can always warn people about how deep we must be into the time of the end. The only thing we should NOT be doing is saying "The Time is at Hand!" That's the way in which Matthew 24 (Mark 13, Luke 21) would be misinterpreted, and why Jesus started out with a warning about how easy it would be to get misled.
    English Standard Version - Luke 21:8
    And he said, “See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he!’ and, ‘The time is at hand!’ Do not go after them."
  4. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Bible Speaks in Can I Tell You a "Secret?" We Must "Open Our Hearts and Minds and Listen to This Prophecy!" – ?????   
    Can I Tell You a "Secret?" We Must "Open Our Hearts and Minds and Listen to This Prophecy!"
    ?????????
    "I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring."—Gen. 3:15.
    ??????????
    The Blessings of the Kingdom
    ?????
    The Messianic Kingdom will destroy God’s enemies and all the families of the earth will be blessed.
    ???????
    “God’s Wisdom in a Sacred Secret”
    “The glory of God is the keeping of a matter secret.” (Proverbs 25:2) Yes, as Sovereign Ruler and Creator, Jehovah rightfully keeps some things secret from mankind until it is his due time to reveal them.
    ???????
    When Adam and Eve sinned, it may have appeared that Jehovah’s purpose to have an earthly paradise inhabited by perfect humans had been thwarted. But God immediately addressed the problem. He said: “I shall put enmity between you [the serpent] and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”—Genesis 3:15.
    ???????
    During his ministry, Jesus identified the serpent of Genesis 3:15 as Satan and the serpent’s seed as Satan’s followers. (Matthew 23:33; John 8:44) Later, it was revealed how all of these would be crushed forever. (Revelation 20:1-3,10, 15) And the woman was identified as “the Jerusalem above,” Jehovah’s heavenly, wifelike organization of spirit creatures.*—Galatians 4:26; Revelation 12:1-6.
    ???????
    God’s Wisdom and the Sacred Secret
    ???????
    The sacred secret is an astonishing display of “the greatly diversified wisdom of God.” (Ephesians 3:8-10) What wisdom Jehovah displayed in formulating this secret, then in revealing it so gradually! He wisely took into consideration the limitations of humans, allowing them to manifest their true heart condition.—Psalm 103:14.
    ???????
    The apostle Paul wrote: “The sacred secret that was hidden from the past systems of things and from the past generations . . . has been made manifest to his holy ones.” (Colossians 1:26) 
    What a privilege all of us have! Jehovah has “made known to us the sacred secret of his will.” (Ephesians 1:9) Let us share this marvelous secret with others, helping them likewise to peer into the unfathomable wisdom of Jehovah God!
    ???????
    https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102002043?q=gen+3%3A15&p=par

  5. Like
    JW Insider got a reaction from Evacuated in CAN WE SPOT A LOST SHEEP ?......   
    Makes sense. I was able to edit it out.
  6. Like
    JW Insider got a reaction from BroRando in The Scripture that Trinitarians Falsified!   
    Which could just as likely have been supposed by working backwards from the sentiment found in John and Colossians, etc.
    The wording in John 1 might also allude to some Jewish "Wisdom" poetry we no longer have access to. Or even an outgrowth of the poetry that already exists, such as in the way Jeremiah appears to allude to Genesis 1:1 poetically:
    Jeremiah 10:12-16New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    12 It is He who made the earth by His power, Who established the world by His wisdom; And by His understanding He has stretched out the heavens. 13 When He utters His voice, there is a tumult of waters in the heavens, And He causes the clouds to ascend from the end of the earth;
    (Proverbs 3:19, 20) 19 Jehovah founded the earth in wisdom. He solidly established the heavens in discernment. 20 By his knowledge the watery deeps were split apart And the cloudy skies dripped with dew.
    (Proverbs 8:22-31) 22 Jehovah produced me [Wisdom] as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From ancient times I was installed, From the start, from times earlier than the earth. 24 When there were no deep waters, I was brought forth, When there were no springs overflowing with water. 25 Before the mountains were set in place, Before the hills, I was brought forth, 26 When he had not yet made the earth and its fields Or the first clods of earth’s soil. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there; When he marked out the horizon on the surface of the waters, 28 When he established the clouds above, When he founded the fountains of the deep, 29 When he set a decree for the sea That its waters should not pass beyond his order, When he established the foundations of the earth, 30 Then I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time; 31 I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men.
    Then again, the multiple references to a personified wisdom in these allusions to Genesis 1:1 might be evidence of a one-time reference to a Logos/Word/Wisdom. But the fact that it could also be referenced without any such reference may be evidence that what we have is exactly what was originally written:
    (Isaiah 45:18) . . .For this is what Jehovah says, The Creator of the heavens, the true God, The One who formed the earth, its Maker who firmly established it, Who did not create it simply for nothing, but formed it to be inhabited: “I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.
  7. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from PeterR in CAN WE SPOT A LOST SHEEP ?......   
    I couldn't know what motivations  @PeterR or you or anyone else might have. But I can say that what I said is (to me) merely a truism about legalism, and has nothing to do with taking it easy as you state. Also, I don't recommend that people stop reporting the types of service that help others prepare useful and appropriate publications, convention material, encouragement from circuit overseers, talks about local needs, etc. If you think you'll need 100 magazines next month in service, you should order 100 magazines; if you think you will need 10, order 10. Even in the days when we paid directly in advance for all the publications, I'd still see some Witnesses with rooms stacked with unused magazines and books. The specific need for printed material is no longer a big factor, as we are encouraged to make more use of electronic formats. (In some countries, more than others.)
    Obviously, we could also take it too far and forbid the reporting of our service to others, too, but this could end up being just another form of legalism. Our motivation for reporting our time and experiences might be purely meant as an encouragement for others who have trouble finding the time, or our motivation for reporting could be out of the pure joy of reporting on experiences in our ministry that make our sacrifice of time worthwhile. (Remember the joy that Jesus expressed when the 70 evangelizers returned to tell about what kinds of experiences they had just had. Giving a good report can be a matter of encouragement or just a matter of the mouth speaking out of the "abundance of the heart" -- not just preaching, but telling fellow Christians about our experiences in preaching.)
