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JW Insider

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  1. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from OtherSheep in Did the MILLIONS Campaign Just Become a False Prophecy?   
    LOL!
    Best answer I've ever seen to this question.
    My father, originally from Chicago, has a photograph of the sign mentioned in the following experience. They didn't want it for the Proclaimer's book but it had been mentioned in the 1975 Yearbook.
    *** yb75 p. 127 Part 2—United States of America ***
    Recalling the effect of the “Millions Campaign,” Rufus Chappell writes: “We had offered the publication Millions Now Living Will Never Die in and around Zion [Illinois] and the results were of interest. I remember a large, flashing electric sign over the Waukegan Dry Cleaners building on North Sheridan Road about five miles from Zion, which said, ‘We Dye for the Millions Now Living Who Will Never Die.’ This was a very popular subject at that time, and many people had questioned the phrase and learned the truth from this publication.”
    We are all loathe to call the slogan a false prophecy. But that is my point. If someone else had said it, I think it would definitely be one. And, of course, we're only focusing on the slogan itself here. If we were to look at the set of teachings that made up the talks and the publications behind the slogan, we would find dozens of "false teachings" and "false prophecies." It's just that we can't use the term "false prophecy" or even "false teaching" when referring to our past teachings and predictions that turned out not to be true.
    Still, we have no problem finding quotes from the older publications that spoke of Russell and even Rutherford as "prophets" in this era. But is it the course of humility or a course of pride to speak of the false teachings of others, but never admit that we could have been guilty of a "false" teaching or a "false" prophecy? I know it's OK to say that a teaching or prediction was "mistaken," or that it was a "old light," or a previous teaching before the "light got brighter," or that it was "the right thing expected at the wrong time" or the "wrong thing expected at the right time." We might even say that it was "untrue." But, for many decades now, we can never bring ourselves to admit that we were teaching a "false" teaching.  We are still quick to pin that label on others though:
    *** g81 12/8 p. 14 Do You Recognize the Meaning of What You See? ***
    Political leaders often end up being “false prophets” unable to fulfill their promises. Of course, not every ruler turns out to be a “Hitler,” whose promised “thousand-year reich” proved to be a disastrous 12 years of misrule. The danger that one will be a “false prophet” increases, however, in direct proportion to their number. And that number is increasing—rapidly.
    A very prominent political “prophet” of our present century was the League of Nations, formed in 1919. It foretold a world of lasting peace. But World War II unceremoniously dumped it into a pit of inactivity. It was replaced in 1945 by the United Nations organization, which doubtless is trying to prevent the outbreak of an atomic World War III. But has it truly ‘maintained international peace and security,’ as its charter prophesied?
    It's curious too that it was in 1919 that the Watchtower was one of first organizations to speak about the League of Nations as if it was a political expression of the kingdom of God on earth. When we changed our view on that, just a few months later, we spoke of other religions as being guilty as false prophets for having held that same view.
     
  2. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Evacuated in Did the MILLIONS Campaign Just Become a False Prophecy?   
    It is pretty clear that it is impossible for millions who were living in 1925 and prior to never die as they are likely already ...dead!
    But you know, I am loathe to term the famous slogan "Millions Now Living Will Never Die" as a false prophecy similar to something like "infants who die will be safe in the arms of Jesus and will spend eternity with Him in heaven." This is the sort of thing used by some religious groups to comfort those bereaved of infants. Or how about "Put the Church Behind Pershing. To win this war the boys at the front need strength of spirit " used by the American Bible Society to fund-raise for Bible distribution to soldiers during WW1?
    Intrinsically,"Millions Now Living Will Never Die" is a true statement. What was wrong about it was the timing and the context of it's application.
    To borrow Paul's illustration, Christians are likened to runners in a race. Well, most of us have seen a false start haven't we? The tension and excitement of the moment can carry away even the most seasoned athletes on occasion. And the alertness and eagerness of sincere Christians to the return of Christ has given rise to false alarms in modern times, even as it did amongst the disciples. The good thing about a Christian "jumping the gun" is that they can always get back in the race.
    As a rallying cry, the Millions slogan certainly captured the attention of many. Preaching in the 70's, I still met people who had attended one of these lectures by Judge Rutherford. Many may have dropped out with expectation unfulfilled, but any who were alerted to the Bible's message by the Millions campaign, and who are still active Jehovah's witnesses, are unlikely to have regretted that decision although their number would only be a fraction of the "Millions" expected at the time.
    Would it have been better to use a slogan like "Billions Now Living Will Die For Ever" ? Attention grabbing maybe, but I think I prefer the original.
    Someone said "False starts may be considered illegal, but in life, I’d rather have a false start than no start at all." 


  3. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Evacuated in Will only Jehovah's Witnesses be saved?   
    Our concern for who will be saved is best transformed into action on two counts.
    1. 2Tim.4:2:  
    "Preach the word; be at it urgently in favorable times and difficult times"
    2. 2Pet.3:14
    "Therefore, beloved ones, since you are awaiting these things, do your utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace"
    Paul reinforces this second point:
    Phil.2:12 "keep working out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
     
  4. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Thinking in Will only Jehovah's Witnesses be saved?   
    There have been several statements in the publications for those concerned about children, mentally incapacitated, and those alive at Armageddon who have never had an opportunity to learn of Jehovah's goodness. We once taught that all honest-hearted persons have an opportunity because the angels could create the opportunity for them, even in countries like China, Saudi Arabia, India, etc. Yet, the gains that Witnesses have made in various countries around the world are almost always in proportion to the number of missionaries from Christendom who were allowed to work in these areas in the 17th through the 19th centuries. If Christendom paved the way, then we will do relatively well. If Christendom had been allowed very few concessions or none, then this is also the predictor of how well we have done (so far).
    I thought that the related statement below (from 2002) not only says it clearly, but also reminds us to think about our own attitudes. Armageddon, Jehovah's impending judgment, should be a "motivation" for us to show whether we look at our fellow inhabitants with love. Do we see "each" and every individual [in the entire world] as having the potential to become a servant of Jehovah? Love makes us want to share the good things we have. If we love our neighbor, we want to share our experiences with them. If they are uncomfortable, or suffering, we want to share what we can with them to make them more comfortable, and ease their suffering. Religion is generally designed to bring comfort, but often leaves people less comfortable. Religion seems not to address the terrible prospects for the planet brought about by the greed of man. Yet, our message is a very comforting one for those sighing and crying, desperate, and  broken-hearted -- including especially, those who have a love for life on this planet.
    The 0.1% number that you mentioned has been repeated in the same context with the message that literally billions will die. (99.9%) But, the publications no longer try to put a number or a percent on the deaths at Armageddon. I like the way it was worded here:
    *** w02 8/15 pp. 18-19 par. 13 “Follow Me Continually” ***
    How may we imitate him in this regard? Never should we develop a callous attitude toward the people around us. Granted, “the war of the great day of God the Almighty” is looming ever nearer, and many among mankind’s billions will be destroyed. (Revelation 16:14; Jeremiah 25:33) Yet, we do not know who will live and who will die. That judgment lies in the future and belongs to the one Jehovah has appointed, Jesus Christ. Until the judgment is passed, we view each individual as having the potential to become a servant of Jehovah.—Matthew 19:24-26; 25:31-33; Acts 17:31.
    To me, this is one of the most significant improvements to our teachings because it does not open us up to the charge of being haughty and presumptuous about who will survive and who won't.
    For me, this is one of many improvements the current Governing Body have promoted. When I was first going out in service, and even well after I was baptized, the attitude was quite different, and I remembered being bothered by it, especially when I had to defend that attitude to householders.
    *** w55 11/1 p. 648 Using Wisely the Reduced Time Left ***
    Time spent in trying to accumulate wealth, fame or power or in trying to perpetuate this old system of things is wasted, and that is what more than 99.9 per cent of this earth’s population are doing.
    *** w58 10/15 pp. 614-615 What Will Armageddon Mean for You? ***
    On Satan’s side will be all the rest of mankind, more than 99.9 percent, even as we read: “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” That includes all the governments of the world together with their supporters, the commercial, religious and social institutions. Even the professedly Christian organizations? Yes, because all such that are friends of the world are making themselves enemies of God. . . . God’s Word likens Armageddon to the Flood, to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and to the battle at Gibeon, where God rained down great blocks of ice upon his enemies. Armageddon will be the worst thing ever to hit this earth in the history of man. It will be marked by . . . tremendous upheavals of earth, . . . rain of corrosive liquid fire and terror in the air, on land and in the sea.  No wonder that “the slain of Jehovah shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the face of the ground.”—Jer. 25:33, AS.
    There was also an idea that children should be baptized as fast as possible, or the children might not survive even if the parents did. The expression "get into the Ark before the door closes" was even a part of the baptism talk at the assembly in 1967.
    *** w58 6/1 p. 330 Why Dedicate Ourselves to God? ***
    And yet that is the very course that more than 99.9 percent of earth’s population take and it accounts for the fact that the earth is filled with confusion, misery and wickedness. . . . Dedication is therefore the course of wisdom, for “the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life.” . . . Nor may we vacillate or delay. We are living in the days comparable to those in which Noah lived and time is running out! If we procrastinate we may not survive the foretold cataclysmic end of this old world at Armageddon.
    *** w51 11/15 p. 682 par. 23 Baptism for Salvation and Fire Baptism ***
    So the Scriptural conclusion is that what brought salvation from the deluge was for the survivors to be baptized or immersed into Noah the ark-builder. . . . The seven who went into the ark with Noah had to have confidence in him as Jehovah’s prophet. They had to be unbreakably attached to him . . . . They had to be incorporated into a system of things not of that world, a theocratic arrangement in which Noah was the chief builder, the chief consultant and shipmaster or pilot. So they had to submit to him as the head who took the lead and directed the body of fellow workers. Doing all this, they were in effect baptized into Noah. This being baptized into a chosen servant of Jehovah was duplicated in the case of Moses. As he was the mediator between God and the Israelites, they had no approach into relationship with God except through him. They had to accept Jehovah’s laws through him. Outside of the theocratic organization under Moses’ visible headship and outside of this “state of Israel” there was no hope and a person was “without God in the world”.

