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JW Insider

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  1. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Melinda Mills in ACTS OF GOD   
    Melinda Mills gave excellent choices. For the same reasons she gave I would consider 134 "See Yourself When All Is New" and 121 "Encourage One Another."
    Some ideas that can be worked into the outline might include Pliny's report on Vesuvius and a reminder that this happened during the very time that people were first reading Hebrews 10:24,25 about meeting together to encourage one another (which is the basis for song 121). Also up until the time of Christ's message so many people thought that all natural disasters were "acts of God." Imagine how many people would have thought that the explosion/volcano/earthquake of Vesuvius was Armageddon. It obliterated the summer homes of the elite from Rome. The sky darkened over much of Italy including Rome. Surely Rome would be next because this would have been considered a judgment by God. Jerusalem had just been destroyed in the same decade, SURELY this act of God was not the judgment on Rome! Yet Jesus had said that you will hear of earthquakes and wars, but NOT to get overly excited about the idea that it meant the end.
    (Matthew 24:6-8) . . .for these things must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.
    (Matthew 24:29) 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
    Imagine how this event would have become fodder for false prophets, who might teach that this was the end, that this was the sky darkening and the moon not giving its light. Imagine how it might have been used as a way to mislead the chosen ones to stay in hiding or fear, rather than preach the good news. Yet Jesus said the end is NOT yet, these things were just a beginning.
    It's a way to help an audience imagine the words of the Scriptures in a more personal way when we also can imagine what was going through the minds of the people in the first century. Besides Vesuvius, the way that the first century audience of Jesus thought about these things as judgments is interesting. Jesus gave the example of Pilate's political terrorism, and the Tower at Siloam, and said that such things were not directly brought about by sin or judgements on the specific people killed, but were merely 'time and unforeseen occurrence,' yet we can still use them to take account of our lives knowing that the end can come for any of us at any time.
    (Luke 13:1-5) 13 At that time some who were present reported to him about the Gal·i·leʹans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 In reply he said to them: “Do you think that those Gal·i·leʹans were worse sinners than all other Gal·i·leʹans because they have suffered these things? 3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise be destroyed. 4 Or those 18 on whom the tower in Si·loʹam fell, killing them—do you think that they had greater guilt than all other men who live in Jerusalem? 5 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all be destroyed, as they were.”
    (Luke 12:18-21) 18 Then he said, ‘I will do this: I will tear down my storehouses and build bigger ones, and there I will gather all my grain and all my goods, 19 and I will say to myself: “You have many good things stored up for many years; take it easy, eat, drink, enjoy yourself.”’ 20 But God said to him, ‘Unreasonable one, this night they are demanding your life from you. Who, then, is to have the things you stored up?’ 21 So it goes with the man who stores up treasure for himself but is not rich toward God.”
     
     
  2. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Melinda Mills in ACTS OF GOD   
    Agree there is not a neat fit.  Some food for thought in these excerpts. Of course I am a sister and have never seen a manuscript but I would still like to help.
     
    *** w15 6/15 pp. 6-7 pars. 15-16 Christ—The Power of God ***
    15 The Source of Christ’s power is Jehovah himself, so we have reason to believe that Almighty God is fully capable of controlling the forces of nature. Consider a few examples. Before the Flood, Jehovah stated: “In just seven days, I will make it rain on the earth for 40 days and 40 nights.” (Gen. 7:4) Similarly, at Exodus 14:21, we read: “Jehovah drove the sea back with a strong east wind.” And we read at Jonah 1:4: “Jehovah hurled a strong wind at the sea, and there was such a violent storm on the sea that the ship was about to be wrecked.” It is encouraging to know that Jehovah can control the elements. Clearly, planet Earth’s future is in good hands.
    16 How reassuring it is to contemplate the awesome power of our Creator and his “master worker.” When their full attention is directed toward the earth for the 1,000 years, all people will dwell in security. Terrifying natural disasters will be a thing of the past. There will be no reason to fear being harmed by typhoons, tsunamis, volcanoes, or earthquakes in the new world. How wonderful it is to think of the time when no natural forces will kill or maim, for “the tent of God [will be] with mankind”! (Rev. 21:3, 4) We can be assured that the power of God exercised through Christ will control the forces of nature during the Millennium.   End quote
    If in the Talk you use the scripture at Revelation 21:3,4 you can use the Song, “All Things New” No.14 to stress they will be no more dying (due to natural disasters among other things).
    =======
    Alternatively, if you approach it from the standpoint of the use of Jehovah’s power you can use Song No.1 speaks of Jehovah’s “power so great; More your great day will still relate”.
    If you think of Job 38 and the use of the storehouses of snow and hail you can stress destructive forces which Jehovah will use in the future.
     
