JW Insider

Yes, the right wing in India is allowed to go unchecked. They kill those who eat beef.  They are also persecuting those who become Christians.

When he said he’s made a ass of himself it was over a book he wrote…and I forget the actual heading but I’ll have a go st….then is finished the mystery or something like that…it was a study book….I remember the word mystery….and I also remember feeling thankful I wasn’t around at the time as it was a big book to study and then realize all that time and effort would have been wasted…that was the reason why he said that…..I’m not sure of anything else..other than his changes to so many of Russell’s thoughts….of which many as you say have been returned to…thank goodness!
 
Things we’re rough back in those days…you should here of some of the stories from old Australian brothers and how they reacted to being banned….in the Second World War…a few  physically tried to defend the KHs…..as they were being confiscated legally by the government.Those men back then built and payed for those  halls…life was very hard then.
Different era…different culture…tough people….probably had to be like that to survive those times….must say that was a nice post JWI

Changing back to Russell's view has happened with several teachings, including the elder arrangement, identification of the superior authorities, etc. But I also give Rutherford great credit in getting us out of idolatry, not just with the pagan celebrations, but with the idolizing of Russell himself. Rutherford claimed that the brotherhood was literally worshiping Russell and he called it "creature worship."
But we shouldn't get the idea, of course, that Russell was always such a paragon of virtue himself. He lied in court about business matters he had involved the Watchtower with. And when his perjury was obvious, Russell changed his story 180 degrees. Rutherford knew these things about Russell, having been his attorney, as his defense of Russell in 1915 shows.
Curiously, right up to the last book of the Hebrew Scriptures (OT) the Jews are still being condemned for giving in to idolatry. Yet it was the scribes and Pharisees who deserved credit for freeing the Jews from idolatry from that period forward, so that idolatry was no longer the problem in Jesus' day. It's true that Jesus condemned them for hypocrisy, but Jesus didn't condemn them for all their teachings. In fact, Jesus told his audience that they should still do what the Pharisees tell them to do, just not to do as they do. In Mark, Jesus says to one of them: (Mark 12:34) . . .At this Jesus, discerning he had answered intelligently, said to him: “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”. . . And we also know that not just Nicodemus, but a great many from the Pharisees became believers. And one became an apostle.
I thought that was only over his failed predictions for 1925. And it was evidently only privately to a few persons at Bethel that he admitted this. In the Watchtower he blamed the brotherhood for believing it, rather than admitting that he himself had anything to do with it.
To me, I think all of this is a great lesson that we don't put our trust in earthling man, in whom no salvation belongs. But we appreciate the good teachings and continuing improvements that we have shared together. The copper has become gold. It's not about the overseers themselves, but about what the right motivations bring.
(Isaiah 60:17) . . .Instead of the copper I will bring in gold, And instead of the iron I will bring in silver, Instead of the wood, copper, And instead of the stones, iron; And I will appoint peace as your overseers And righteousness as your task assigners.
If you look closely at the words here, it's not saying that the overseers themselves will be righteous humans, but that we will be led by peace and righteousness "itself." Not humans, specifically. Here's how the NIV puts it:
(Isaiah 60:17, NIV) Instead of bronze I will bring you gold, and silver in place of iron. Instead of wood I will bring you bronze, and iron in place of stones. I will make peace your governor and well-being your ruler.
So, yes, Russell might have sometimes been a perjurer, and Rutherford might have been a "drunken, womanizing, cigar-smoker" (as my old "table head" at Bethel called him). But we still greatly appreciate what has been accomplished over the years. What Jehovah has accomplished is often (as some old-timers still say) in spite of us, not because of us. What must actually be happening is that Jehovah's spirit acts upon us as a group because of our own love for one another. It's not specifically because of what we are always told to believe, but because of our pure and peaceful and righteous motivations. Love and joy and peace and faith, etc., are what bring Jehovah's spirit to all of us, including the good influence on the ones taking the lead.

That's definitely true too. But Jesus still encouraged people to follow what they said. Naturally that didn't mean in everything without question.
(Matthew 23:2, 3) . . .“The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. 3 Therefore, all the things they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but they do not practice what they say.