    However, the methods by which a "placement" or even a "return visit" can be counted have now made some of these reports mean less because people would be comparing Apple iPads to oranges. The differences in what some elders or family heads might count as a "Bible Study" might also be quite different from what the average pioneer will count. TTH is right that these numbers are not used in such a way that each congregation member knows who is more active than others, except by actual observation while working with others in the ministry, and by a couple of different level pioneer titles. Neither are they used at levels higher than a circuit overseer, in any form other than the aggregate. Other forms of "full-time" service might come with little or no field service, although there is overlap in the use of the "title." My brother, for example, was on a project at Bethel where Brother Wisegarver asked him if he could work 6 days a week for at least 4 months, and skip all his meetings except Sunday. I know several elders whose work on regional building committees kept them from almost anything else for several months at a time, and some have preferred it that way.
    My point is that the Law included measurements and even certain threshold requirements to meet the Law correctly. We SHOULD be working purely from proper motivation, but this will not be true of everyone. This is why the Law was necessary as a tutor. But our ministry that is pure from the standpoint of 'our God and Father' MUST include a lot of ministry that is not currently counted as "sacred" service, even if Jesus counts it as "sacred" service. (Looking after orphans and widows, for example.) I do think that if proper motivation is what is explained and encouraged at all meetings, then most of us would rebalance our ministries toward the other forms of service that Jesus counts as sacred. But we would also be looking for more opportunities to buy out more effective time in all our ministries, making time count rather than looking for ways to count time.
    My comments about the legalism behind the reports and titles might have sounded discouraging, but it's not so that anyone would do less, or lose their motivation. It's so that whatever we do is a JOY because of the motivation. The points about legalism include the confusion that most immature Christians have about being rewarded for "works." These legalistic ideas are really more obvious when we look at the history of the ways quotas and counting time and placements has worked since Rutherford's time. A quick reading of old Bulletins, Informants, Messengers, Kingdom Ministrys, Convention reports, etc., will make it clear what I mean by legalism in the sense that the apostle Paul spoke out so strongly against. I won't try to prove it here.
    But I would agree that we have also moved toward a more sensible and balanced view of time to remove the common "burdensome" nature of counting time and placements.
  8. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to b4ucuhear in CAN WE SPOT A LOST SHEEP ?......   
    Fact: Christians have been tasked with preaching the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations before the end comes...That being the case, it makes sense to me that records of both time and resources would need to be kept in order to determine where to allocate said time and resources to where they are needed most. If things didn't take place in a highly organized way ("decently and by arrangement") and everyone kept their figures to themselves as to where, how and how much effort was needed, just doing what THEY felt needed to be done, it would be an anarchy of individual perceptions. After all, who wouldn't want to spend the rest of their lives preaching/living near a beach in Hawaii? (or substitute your favourite destination here). It seems clear to me that extensive records are not just desirable, but necessary. Even corporations recognize that. HOWEVER...as has been discussed, another fact...
    Fact: If the motivation for our ministry is to be noticed by man rather than love for neighbour or God then there is something wrong. Can recording hours and handing them in contribute to a mindset of just putting in hours; can it contribute to wanting to be noticed for your "works" before men? I believe that is a possibility, but not a given. It would be unfair to paint with such a wide and tainted brush. Still, and especially lately I have seen pioneers fudge their reports so as to "get their time in." And that fact doesn't go without notice from those who struggle/extend themselves to be out. These "phantom" pioneers are described as "members of the 'Secret Service'" - since only God knows how they get their time in without actually doing anything. (OK, I'm not actually encouraging that type of description or being critical or judgmental of what others do), but I know for a fact that it happens. 
    So while I see and recognize that filling in reports and counting time is not a specific requirement spelled out in God's Word, I can see and appreciate why it can be useful in facilitating the preaching work we are endeavoring to do. It just should be with the right motive. Which is essentially what everyone agrees with anyway here as far as I can tell.
     
  9. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to b4ucuhear in NOAH! – The END OF THE WORLD – IS NOT COMING! WHAT IS RAIN?   
    I can't say I disagree with other posts pointing out that the actual words say "knew not," "did not know..." It's also a fair point to be made that if the Bible doesn't actually say something, our translations shouldn't take liberties to make it appear as something different. As lauded as our NWT is for it's accuracy in some circles, there is no denying that at times liberties have been taken. Especially in our latest revision. Still I like it and use it (along with others). The point I was making in quoting these other commentators is that it would appear that using the same scriptures as a basis, they came to much the same conclusion in their observations as indicated in the NWT. That people living at Noah's time must have known something was up and were not completely ignorant of what was to happen, but they took no note (they chose to "know not".). According to (some) Bible commentators, they "knew not" in the sense that they didn't want to know. I can't say I'd be dogmatic that Noah's being a preacher of righteousness included warning people of an imminent flood. But warning people in order for them to make a change/turnaround does seems consistent with the way Jehovah often does things - giving even wicked ones an opportunity to make a choice for live or death. So to me as posted above, it does seem "most likely" that Noah as "preacher of righteousness" included some kind of warning.
  10. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to TrueTomHarley in LIVE BLOG: Jehovah's Witnesses Appeal Russian Supreme Court Ruling   
    America is bombing more countries than is he.
    Look, he's not my pal, but we are wrong if we demonize anyone personally - it's just buying into Western media. Who is there knowing whether with him it will one day be: "The man who formerly persecuted us is not declaring the good news about the faith that he formerly devastated."
    No, I don't think it likely, either. But neither was it with Paul. Why poison the well?
    And you feel the same way, most likely. It's just that with such a blatant injustice, it is hard not to look for a human villain. That is easy to understand.
    It's good that you are here, putting in the loyal comments that you do.
  11. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Arauna in LIVE BLOG: Jehovah's Witnesses Appeal Russian Supreme Court Ruling   
    Report post     My observations of reality the way reality REALLY IS may be callous
    What is reality?   Each person experiences reality in a different way except when we collectively accept the reality of Jehovah and the reality of his restoration project of the earth (as written in the bible) and the values of good and bad it instills in us. We hence can say : if we follow the truth of the bible we are focusing on the true reality.  All other stuff is really going to become garbage in future although these ugly, painful things are now a part of our collective reality.
    My definition of true faith is based on Hebrew 11:1 : it is the search for reality (evidence) and how this reality will affect your view on all life on earth, human and animal.