    *** w05 11/15 p. 14 Wonders of Creation Exalt Jehovah ***
    Who Has Storehouses of Snow and Hail?
    No man has escorted either light or darkness to its home or has entered the storehouses of snow and hail that God keeps back for “the day of fight and war.” (Job 38:19-23) When Jehovah used hail against his foes at Gibeon, “there were more who died from the hailstones than those whom the sons of Israel killed with the sword.” (Joshua 10:11) He may use hailstones of undisclosed size to destroy wicked humans led by Gog, or Satan.—Ezekiel 38:18, 22.
    Egg-size hailstones killed 25 people and injured 200 others in central Henan Province, China, in July 2002. Regarding a hailstorm in 1545, Italian sculptor Benvenuto Cellini wrote: “We were one day distant from Lyons . . . when the heavens began to thunder with sharp rattling claps. . . . After the thunder the heavens made a noise so great and horrible that I thought the last day had come; so I reined in for a moment, while a shower of hail began to fall without a drop of water. . . . The hail now grew to the size of big lemons. . . . The storm raged for some while, but at last it stopped . . . We showed our scratches and bruises to each other; but about a mile farther on we came upon a scene of devastation which surpassed what we had suffered, and defies description. All the trees were stripped of their leaves and shattered; the beasts in the field lay dead; many of the herdsmen had also been killed; we observed large quantities of hailstones which could not have been grasped with two hands.”—Autobiography (Book II, 50), Harvard Classics, Volume 31, pages 352-3.
    What will happen when Jehovah opens his storehouses of snow and hail against his enemies? They cannot possibly survive when snow or hail is used to carry out his will.  End quote
     
    Of course Jehovah and his son Christ Jesus can harness all of the natural elements and use them to suit his purpose. Why they become unruly at times we don’t exactly know, as Jesus himself was in danger once in a boat on the sea of Galilee. But he showed power over these forces and saved himself and the disciples.
    Power in nature and in wild creatures also bring glory to Jehovah as they are his creation and reflect his power.
    See also Song No. 131 –“ Provider of Escape”;  Song No. 15 - Creation Reveals Jehovah’s Glory”
  3. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from JAMMY in The Electronic Site for Elders   
    Elders are supposed to keep congregational matters private and confidential, or just between themselves and other elders or specific people who need to know -- until announced to the whole congregation. But yes, of course, it does happen that elder's wives will know things even before the elders do. It shouldn't happen though, and there should be consequences. There is plenty of scriptural counsel against being a "gossip" or a "busybody," and elders should have exemplary families.
  4. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from James Thomas Rook Jr. in The Watchtower & The Cigarette Company   
    (Micah 4:13) 13 Get up and thresh, O daughter of Zion; For I will change your horns into iron, And I will change your hooves into copper, And you will pulverize many peoples. You will devote their dishonest profit to Jehovah, And their resources to the true Lord of the whole earth.”
    Any questions?
  5. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from JAMMY in A prisoner was alone baptized by a brother in a little water - tub, how nice ❤ Welcome to the best worldwide organization of Brotherhood. The Heaven is so happy about you, yes ;o)   
    The "prison ministry" was always one of the most refreshing while I was pioneering. It is so different from most other types, yet you see the differences in people's lives. We worked with two major prisons. One was a high security prison and one was a minimum security prison. The high-security was a bit more scary because they let you in and they slammed the gate shut behind you. We had a Prison ID card where we also signed a waiver accepting risk in case we were caught up in violence. But the changes in people's lives was so evident from study to study -- and their questions are often deeper than the average householder. There is also a "competition" with other prison outreach ministries from other religions and a lot more questions about the Muslim religion. We often got questions we had to look up and get back the next week to answer. 
    The minimum security prisons are quite different. The prisoners could literally escape and walk off the premises if they wanted to. (But they'd still have to serve their time all over again if caught.) We had a choice between using an "interfaith" building that was shared by other religions, but we often took over the interest of the other religious groups because we had interesting and lively discussions while some of the other groups often did no more than pray with them, sometimes silently. At first I wouldn't use the interfaith building, but the only other choice was the crowded visitors' room where the women/wives/girlfriends would visit other men in the room and try to get away with all kinds of activities that distracted greatly from the Bible study.
  6. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from HollyW in The Electronic Site for Elders   
    Elders are supposed to keep congregational matters private and confidential, or just between themselves and other elders or specific people who need to know -- until announced to the whole congregation. But yes, of course, it does happen that elder's wives will know things even before the elders do. It shouldn't happen though, and there should be consequences. There is plenty of scriptural counsel against being a "gossip" or a "busybody," and elders should have exemplary families.
  7. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from SuzA in A prisoner was alone baptized by a brother in a little water - tub, how nice ❤ Welcome to the best worldwide organization of Brotherhood. The Heaven is so happy about you, yes ;o)   
    The "prison ministry" was always one of the most refreshing while I was pioneering. It is so different from most other types, yet you see the differences in people's lives. We worked with two major prisons. One was a high security prison and one was a minimum security prison. The high-security was a bit more scary because they let you in and they slammed the gate shut behind you. We had a Prison ID card where we also signed a waiver accepting risk in case we were caught up in violence. But the changes in people's lives was so evident from study to study -- and their questions are often deeper than the average householder. There is also a "competition" with other prison outreach ministries from other religions and a lot more questions about the Muslim religion. We often got questions we had to look up and get back the next week to answer. 
    The minimum security prisons are quite different. The prisoners could literally escape and walk off the premises if they wanted to. (But they'd still have to serve their time all over again if caught.) We had a choice between using an "interfaith" building that was shared by other religions, but we often took over the interest of the other religious groups because we had interesting and lively discussions while some of the other groups often did no more than pray with them, sometimes silently. At first I wouldn't use the interfaith building, but the only other choice was the crowded visitors' room where the women/wives/girlfriends would visit other men in the room and try to get away with all kinds of activities that distracted greatly from the Bible study.
  8. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from JaniceM in A prisoner was alone baptized by a brother in a little water - tub, how nice ❤ Welcome to the best worldwide organization of Brotherhood. The Heaven is so happy about you, yes ;o)   
    The "prison ministry" was always one of the most refreshing while I was pioneering. It is so different from most other types, yet you see the differences in people's lives. We worked with two major prisons. One was a high security prison and one was a minimum security prison. The high-security was a bit more scary because they let you in and they slammed the gate shut behind you. We had a Prison ID card where we also signed a waiver accepting risk in case we were caught up in violence. But the changes in people's lives was so evident from study to study -- and their questions are often deeper than the average householder. There is also a "competition" with other prison outreach ministries from other religions and a lot more questions about the Muslim religion. We often got questions we had to look up and get back the next week to answer. 
    The minimum security prisons are quite different. The prisoners could literally escape and walk off the premises if they wanted to. (But they'd still have to serve their time all over again if caught.) We had a choice between using an "interfaith" building that was shared by other religions, but we often took over the interest of the other religious groups because we had interesting and lively discussions while some of the other groups often did no more than pray with them, sometimes silently. At first I wouldn't use the interfaith building, but the only other choice was the crowded visitors' room where the women/wives/girlfriends would visit other men in the room and try to get away with all kinds of activities that distracted greatly from the Bible study.
  9. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to HollyW in Did Jewish Scribes Remove the Name of God from the Greek New Testament Manuscripts?   
    The WTS has two opposing views on the Bible’s reliability.