    Since 99.9% of the world population was going to die at Armageddon, some began saying that they could die but would surely be resurrected. My mother asked about this when hosting the circuit overseer for the week, and the circuit overseer's wife mentioned that her husband had given a talk where he said that they might die during the great tribulation when it was not "Jehovah's final judgment" at Armageddon. My mother was happy. (Her mother, my grandmother, worked almost all her life with mentally handicapped, "idiot savants," etc. Persons full of a lot of love but supposedly without prospects to survive Armageddon.)
    Don't know whether the circuit overseer was told to say this or just speculating personally, but this was quite different from previous teachings. For example, both issues: the issue of "children" and the issue of the "uninformed" were dealt with in this question:
    *** w51 5/1 pp. 287-288 Questions From Readers ***
    Some maintain that at Armageddon there will be three classes: sheep that survive, goats that are eternally destroyed, and uninformed or unresponsible ones who will die but will be resurrected, and that in this latter class will be young children. Is this correct?-L. P., Montana.
    We know of no Scriptural backing for such a view. The parable of the sheep and goats shows the nations being separated into two classes, not three. The goats headed for everlasting cutting-off are not just those who persecuted Christ’s brothers. The parable upbraids the goats, not for what they did, but for what they failed to do, for their indifference toward and lack of interest in his brothers.—Matt. 25:45.
    Many who never come in touch with the anointed remnant nevertheless subscribe to what others do in persecuting or fail to do in the way of giving help. The Bible shows a communal responsibility, where a community upholds rulers who persecute Jehovah’s people. Did not the Egyptians suffer the plagues because of Pharaoh’s hardheartedness? Did not the Amalekites suffer for generations afterward because of Amalek’s opposition to Israel in the wilderness? Were not the entire households, including little children, of Korah and Dathan and Abiram swallowed up in destruction because of the rebellion of the household heads? Did not Achan by his greed bring death not only to himself but to his sons and daughters as well? Even King David brought death upon his people by his own transgressions. (Ex. 5:1, 2; 9:13-16; 17:8, 14, 16; 20:5, 6; Num. 16:23-33; Josh. 7:24, 25; 2 Sam. 24:10-17) Now, who will be rash and commit the folly of posing as more just than God by saying He was wrong in such procedures?—Deut. 32:4.
    In harmony with the parable of the sheep and goats, Ezekiel chapter 9 shows but two classes, those marked for preservation and the unmarked ones appointed to destruction. And in this latter class note that little children were included, to be slain without pity. This is a prophetic picture of the destruction at Armageddon. At a time of judgment Jesus said: “If the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.” That means not only clergy and laity but also parent and child. If a parent chooses to sin against the holy spirit despite the eternal interests of his offspring, that then becomes the responsibility of the parent. In that same time of judgment Paul and Barnabas said to the Jews: “It was necessary for the word of God to be spoken first to you. Since you are thrusting it away from you and do not judge yourselves worthy of everlasting life, look! we turn to the nations.” (Acts 13:46, NW) Those Jews became responsible for the fate of their offspring, not Paul and Barnabas.
    Parents devoted to their children will in the interests of their offspring shun wrong ways, taking instead right paths so as to put their children in the way of preservation. “Jehovah knows those who belong to him,” and that also means little children at Armageddon whose parents belong to Jehovah and who try to rear them according to God’s Word. (Deut. 6:6, 7; Eph. 6:4; 2 Tim. 2:19, NW) To Christian parents of young children the promise is: “Otherwise, your children would really be unclean, but now they are holy.”—1 Cor. 7:14, NW.
    About 10 years after I was baptized, at the same time I started pioneering full-time, a more comforting answer became available (and has been repeated since):
    *** w76 6/1 p. 347 pars. 16-17 Look Forward with Confidence in God’s Righteousness and Justice ***
    16 Observe, however, that Jesus did not leave it up to humans to determine who are the “sheep” and who are the “goats.” How fine that is! For, if we humans were responsible to judge, how could we properly evaluate factors such as: How much of an opportunity did a person have to hear and accept the good news? Did his genetic, family or religious background affect his response? What is his heart condition—does he love righteousness? If he is a child or was born mentally retarded, how much bearing should family or community responsibility have on the matter?—1 Cor. 7:14; Deut. 30:19.
    17 Unquestionably, not one of us is qualified to weigh these, and perhaps many other, vital factors and principles. We could not reach judgments that are ‘perfect, righteous and upright.’ (Deut. 32:4) Hence, why should any of us become needlessly involved with trying to decide who will survive and who will not?
     