    Is this not also the definition of science?  The search for reality and how this will affect your view of all other life?   Take for example the theory of evolution - to some this is reality..... even though the "evidence" is not there!  And how did this theory affect their view of other life?  Well Nazi Germany is a good example.  The idea of survival of the fittest gave way to "engineering of the german nation" and discarding disabled or other nations (not seen as worthy) to be exterminated....
    While we may accept the reality of the Kingdom and its future hope we may be at odds with the teachings of the Bible.  Our reality can be affected by being too egotistical, too brazen, too disruptive, too critical, too unloving.  How do we use our power?  All of us have power over each other and we can cooperate or be a dissonant sound.
    If a child does not listen to his parents he is actually using the power he has over them to make their lives a misery.  Similarly, it is easy to put the blame elsewhere and criticize the brothers when the finger is pointing back at us.  How humble are you to try to always cooperate and work together - be a force for good.   
    Use your powers for building others up - not being the disruptive sound in the orchestra.  One can still exercise your talents and be an individual without stepping onto the toes of everyone else.  Be emotionally sensitive.  Work hard - not just on the  IQ but more so - on the Emotional IQ. 
    There are many brothers and sisters with exceptional talents but they keep these in check (in their place) to put Jehovah first.
     
  12. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Arauna in LIVE BLOG: Jehovah's Witnesses Appeal Russian Supreme Court Ruling   
    Agreed, Jehovah is shaking the nations by preaching work (not literally shaken). ...And this preaching work is upsetting the Russian government and the Mighty Orthodox church.....because we are effective!
    However, I think Jehovah is allowing satan to literally shake the nations due to the activities of man (wars, poverty etc.) which is causing stress in societies in many parts of the world. We are observing an influx of people to other areas and these have not had opportunity to get a good witness because they live in areas where the work has been banned or restricted.
     
  13. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Evacuated in LIVE BLOG: Jehovah's Witnesses Appeal Russian Supreme Court Ruling   
    I agree with your views expressed very well here. Just to add that whilst indeed the movement of people is due to the "shaking" of this world system, Jehovah's "shaking" of the nations (Hag.2:7) is by means of the preaching that we do. Personal focus and involvement in that activity as much as we can at this time will serve greatly in our endeavour to keep ourselves in Jehovah's love. 
  14. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Arauna in LIVE BLOG: Jehovah's Witnesses Appeal Russian Supreme Court Ruling   
    I DID NOT EXPECT IT TO GO OUR WAY!  Here are my reasons:
    I have been watching Russia for more than 12 years and saw its sincere "human rights lawyers and reporters" mysteriously killed on the streets with no-one being brought to justice.  In the past I have called it a thugocracy! They killed dissidents in other countries too - think of the polonium-210  killing in London which grabbed some headlines! (please watch the video link I put in my previous comment about Russia.)
    Putin has made the Russian Orthodox religion his bedfellow in creating a new Russian-religious Nationalism.  Russian pride is at an all-time high and this is their food at present which unites them against all else /anything different. Many people are joining the orthodox church because Putin is the equivalent to a pop-star god and he seen as a strong leader.  He is dangerous, shrewd and a killer!  No-one stands in his way - totalitarian.... and his bedfellow church is the same! 
    By shrewd selling of weapons and assistance his influence is increasing in the world  (especially the middle east). The Russians love him for it.
    Satan is blinding the eyes of the world leaders.  Putin is also keeping the lid on the 27 million Muslims in his country by brutal oppression. Searches and Indiscriminate jailing of these people have made them live in fear of the government.... 
    Like his cold war predecessors - Putin and the Russian government is putting on a façade - allowing this high supreme court case, just to make this ban on JWs legal in the eyes of the people - justice has been through the process..... the quality of the process does not matter.  There was never an intention to listen to arguments in a fair /just way..... It was a set decision beforehand and the entire country is in a trance propagated by the Russian propaganda machine. All "feel" the same in their nationalism.   (Remember the Nazi machine of pride and nationalism?  A modern version of it...no right and wrong standards with injustices perpetrated and victims with no rights.)
    It is therefore not a surprise that Russia is the first country to stand in the "holy place" - I expect more and more to join this stance against Jehovah's defenseless people.   We do believe that it is the time of the end, don't we?  Then expect more to come. 
    We will suffer - but Jehovah will cut it off at the right time.  We will be dragged before governors and give our witness.  And our enemies will be deriding us - where is your god now?  Why does he not save you?  
    The propaganda of Satan (expressions of demons) is everywhere - going out to divide the earth as never before ! to get them ready for Armageddon. Rev 16:14-16.  Religious hate (religions hating each other and weapons training in religious nationalism is something new), hard-core racial hatred, and political party hatred (militant far-left and militant far-right) are getting people worked up for violence and fierceness to perpetrate unthinkable things against their fellow man in future. (brother killing brother).
    In the world there is not a place where there is not one or other form of hatred being propagated.  The values of right and wrong have disappeared.  Most Christians nations (especially Europe) are Christians at face value only because philosophies of humanist nature have taken its place....All religions are equal they say.... there is no right and wrong....  
    In this moral confusion the pressure pot is building - and the longer it builds- the bigger the explosion.  Whether we will see another world war - I do not know.  Whether we will see an ISIS-like organization take over in Europe and Canada - I do not know.   All I can see is signs of a building hatred amongst people which is directly from Satan.
    Satan wants to control the world completely and stamp out Jehovah's worship.  He is using imperialistic false religion and political systems to do this.  In previous generations there were decent people who held back this overwhelming control of satan but now there are very little wise people left with a sincere love for god.  In many countries there is an inordinate surge in Spiritism  - practiced on a daily basis with druids and witch doctors....  I saw this while living in Africa and England and have been watching the trends.
    Jehovah is now allowing the nations to be shaken (refugees moving everywhere) so that we can bring them the message and they receive an opportunity to choose... so keep busy while we have freedom to do so.
    I see signs of Jehovah's Witness enemies using Facebook and false news to perpetuate and spread vile lies about us and build a hatred against us.... Who is behind this?  Satan of course.  
    So my brothers....and sisters. Keep yourself in Jehovah's love..... do not stray and keep the eyes simple and focussed.  Do not collect material things or influence for yourself ..... it is not the time to contemplate these things... because they can be taken away from you in one minute....