    While on the one hand they maintain that the Bible manuscripts have unquestionably come down to us exactly as God had inspired them to be written; on the other hand they say the NT manuscripts have been tampered with in “one of the saddest and most reprehensible” ways, by removing “Jehovah” from them……which might make them wonder what other parts were tampered with. 

    Bible reliability:
     
      Awake, 6/11/1972: Almighty God himself has unquestionably had a hand in seeing that his Word has been preserved so faithfully all these years. Any way one looks at it, the overall reliability of the Bible text is beyond question.

    Road to Paradise tract, pg. 3: HAS NOT THE HOLY BIBLE BEEN TAMPERED WITH? Almighty God could by no means allow such a thing……... When our present-day Bible is compared with such old manuscripts, it becomes quite clear that the text we have today is the same as that which God inspired his ancient servants to write.

    Insight-1 p.321: Copies—Hebrew or Greek—Soon after the originals were written, manuscript copies began to be produced. The copyists exercised great care to transmit the text accurately; the Masoretes counted even the letters that they copied. 

    Insight-1 p.448: The available evidence convincingly demonstrates the remarkable accuracy and care that distinguished the copying of the Bible books, resulting in the preservation of their internal integrity. 

    Insight-2 p.313: What assurance is there that the Bible has not been changed? Despite the care exercised by copyists of Bible manuscripts, a number of small scribal errors and alterations crept into the text. On the whole, these are insignificant and have no bearing on the Bible’s general integrity. They have been detected and corrected by means of careful scholastic collation or critical comparison of the many extant manuscripts and ancient versions. NWT introduction: Since the Bible sets for the sacred will of the Sovereign Lord of the universe, it would be a great indignity, indeed an affront to his majesty and authority, to omit or hide his unique divine name.

    Bible tampered with:
     
      Close to Jehovah, p.8: God’s personal name has been removed from countless Bible translations and replaced with titles, such as “Lord” and “God”. This is one of the saddest and most reprehensible things that has been done in the name of religion.

    Insight-2 p.10: Why, then, is the name absent from the extant manuscripts of the Christian Greek Scriptures or so-called New Testament? Evidently because by the time those extant copies were made (from the third century C.E. onward) the original text of the writings of the apostles and disciples had been altered. Thus later copyists undoubtedly replaced the divine name in Tetragrammaton form with Ky′ri·os and The·os′. 

    Insight-1 p.324: Eventually, in most translations of the Bible the divine name was completely replaced by expressions such as “Lord” and “God.” It is noteworthy that only the most vital name of all—Jehovah—was tampered with; other Bible names were not.