     
  5. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from OtherSheep in The timing of Jesus' 2nd Coming   
    I agree almost 100% with everything you said in this post, except for about 2 lines. If the differences seem important, I'll point them out, but mainly I want to understand specifically why the current explanation of Daniel 4 makes sense to you in the way it does.
    I agree that it's easy to go too far with this type of questioning. I may have done this, even though I was trying to stick with only questions that gave me the most difficulty. And, of course, I agree with the main point of Daniel 4 that Jehovah is in charge, and the rulership(s) of the kingdom(s) of mankind are by his permission which he could revoke or renew at any time he chooses. In order to prove this point to a very haughty pagan king, Jehovah created a situation that would prove the point undeniably, even to such a haughty person who never worshiped the true God. It worked.
    Obviously, from this illustration, we would accept that the same holds true not just of Nebuchadnezzar, but of all kings and rulers, including Belshazzar, Cyrus, Artaxerxes, Tiberius Caesar, Adolph Hitler, Ronald Reagan, Margaret Thatcher, Angela Merkel, King Hussein, Nelson Mandela, etc. And it very well also applies to Jesus Christ, the heavenly ruler who has taken his great power and begun ruling as king.
    I agree that it applies to Jesus in a somewhat different sense. It's only by the way we extend any parable that it also applies also to Jesus. The methods of trying to somehow "equate" Jesus and Nebuchadnezzar in a special manner do not make sense. (I'll explain that "special manner" below.)
    And, yes, I realize that we aren't equating them in all respects. I was only giving a couple of examples of why it can appear absurd to equate them at all.
    So I do see a correlation to Jehovah's overall sovereignty over the nations but I don't see a single correlation between the experience of Nebuchadnezzar and how this relates to the experience of the Messianic line, specifically. The Messianic line is included in any extended meaning we get from the experience, and of course, it was also brought low and raised on high to an even greater place of importance than it had before under David, or Zedekiah. But there is nothing in the passage that allows us to say that it specifically means Jesus. Especially is there nothing that says it means Jesus in an even more important way than what it meant for Nebuchadnezzar. It taught a universal truth, about God's rulership, especially over the wicked rulers of the world. It does NOT seem to ESPECIALLY teach a parable about God's rulership over his own kingdom through Christ Jesus.
    Of course, the supposed "key" is the fact that it says "so that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that he gives it to whomever he wants, and he sets up over it even the lowliest of men.” But we can see from the context that this is not specifically about Jesus. Since this is a universal truth, it applies everywhere. So, it's no surprise that we can say it also applies to Jesus as part of the Judean Messianic kingly line. We also know it applied when he raised up his servant Cyrus. It also applied during another part of Nebuchadnezzar's own life when he raised the kings of Babylon up to punish the kingdoms surrounding Judea, (such as the king of Tyre) and to also punish Judea itself during the 70 years of domination that Jehovah gave to Babylon. Sennacherib got the same lesson earlier when he was brought low while warring against Israel.
    This must be where you think I'm "short-sighted" because I don't see a direct correlation that applies to only ONE other kingdom. Naturally, I think that it might be even more short-sighted to limit the scope to only one other kingdom. Some of the problems and ironies make me wonder whether the ONE other kingdom we teach to be the ONLY solution is even appropriate for this particular illustration. Since it's not even in the same category of the types of pagan, wicked and haughty kingdom's like Nebuchadnezzar's perhaps it's especially not in the most appropriate category for us to draw such a SPECIFIC meaning out of Daniel 4. In our doctrine, the experience of this one wicked and vicious king is ONLY meant to point to only ONE other specific kingdom besides him, and that one is surely not in the category of wicked, vicious, pagan kings -- because it's Jesus Christ. 
    As I said, I agree with almost everything in your post. But another thing you said that I believe I can respond to is this:
    For me, the answer seems straightforward. It is very logical that Jehovah knew and wanted his people to be concerned about time in order to be alert to identifying the Messiah, and to strengthen faith in the fact that Jehovah has the world and its administration under control.
    There is only one reason why there could come a time when he would NOT want them to continue relying on cues from chronology -- and that would be when he was looking for a kind of faith that made us ready at all times without respect to the times and seasons, without respect to looking for signs of the times. If Jesus was looking for that kind of faith, even if the world went on for another thousand years or more (2 Peter 3:8) then I would expect that Jesus would say something like:
    (Acts 1:7) . . .“It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction. And I would expect that the apostles such as Paul would agree with Jesus here and say things such as:
    (1 Thessalonians 5:1, 2) 5 Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know very well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night. And I would expect that Jesus would explain, just as he did for his disciples when they asked, that we shouldn't be looking for signs of the parousia because we could be misled by thinking that wars, earthquakes, pestilence and such things were signs of the end when the end was not yet.
    (Matthew 24:3-6) . . .“Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” 4 In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, . . . 6 You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for these things must take place, but the end is not yet. (Luke 17:20) 20 On being asked by the Pharisees when the Kingdom of God was coming, he answered them: “The Kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness (NWT) (Luke 17:20 One day the Pharisees asked Jesus, “When will the Kingdom of God come?” Jesus replied, “The Kingdom of God can’t be detected by visible signs." (NLT)  
     
     
  6. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from OtherSheep in 1 Peter 3:15   
    Jesus is "a god" in the sense of being divine. A divine representation of the Almighty Father. As humans, we cannot fathom the depth and breadth of the Almighty, but His Son represents Him in such a way that we can understand Him and therefore bring the Lord into our hearts. In other words, even if it had been translated "...sanctify the Christ as Jehovah in your hearts. . ." we should still see it in the sense that Christ has helped us to bring Jehovah into our hearts. It's in the way John 1 explains:
    (John 1:14-18) 14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth. . . 16 For we all received from his fullness, even undeserved kindness upon undeserved kindness. 17 Because the Law was given through Moses, the undeserved kindness and the truth came to be through Jesus Christ. 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.
    Jesus, in heaven, still considers the Father to be his God. (Rev 1:1, etc.)
  7. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from OtherSheep in God's Kingdom Rules book   
    Shiwii,
    So you believe that mercy and compassion is in your bowels? As you can see from the quick Bible word-study below the word "bowels" (the same bowels that spilled out from Judas) also refers to the place where our mercy and compassion comes from.
    Perhaps you think it was just incorrectly worded by John when he said "whosoever . . . shutteth up his bowels, how can the love of God dwell in him?" (1 John 3:17) [The words "of compassion" are not even in the original Greek.]
    I hope no one ever gets constipated (or requires a heart transplant, or artificial heart, for that matter).
     