    Jesus did not say without reason it will be the worst tribulation ever! 
     
     
  15. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Philippe in LIVE BLOG: Jehovah's Witnesses Appeal Russian Supreme Court Ruling   
    Hello my beloved brothers and sisters. I have just received from one of my contacts the minutes of the first hearing. Good it is in Russian, but you can use a translator (Google for example)
    https://jw-russia.org/pages/17071316-192.html
    It is the official website of our Brothers and Sisters of Russia.
    Fraternally. Your Brother in Faith Philippe
  16. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to The Librarian in LIVE BLOG: Jehovah's Witnesses Appeal Russian Supreme Court Ruling   
    On Monday, July 17, 2017, a three-judge panel will consider the appeal of the Russian Supreme Court’s April 20 decision against Jehovah’s Witnesses. Further updates about the hearing will be provided using this new breaking news feature. Please pray for our brothers and sisters in Russia. Regardless of the outcome, we are confident that Jehovah has all matters in hand and the nations will know that he is Jehovah.–Ezekiel 38:23...

    @bruceq made the following updates:  (he is now posting new comments below as they happen)
    14:54Novakov shows the sequence of video frames trial clearly show that extremist publications of Jehovah's Witnesses had been planted. He brings to the court and other egregious evidence of falsification of evidence against Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia. All these fraudulent cases are at the heart of the matter. 14:45It gives explanations to the court representative Nowak. And his first thought is that the circumstances relied upon by the Court related to administrative offenses, have no force prejudicial to the case.   14:35As an example of failure to prove the circumstances specified in the court decision, the ax quotes from the decision that the Administrative Center participated in the financing of MPO, which are recognized as extremist. This fact is to prove if the extremist nature of the Administrative Center. However, the Ministry of Justice did not provide the court (as suggested by Ax, intentionally!) Relevant contracts donations and decisions of the Administrative Center for a donation, from which it follows that the donation of funds to these organizations was carried out, first of all, a few years before the recognition of their extremist and, the second is to clearly defined objectives: the construction of buildings of worship, to the victims of natural disasters, utility payments and perform other obligations to the state. All of these contracts and decisions were transferred to the Ministry of Justice Administrative Center during the inspection, previous to applying to the court of Justice.   The third thesis presentation Toporova is that the judgment be set aside due to lack of evidence of the circumstances established by the trial court.   14:24The above-mentioned argument supports the second point Topo: the court's decision is subject to cancellation due to incorrect application of substantive law. Trying to justify the recognition of the structural units of MPO administrative defendant, for whose actions he must answer, the court made a wrong application of substantive law, to apply the law, not to be applied, namely, the laws "On Political Parties", "On Public Associations". The court gave an incorrect interpretation of the law "On Freedom of Conscience and Religious Associations" and "On Countering Extremist Activity" CAS Russian Federation, including without regard to the legal positions contained in the decisions of the Constitutional Court of the Russian Federation, the Plenum of the RF Armed Forces and the Presidium of the Russian Supreme Court.   14:20Conclusions The Court of First Instance contradict the entire long-term established jurisprudence of cases against local religious organizations, said Ax. As evidence, he cites the definition that the Russian Supreme Court stated in its decision of December 8, 2009: "Administrative Center of Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia and the local religious organization of Jehovah's Witnesses" Taganrog "is an autonomous organization, which is also confirmed by the adoption of the cassation instance court evidence, including a diagram of the structure of Jehovah's Witnesses" Taganrog ". The question of the rights and duties of the Administrative Center of the Regional Court in considering the above statement the prosecutor of the Rostov region is not resolved, the decision of the Rostov Regional Court on September 11, 2009 local religious organization of Jehovah's Witnesses "Taganrog" was recognized as extremist and eliminated. " In this case, this court ruling is prejudicial to the present case, as it was handed down by the Supreme Court of the Russian Federation in respect of the administrative defendant. It establishes the fact that the liquidation of the local religious organization, part of the structure of the Administrative Center shall not affect the rights and obligations of the latter, since this local religious associations and the Administrative Center are independent organizations. The Court of First Instance ignored the evidence that led to the incorrect use of their sub   13:56Turn to give an explanation becomes representative Toporov. The first thesis of his speech focused on Article 310 of the CAS Code, under which "the decision of the trial court shall be subject to unconditional cancellation in case the court decides on the rights and obligations of persons not involved in the administrative case."14:00Court decision eliminated the religious organization "Jehovah's Witnesses Administrative Center in Russia" and included in its structure of local religious organizations. All these local religious organizations are clearly listed in the decision of the court of first instance, and that the transfer takes half of the text of all decisions. However, to participate in the court of the 395 organizations involved were not.   13:55On the other hand, due to the decision of the court themselves believers are subjected to a substantial violation of their rights. Little wife gives various facts to prove it. For example, the fact of refusal believers to replace military service with alternative civilian service on the basis of a court decision. Concluding his speech, little wife attached to the case copies of the minutes and agendas of the draft commissions from the recruiting office.   "And what threat to state or public are we talking about if even the President himself awarded JWs on May 31 in Kremlin?" Check and CHECKMATE   13:52"But, dear court, let's look at the facts and see someone who threatens someone who hurts, - he says Zhenkov.- it was found that over the 26 years of the official activities of Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia has not suffered any damage to the state in the first instance court nor morality in society. No acts of vandalism on the part of Jehovah's Witnesses, there is no violence. So that there is violence, not even acts of protest! It turns out that the threat of a court wrote in its decision, is imaginary, far-fetched. If it was real, then for 26 years of official existence in Russia and 100 years of unofficial, it would be true. But the court's decision does not contain any evidence of harm from their activities. What kind of threat to society and the state can be a question if recently as May 31, 2017, Russian President Vladimir Putin in the Kremlin presents the Order of "Parental Glory" family of Jehovah's Witnesses? "   13:50Fourth thesis Zhenkova - the disparity of the court decision. Little wife quotes from the court's decision: "Contrary to the arguments of opposition organizations such interference is proportionate and necessary ... as it ensures the removal of rights violations, freedoms and legitimate interests of an indefinite number of persons, the real threat of harm to the individual, to public health, public order, public security, public and the state. "   13:45Little wife draws attention to the fact that the Administrative Center has been denied participation in court cases on the recognition of printed materials as extremist. In some cases, the believers do not even know, and what did this or that book as extremist because the court held that Jehovah's Witnesses were innocent. The same position has consistently held and the Supreme Court of Russia, with the result that the Administrative Center had no right to participate in, nor cause his arguments to the court or to appeal against the court decision. And now the court of first