    Watchtower 10/1/1997 p.20: Show discernment in the selection of the Bible you use. (Proverbs 19:8) If a translation is not honest about the identity of God himself—removing his name from his inspired Word on whatever pretext—might the translators also have tampered with other parts of the Bible text?
  10. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Ann O'Maly in God's Kingdom Rules   
    Really? *Runs off to look* Holy blunders! You're right! 
    I think so too. It was poorly worded. It would have been better phrased, "The 2,520 years began in October 607 B.C.E., when  after Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians and the Davidic king was taken off his throne."
    Or better yet, insert the real year (587 B.C.E.) ... and delete the '2,520 year' part. But that's another discussion. 
    The October thing is to do with Gedaliah's assassination in the 7th month (September/October) and when the remaining Jews fled to Egypt. Russell and Barbour maintained right from the beginning that the '70 years' related to the period when the land was 'desolate, without an inhabitant' and that only happened, according to their interpretation, once the remnant Jews fled to Egypt.
    Of course, as we know, Jeremiah's '70 years' related to the nations' servitude to Babylon which began long before Jerusalem's destruction. Not only that, but according to Ezekiel, there were still people living in Jerusalem's ruins in December:
    Ezekiel 33:21 - At length in the 12th year, in the tenth month, on the fifth day of the month of our exile, a man who had escaped from Jerusalem came to me and said: “The city has been struck down!”
    Ezekiel 33:23-29 - Then the word of Jehovah came to me, saying: 24 “Son of man, the inhabitants of these ruins are saying concerning the land of Israel, ‘Abraham was just one man, and yet he took possession of the land. But we are many; surely the land has been given to us as a possession.’
    25 “Therefore say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “You are eating food with the blood, and you lift up your eyes to your disgusting idols, and you keep shedding blood. So why should you possess the land? 26 You have relied on your sword, you engage in detestable practices, and each of you has defiled his neighbor’s wife. So why should you possess the land?”’
    27 “This is what you should say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “As surely as I am alive, those living in the ruins will fall by the sword; those in the open field, I will give as food to the wild beasts; and those in the strongholds and the caves will die by disease. 28 I will make the land an utterly desolate wasteland, and its arrogant pride will be brought to an end, and the mountains of Israel will be desolated, with no one passing through. 29 And they will have to know that I am Jehovah when I make the land an utterly desolate wasteland because of all the detestable things that they have done.”’
     
  11. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Ann O'Maly in Did Jewish Scribes Remove the Name of God from the Greek New Testament Manuscripts?   
    At this point it only shows that some modern translators of Romans 10:9 thought that Jesus is Jehovah. Romans 10:9 does not say the equivalent of haAdohn (THE Lord) in the Greek text. I am bringing these up to show that it is a mistake to rely on the "J Docs" (Hebrew versions) without recognizing what they are. They were produced for missionary purposes. In other words, they were produced for teaching the concept that the NT and OT could be connected in a way that Jewish readers should be able to see more clearly if the terms for Lord and God were replaced with "YHWH" or "the Name" or "Jehovah" etc.
    When early missionaries went to the Native American tribes ("Indians") many of them in the 1600's and 1700's also had the concept that they would more easily understand the concept of the Lord Jesus of the NT being the same as the Lord Jehovah.of the OT. In fact, America was still seen as a "Promised Land" with native Americans thought of as related to the "lost tribes of Israel." This was not just a Mormon concept, but was also believed by many of the Puritans (pilgrims) who landed on Plymouth Rock. It's not surprising then that early native American translations also added in the term "Jehovah" to the NT. Note:
    Choctaw version translated in 1949 by Cyrus Byington, a missionary from Massachusetts, says at John 20:28:
    Chan [John] 20:28 Toma [Thomas] said to him "My Lord and My Chihowa! [Jehowa]"
    A Mohawk translation says the following in John 1:1: 
    "The Logos was with Yehovah. In fact, the Logos was Yehovah."
     
  12. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Ann O'Maly in Did Jewish Scribes Remove the Name of God from the Greek New Testament Manuscripts?   
    There is a lot of readily available research on this topic already online. As I began to join in, I also realized that I might be repeating information that has already come up in other questions and topics on this forum.
    I'll start with the J docs that I arbitrarily assigned to Category #4. ,
    The J Docs initially referred to about 19 different Hebrew translations (from Greek to "modern" Hebrew) numbered J1, J2, J3, etc, up to J19. A few more have now been added to the 1985 Reference NWT, but these include even more modern non-Hebrew translations that use a form of "Jehovah" in the NT.
    From the standpoint of how the Greek Scriptures (NT) should be translated into English (or any other language) the "J Docs" are meaningless. I think that several of us have misinterpreted their importance. These have nothing to do with what the ancient Greek texts said or meant. They are not old texts from the viewpoint of the Scriptures. They are "modern" texts. (J2 is the oldest from about 100 years before Columbus and the next oldest J7 is from about 100 years after Columbus. The rest are mostly from the 1800s through the late 1900's).
    They are modern Hebrew translations of the New Testament. They were sometimes simply the work of biased Trinitarian missionaries who wanted to create a Christian ministry to Jewish speakers of Hebrew. They added the divine name in the places in the NT where they thought these verses should show a direct connection between the God/Lord of the OT and the God/Lord of the NT. They referred to God as YHWH even in cases where the NT was not quoting the OT. The problem is that the Trinitarian bias allowed these "translators" to pick several cases where even Jesus as Lord is directly connected to Jehovah as Lord.
    Note this information about J18.  The 1969 edition of the Kingdom Interlinear Translation says:
    Our old NWT Bibles (1950, 1951, 1963) used to include a statement about them altogether like this:
    All together, the appearances of the sacred Tetragrammaton in the 19 Hebrew versions to which we have had access total up to 307 distinct occurrences."
    But we didn't count all of the "distinct occurrences." There are over 100 additional distinct occurrences that we didn't count because we couldn't use them. Just a few examples will show why. This has already been started on other sites that I copy from below. They include HollyW's examples:
    1 Corinth. 12:3 in J14
    "...no one can say "Jesus is Lord (יהוה), except by the Holy Spirit."
    1 Thess. 4:16,17 in J7,8,13,14,24
    2 Timothy 1:18 in J7,8,13,14,16,17,18,22,23,24
    Hebrews 1:10 in J8 in which Jehovah addresses the Son using the Divine Name.
    1 Peter 2:3 in J13, J14
    1 Peter 3:15 in J7
    J20 (Concordance to the Greek Testament) cites יהוה at both 1 Peter 2:3 and 1 Peter 3:15.
    Revelation 16:5 in J7,8,13,14,16
    Romans 10:9 in J12-14, 16-18, 22
    Acts 26:14,15 in J17,J18
    "'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?' But I said, 'Who are you Lord?" And the Lord (haAdohn - Jehovah God) said, 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.'"
    [Several places in the J Docs even name the Holy Spirit as YHWH.]
     