Nothing significant is left out of the quote, in spite of the ellipses. This teaching wasn't Rutherford's doing. Russell believed it too. Rutherford hadn't finished "rethinking" all the things he wanted to change from Russell's time. It wasn't until about 1931 that he had pretty much finished getting rid of nearly everything that was uniquely "Russellite."
But as you say, culture is hard to change. When this Pleiades teaching finally was dropped, it was replaced with the "Rutherfordite" method of applying nearly everything in the Hebrew Scriptures to 1918:
*** w53 11/15 p. 703 Questions From Readers ***
What is meant by ‘binding the sweet influences of the Pleiades’ or ‘loosing the bands of Orion’ or ‘bringing forth Mazzaroth in his seasons’ or ‘guiding Arcturus with his sons,’ as mentioned at Job 38:31, 32?—W. S., New York.
Some attribute striking qualities to these constellations or star groups and on the basis of such they then offer private interpretations of Job 38:31, 32 that amaze their hearers. Their views are not always sound from the standpoint of astronomy, and when viewed Scripturally they are completely without foundation. ... Incidentally, Pleiades can no longer be considered the center of the universe and it would be unwise for us to try to fix God’s throne as being at a particular spot in the universe. ...
It has particular application to Jehovah’s people now. In the prophetic drama of Job he represents the faithful followers of Christ on earth at the end of this system of things, specially from 1918 onward. He represents the anointed remnant of the body of Christ, how at that time they were afflicted, in captivity to Satan’s organization, Babylonish Christendom in particular. They could not understand why Jehovah permitted this affliction from the world, and particularly from Christendom. They did not appreciate just what Jehovah’s purposes were concerning them, and so it was appropriate for God to specially reveal himself to them as the Supreme One of the universe and that the big issue was his universal domination over all creation, animate and inanimate. From and after 1918 Jehovah has made these points stand out.
There are even hints here and later in the article that the "real" explanation had more to do with believing that the "superior authorities" were God and Christ, and not the secular authorities. (A point also made in another article of the very same issue of the Watchtower.) That teaching wasn't changed until nearly 10 years after this article. But the points about Jehovah's sovereignty were still very valid.

Changing back to Russell's view has happened with several teachings, including the elder arrangement, identification of the superior authorities, etc. But I also give Rutherford great credit in getting us out of idolatry, not just with the pagan celebrations, but with the idolizing of Russell himself. Rutherford claimed that the brotherhood was literally worshiping Russell and he called it "creature worship."
But we shouldn't get the idea, of course, that Russell was always such a paragon of virtue himself. He lied in court about business matters he had involved the Watchtower with. And when his perjury was obvious, Russell changed his story 180 degrees. Rutherford knew these things about Russell, having been his attorney, as his defense of Russell in 1915 shows.
Curiously, right up to the last book of the Hebrew Scriptures (OT) the Jews are still being condemned for giving in to idolatry. Yet it was the scribes and Pharisees who deserved credit for freeing the Jews from idolatry from that period forward, so that idolatry was no longer the problem in Jesus' day. It's true that Jesus condemned them for hypocrisy, but Jesus didn't condemn them for all their teachings. In fact, Jesus told his audience that they should still do what the Pharisees tell them to do, just not to do as they do. In Mark, Jesus says to one of them: (Mark 12:34) . . .At this Jesus, discerning he had answered intelligently, said to him: “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”. . . And we also know that not just Nicodemus, but a great many from the Pharisees became believers. And one became an apostle.
I thought that was only over his failed predictions for 1925. And it was evidently only privately to a few persons at Bethel that he admitted this. In the Watchtower he blamed the brotherhood for believing it, rather than admitting that he himself had anything to do with it.
To me, I think all of this is a great lesson that we don't put our trust in earthling man, in whom no salvation belongs. But we appreciate the good teachings and continuing improvements that we have shared together. The copper has become gold. It's not about the overseers themselves, but about what the right motivations bring.
(Isaiah 60:17) . . .Instead of the copper I will bring in gold, And instead of the iron I will bring in silver, Instead of the wood, copper, And instead of the stones, iron; And I will appoint peace as your overseers And righteousness as your task assigners.
If you look closely at the words here, it's not saying that the overseers themselves will be righteous humans, but that we will be led by peace and righteousness "itself." Not humans, specifically. Here's how the NIV puts it:
(Isaiah 60:17, NIV) Instead of bronze I will bring you gold, and silver in place of iron. Instead of wood I will bring you bronze, and iron in place of stones. I will make peace your governor and well-being your ruler.
So, yes, Russell might have sometimes been a perjurer, and Rutherford might have been a "drunken, womanizing, cigar-smoker" (as my old "table head" at Bethel called him). But we still greatly appreciate what has been accomplished over the years. What Jehovah has accomplished is often (as some old-timers still say) in spite of us, not because of us. What must actually be happening is that Jehovah's spirit acts upon us as a group because of our own love for one another. It's not specifically because of what we are always told to believe, but because of our pure and peaceful and righteous motivations. Love and joy and peace and faith, etc., are what bring Jehovah's spirit to all of us, including the good influence on the ones taking the lead.