    ---------quotes are from King James Version-----------
     
     
    Act 1:18
    Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels G4698 gushed out.
    2Co 6:12
    Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels. G4698
    2Co 7:15
    And his inward affection G4698 is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him.
    Phl 1:8
    For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels G4698 of Jesus Christ.
    Phl 2:1
    If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels G4698 and mercies,
    Col 3:12
    Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels G4698 of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
    Phm 1:7
    For we have great joy and consolation in thy love, because the bowels G4698 of the saints are refreshed by thee, brother.
    Phm 1:12
    Whom I have sent again: thou therefore receive him, that is, mine own bowels: G4698
    Phm 1:20
    Yea, brother, let me have joy of thee in the Lord: refresh my bowels G4698 in the Lord.
    1Jo 3:17
    But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels G4698of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
  8. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Arauna in Will only Jehovah's Witnesses be saved?   
    There have been several statements in the publications for those concerned about children, mentally incapacitated, and those alive at Armageddon who have never had an opportunity to learn of Jehovah's goodness. We once taught that all honest-hearted persons have an opportunity because the angels could create the opportunity for them, even in countries like China, Saudi Arabia, India, etc. Yet, the gains that Witnesses have made in various countries around the world are almost always in proportion to the number of missionaries from Christendom who were allowed to work in these areas in the 17th through the 19th centuries. If Christendom paved the way, then we will do relatively well. If Christendom had been allowed very few concessions or none, then this is also the predictor of how well we have done (so far).
    I thought that the related statement below (from 2002) not only says it clearly, but also reminds us to think about our own attitudes. Armageddon, Jehovah's impending judgment, should be a "motivation" for us to show whether we look at our fellow inhabitants with love. Do we see "each" and every individual [in the entire world] as having the potential to become a servant of Jehovah? Love makes us want to share the good things we have. If we love our neighbor, we want to share our experiences with them. If they are uncomfortable, or suffering, we want to share what we can with them to make them more comfortable, and ease their suffering. Religion is generally designed to bring comfort, but often leaves people less comfortable. Religion seems not to address the terrible prospects for the planet brought about by the greed of man. Yet, our message is a very comforting one for those sighing and crying, desperate, and  broken-hearted -- including especially, those who have a love for life on this planet.
    The 0.1% number that you mentioned has been repeated in the same context with the message that literally billions will die. (99.9%) But, the publications no longer try to put a number or a percent on the deaths at Armageddon. I like the way it was worded here:
    *** w02 8/15 pp. 18-19 par. 13 “Follow Me Continually” ***
    How may we imitate him in this regard? Never should we develop a callous attitude toward the people around us. Granted, “the war of the great day of God the Almighty” is looming ever nearer, and many among mankind’s billions will be destroyed. (Revelation 16:14; Jeremiah 25:33) Yet, we do not know who will live and who will die. That judgment lies in the future and belongs to the one Jehovah has appointed, Jesus Christ. Until the judgment is passed, we view each individual as having the potential to become a servant of Jehovah.—Matthew 19:24-26; 25:31-33; Acts 17:31.
    To me, this is one of the most significant improvements to our teachings because it does not open us up to the charge of being haughty and presumptuous about who will survive and who won't.
    For me, this is one of many improvements the current Governing Body have promoted. When I was first going out in service, and even well after I was baptized, the attitude was quite different, and I remembered being bothered by it, especially when I had to defend that attitude to householders.
    *** w55 11/1 p. 648 Using Wisely the Reduced Time Left ***
    Time spent in trying to accumulate wealth, fame or power or in trying to perpetuate this old system of things is wasted, and that is what more than 99.9 per cent of this earth’s population are doing.
    *** w58 10/15 pp. 614-615 What Will Armageddon Mean for You? ***
    On Satan’s side will be all the rest of mankind, more than 99.9 percent, even as we read: “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” That includes all the governments of the world together with their supporters, the commercial, religious and social institutions. Even the professedly Christian organizations? Yes, because all such that are friends of the world are making themselves enemies of God. . . . God’s Word likens Armageddon to the Flood, to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and to the battle at Gibeon, where God rained down great blocks of ice upon his enemies. Armageddon will be the worst thing ever to hit this earth in the history of man. It will be marked by . . . tremendous upheavals of earth, . . . rain of corrosive liquid fire and terror in the air, on land and in the sea.  No wonder that “the slain of Jehovah shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the face of the ground.”—Jer. 25:33, AS.
    There was also an idea that children should be baptized as fast as possible, or the children might not survive even if the parents did. The expression "get into the Ark before the door closes" was even a part of the baptism talk at the assembly in 1967.
    *** w58 6/1 p. 330 Why Dedicate Ourselves to God? ***
    And yet that is the very course that more than 99.9 percent of earth’s population take and it accounts for the fact that the earth is filled with confusion, misery and wickedness. . . . Dedication is therefore the course of wisdom, for “the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life.” . . . Nor may we vacillate or delay. We are living in the days comparable to those in which Noah lived and time is running out! If we procrastinate we may not survive the foretold cataclysmic end of this old world at Armageddon.
    *** w51 11/15 p. 682 par. 23 Baptism for Salvation and Fire Baptism ***
    So the Scriptural conclusion is that what brought salvation from the deluge was for the survivors to be baptized or immersed into Noah the ark-builder. . . . The seven who went into the ark with Noah had to have confidence in him as Jehovah’s prophet. They had to be unbreakably attached to him . . . . They had to be incorporated into a system of things not of that world, a theocratic arrangement in which Noah was the chief builder, the chief consultant and shipmaster or pilot. So they had to submit to him as the head who took the lead and directed the body of fellow workers. Doing all this, they were in effect baptized into Noah. This being baptized into a chosen servant of Jehovah was duplicated in the case of Moses. As he was the mediator between God and the Israelites, they had no approach into relationship with God except through him. They had to accept Jehovah’s laws through him. Outside of the theocratic organization under Moses’ visible headship and outside of this “state of Israel” there was no hope and a person was “without God in the world”.

    Since 99.9% of the world population was going to die at Armageddon, some began saying that they could die but would surely be resurrected. My mother asked about this when hosting the circuit overseer for the week, and the circuit overseer's wife mentioned that her husband had given a talk where he said that they might die during the great tribulation when it was not "Jehovah's final judgment" at Armageddon. My mother was happy. (Her mother, my grandmother, worked almost all her life with mentally handicapped, "idiot savants," etc. Persons full of a lot of love but supposedly without prospects to survive Armageddon.)
    Don't know whether the circuit overseer was told to say this or just speculating personally, but this was quite different from previous teachings. For example, both issues: the issue of "children" and the issue of the "uninformed" were dealt with in this question:
    *** w51 5/1 pp. 287-288 Questions From Readers ***
    Some maintain that at Armageddon there will be three classes: sheep that survive, goats that are eternally destroyed, and uninformed or unresponsible ones who will die but will be resurrected, and that in this latter class will be young children. Is this correct?-L. P., Montana.
    We know of no Scriptural backing for such a view. The parable of the sheep and goats shows the nations being separated into two classes, not three. The goats headed for everlasting cutting-off are not just those who persecuted Christ’s brothers. The parable upbraids the goats, not for what they did, but for what they failed to do, for their indifference toward and lack of interest in his brothers.—Matt. 25:45.
    Many who never come in touch with the anointed remnant nevertheless subscribe to what others do in persecuting or fail to do in the way of giving help. The Bible shows a communal responsibility, where a community upholds rulers who persecute Jehovah’s people. Did not the Egyptians suffer the plagues because of Pharaoh’s hardheartedness? Did not the Amalekites suffer for generations afterward because of Amalek’s opposition to Israel in the wilderness? Were not the entire households, including little children, of Korah and Dathan and Abiram swallowed up in destruction because of the rebellion of the household heads? Did not Achan by his greed bring death not only to himself but to his sons and daughters as well? Even King David brought death upon his people by his own transgressions. (Ex. 5:1, 2; 9:13-16; 17:8, 14, 16; 20:5, 6; Num. 16:23-33; Josh. 7:24, 25; 2 Sam. 24:10-17) Now, who will be rash and commit the folly of posing as more just than God by saying He was wrong in such procedures?—Deut. 32:4.
    In harmony with the parable of the sheep and goats, Ezekiel chapter 9 shows but two classes, those marked for preservation and the unmarked ones appointed to destruction. And in this latter class note that little children were included, to be slain without pity. This is a prophetic picture of the destruction at Armageddon. At a time of judgment Jesus said: “If the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.” That means not only clergy and laity but also parent and child. If a parent chooses to sin against the holy spirit despite the eternal interests of his offspring, that then becomes the responsibility of the parent. In that same time of judgment Paul and Barnabas said to the Jews: “It was necessary for the word of God to be spoken first to you. Since you are thrusting it away from you and do not judge yourselves worthy of everlasting life, look! we turn to the nations.” (Acts 13:46, NW) Those Jews became responsible for the fate of their offspring, not Paul and Barnabas.
    Parents devoted to their children will in the interests of their offspring shun wrong ways, taking instead right paths so as to put their children in the way of preservation. “Jehovah knows those who belong to him,” and that also means little children at Armageddon whose parents belong to Jehovah and who try to rear them according to God’s Word. (Deut. 6:6, 7; Eph. 6:4; 2 Tim. 2:19, NW) To Christian parents of young children the promise is: “Otherwise, your children would really be unclean, but now they are holy.”—1 Cor. 7:14, NW.
    About 10 years after I was baptized, at the same time I started pioneering full-time, a more comforting answer became available (and has been repeated since):
    *** w76 6/1 p. 347 pars. 16-17 Look Forward with Confidence in God’s Righteousness and Justice ***
    16 Observe, however, that Jesus did not leave it up to humans to determine who are the “sheep” and who are the “goats.” How fine that is! For, if we humans were responsible to judge, how could we properly evaluate factors such as: How much of an opportunity did a person have to hear and accept the good news? Did his genetic, family or religious background affect his response? What is his heart condition—does he love righteousness? If he is a child or was born mentally retarded, how much bearing should family or community responsibility have on the matter?—1 Cor. 7:14; Deut. 30:19.
    17 Unquestionably, not one of us is qualified to weigh these, and perhaps many other, vital factors and principles. We could not reach judgments that are ‘perfect, righteous and upright.’ (Deut. 32:4) Hence, why should any of us become needlessly involved with trying to decide who will survive and who will not?
     