  13. Thanks
    JW Insider got a reaction from Juan Rivera in God's Kingdom Rules   
    Whoops!
    Maybe what I meant to remember was that he was never "disfellowshipped" which means that technically he is not "officially" an "apo-state." I see that his experience says nothing of being DF'd, but then again, I've seen people DF'd for less.
    Everything he says about his discussions with Albert Schroeder and John Albu "rings true," perfectly. (John Albu was a brother in NYC, but not a Bethelite) I was put in contact with Albu for access to some of his books and his expertise for research projects.
    Alan says:
    I have believed the same thing, but never knew for sure. I think the general outline of that 1981 book was to be prepared from a couple of older Watchtowers with updates meant to specifically answer new questions raised about Ptolemy's canon and several other sources that Carl Olof Jonsson had written about. I remember that Bert Schroeder, Gene Smalley and others were angry about COJ's manuscript but wouldn't attempt to answer it. It got passed around like a hot potato around the Writing Department for years. Finally, Fred Rusk (the brother who gave my wedding talk) got it as an assignment to produce a Watchtower article in 1980. Rusk knew that the best researchers in-house at the time were Napolitano&Lengtat but he didn't like them because they had been friends with Ray Franz and had helped work on the Aid Book. He let it sit in his office for several months. I had a very strong feeling that it would end up being turned into an assignment for John Albu. John had been open-minded about discussing anything doctrinal, even things controversial up through 1981. But he seemed to close himself off completely in 1981 and for the rest of his life (until 2004), as far as I could tell.
  14. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from SuzA in The Watchtower & The Cigarette Company   
    (Micah 4:13) 13 Get up and thresh, O daughter of Zion; For I will change your horns into iron, And I will change your hooves into copper, And you will pulverize many peoples. You will devote their dishonest profit to Jehovah, And their resources to the true Lord of the whole earth.”
    Any questions?
  15. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Ann O'Maly in God's Kingdom Rules   
    I'm sure Ann knows this, but I just saw the question. It was done in two parts: partly in 1943, and finished in 1944. The best research I've seen on this topic comes from a non-JW who opposes the JWs, but he was never baptized. (AlanF) So no one should technically call him an apo-state. At any rate his research is all true. I've looked up all his resources.
    http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/evolution-of-606-to-607-bce-in.html
     
  16. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Ann O'Maly in God's Kingdom Rules   
    Absolutely.
    ZWT 1892, Feb. 15, R1372:
    The seventy years which followed the overthrow here depicted are frequently referred to as the seventy years captivity, but the Scriptures designate them the seventy years desolation of the land--a desolation which had been predicted by the prophet `Jeremiah (25:11`), saying, "And this whole land shall be a desolation, and this nation shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years." The completeness of the desolation is shown in `verses 8 and 9` of this lesson and also in `2 Chron. 36:17-21`; and although the king of Babylon allowed certain of the poor of the land to remain, and gave them vineyards and fields, yet it was the Lord's purpose that the land of Israel should be desolate seventy years, and so it was. In the same year Gedaliah, whom the king of Babylon had made governor and under whom many of the Jewish fugitives were disposed to return from neighboring countries, was assassinated, and the entire population speedily removed into Egypt for fear of the wrath of the king of Babylon.--`2 Kings 25:21-26`; `Jer. 41:1-3`; `43:5,6`.
     
    ZWT 1896, May 15, R1980:
    PERIOD OF THE "70 YEARS DESOLATION OF THE LAND."
    This period began after Zedekiah's kingdom was overturned when the land was left desolate (`Jer. 40:6-13`; `40:10-18`; `43:5-7`)
    Jer. 40 and 43 are about Gedaliah's assassination and the Jews' flight.
    There is such a thing as 'prophetic hyperbole.' E.g. 
    Zephaniah 1:2, 3 - “I will completely sweep away everything from the surface of the ground,” declares Jehovah.  3 “I will sweep away man and beast. I will sweep away the birds of the heavens and the fish of the sea, And the stumbling blocks along with the wicked ones; And I will remove mankind from the surface of the ground,” declares Jehovah.
    This was just about punishing Judah.
    There is some archaeological evidence that areas of Judah remained inhabited throughout the Babylonian hegemony. Desolation/devastation doesn't necessarily mean complete depopulation. E.g.
    Nehemiah 2:3 - Then I said to the king: “Long live the king! Why should I not look gloomy when the city, the place where my forefathers are buried, lies in ruins, and its gates have been consumed by fire?” 
    Nehemiah 2:17 - Finally I said to them: “You can see what a terrible situation we are in, how Jerusalem lies in ruins and its gates have been burned with fire. Come, let us rebuild the walls of Jerusalem, so that this disgrace will not continue.” 
    The Jews had been repatriated decades before, yet Jerusalem was still considered to be a devastated, ruined place.
     