There's another side to this story too. I don't trust the NYT as far as a delivery boy can throw it, but the other side should still be noted.
(Side Note: Although all coronaviruses so far have been known to come from animal species, I don't doubt the possibility that it could have come from a lab, either in the US or China. A very recent Newsweek article attacks Fauci, but appears to do so as a way to blame him for funding a lot of gain-of-function research on as many bat coronaviruses as they could manage. The fact that a lot of coronavirus research in Wuhan was funded by Fauci could have been one of the reasons that the US (and NYT) so quickly denied the possibility of a lab leak.)
There are still quite a few good scientific reasons to doubt the leak story, and also to doubt the virologists story. Strong rumors have also emerged that the same original strain has been found in blood samples from Italy going back into early 2019. But a leak still seems possible to me.
Anyway the NYT story probably didn't like the virologist because her story was made part of a Trump - Steve Bannon  project. I've mentioned Bannon's involvement in anti-China media projects before, and he has made a lot of money from the Pentagon for it. So has Falun Gong/NDTV, where the story continues to be repeated.
Here is what the NYT (and others) made of the Chinese virologist story: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/20/business/media/steve-bannon-china.html
How Steve Bannon and a Chinese Billionaire Created a Right-Wing Coronavirus Media Sensation
Increasingly allied, the American far right and members of the Chinese diaspora tapped into social media to give a Hong Kong researcher a vast audience for peddling unsubstantiated pandemic claims.
. . . .
Dr. Li-Meng Yan wanted to remain anonymous. It was mid-January, and Dr. Yan, a researcher in Hong Kong, had been hearing rumors about a dangerous new virus in mainland China that the government was playing down. Terrified for her personal safety and career, she reached out to her favorite Chinese YouTube host, known for criticizing the Chinese government.
Within days, the host was telling his 100,000 followers that the coronavirus had been deliberately released by the Chinese Communist Party. He wouldn’t name the whistle-blower, he said, because officials could make the person “disappear.”
By September, Dr. Yan had abandoned caution. She appeared in the United States on Fox News making the unsubstantiated claim to millions that the coronavirus was a bio-weapon manufactured by China.
Overnight, Dr. Yan became a right-wing media sensation, with top advisers to President Trump and conservative pundits hailing her as a hero. Nearly as quickly, her interview was labeled on social media as containing “false information,” while scientists rejected her research as a polemic dressed up in jargon.
Her evolution was the product of a collaboration between two separate but increasingly allied groups that peddle misinformation: a small but active corner of the Chinese diaspora and the highly influential far right in the United States.
Each saw an opportunity in the pandemic to push its agenda. For the diaspora, Dr. Yan and her unfounded claims provided a cudgel for those intent on bringing down China’s government. For American conservatives, they played to rising anti-Chinese sentiment and distracted from the Trump administration’s bungled handling of the outbreak.
Both sides took advantage of the dearth of information coming out of China, where the government has refused to share samples of the virus and has resisted a transparent, independent investigation. Its initial cover-up of the outbreak has further fueled suspicion about the origins of the virus.
An overwhelming body of evidence shows that the virus almost certainly originated in an animal, most likely a bat, before evolving to make the leap into humans. While U.S. intelligence agencies have not ruled out the possibility of a lab leak, they have not found any proof so far to back up that theory.
Each saw an opportunity in the pandemic to push its agenda. For the diaspora, Dr. Yan and her unfounded claims provided a cudgel for those intent on bringing down China’s government. For American conservatives, they played to rising anti-Chinese sentiment and distracted from the Trump administration’s bungled handling of the outbreak.
Both sides took advantage of the dearth of information coming out of China, where the government has refused to share samples of the virus and has resisted a transparent, independent investigation. Its initial cover-up of the outbreak has further fueled suspicion about the origins of the virus.
An overwhelming body of evidence shows that the virus almost certainly originated in an animal, most likely a bat, before evolving to make the leap into humans. While U.S. intelligence agencies have not ruled out the possibility of a lab leak, they have not found any proof so far to back up that theory. . . .
Dr. Yan, through representatives for Mr. Bannon and Mr. Guo, declined multiple requests for an interview. So did Mr. Wang, citing The New York Times’s “reputation for fake news.”
...
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I don't trust much of either side on this issue. And I don't always trust "science" either. Lancet and New England Journal of Medicine completely blew it by running fraudulent reports with obviously fraudulent data. Even "peer review" doesn't mean much when so much greed is at play.