     
  9. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Evacuated in Will only Jehovah's Witnesses be saved?   
    Reminds me of these:

  10. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Shiwiii in God's Kingdom Rules book   
    So you believe that the law was not within their heart and Jesus didn't really mean what He said?
     Also, what is your take on Jesus speaking about the thoughts within their heart?  
    Was this just mistaken and worded incorrectly by John? 
     
  11. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Evacuated in God's Kingdom Rules book   
    Shiwii,
    So you believe that mercy and compassion is in your bowels? As you can see from the quick Bible word-study below the word "bowels" (the same bowels that spilled out from Judas) also refers to the place where our mercy and compassion comes from.
    Perhaps you think it was just incorrectly worded by John when he said "whosoever . . . shutteth up his bowels, how can the love of God dwell in him?" (1 John 3:17) [The words "of compassion" are not even in the original Greek.]
    I hope no one ever gets constipated (or requires a heart transplant, or artificial heart, for that matter).
     
    ---------quotes are from King James Version-----------
     
     
    Act 1:18
    Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels G4698 gushed out.
    2Co 6:12
    Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels. G4698
    2Co 7:15
    And his inward affection G4698 is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him.
    Phl 1:8
    For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels G4698 of Jesus Christ.
    Phl 2:1
    If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels G4698 and mercies,
    Col 3:12
    Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels G4698 of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
    Phm 1:7
    For we have great joy and consolation in thy love, because the bowels G4698 of the saints are refreshed by thee, brother.
    Phm 1:12
    Whom I have sent again: thou therefore receive him, that is, mine own bowels: G4698
    Phm 1:20
    Yea, brother, let me have joy of thee in the Lord: refresh my bowels G4698 in the Lord.
    1Jo 3:17
    But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels G4698of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
  12. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from OtherSheep in What do you think about "Judge" Rutherford?   
    Also, within months after suggesting that the League of Nations was like a political expression of the kingdom of God on earth, this was corrected and a stricter and more consistent separation from all organizations with political goals was maintained.
  13. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Alexa in What do you think about "Judge" Rutherford?   
    Another subcategory of this item should have been included:
    Rejection of Zionism and focus on spiritual instead of fleshly Israel
  14. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from OtherSheep in What do you think about "Judge" Rutherford?   
    I would agree. And I think this is more important than might think. Russell may have envisioned his associates to be from a very gentlemanly class, and appeared most comfortable around well-spoken, soft-spoken, deeply religious persons. In some ways he thought of the Bride class as very elite. Note what he anticipated in his first major publication, a 64 page booklet, "Object and Manner" (p.42):
    "No; the "little flock," -- the bride -- is a very select company. There will be so few taken from the present generation that they will not be much missed."
    The great crowd were a second-class group, and for a while were treated as second-class citizens, often criticized and sometimes insulted and always considered less spiritually-minded. But these were obviously humble persons who were sure of the primary truths and the rationality of the Watchtower's message. But they felt less worthy. (Even the context of the quote above reminded them that the 144,000 were granted their white robes but that the great crowd had to wash them.)  Of course, at the time -- and for the next 58 years -- they were still considered anointed, and were still going to heaven, just not as part of Christ's Bride. But their sense of humility and unworthiness helped them to understand and accept that earthly Paradise was held out for them as the most appropriate hope. For so many years, the teaching was that all Christians would be in heaven, and non-Christians would be resurrected to the earth. The quickness with which the change came was amazing, and is one of the reasons this doctrine is so often associated with "lightning" and "flashes of light."
    *** w85 3/1 p. 14 par. 12 Shedding Forth Light Amidst Earth’s Gloom ***
    These flashes of prophetic light prepared the ground for the historic discourse on “The Great Multitude,” given May 31, 1935, by the president of the Watch Tower Society, J. F. Rutherford, at the Washington, D.C., convention of Jehovah’s Witnesses. What a revelation of divine truth that was!
    *** w92 3/1 pp. 20-21 par. 17 The Day to Remember ***
    The brilliant flashes of spiritual light that came through The Watchtower in the 1920’s and 1930’s indicate that the gathering of the remnant of anointed ones was practically completed during that period. Those ‘washing their robes and making them white in the blood of the Lamb’ since then have a different joyful hope.
    *** w95 5/15 p. 20 par. 18 Part 1—Flashes of Light—Great and Small ***
    In 1935 a bright flash of light revealed that the great crowd mentioned at Revelation 7:9-17 was not a secondary heavenly class. It had been thought that the ones mentioned in those verses were some of the anointed who had not been fully faithful
    *** re chap. 20 p. 125 par. 17 A Multitudinous Great Crowd ***
    They were quick to appreciate the dazzling flash of divine light that emblazoned the theocratic firmament in 1935, at Jehovah’s due time.
    And many more!
     
  15. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from James Thomas Rook Jr. in What do you think about "Judge" Rutherford?   
    While at Bethel my table head shared a lot of really negative stories about Brother Rutherford. I had no idea if they were correct at the time, but I listened carefully to a lot of other brothers who knew Rutherford, and I even recorded several hours of interviews with older Bethelites and some of them volunteered information about him. These tapes were for use when I traveled to other congregations to give public talks, because they made giving a public talk very easy. I had a lot of material that I could not use without editing because two of them gave a much more negative view than the publications give. The brothers and sister interviewed were F.W.Franz, Grace DeCecca, Maxwell Friend, Sam Friend, and Bert Schroeder.
     
    But another side of Rutherford also shows up, not just in the interviews, but also in his own speeches and writing. Most of the brothers credit Rutherford as the one who promoted the changes made to doctrines single-handedly. He was fearless when he thought he was right. There were dozens of doctrinal changes made between 1927 and 1931, and a large number of those who were active in the organization decided to leave during that time period. But I believe that while he lost a majority for a while, he had an attitude that one brother likened to Judge Gideon, his all-time favorite Bible character. It didn't matter how many persons left the organization, if the change was the right thing to do. (Gideon went from 32,000 to 10,000 and after a final test ended up with only 300 faithful with whom he would fight the battle against Midian.)
     
    With that in mind he wanted to root out "creature worship" from the organization. This was his word for the "cult of Pastor Russell" wherein people wanted to dress like him, look like him, talk like him, carry his picture, name their kids after him, etc. Rutherford did not want such a thing for himself, and knew he was the person with the "faith" to get rid of it, even if it meant the majority of Bible Students would leave. It was in effect, the "sword of Jehovah and Rutherford."
     
    Also, there were very few progressive changes under Russell. Very early on they had already set a solid doctrinal course when it came to Trinity, Hell-fire, Immortal Soul, Ransom, Restitution, Salvation, Morality, Christian Character, but only a very few changes, except where these were forced upon them in the area of chronology. Rutherford, from the start, turned the Bible Students into a progressive organization that came to expect change, and that very soon would constantly looked forward positively to more changes. Naturally, he got a few things wrong, but I believe a majority of the changes reflected the Bible more accurately.
     