     

     
     
  17. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Ann O'Maly in God's Kingdom Rules   
    The shift really began in the 1943 book, The Truth Shall Make You Free. P. 239:
    "In Nebuchadnezzar's time the year began counting from the fall of the year, or about October 1, our time. Since he destroyed Jerusalem in the summer of 606 B .C., that year had its beginning in the fall of 607 B .C. and its ending in the fall of 606 B .C."
      
  18. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Evacuated in JW Brothers in Korea cover over a bus with a Crisis of Conscience banner   
    Looks more like a Crisis of Parking!! 
  19. Downvote
    JW Insider reacted to JWTheologian in Is the WTS the organization Jehovah is using?   
    Allen, I understand the necessity to point out the flaws and misapplication of people that only focus on one small part of something, rather than the entire picture to hide their own fallacies. By those standards. The “entire” world is flawed. Pity, they don’t seem to see their own flaws, when they misinterpret someone else's thought.

  20. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from OtherSheep in God's Kingdom Rules   
    On the other hand, the "first edition" of "Faith on the March" says that this happened on Sunday, October 4th:
    We realized that 1914 was upon and now we must do something about it. On the 23rd of August, 1914, Brother Russell made a trip out in the northwest, down the Pacific coast and over into the Southern States, and wound up at Saratoga Springs, New York, where we held a convention September 30 through October 4, 1914. That was an interesting time because we thought we were going to heaven that first week in October--- and were looking forward to that. That was the idea.
    ...
    On Saturday about 500 of us took the Hudson River daylight boat, a very lovely ride from Albany to New York. Then Sunday morning we were to open up in the Tabernacle and conclude our convention. Quite a number of the conventioners stayed at Bethel. Sunday morning, October 4th, the dining room was crowded. Brother Russell's habit when he came down in the morning was to hesitate at the entrance of the dining room a moment and say, "Good morning, everyone". We would all say, "Good morning". But this morning after greeting us as to the time of day he said, "The Gentile Times have ended, their kings have had their day." Then, of course, we all applauded. We were all very excited and I wouldn't have been surprised if at that moment we all just started up, that being the signal to go up, but it wasn't.
    So the same recorder of these events first wrote the circumstances to show why it was Sunday, October 4th when the announcement was made.
  21. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from OtherSheep in God's Kingdom Rules   
    Good post. Good research.
    The Watchtower here says it was on October 1st, and I think A. H. Macmillan was the first to say it was on October 2nd.
    I have read Macmillan's "Faith on the March" and I'm now reading the typewritten first draft of Macmillan's "Faith on the March." (His edits remind me of experiences watching the editing process at Bethel.) For years, I have noticed that there are a couple of things that Macmillan either just "made up" or else he had a very poor memory, or was choosing between two or more versions of a story. But when he chose to report on specific things that Russell said or did, there is strong evidence that it's Macmillan's own fault when he reported it incorrectly. (For example, when a bunch of Watchtower readers were reported to have waited on a bridge in Pittsburgh in their white robes expecting to be raptured, he quotes Russell to exonerate him from any personal embarrassment in that incident. But he ends up claiming Russell said something that he wouldn't likely have said unless Russell also had a bad memory. The newspaper account that Macmillan claims to base the story on, actually doesn't exist, and it now appears Macmillan confused it with a report from a Philadelphia newspaper about an incident a few hundred miles away from Pittsburgh.)
    On the other hand, Rutherford had also been known to make "convenient" changes in a story, which he did several times in his booklet from 1915: "Great Battle in the Ecclesiastical Heavens." As a lawyer he must have had some of the documentation in front of him, but he makes several claims in that booklet that differ from the court records, often just slightly and often in a technically ambiguous manner, and often with an obvious purpose of simplification or to avoid a distraction that might create suspicion. (The entire booklet was written for the purpose of exonerating Russell from about a dozen of the major claims made against him and/or his business practices.)
    In think that in this particular case, I would choose to believe that it did happen, and that Macmillan is correct, rather than Rutherford. The reason is that Rutherford may have only wanted to give emphasis to the fact that the Gentile Times ended on October 1st, and including the fact that Russell waited until October 2nd would be a distraction that would have required a small explanation. So the slight change was just to avoid the distraction. Technically, Rutherford may have thought that "first of October" could ambiguously refer to the earliest part of October instead of a specific date. It's also possible that Rutherford incorrectly remembered it being on October 1st.
    But the other reason to accept Macmillan's date is because it looks like he is working from a diary. We also know from another source document that Macmillan had worked out the travel dates for all his speeches and convention travel in 1914. We also have a letter from Macmillan explaining why he can't make a certain travel arrangement based on the dates and (un)available funds. As a Bethel administrator, he would likely have kept good documentation. Also, we know it was common for many Bible Students to use books like "Daily Heavenly Manna" as a diary. What he writes in Faith on the March appears to say that many of the Bethelites didn't even get home until late in the day or evening on October 1st.  500 persons (including Bethelites and "conventioners" who would be staying at Bethel at least until Sunday October 4th) were traveling on October 1st from Saratoga Springs to Brooklyn.including a Hudson Steamer from Albany. This is several hours of travel. Note from Macmillan's book:
    Ever since 1879 The Watch Tower had been calling attention to the foretold end of the present systems as due to begin in 1914. But while we were all looking forward to 1914 and the end of wickedness and sorrow in the earth, many of us were thinking more of our own personal, individual "change" than anything else. On August 23, 1914, as I well recall, Pastor Russell started on a trip to the Northwest, down the Pacific coast and over into the Southern states, and then ending at Saratoga Springs, New York, where we held a convention September 27-30. That was a highly interesting time because a few of us seriously thought we were going to heaven during the first week of that October. At that Saratoga Springs convention quite a number were in attendance. Wednesday (September 30) I was invited to talk on the subject, "The End of All Things Is at Hand; Therefore Let Us Be Sober, Watchful and Pray." Well, as one would say, that was down my road. I believed it myself sincerely — that the church was "going home" in October. During that discourse I made this unfortunate remark: "This is probably the last public address I shall ever deliver because we shall be going home soon." Next morning (October I ) about five hundred of us began the return trip to Brooklyn, including a lovely ride on the Hudson River Day Line steamer from Albany to New York. Sunday morning we were to open services in Brooklyn, this to conclude our convention. Quite a number of the conventioners stayed at Bethel, the home of the headquarters staff members. Friday morning (October 2) we all were seated at the breakfast table when Russell came down. As he entered the room he hesitated a moment as was his custom and said cheerily, "Good morning all." But this morning, instead of proceeding to his seat as usual, he briskly clapped his hands and happily announced: "The Gentile times have ended; their kings have had their day." We all applauded.
    We were highly excited and I would not have been surprised if at that moment we had just started up, that becoming the signal to begin ascending heavenward — but of course there was nothing like that, really.
    [My great grand-father was with Russell on the Northwest and Pacific portion of Russell's convention tour starting August 23, 1914. He was one of speakers out of Chicago who usually joined Russell only on the "Western Tour" as they called it ]
  22. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Ann O'Maly in Michael the Archangel   
    That's a little like claiming that the verb "to say" isn't in the following sentence: "Whenever he says something, others begin saying the same thing that he said."
    In Greek, there are many more forms of verb tense conjugations than there are in English. So verbs are simply referenced by the first form: first person singular.
    Therefore, for reference purposes, proskunesatosan is proskuneo. 
     