He's probably Allen Smith, under one of his many pseudonyms...

Yikes! It turns out that John Lennon liked Chairman Mao and regretted writing the lyric that suggested he didn’t.
https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/beatles-the-lyric-from-revolution-john-lennon-regretted.html/
He and @JW Insiderwould get along just fine! In fact, didn’t JWI say he knows has friends in the music biz?
It is enough! I have figured it out! 
PSomH is John Butler. I am Dr. Max ‘Ace’ Inhibitor. Pudgy is—well, I know he’s been around under a different name. The Librarian is That ‘ol Hen. Dmitor is—the list would stretch off the page.
if you don’t have an extra handle, you are nobody! And face it—JWI is not nobody!
So……….(drum roll please)……..JWI is actually …..
JOHN LENNON!  (the pinko)
I think I’ve said before that my permanent year text is a modification of Romans 3:4.   
Every man online is a liar.
There’s no way anyone can know, so why answer? Anybody can say anything. It will have to be one of those “Does not the ear test words as the tongue tastes food?” kind of things, and if different people come to different conclusions—that’s okay too. It’s not as though anyone can construct their very own online congregation here.
I’ll say one thing about Jehovah’s Witnesses, though. The requirement to be humorless is not put forth in any of the baptism questions. Nor is the requirement to be holier-than-thou. Nor to restrict ones’ diet to Bible-sandwiches.

“But if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao…”

He did get a bit heated with PSomH once. But that character would test anyone’s patience.

Right here: 

I’m working up a post on this one. Not quite there yet, but an excerpt is: 
It didn’t take long for word to spread about the new UN statue—doesn’t it looks a lot like one of those end-time Bible beasts? "Did they really think that they could put this up without anyone noticing?" said Michael  Snyder, who runs a religious blog.
The statue reminds me of Geoffrey Jackson’s words that, not only does Jehovah do something, but he does it in style. No, not that Jehovah gooses them to erect that statue, or any other. It is a gift from the Mexican government. But it’s like when people do something unknowingly that fits right in to the narrative, almost like one of those hooks in jaws scenarios.
I mean, come on! Here the JW organization has for 80 years identified the UN organization as the wild beast that “was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss,” the wild beast that is the image of the one that “was like a leopard, but its feet were like those of a bear, and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth [which] the dragon gave to the beast its power and its throne and great authority,” the wild beast that draws its power from the seven world powers of Bible history it reflects, the wild beast that through it ALL the (ten) kings of the earth get a temporary crack at world rulership—who can forget that Daniel vision of the beast like a lion with wings of an eagle?—the JW organization puts such identification on the table, and then the UN itself erects a statue as though to say, “Yep—that’s us!” A guy can be forgiven the feeling that someone is manipulating the minions. 
Enter Scopes.com, the secular fact-checking site. Scopes.com, who wouldn’t know the significance of a scripture if they choked on one as a chicken bone. Scopes.com, who explains it all away by observing that, yes it is a composite beast, and yes, there are similar beasts in Daniel and Revelation, but this beast says it is good and the beasts of the Bible say they are bad—and besides, the Bible vision is a flying lion, whereas the UN displays a flying jaguar, and don’t those Bible people know the science of zoology? With this bit of secular theology, Snopes figures it has fact-checked the case closed.
https://www.snopes.com/news/2021/12/14/united-nations-end-times-sculpture/
Don’t get your wild beasts from Snopes, who wouldn’t know a wild beast from a gerbil. Get them from Jehovah’s Witnesses who would and who have written it up here.
What is Wild beast: https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/scarlet-beast-of-revelation-17/
It’s not enough that the UN erects that swords into plowshares statue from Isaiah and it’s but inspirational sloganeering for them without a prayer of it ever becoming reality and then Jehovah’s Witnesses come along and implement it without fuss? 