    For example, if we were to solely give Rutherford the credit for being the author of these changes, we'd have to admit that he got the following right:
    Getting rid of Pyramidology. Getting rid of Creature Worship Getting rid of almost all the complexities and methodologies of the old Barbour/Second Adventist chronology Ultimately turning a system that included 539 C.E. (not BCE) 1799, 1844, 1859, 1873, 1874, 1878, 1881, 1910, 1914, and 1915 into a simpler system that still included most of those dates but focused almost exclusively on just 3 or 4 dates. He put the organization on a road to a more consistent political neutrality including the view that flag salute was a form of idolatry helped true Christians see the folly of involvement in divisive wars and social movements helped Christians recognize political and religious hypocrisy He pushed for legal freedom of speech, and freedom of religion before the world was even ready for it, and these battles were hard-won. He also prompted true Christians seriously consider the relationship between national and religious holidays and their unchristian origins. He promoted the wider use of Jehovah's name Didn't hold back from using the "Old Testament" for life lessons Set an example as a strong personality, full of strong commitment, without mincing words, or pulling punches Prepared the congregations for persecution so that they were not surprised and not weakened Look at how well JWs handled persecution in many countries, not just Germany under Hitler Organized a very efficient organization in terms of ability to publicize and mobilize with the message Made use of all available technologies and venues to spread the word to large assemblies and audiences Organized for growth, envisioned and prepared for expansion Promoted practical, active Christian conduct and morality, but not the mere, quiet internalized form of worship Promoted a purpose and identity that helps Witnesses produce an international brotherhood that transcend class, nationality, and race. Lots of doctrinal specifics are left out to avoid too many off-topic doctrinal discussions, but even where disagreement exists, the bulk of most publications drove more attention to the Bible, Jesus, Jehovah, and Bible characters that we could learn from as examples in our daily lives  
    And from the perspective of "executive leadership" he was both serious and successful with these changes. The numbers he lost from Russell's time were gained back again and multiplied a couple of times over before Rutherford died. Outsiders have been impressed with the levels of activity, and participation, and therefore the levels of growth and conversion over the years. Ultimately, a very strong and powerful organization has been built that rivals the Mormons and the Seventh Day Adventists in terms of its current size, rate of growth and stability. And those religions, for the most part, had a bit of a head start in the 19th century. It outpaces most other religions in terms of publications distributed internally, and definitely outpaces every religion when it comes to publications distributed externally. Most of the foundation for the current organization was made workable under Rutherford's watch. This has created an excellent foundation for an international brotherhood where people show love and generosity and good works toward one another and which continues to bring teachings into closer harmony with the Bible.
     
  16. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Evacuated in "Grace" vs. "Undeserved Kindness"   
    Works better than this one
    " We praise Thee, Blessed Trinity. 
    With the Angels' sacred hymn,  "
  17. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Arauna in Is the brochure "Return to Jehovah" missing something?   
    MY dear brother - we are all imperfect humans.  I have stepped on so many peoples toes in my time as a Witness and many have hurt me.   Example: if your neighbor does something terrible to you - do you blame God?  Similarly in someone in the congregation - be it an elder or elders- treat you badly one does not blame Jehovah and leave the brotherhood.
    I am so outspoken and I do not hide my feelings (I am also a smarty-pants for a woman it is a no-no) - this is why I recognize the symptoms so fast in other people who have the same flaws!!) - So,  I do get into trouble too from those who do not understand me.
    But you know what I discovered - a good attitude regarding authority and a humble spirit opens up doors for you.   If one has a problem with any form of authority and you are slightly prideful - you are going to feel tremendous resentment and it will show while you are talking to them... and this is a dangerous place to be in.  Some witnesses come into the truth and they already have a problem with authority - even in the work place - and then they just expect unconditional love and acceptance from brothers - without having to change themselves.  We must always look to ourselves first because the rafter is in our own eyes.  We seem to think the problems are always with others.  Yes - some brothers can be arbitrary - and you can point this out to them - but the attitude with which you do this is very important.  I have found that one can say what you think to others - even unpleasant things - but the spirit in which you approach the matter and the attitude with which it is done is most important!  This change of attitude does not just help in the congregation it even helps one in the secular world! Also - try to comply - this shows a cooperative spirit.
    I would say that you need to look at your own attitudes: I am willing to be hurt by others to save the peace and still be part of Jehovah's organization because there is really nowhere else to go.... If brothers anger you - I have learnt to laugh and forgive quickly - without keeping resentment.  If one holds onto anger you are actually hurting yourself and your relationship with Jehovah.... Keep this in mind.   I have grown tremendously as a human being since I have adopted this way of thinking.   It is not easy to quickly forget the hurts others have inflicted but I try to make a practice of this.
    Jehovah too - He sees everything and he sees your sincerity.  If you show a kind spirit to all and forgive quickly - do you not think that others will notice?   If you have no problems with authority - it will show... but if you show any form of resentment and think you know better ..... this will show in your handling of the situation.... So think of the requirements as discipline from Jehovah - for us to work on our personalities and get it in line with his qualities.   
    Anyone can fall out anytime - so elders sometimes forget this - they may become self-confident and not trusting Jehovah enough to help them ... this may even be contributing to your stress..... but hang in there and go through the fire  to come out a better individual.  Suffering ALWAYS makes us better human beings because we can now put ourselves in someone else's shoes who may be facing the same problems.  If you later become an elder you will understand this kind of pain and not inflict it on others in the way you handle them.   Some elders have always had everything go very well with them.  But each person has to fight the fight until the end and keep their sincerity with Jehovah.... So fight the fight and improve you personality so Jehovah can use you later in a large capacity....
    Do not look to the short-term pain... look to the long-term goal of serving Jehovah with an improved personality and one who is happy to quickly conform and contribute positively to other's wellbeing... even if one has to make sacrifices of the self.  After all Jesus showed us the example of self-sacrificing love  - and this is the love that all of us are supposed to be following... to be quick to obey and slow to be hurt because of hurt feelings and our own importance.
    I have found that ego - and independent spirit  - is at the root of all problems - even Satan's - go think about that
    All my love to you and may your future be one with restored confidence in the love of Jehovah!
     
     
  18. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Anna in Is it Better to Hide a Serious Sin or Reveal It?   
    To answer the question about whether it is better to hide or reveal our own sins, it is better to confess before Jehovah and before the congregation. Everything done in the darkness will come to light. It's true that some sins can remain hidden for an entire lifetime, but is our own ego so important that we believe the congregation must continue to see the benefit of services we provide as an elder or ministerial servant? There is no reason for a person who has been guilty of a serious sin to think that the overall congregation is somehow benefiting so much from one's appointment to a "named" position, and that they would somehow need his talks or his shepherding. Confessing sins serves the purpose of a clean conscience with Jehovah, and indicates humility, and it indicates our faith that Jehovah sees the heart, whether or not the congregation would have ever known or not.
    The congregation needs various positions of responsibility, but not everyone needs to minister in the same way. Not everyone needs a "title." In fact, all Christians have the title of "minister" in the sense of being a "servant." All Christians can do some things and even many things that help our fellow brothers and sisters. The congregation is built up in this way when we do fine works for each other:
    (Hebrews 10:24, 25) 24 And let us consider one another so as to incite to love and fine works, 25 not forsaking our meeting together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you see the day drawing near.
    (Ephesians 4:11-16) 11 And he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers, 12 with a view to the readjustment of the holy ones, for ministerial work, to build up the body of the Christ, 13 until we all attain to the oneness of the faith and of the accurate knowledge of the Son of God, to being a full-grown man, attaining the measure of stature that belongs to the fullness of the Christ. 14 So we should no longer be children, tossed about as by waves and carried here and there by every wind of teaching by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in deceptive schemes. 15 But speaking the truth, let us by love grow up in all things into him who is the head, Christ. 16 From him all the body is harmoniously joined together and made to cooperate through every joint that gives what is needed. When each respective member functions properly, this contributes to the growth of the body as it builds itself up in love.
    Just a last thought, noting that much of what was true about elders is also true of ministerial servants.
    (1 Timothy 3:8-10) 8 Ministerial servants should likewise be serious, not double-tongued, not indulging in a lot of wine, not greedy of dishonest gain, 9 holding the sacred secret of the faith with a clean conscience. 10 Also, let these be tested as to fitness first; then let them serve as ministers, as they are free from accusation.
     