instance for some reason, to apply the opposite approach. Now, the Court considers that on the basis of these decisions Administrative Center can be eliminated. "Dear Court - little wife says - you have the opportunity to correct this injustice. The Supreme Court it is important to be consistent, he's a model for all Russian courts. "   13:30Little wife quotes from the Ministry of Justice of the document: "The recognition of information materials confessional Jehovah's Witnesses extremist ... confirms ... the fact of the presence in them prohibitively offensive from the point of view of the Russian Federation methods conviction expression of the truth of their religious beliefs, and in this case not even the truth of beliefs, and in the interpretation of the precepts contained in the Bible. " This characteristic does not correspond to reality. Little wife draws attention to the fact that the vast majority of Jehovah's Witnesses publications "extremist" were found eight years ago. And at that time there was still no decision number 11 of the Plenum of the Supreme Court, which were explained that the courts should be understood as hate speech or hate. Until 2011, some courts have mistakenly believed that if Jehovah's Witnesses religion is called in the literature the only true, it's a sign of incitement to hatred, as an insult to other religions. And if in the literature of Jehovah's Witnesses say that the Trinity - this is not a biblical doctrine, that such an interpretation of the Bible even more, according to some judges, aroused hatred. But that was before 2011, until the Supreme Court did not explain that the criticism of religious associations, religious beliefs, religious practices should not be regarded as an act aimed at inciting hatred or enmity. It took years to get all finally realized that conside   13:20The third thesis Zhenkova: Court of First Instance incorrectly defined the circumstances relevant for administrative affairs. Little wife lists a number of examples.   13:15Zhenkova second thesis is that the findings of the trial court is not appropriate in the circumstances of the administrative case. For example, in the court decision states: "As follows from the case for the past seven years annually required by law to establish the facts of extremist activities of the Organization ..." However, the court found the exact opposite. Lawyer little wife: "Administrative plaintiff in the court acknowledged that the facts have not been established in the actions directly Administrative Center of extremist activities, and the court says - installed."   13:10Little wife gives an example. He says that in the trial we found that in the Crimea of Jehovah's Witnesses for decades peacefully exercising their religious activities. Once on the territory of Russia and performing Russian law, Jehovah's Witnesses in Crimea asked Russian Ministry of Justice to register their 22 local religious organizations. And the Ministry of Justice, recognizing the legitimacy of their existence and the validity of their beliefs, in 2015, to register them. Thus, the state has recognized that on the peninsula of Crimea is possible to believe in Jehovah God, and why religion called Jehovah's Witnesses have the right to legally exist and operate. And what's next? Less than two years later without establishing their actions signs of extremism, but on the orders of the General Prosecutor's Office, the same Ministry of Justice, which is to register them, appealed to the court to recognize their extremist organizations, and to take away from them all their possessions. And the Supreme Court even without the participation of these entities announced their extremist and liquidated, and allow them to take away all the property. "In this regard, there are questions both legal and universal - says little wife: - What a believer in the Crimea is the punishment? For what specific actions? Answers to these questions in the judgment no. But does such a decision may be legal? "   13:08From the transcript of the hearing shows that the trial court asked plaintiff clear legal issues that are important for the proper settlement of the case. The Court received answers that extremism - it is specific actions listed in the law, and that the management center and more than 300 local religious organizations such actions did not commit.But the judgment and the court ruled for some reason just the opposite - to recognize all 396 extremist organizations and to eliminate them. "How is it that a respected court? - exclaims Zhenkov.- Would you like the college, this should not cause problems? If there is no extremist activities, then for that to recognize the extremist ?!   13:04Little wife, "If the Administrative Center did not commit extremist acts, we have a representative of the Ministry of Justice to sort things out in court and whether each of the 395 local religious organization of Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia committed extremist actions? The answer is the Ministry of Justice was limited to the fact that only in respect of 10 of them are court decisions, and in the other there is no such data. A natural question: if the court has not been established that the Administrative Center of Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia and at least 385 local religious organizations, committed any extremist actions, why the court found them extremist and liquidated? ". 12:58After finishing the report, the court of the defendant offers to give his explanation. The first lawyer speaks little wife. Zhenkova first thesis is that the court decision does not have evidence of extremist activity of the Administrative Center. Little wife quotes from the protocol of the trial court. The court: "What is confirmed that the organization carried out extremist activity?". Ministry of Justice: "A religious organization has not taken any effective measures to curb this activity ...". The Court also figured in the administrative claimant, whether the adoption of insufficient measures may, or even inaction be a sign of extremism? The Ministry of Justice with reference to the law had to admit - not extremism can only be deliberate actions.   12:15The court announces a break in the meeting on a motion.12:25After returning from the deliberation room, the court refuses to satisfy all the stated applications.12:30Manohina judge begins its essence.12:45Having set out the arguments of the claim, the position of the defendant, the court tells the essence of the decision rendered April 20, 2017.12:51The Court proceeds to paraphrase the appeal filed on behalf of a religious organization.   12:07Since there are no more requests, the Court invited the representative of the Ministry of Justice to express their opinion. The representative of the Ministry of Justice objected to the adjournment proceedings against the video, against the questioning of witnesses - victims of political repression citizens. In addition, the Ministry of Justice against fraud questioning witnesses against the taking of evidence from the courts. The representative of the Ministry of Justice believes that the petition aimed at the revision entered into force court decisions that, in his opinion, it is inadmissible. Video from the fact of violation of citizens' rights representative of the Ministry of Justice considers neotnosimym proof.   12:03Participation by linguists is necessary because the accusations of extremism imposed on Jehovah's Witnesses - are not taken from real life or set of offenses, but only vyuzheny of their liturgical texts. text analysis takes just linguists.12:04Little wife says another application - for the admission of new evidence. We are talking about events that took place after the decision of 20 April, - acts of vandalism and other offenses, provoked by the decision. These events appear in a video, and the little wife petitions for their viewing in the courtroom.   11:59Not allowed previous petitions, the court offers Zhenkovu lawyer read out his application.12:00Little wife seeks interrogation experts (theologians, linguists). The court of first instance court wrongly denied this. Meanwhile, experts explain the need for a legitimate and reasonable solutions. Thus, in the field of religious studies expert could clarify specific concepts of Christianity, which are used in the charter of a religious organization, as well as how the stated goals and objectives of the Jehovah's Witnesses implemented them in practice. Importantly, the theologian could clarify whether the inherent belief in the truth of their religion only to Jehovah's Witnesses, or is it a characteristic of any religion.   