  23. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Evacuated in Who Raised Jesus   
    This is much more interesting when you quote the verses in total:
    (Acts 10:40) God raised this one up on the third day and allowed him to become manifest,
    Notice that although we believe the "Father" corresponds to the only true God, this verse does not mention the Father raising his Son. It says that GOD raised up Jesus. Although some would say that Jesus was also God, that wouldn't explain why Jesus needed God's permission, in effect, to be allowed to become visible after his resurrection. Some Trinitarians claim that the only reason that Jesus spoke of the Father as "his God" was to reflect his humanity while in the form of a man. Yet here we see that Jesus as a raised spirit creature needed to be allowed by God to manifest himself as a man.
    (John 2:19) Jesus replied to them: “Tear down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
    John makes clear that the entire life of Jesus was to do his Father's will, and therefore they were in complete unity of purpose. Jesus lived his life on earth for the purpose of accomplishing that will which included being raised from the dead and going back to heaven after that will was accomplished on earth. Jesus prayed to his God that the Father's will would be done, and his part in that meant that he was in effect raising it up through his participation in the will of his Father. If Jesus was alive to be able to raise himself then he didn't die, and the Father's will was not done. Jesus did not die for your sins, if Jesus did not truly die. If Jesus died, only God could raise him. If God died then he does not exist forever and was not immortal. 
    (Romans 8:11)  If, now, the spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his spirit that resides in you.
    Obviously, the verse says nothing about the spirit raising Jesus from the dead. (The KJV agrees with the NWT here.) It would not have been wrong to say that Jehovah used his holy spirit to raise Jesus, but in every case, it is Jehovah, God, the Father, who raises Jesus. If I said: "The money of the man who killed Jesse James should be in my wallet," this would not mean that money killed Jesse James. 
     
  24. Downvote
    JW Insider reacted to JWTheologian in Is the WTS the organization Jehovah is using?   
    This seems a little farfetched, if you believe your understanding has a better claim to salvation than Christ. You mention “Mother”. Many Christians maintain an earthly view of Mary. However, Mary served her purpose as a vessel, nothing else.

    Now, you seem to forget, or don’t wish to recognize is, no one comes to the Father, unless through me. All past covenants are now reliant on Christ Sacrifice. So, while you may wish to advertise frivolous websites? Only through the Glory of God and Christ will anyone gain everlasting life. That’s non-negotiable, including Witnesses, and or anyone claiming falsehoods through their own understanding, NOT scripture.