    This part is my own opinion, but I think we have to be judicious when it comes to confessing articles of faith, when that faith might be considered sin. For example what if you believed, five years ago, that "types and antitiypes" should not be taught as doctrines unless the Bible specifically and explicitly tells us to do this? Five years ago, this was apostasy, because it literally involved the rejection of hundreds of doctrines unique to Jehovah's Witnesses. Note:
    *** w86 4/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
    Approved association with Jehovah’s Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses.
    If one believed this in 1914, they would have had to wait for 100 years until this teaching was finally dropped, and it no longer constituted apostasy to reject it. (It was finally dropped in 2014.) But the article goes on to include several specific doctrines considered to be of prime importance:
    What do such beliefs include?
    . . . That 1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the heavens, as well as the time for Christ’s foretold presence. . . .
    If we do not confess this particular belief as an article of faith, should this be confessed to the elders? YES! Absolutely. But we can take it to the elders in the overall world-wide congregation, not the specific elders from our local congregation, and even potentially to the Governing Body, by sending it as correspondence through the appropriate Watch Tower Society channels. Why? Because individual congregation elders will respond differently. Some will disfellowship, some will say to keep quiet about it and wait on the organization. Some might begin questioning themselves. This might begin to cause divisions in the congregation. The most consistent answers will be sent from the Society headquarters, where the ins and outs of this topic are fairly well-known by many of those who handle correspondence.
     
     
     
  19. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Ann O'Maly in Auschwitz   
    Hahahaha, Allen. Anyone can colorize a black-and-white photo with a purplish tint or any tint you like, really. A genuine color version of that particular photo does not exist. Smh.
    And nobody here (Arauna) is denying the Holocaust, or that JWs/Bible Students were thrown into concentration camps, had to wear a purple triangle and were treated appallingly.
    What I am pointing out is that the image purporting to be JW detainees at Auschwitz is actually an image from Sachsenhausen and it is unknown who the prisoners were.
    Note the caption to the photo on this webpage: http://ww2today.com/13-december-1944-sachsenhausen-concentration-camp-new-arrivals.
    They could be anybody - with an added observation that, as JW Insider mentioned, one of them was wearing a double triangle of different colors, one of them shaded considerably darker than the triangles the others are wearing.
    In fact, if we put a color picture of an original uniform with purple JW badge into b&w, we get this:

    See how dark the purple appears in monochrome. The prisoners' triangles in the OP image were a much lighter shade.
    Uniform photo source: http://www.alst.org/pages-us/primary-documents/purple-triangles.html
     
  20. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Ann O'Maly in Auschwitz   
    I think it is very, very wrong to denigrate the great sacrifices that Jehovah's Witnesses made for their faith during the regimes in Germany, etc, during WWII. But we should still be careful about making use of whatever pictures we find, and trying to associate them with the Witnesses. It seems like it might even be Witnesses in some cases who have misused pictures of miniature Bibles they find online, and then claim that they were smuggled by JWs into the concentration camps. Anything is possible, but sometimes this borders on the same idea behind peddling artifacts of the martyrs during the "dark" and/or medieval ages.
    I don't know anything about this picture, but I've seen it before and I am pretty sure it wasn't the purple triangle that was given to those who identified as Bible Students, Earnest Bible Students and Jehovah's Witnesses. (I have heard from other Witnesses that these weren't always the same groups in the 1940's. Many of the ones who suffered persecution and even death rejected Brother Rutherford and the Watch Tower Society. I haven't checked out this claim yet, but put it here in case anyone has.)
    The reason I say that this unlikely to be a purple triangle is that you can tell something about a color from its "value" meaning its place on a gray scale. Google is also good at this and a search on the photo returns " Best guess for this image: pink triangle concentration camp " Additional searches also link it with Sachsenhausen, not Auschwitz, as Ann has already pointed out.
    Google probably guesses "pink" either because the value of the gray is much closer to the light stripe on the prison uniform and purple was much closer to the dark stripe, and it probably has been associated with "pink triangle" websites for a while. This would mean that these men were more likely homosexuals, although that color [pink] was also given to pedophiles and sex offenders of all stripes. There is another picture of a man standing just to the right of where the currently rightmost man is in this picture, who has an extra superimposed triangle that likely indicates that he is a Jewish homosexual. This also gives us evidence of the the gray value for yellow which shows up as lighter than the pink, which is as expected if the two colors were pink and yellow, and this provides even more evidence that the picture above is the pink triangle.
    Note some of the related pictures here:
    http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Nazi_concentration_camp_badge
     
  21. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from HollyW in Is it Better to Hide a Serious Sin or Reveal It?   
    To answer the question about whether it is better to hide or reveal our own sins, it is better to confess before Jehovah and before the congregation. Everything done in the darkness will come to light. It's true that some sins can remain hidden for an entire lifetime, but is our own ego so important that we believe the congregation must continue to see the benefit of services we provide as an elder or ministerial servant? There is no reason for a person who has been guilty of a serious sin to think that the overall congregation is somehow benefiting so much from one's appointment to a "named" position, and that they would somehow need his talks or his shepherding. Confessing sins serves the purpose of a clean conscience with Jehovah, and indicates humility, and it indicates our faith that Jehovah sees the heart, whether or not the congregation would have ever known or not.
    The congregation needs various positions of responsibility, but not everyone needs to minister in the same way. Not everyone needs a "title." In fact, all Christians have the title of "minister" in the sense of being a "servant." All Christians can do some things and even many things that help our fellow brothers and sisters. The congregation is built up in this way when we do fine works for each other:
    (Hebrews 10:24, 25) 24 And let us consider one another so as to incite to love and fine works, 25 not forsaking our meeting together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you see the day drawing near.
    (Ephesians 4:11-16) 11 And he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers, 12 with a view to the readjustment of the holy ones, for ministerial work, to build up the body of the Christ, 13 until we all attain to the oneness of the faith and of the accurate knowledge of the Son of God, to being a full-grown man, attaining the measure of stature that belongs to the fullness of the Christ. 14 So we should no longer be children, tossed about as by waves and carried here and there by every wind of teaching by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in deceptive schemes. 15 But speaking the truth, let us by love grow up in all things into him who is the head, Christ. 16 From him all the body is harmoniously joined together and made to cooperate through every joint that gives what is needed. When each respective member functions properly, this contributes to the growth of the body as it builds itself up in love.
    Just a last thought, noting that much of what was true about elders is also true of ministerial servants.
    (1 Timothy 3:8-10) 8 Ministerial servants should likewise be serious, not double-tongued, not indulging in a lot of wine, not greedy of dishonest gain, 9 holding the sacred secret of the faith with a clean conscience. 10 Also, let these be tested as to fitness first; then let them serve as ministers, as they are free from accusation.
     
    This part is my own opinion, but I think we have to be judicious when it comes to confessing articles of faith, when that faith might be considered sin. For example what if you believed, five years ago, that "types and antitiypes" should not be taught as doctrines unless the Bible specifically and explicitly tells us to do this? Five years ago, this was apostasy, because it literally involved the rejection of hundreds of doctrines unique to Jehovah's Witnesses. Note:
    *** w86 4/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
    Approved association with Jehovah’s Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses.
    If one believed this in 1914, they would have had to wait for 100 years until this teaching was finally dropped, and it no longer constituted apostasy to reject it. (It was finally dropped in 2014.) But the article goes on to include several specific doctrines considered to be of prime importance:
    What do such beliefs include?
    . . . That 1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the heavens, as well as the time for Christ’s foretold presence. . . .
    If we do not confess this particular belief as an article of faith, should this be confessed to the elders? YES! Absolutely. But we can take it to the elders in the overall world-wide congregation, not the specific elders from our local congregation, and even potentially to the Governing Body, by sending it as correspondence through the appropriate Watch Tower Society channels. Why? Because individual congregation elders will respond differently. Some will disfellowship, some will say to keep quiet about it and wait on the organization. Some might begin questioning themselves. This might begin to cause divisions in the congregation. The most consistent answers will be sent from the Society headquarters, where the ins and outs of this topic are fairly well-known by many of those who handle correspondence.
     