11:55Continuing to talk about the need for the taking of evidence, counsel recalls that under the new clause in the law on combating extremist activity the Bible and quotes from it can not be recognized as extremist materials. Call for evidence, the court can make sure that the literature of Jehovah's Witnesses is always based on the Bible, it encourages people to love God and to love one's neighbor, and strengthens faith in the Bible. This all means that the Jehovah's Witnesses literature recognized as "extremist" by mistake and in any case can not serve as a basis for the prohibition of an entire religion, in which hundreds of thousands of adherents in Russia.   11:50Lawyer Omelchenko reminded that the law requires the court to examine all the evidence directly. For example, given the seriousness of the case for freedom of religion throughout the territory of the Russian Federation, the Supreme Court should immediately investigate on what grounds was a Jehovah's Witness literature as extremist, and whether these are sufficient grounds to meet the requirements of the Ministry of Justice of Russia. Court could ensure that the literature of Jehovah's Witnesses are no signs of incitement to hatred or enmity in the form in which they identified the Plenum of the Supreme Court in its judgment of 28 June 2011. Another has not set any court! (Under the excitation of hatred and enmity, according to the Plenum, implied statements justifying the genocide, repression, deportations, the use of violence against members of any nation, race or religion. As the Plenum, even criticism of religious beliefs or religious practices should not be seen as extremism.)   11:45The lawyer says Omelchenko extensive petition for the recovery of evidence the courts relied upon by the Ministry of Justice in an attempt to prove the "extremism" Jehovah's Witnesses. A similar petition was stated in the trial court, but the court denied his satisfaction. Therefore, the defendant requests that the Court of Appeal nevertheless reclaim materials from the ships are Jehovah's Witnesses, who were recognized as "extremist". After all, court decisions on their own are not prejudicial to the case, such as the Court of First Instance found, in view of the fact that the Administrative Center has not participated in the review.   11:31Novakov representative said the request for the examination of witnesses planted of extremist literature and other fraud, organized or used by law enforcement agencies, according to the cases relied upon by the Ministry of Justice in its lawsuit. Witnesses were in the courtroom and are willing to testify.11:40Novakov said that four witnesses were in the courtroom. The Court, without prejudging definitions of file petitions and asks, is there any other application. Novakov seeks to call in the courtroom another 53 witnesses fraud.   11:28The lawyer Lew continues to apply for the examination of witnesses Pavla Bezhenarya and Anatoliya Yasinskogo. They are recognized as victims of political repression as Jehovah's Witnesses. They know that the prohibition of religious organizations is harsh and unfounded persecution of believers of the religion. Thousands of Jehovah's Witnesses in April 1951 lost their property and were sent in cattle cars from the western regions of the USSR into permanent exile in Siberia, and later they were subjected to searches, confiscation of religious literature, discrimination and imprisonment because live by the Bible's commandments. Bejenaru, for example, known information about that in 1951 he and his family were expelled from Moldova to Tomsk region. Later he was twice convicted and spent 8 years in prison on the grounds that followed Christ's command: "Put your sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." Because of discrimination it six times had to relocate. In 1982, he was faced with the search and seizure of religious literature. Having recognized these people as victims of political repression, the government condemned the "years of terror unleashed by the Bolshevik Party and the Soviet regime against the clergy and the faithful of all religions" and committed itself to "ensure real guarantees of the rule of law and human rights." In fact, the government has promised to make sure that does not happen that with which they are faced.   11:22Omelchenko said the lawyer request for interrogation as witnesses of rehabilitated citizens who are Jehovah's Witnesses. The Court of First Instance rejected in their interrogation. Contrary to his promise, the court did not examine the right degree circumstances of political repression against Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia, for example, ignored the question, what actions of public authorities have already been recognized by political repression, and did not check whether to continue these acts committed against Witness Jehovah now. why the lawyer asked to postpone this hearing to determine the participants of the Whole proceedings on appeal against the decision. 11:11The room is composed of judges who will hear the case. Declaring the case, they establish who is party. Besides Viburnum Zhenkova, Lew and Novakova side administrative transponder is lawyer Yuriy Toporov. The composition of the Judicial Board - Manohina judge Galina (chairman), Zaytsev Vladimir Yurevich Vladimir V. Popov. None of the parties is to state the reasons for someone to judge the challenge.11:17After the introductory words of the lawyer Omelchenko said motion to postpone consideration of the case until then, until the decision will be made by the numerous individual complaints, which have been adopted in the production of the Appeals Chamber of the Supreme Court. The lawyer explains that the decision of the court numerous complaints from individuals were filed on April 20, which substantiated the details that have been affected by the decision of their rights and interests, and thus they had to be brought to participate in the case. The fact that they did not have the opportunity to participate in the case, itself indicates that the decision should be automatically canceled. However, all these complaints were returned without any analysis of the given arguments. The Court merely stated that "the contested judicial act does not resolve the issue of their rights and responsibilities." In response, citizens filed a private complaint, however, contrary to all logic, the Court intends to consider them already after will make a final decision on the case. That's why 9:30On Moscow's Arbat District, where the Supreme Court of Russia, go dark clouds. At the entrance to the courthouse gathered a large group of citizens, their number is closer to 150. Those who stand in the queue, came to the entrance at 4am. Noticeable journalists armed with shooting equipment. Moscow police to ensure public order. 10:00To hear once again provided the largest meeting room. On the faces of the court employees solemn expression, everyone is trying to flawlessly perform their duties. In the hall I heard a discreet hum.10:05In the courtroom, sounds foreign speech: there is quite a lot of foreign observers, the majority are Jehovah's Witnesses in different countries. Also have observers who arrived at the courthouse with diplomatic plates on cars. 10:40Place an administrative claimant is empty. On the part of the defendant administration - representative of a religious organization Vasiliy Mihaylovich Kalin, lawyers Viktor Zhenkov and Anton Omelchenko, a lawyer Maksim Novakov. 10:50In the courtroom, leaning over a tablet, journalists of Russian mass media work. Place an administrative claimant takes Svetlana Konstantinovna Borisova, who represented the Ministry of Justice in the Court of First Instance.11:10The room was quiet, the parties and observers are waiting for the judges. 11:11The room is composed of judges who will hear the case. Declaring the case, they establish who is party. Besides Viburnum Zhenkova, Lew and Novakova side administrative transpond
  17. Haha
    JW Insider got a reaction from DespicableME in ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view   
    The general view by the Governing Body is likely that this is exactly what they have been doing for as long as possible, but I'm sure that all or most of them believe they have been doing it for the right reasons. I have no reason to believe that any of the current Governing Body doubt the general idea about 1914, whether or not all of them specifically believe in the Daniel 4 foundation or not. (For many years, Daniel 4 on its own, had nothing to do with the "foundation" for 1914, although it was considered to be a weaker, but still valid, bit of corollary evidence by Russell.)