    The last time I looked, The Watchtower has made every attempt as Christ did to educate the spiritually infirm. What has Christendom done, besides boast that Jesus is God, and there is no Armageddon, but there is a literal heaven and hell. Bible thumpers usually stick with hellfire, but that’s why learning scripture goes a long way.

    Matthew 28:19 Context: THE GREAT COMMISSION

    Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

    Where is Christendom about accepting a command Christ instructed.

    Matthew Henry Commentary

    He now solemnly commissioned the apostles and his ministers to go forth among all nations. The salvation they were to preach, is a common salvation; whoever will, let him come, and take the benefit; all are welcome to Christ Jesus.

    Mark 16:15

    And he said unto them, go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.


     
    Matthew 13:52 Context: The Parable of the Net

    52Then He told them, “For this reason, every scribe who has been discipled in the kingdom of heaven is like a homeowner who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old.”

    What would be the objective for Christendom? Which they have NOT done in the name of Christ.


     
    Luke 24:47 Context: Jesus Unveils the Scriptures

    and in His name repentance and forgiveness of sins will be proclaimed to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem.

    Acts 1:2

    Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen.

    Acts 1:8

    But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

    So, the process was to continue beyond the Apostles time.

    Where is Christendom with the simplest of task, that the Jehovah’s Witnesses have taken the lead on.

    Who has come to emulate our Lord and Savior really? Christendom, please! They only devote themselves for self-interest, not for the people of the world.

    Matthew 25:31-32 Context: The Sheep and the Goats

    When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats

    2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 Context: Christ's Coming

    7and to grant relief to you who are oppressed, and to us as well, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8in blazing fire. He will inflict vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

    This will include churches that acclaim apostasy. So Christendom has a long way to go before they can walk in Jesus footsteps.

    1 Peter 2:21 Context: Christ's Example of Suffering

    21For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in His footsteps.

    So are Jehovah’s Witnesses taking the lead on those things mentioned in scripture? YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  25. Downvote
    JW Insider reacted to JWTheologian in Is the WTS the organization Jehovah is using?   
    Here's the thing. I’m not here to press upon you what I think scripture means. I’m basically here to convey to the people that come to this website, there are people that enjoy being deceptive by misleading people here, by showing WTS literature that doesn’t convey the sentiment of the WTS but their own convoluted opinion.

    The WTS bases all it’s teaching from the Holy Bible. That’s the constitution of the WTS. The WTS for Jehovah’s Witnesses changed not necessarily in 1931 when it was announced, but 1934 when their literature reflected the name change. So, anyone Baptized under that name was a real Witness and not a reformed Bible Student like Rutherford that was baptized in 1906 under the banner of Bible Students, and anyone joining the Witnesses between 1934 and 1942, when Knorr became the FIRST true leader of Jehovah’s Witnesses under that banner, were Reformed Bible Students. A description that was never entered but should have been, RBS.

    The idea that the Bible Students and the Jehovah’s Witnesses share the same ideology, is simply…distorting the FACTS.

    Now your biggest problem with the WTS is HATE. You definitely don't understand scripture, but press upon using scripture to misrepresent the intended use. That’s fine. The only one your hurting is you.

    Now you call yourself a Christian of good standing. FALSE! If you were in good standing, you would reflect in everything you write, and correct your views.

    You pretend to ignore the FACT that God left, a structured scheme for man to follow after the fall of man. You continue to suggest that Jehovah himself has failed because he used people like, Abraham, Moses, Daniel, David, etc. and anyone he deemed fit to relay his wishes. God used MEN to achieve those goals. JESUS used MEN to achieve those goals.

    So the perception is ludicrous no matter how you slice it. Not to mention, you would also have to cancel yourself for being part of the human race. (MEN) Therefore all the negativity you have for the WTS can also be APPLIED to YOU.

    Now you stated elsewhere not to inject personal thoughts, and yet…the opinions you have about the WTS are your personal opinion. So, do yourself a favor and not rely on apostasy sites for your information, or wannabe JW’s that pretend to be Witnesses when they are NOT. Ann O’maly, and JWinsider are a perfect example of putting trust on a false prophet. But then, anyone evangelizing for deception in the eyes of God is a FALSE PROPHET, Right! Anyone who deliberately misleads the flock for their own personal gain. Why was King Saul removed!!!

    Answer yourself that. The Governing Body if you really must know didn’t have its inception when it was first published that way. It began Before Rutherford. So WTS history, you definitely don't.

    Now, the outlandish look in leaders, would pretty much includes ALL religions, since they are all governed by someone. For Witnesses, we believe in scripture as our constitution.

    But try to justify ACTS 6:3 Context: The Choosing of the Seven

    3Therefore, brothers, select from among you seven men confirmed to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will appoint this responsibility to them.

    These are GODS WORDS and CHRIST INSTRUCTIONS, I dare you!!!!!!!!!!!, find fault with them both, for suggesting to find 7 reputable “MEN”, among “MEN”. Which is the makeup of the Governing Body right now.

    So, you can recite the entire bible. It won’t make any difference until you learn the TRUE meaning of scripture. Don’t let hypocrisy be ones undoing. Because in essence, your going against bible principle.

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