Advice taken - but I have to add.   I usually like to hear people talk about their own experiences - how they fled - how they escaped and why.  Such as Tibetan families, Uyger families who still have families back in China....and women who were picked up by the government - just before their babies were born - babies taken out, sterilized and the women thrown on the side of the road......far away from home.  This is the kind of EXPERIENCES  I have listened to.    I like personal stories.... so one can evaluate all the facts to see if the story is fake or not. 
 I do not trust any news.  I worked for newspapers and paid for advertisements on TV - I know where their finances come from. Much of the news received large sums from CHINESE cover organizations. At present more than 50 percent of finances for TV stations and other media is coming from pharmaceutical industrial complex as is the FDA and most of the Allopathic health industry.  Money talks.  Hospitals and the entire system have been compromised by money.
The smoking gun for me is the fact that the world-class virologists, excellent heart specialists and other experts,  who know what they are talking about, are being silenced.  One need not have a PHD to figure out that the world around us is a false world created for us by those in power.... and this includes China.  The West is imitating China - as I said on this platform before.

I am happy that you are asking questions..... but you go out from the premise that the final war of Armageddon will be between Jews and gentiles. Read Revelation 19 and you will see it is a war between Jesus (righteous warfare as he rides a white horse) against all humans who do not accept his governance. There is only two sides: human rulership or Jehovah's  rulership and his moral principles.  These godly principles are the rules on which the new society will be based.
The theme of the bible is the choice which Adam made.  Human self-rulership and human choice of their own morals (good and bad) OR the good and bad prescribed by Jehovah and His kingdom which will restore the world to His original purpose.
Right throughout history there has been all kinds of human rulerships and philosophies which people made up. Jehovah gave a list of the empires that would rule over his covenanted people... one can follow them in Daniel. The seven heads were egypt, assyria, babylon, persia, greece, rome and anglo-american empire - which came out of the little horn which came out of Rome.
These governments come right down to our day.  The trick is to see where revelation takes over from Daniel.   It is quite clear with a little study. Daniel and Ezekiel gives events which will happen in our time as well.  Revelation talks of the beast with the 7 heads (political system) and the image of the beast - which is scarlet and full of blasphemous names.  The Image of the beast will turn against religion (the image in NOT the beast itself but gets life from the seventh head of the beast. )
Unfortunately, witness conflates all these - she is sloppy and not meticulous.  In my study of the other prophecies - they went into fulfillment EXACTLY and meticulously.... I give attention to every word!    
I do not pretend to know it all - but I have had a keen interest in these things for quite some time and I am not loved because of this!  However, I am not here to please people...... One must be prepared to be hated by those who have no fear of god but promote their own ideas!
 
 

Senate Passes $50 Billion Bill To Combat Chinese Influence By Developing Own Panda
WASHINGTON—Securing a rare bipartisan consensus as both parties acknowledged the growing influence of the nation’s biggest geopolitical rival, the U.S. Senate passed passed a bill Monday allocating $50 billion to compete directly with China by developing pandas on American soil. “If we continue to rely on China for these highly sought-after bears, we may one day wake up and discover we no longer have an adequate supply of giant pandas,” said Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, explaining that if the United States failed to make a substantial investment in its panda infrastructure now, it might find itself forever at the mercy of a powerful Chinese monopoly. “But the days of depending on foreign pandas such as Tian Tian and Mei Xiang will soon be behind us. Over the next decade, our domestic panda program will produce bears that are larger, cuter, and can consume bamboo at twice the rate of their Chinese counterparts. Ask yourself, who should be deciding where these adorable animals are dispatched in nations across the globe? China or the United States? I think the answer is clear, and that’s what this bill represents.” Passage of the bill follows recent intelligence reports indicating China now has the ability, through its panda loan program, to shut down America’s entire network of zoos with a single command from Beijing.