    If it were only true. What this "scholarly type," R.Furuli, had done was take the 10 pieces of independent archaeological and historical evidence and not even address 8 of them except with flippant false claims that shows he doesn't even care to research them. He pins all the importance on only ONE of those pieces of evidence, which is odd because 607 as the year when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem is falsified just as easily by the other pieces of evidence without even needing to rely at all on this one piece of evidence. But then, even at that, he comes up with the most convoluted reasons for rejecting this one item: VAT 4956.
    VAT 4956 is one of several astronomical diaries that would ultimately identify Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year as the year 568/567 BCE, based on the astronomy that fits no other possible year. Of course, if the tablet is correct, then it's the same as saying Nebuchadnezzar's 36th year would be 569/8 BCE, his 35th would be 570/569 BCE on back to his 19th (or 18th) year, which would be 587/6 BCE, which is a year that Jeremiah and 2 Chronicles associate with the destruction of Jerusalem. In other words, it's just another of several items of evidence that consistently fits the "secular" chronology -- which also happens to fit the Biblical chronology, even though these particular bits of Biblical evidence are not accepted by the Watch Tower Society.
    But even though Furuli grasps at all kinds of straws to invalidate the tablet, most JWs don't even realize that Furuli ADMITS that most of it actually does refer to the date 567 and no other possible date. That is an admission that MOST of this tablet still invalidates the Watch Tower Society's preferred date of 607 BCE for the Temple destruction. He even says that the museum curators might have taken a grinding tool and forged the "37" onto it to look exactly like all the other cuneiform letters that were made when the clay was still wet. Since it's a two-sided piece of clay, he even thinks that one of the two sides might have been faked and didn't originally go together. This is in spite of the fact that he admits that the number 37 on the tablet (in more than one place) is the correct year for most of the readings.
    He thought he could find some trouble with the lunar readings, based especially on the fact that there is a known copyist's error on the tablet. He admits that he was an amateur when it came to trying to figure out the astronomical readings, but it does not take a genius to try to duplicate his readings and see that his mistakes were worse than amateurish. They have been discussed elsewhere on the site, and so far, everyone who has tried to duplicate them has seen the errors.
    But as you said: "That's all you need." Unfortunately, this is true for many persons. I think that most of us believe that if someone makes a claim that fits a preconceived notion, it must be true. It's a lot like watching CNN and MSNBC fall over themselves to find new ways to use the phrase "Russia hacked our 2016 election." Very few point out that one of the candidates failed to even visit states where she had a preconceived notion of a sure win.
  18. Like
    JW Insider got a reaction from Carol Ann Torres in NOAH! – The END OF THE WORLD – IS NOT COMING! WHAT IS RAIN?   
    Although we can be sure that Noah would have been required to explain to many persons why he was building such a huge boat, we shouldn't try to make Jesus say something in Matthew 24 that Jesus never said. Jesus never said that Noah warned anyone about the coming flood. The Bible never says that he warned people about a coming flood. So why do we add the idea that Noah WARNED them? 
    It's true that some people might get the idea from the way in which the NWT adds the words "took no note:"
    (Matthew 24:39) and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.
    But these words are not in the original Greek, so we shouldn't try to make them imply something that the Bible doesn't say. Below are all the translations, for example, that are provided at blueletterbible.org: https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/mat/24/36/t_bibles_953039
    So even if there was some preaching about God's righteousness (2 Peter 2:5), which could have been through Noah's example (as implied in Hebrews 11:7), rather than any kind of warning campaign, Jesus was not making any point about a warning, because he had just spent the entire previous part of the chapter saying that there would be no warning. The disciples wanted a warning sign about the judgment event on Jerusalem and Jesus said that there would be no advance warning sign, otherwise how could the parousia come as a thief in the night. So what Jesus says about Noah, should fit what he says about the way the parousia (judgment event) came upon the generation of Noah's day.
    KJV And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. © Info
    NKJV “and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. © Info
    NLT People didn’t realize what was going to happen until the flood came and swept them all away. That is the way it will be when the Son of Man comes. © Info
    NIV and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. © Info
    ESV and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. © Info
    HCSB They didn’t know until the flood came and swept them all away. So this is the way the coming of the Son of Man will be:
    © Info
    RVR60 y no entendieron hasta que vino el diluvio y se los llevó a todos, así será también la venida del Hijo del Hombre. © Info
    NASB and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. © Info
    NET And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man. © Info
    RSV and they did not know until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of man. © Info
    ASV and they knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall be the coming of the Son of man. © Info
    YLT and they did not know till the flood came and took all away; so shall be also the presence of the Son of Man. © Info
    DBY and they knew not till the flood came and took all away; thus also shall be the coming of the Son of man. © Info
    WEB And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away: so also will be the coming of the Son of man. © Info
    HNV and they didn't know until the flood came, and took them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. © Info
  19. Like
    JW Insider got a reaction from ComfortMyPeople in CAN WE SPOT A LOST SHEEP ?......   
    FWIW, I think that you made your point very well, and the fact that you got people to defend a parallel between the way we measure spiritual health with the way we measure physical health made your point even stronger. At least to those who understand that you are coming at this from the viewpoint of first-century Christians.