     
     
  22. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Arauna in Auschwitz   
    Goodness!  One has to have a magnifying glass to add a positive comment to a picture put in good faith on this forum?
    My comment still stands -  I am happy to be associated with those who preferred to be incarcerated than fight in war - whatever the smaller details of the triangle in the picture!
  23. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Evacuated in The timing of Jesus' 2nd Coming   
    Same here! Glad to find something we can agree on again!
  24. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Evacuated in The timing of Jesus' 2nd Coming   
    Paul's words from 1Thess. 5:4 are the most significant in this thread for me.
  25. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from OtherSheep in The timing of Jesus' 2nd Coming   
    OK, here's the second half of comments about the subject of "Gentile Times" and "1914" from the Appendix of the book "What Does the Bible Really Teach?" Excerpts quoted from the book are put in bold:
    In the Bible, trees are sometimes used to represent rulership. (Ezekiel 17:22-24; 31:2-5) So the chopping down of the symbolic tree represents how God’s rulership, as expressed through the kings at Jerusalem, would be interrupted. However, the vision served notice that this ‘trampling of Jerusalem’ would be temporary—a period of “seven times.” How long a period is that? True, trees sometimes represent rulership, although in this case, Daniel 4 says it represented the King himself, and therefore also his rulership. It does not say that there is some kind of a second fulfillment of any kind, but points several times to the fact that it was fulfilled in the person of Nebuchadnezzar himself.
    So, while we can't completely discount the possibility of a second fulfillment, the chopping down of the tree does not directly represent God's rulership for the following reasons. The fulfillment includes a generic truth, which would apply to Jehovah's sovereignty over even the wicked rulers of the earth. Nothing in that general truth points specifically to "God's kingdom" or the "Messianic Kingdom" even if they can be included. Also, Nebuchadnezzar was a Gentile, so it's odd that his interrupted Gentile rulership would represent the interruption of the Messianic rulership. It's odd that his restoration to power would somehow represent the time when Jesus Christ was restored to the Messianic kingdom. Also, of course, he was a vicious, beastly ruler, and an enemy of God's kingdom, and he was punished with insanity -- brought low -- for his haughtiness. Jesus was neither vicious, beastly, or an enemy of God's kingdom, and Jesus was never punished with insanity for his haughtiness.
    Creating a correspondence between Jesus and Nebuchadnezzar is therefore much the same as if we took a narrative about Judas Iscariot and said that it had application to Jesus Christ because both hanged from a tree, and both had the number "30" surrounding an important event of their lives:  30 pieces of silver, the price of a slave (Exodus 21:32), and Jesus was 30 years of age at baptism when he gave humbled himself as a "slave" of his Father. The numbers are coincidental, but even if the numbers could be construed into some schematic doctrine, we should still reject any prophetic correspondence between Jesus and Judas Iscariot.
    Revelation 12:6, 14 indicates that three and a half times equal “1,260 days.” “Seven times” would therefore last twice as long, or 2,520 days. But the Gentile nations did not stop ‘trampling’ on God’s rulership a mere 2,520 days after Jerusalem’s fall. Evidently, then, this prophecy covers a much longer period of time. On the basis of Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6, which speak of “a day for a year,” the “seven times” would cover 2,520 years. Note that the same point made in Revelation 12:6,14 can be made from Revelation 11:2,3. We can be pretty sure, however, that the Watchtower will never allow the juxtaposition of Luke 21:24 and Revelation 11:2,3 in the same article. (For reasons pointed out in the first half of the comments on the "Bible Teach" Appendix.)
    But it should still be noted that the Watchtower is not consistent when the article says that the time period of the 7 times would be twice as long as the time period for 3 and 1/2 times. Those 3.5 times are actually considered to be a literal 1,260 days, while the 7 times are considered to be about 920,430 days. (7 x 360 x 365.25) So Daniel's time period is not just twice as long as Revelation's; it's 730.5 times longer. 
    Also note that there is no reason to use a day-for-a-year here. The Watchtower doesn't do it with the 1,260 days in any of the places that this period is mentioned in Revelation -- even though one of the those places is identified in Revelation itself as the length of the Gentile Times. The Watchtower does not even use the 1,260 days from Daniel 12 to mean years, nor the 1,290 days of Daniel 12:11, etc. The day-for-a-year formula is not really a Bible rule anyway. It's used in a couple places when the Bible says it is being used. There is no reason to use it if the Bible doesn't say to use it. If it were really some kind of a rule, then why wouldn't the Watchtower use it for the 1,260 days? In fact, there are other similar formulaic rules that are also used. Daniel was elsewhere asked to use a multiple of 7 years for every year when he turned Jeremiah's 70 years into 70 weeks of years. In other types of measurements (justice, forgiveness, forbearance) multiples of 7 and 11 and 2 are also used. (e.g. not 7 times, but 77 times; i.e., 7x11=77)
    The 2,520 years began in October 607 B.C.E., when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians and the Davidic king was taken off his throne. The period ended in October 1914. At that time, “the appointed times of the nations” ended, and Jesus Christ was installed as God’s heavenly King.—Psalm 2:1-6; Daniel 7:13, 14. Not only did Jerusalem not fall in 607 BCE, it was not even in October. And this is admitted in the book Insight on the Scriptures:
    *** it-1 p. 812 Fast ***    “The fast of the fourth month” apparently commemorated the breaching of Jerusalem’s walls by the Babylonians on Tammuz 9, 607 B.C.E. (2Ki 25:2-4; Jer 52:5-7) (2) It was in the fifth Jewish month Ab that the temple was destroyed, and evidently “the fast of the fifth month” was held as a reminder of this event. (2Ki 25:8, 9; Jer 52:12, 13) The fifth month is typically mid-July to mid-August. So it's not just off by 20 years, it's also off by an extra two months for good measure.
    And more than that, Jesus said the Gentile Times would start after 33 CE. If they started with the events of 66 CE, as Jesus indicated when he spoke of Jerusalem being surrounded by encamped armies and the people being trampled then these events would run up to about 70 CE when Jesus said: "They will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you." This fits better with the statement in Revelation 11:2,3 that these Gentile Times would run for 1,260 days or 42 months. (3 and 1/2 times).
    Just as Jesus predicted, his “presence” as heavenly King has been marked by dramatic world developments—war, famine, earthquakes, pestilences. (Matthew 24:3-8; Luke 21:11) Such developments bear powerful testimony to the fact that 1914 indeed marked the birth of God’s heavenly Kingdom and the beginning of “the last days” of this present wicked system of things.—2 Timothy 3:1-5. Jesus actually said almost the opposite. He predicted that if people used wars and rumors of wars and famines and earthquakes as "the sign" that they would be misled, because these were not signs of the end. They were just things that must continue to take place, but cannot be thought of as signs. It's the idea of the whole chapter that they could not figure out the parousia (presence) with a sign, because it would come as a surprise at any time. Wars and earthquakes would happen, but these events would mislead people if they didn't listen to Jesus' words. Note:
    (Matthew 24:3-8) . . .what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” 4 In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for these things must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.
    If these were NOT the sign, then what was? Simple The sign of his presence comes after the tribulation of those days. There is no warning sign before the tribulation. That's why they needed to stay alert, that's why the presence would be a surprise, just as when the flood surprised people in the days of Noah who were living their day-to-day lives as if there was "peace and security." This fits all the other scriptures in the Bible about that presence.
    (Matthew 24:29,30) “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven,
    2 Timothy 3:1-5 shows that Paul understood that the last days had already begun in the first century CE. The same idea is made in Acts, Hebrews, 1 & 2 Peter, and Jude. This is another way in which the Bible contradicts the claims about 1914.
    There is plenty more on the subject, but that's the end of the commentary critiquing the Appendix article in the Bible Teach book.
     
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