Are you one?….being a witness of the Almighty does not make us push overs..or doormats….I dont join in a lot here because it gets a bit childish ….but do not be mistaken Dmitar….Jesus is the Chief Commander of Jehovahs army…he trained and was with Joshua and Kaleb and their ilk to go in and slaughter men women and children and to do so without any compassion  or sorrow….and he had good reasons for that tough seemingly cruel action….why are YOU here…if you are not JW…do you want to find error with us…..don’t bother….we have a massive amount of errors that have proven to be cruel and ruthless at times……I am not like some here who won’t acknowledge them….but…we also have much love and empathy…and the ONLY people that put Jehovahs name back on high where it belongs…however you want to pronounce it….they/we are also the only people that organized a massive preaching work at much effort and cost to get Jehovahs plan known and the hope out to the nations…..all that even with those massive errors…and just for that one fact alone…he will reward any….ANY…who have tried to do that……….so what is it you want from here….why are you here?

What makes you think there's a special "Anointed" vs "Non-Anointed" class distinction made in any of the counsel given in the CGS? The existential distinction that some claimed such that they were "superfine apostles" was disputed by Paul as hot air. Were these "Anointed"? Who cares? What matters is behavior. Like the scriptures say, "A live dog is better than a dead lion", the same is true and Jesus made that point when he gave the illustration about the "Neighborly Samaritan". If Jesus were alive on earth today he might choose to shock someone out of their complacency by replacing "Samaritan" with "Apostate". Jehovah is the judge and of course he's delegated to Jesus the actual instantiation of the judgement (which has yet to take place) so our only concern should be w/our own fidelity to Jehovah. Some may differ or question our integrity, but that's going to happen. This persistent and obsessive concern some have w/who is or isn't wearing an invisible magic beanie is beyond me. To me it shows the person needs to address the man in the mirror and let others do the same.

....Sometimes .... things are not what they seem ....

I didn’t know that. The rats. I agree, it makes no sense to muzzle yourself on a mass media platform..
That much research you’ve done deserves a like.
I dunno, though. I did go through the entire video. Blumenthal touched on reports of North Korean defectors. Isn’t that the place where that kid swiped a flag for a souvenir, was sentenced to a million years hard labor, and was shipped back home a bit later as a vegetable? If Zenz (who I had not heard of —thank you for that) has issues that affect his credibility, I’m not sure Max doesn’t as well. 

And I also happen to know that, growing up, his family did Chinese fire drills but neglected to do actual fire drills, thus putting lives in danger!

This is exactly the kind of issue juggling I mentioned earlier. It keeps people from even taking the time to look at the details of any one single issue, because it's too easy to say, in effect: "Oh, you think I should look at the evidence about Taiwan? I don't have to. Just look at the Hong Kong issue." If the issue was Hong Kong, the same persons can say: "Oh, you think I should look at the evidence about Hong Kong? I don't have to. Just look at the Taiwan issue."