    I heard two two Circuit Overseers (one was a "retired" CO) laughing about how the Apostle Paul would have probably thrown a fit if he saw how much emphasis was put on measuring numbers. It was their opinion that this is exactly what legalism was all about: measures vs. motivation. And it's not just Matthew 6:3, of course. It's the context of the entire "Sermon on the Mount" where it comes from.
    (Matthew 6:1, 2) . . .“Take care not to practice your righteousness in front of men to be noticed by them; otherwise you will have no reward with your Father who is in the heavens. 2 So when you make gifts of mercy, do not blow a trumpet ahead of you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be glorified by men. . . .
    The idea of a "pioneer" or "full-time servant" as opposed to a publisher is just another legalism based on a measure so that we are "noticed" for our gifts of mercy. So the entire context of Romans (regarding "law") and other letters of Paul are just as applicable. We are being reminded that we probably would not have the motivation to perform such works without the "notice" that these "awarded" titles provide. Yet Jehovah does not reward "service" and "works;" Jehovah rewards only pure, heart-felt motivation. Works can be void of pure motivation, but pure motivation will never be void of the kind of works that Jehovah appreciates. Jehovah rewards only the motivation based on love for Him and love for our fellow humans. He sees our works, and does not ignore them of course, but it's our work done in secret, never reported to anyone, that is evidence of proper motivation. Otherwise, it is just as likely that it is men we are trying to please, not Jehovah. 
    As I'm sure you already know, there are literally hundreds of other verses in support of this same idea.
     
  20. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to PeterR in CAN WE SPOT A LOST SHEEP ?......   
    I do. And thanks for your comments JWI. Sometimes it's easy to feel you're going nuts when you are reading clear admonitions in the Bible, and you've got so many people implying that we're just exempt from certain passages without ever explaining why.
  21. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from PeterR in CAN WE SPOT A LOST SHEEP ?......   
    FWIW, I think that you made your point very well, and the fact that you got people to defend a parallel between the way we measure spiritual health with the way we measure physical health made your point even stronger. At least to those who understand that you are coming at this from the viewpoint of first-century Christians.
    I heard two two Circuit Overseers (one was a "retired" CO) laughing about how the Apostle Paul would have probably thrown a fit if he saw how much emphasis was put on measuring numbers. It was their opinion that this is exactly what legalism was all about: measures vs. motivation. And it's not just Matthew 6:3, of course. It's the context of the entire "Sermon on the Mount" where it comes from.
    (Matthew 6:1, 2) . . .“Take care not to practice your righteousness in front of men to be noticed by them; otherwise you will have no reward with your Father who is in the heavens. 2 So when you make gifts of mercy, do not blow a trumpet ahead of you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be glorified by men. . . .
    The idea of a "pioneer" or "full-time servant" as opposed to a publisher is just another legalism based on a measure so that we are "noticed" for our gifts of mercy. So the entire context of Romans (regarding "law") and other letters of Paul are just as applicable. We are being reminded that we probably would not have the motivation to perform such works without the "notice" that these "awarded" titles provide. Yet Jehovah does not reward "service" and "works;" Jehovah rewards only pure, heart-felt motivation. Works can be void of pure motivation, but pure motivation will never be void of the kind of works that Jehovah appreciates. Jehovah rewards only the motivation based on love for Him and love for our fellow humans. He sees our works, and does not ignore them of course, but it's our work done in secret, never reported to anyone, that is evidence of proper motivation. Otherwise, it is just as likely that it is men we are trying to please, not Jehovah. 
    As I'm sure you already know, there are literally hundreds of other verses in support of this same idea.
     
  22. Thanks
    JW Insider reacted to PeterR in CAN WE SPOT A LOST SHEEP ?......   
    Sure. If you think true Christianity is measured like blood pressure then I have no wish to argue with you. I believe JW's are fairly unique among Christian denominations in this regard. Perhaps Jesus' direction in Matt 6:3 doesn't actually apply to us, and perhaps also the Bible just omitted the need to measure people by "hours of work" by accident.
    If you truly believe that then I don't wish to dispute with you. Some people are suggesting that it's the right way to handle things, and I'm simply pointing out the mindset and counter-productive fruits that can result by being constantly oriented in this way.
    Personally I don't feel that any scriptural instruction is for no reason, but I appreciate that others rationalize differently.
  23. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Anna in Vladimir Putin ‘bathes in blood extracted from severed deer antlers’, according to claim...   
    Before taking this story seriously, I'd like to see Putin brag about it himself somewhere. This is exactly the kind of thing that war-mongers and regime-change-mongers monger for. Daily and nightly we see two or three major USA media outlets hawk for some kind of war against Russia in vicarious support of the person who came in second in our last presidential election.
    She apparently would have wanted it that way if she won, and the 52% (or so) of Americans that wanted her to win apparently think it would be poetic justice against Trump's imagined Russian friends [if we could start a war].
  24. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Evacuated in International Delegation Supports Russian Brotherhood   
    Cant see this under Russian news yet:
    https://tv.jw.org/#en/mediaitems/LatestVideos/pub-jwb_201707_14_VIDEO
     
  25. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Bible Speaks in International Delegation Supports Russian Brotherhood   
    `Within the country of Russia we have exhausted all of the available appeals, but we are going to take the matter to the European court of human rights... Infact,within the next few days we will be applying for interim measures where the European court (if chooses) can attempt to block the the carrying out of the court decision`....
    WATCH A SPECIAL SECTION OF JW BROADCASTING WHICH SHOWS HOW 20 BROTHERS FROM 18 DIFFERENT COUNTRIES TRAVELLED TO SUPPORT THE RUSSIAN BROTHERS AND SISTERS DURING THE APPEAL
    (Psalm 124:2-8)
    2 “If Jehovah had not been with usWhen men rose up to attack us,
    3 Then they would have swallowed us up aliveWhen their anger was burning against us.
    4 Then the waters would have washed us away,The torrent would have swept over us.
    5 The raging waters would have overwhelmed us.
    6 May Jehovah be praised,For he has not given us as prey to their teeth.
    7 We are like a bird that escapedFrom the hunter’s trap;The trap was broken,And we escaped.
    8 Our help is in the name of Jehovah,The Maker of heaven and earth.”
    (if double reporting can't find the other, sorry!)
    https://tv.jw.org/#en/home

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