Yes, these claims have also been debunked (IMO). However, getting to the bottom of such claims is a time-consuming process. Also, it is nearly impossible to penetrate through the layers and layers of propaganda that the Western media has flooded us with, especially in Australia and the United States. Even if one could start to be convinced about the outright lies told about Taiwan, and/or a certain tennis player being harrassed by Western media, and/or the Hong Kong riots, for example, there will still be a steady stream of additional claims about people disappearing, organ harvesting, China Sea incursions, Uyghur "concentration camps," water rights in Tibet and India, etc.
Also, the people responsible for decisions at various levels in the Chinese government have undoubtedly done bad things and made bad decisions, imo. So, it's likely that many of these issues are based on actual problems that can then be exaggerated so that persons who want to believe them will do so more easily. As things get worse in the West, people will want (and need) to believe that things must be so much worse in the "East." As Westerners learn about terrible things their own governments are doing, it becomes all the more important to project and amplify the problems of non-Western governments.
As I've said before, to study an issue like this, I first like to see what things that each side will admit is true about the claims of other side. Most "third" sides of an argument are most often merely a compromise between the claims of the two primary sides. This is often just an easy way out that makes the "third" claimant seem more reasonable, but it can merely adds some unwarranted credibility to false claims. And then of course those so-called "more reasonable" claims just get driven right back up to unreasonable levels anyway. Just like the original idea, probably true, that there were thousands of Uyghurs in prison, which then got quickly driven up to a million, then 10 million, then "genocide." (All during the same time period when the population of Uyghurs was still rising in the disputed regions.) 
So, in this case we still have primarily two sides:
The claims of Adrien Zenz who claims to be on a Christian apocalyptic mission from God against China et al, and a still very small number of persons who are relatives of (or associated with) persons in the East Turkestan Islamic Movement, the ETIM. The ETIM was listed as a terrorist organization by George W Bush in 2004. Under Trump, Mike Pompeo announced that he was removing them from the list of terrorist organizations. Almost all "documents" have turned out to be sourced from Adrien Zenz, and most "witnesses" claim to have experienced a version of the story given by persons like Tursunay Ziawudun. (The current version of her story, not the original version that she gave when first interviewed.) If one traces down the claims of activists, human rights groups, and China pundits, they will still find that their claims are sourced by these few witnesses, no matter how many additional witnesses are claimed, or how many hundreds of thousands of pages they have supposedly gone through. On the other side, there is China's version of the story and most of the 54 mostly Muslim nations that China invited into the disputed region to show them what was going on. Those nations have expressed agreement with how China has been dealing with the ETIM and related issues. And, of course, there are many who claim to be experts on China who amplify whichever side they agree with on Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, etc. Curiously the NYT just did a "hit piece" on Chinese social media account owners who support China's version of the issue. Some of these are English-speaking persons living and working in China. These persons often have their accounts banned and flagged, at least temporarily. Even while trying to get some links for this response, I found that Twitter claimed, for several of these account owners, that the account owners had limited the number of people who could read their posts. That made absolutely no sense, but further reading on the Twitter explanation page showed that it was actually Twitter that was limiting the number of persons who could read certain posts on these accounts. When Twitter says "This account owner limits who can see their Tweets" it's actually a clever way of disingenuously expressing the idea that the account owner is limiting their viewability by not changing their view when Twitter doesn't want those views publicized.
Naturally, I was only hit with Twitter warnings and YouTube warnings when accessing accounts that supported China's version.
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So what's a person to do? As I said above, I start out accepting what the ETIM supporters admits is true about the claims of China, and accepting what China admits is true about the claims of the ETIM. Since I don't read Chinese (and only one person in my family does) I will have to temporarily settle for online proxies for each side.
One good place to start is the interview of a well-known Uyghur activist who has been viewed by millions, as interviewed by Daniel Dumbrill, an English-speaking man who works in China.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gygxrdNmzUQ&t=1743s
In the interview, the Muslim Uyghur activist obviously supports the goals of the ETIM, but he admits that 5,000 to 10,000 Uyghurs have engaged in and supported terrorism to reach these goals. He has interviewed many of these even in Turkey where he now lives, and admits that thousands of Uyghurs came from many countries, not just China, to fight as terrorists in Syria and elsewhere. He decries the fact that so many of these young men didn't know the first thing about Islam or the Quran, but that they just wanted to fight for Muslim freedom. He indicates that they should have stayed in "East Turkistan" to fight the Chinese.  A few years ago, when I first heard US officials claim that even Chinese persons were there fighting in Syria, I actually didn't believe this was accurate at the time.
The Muslim activist also admits that the many Muslim-majority nations who were invited to China actually did approve of the methods that China used in order to try to de-radicalize Islamic terrorists. (But he also claims that many of these same countries won't even stand up for Palestinian rights, so why should we have expected them to stand up for Uyghur rights.) The Muslim activist says that his own father, a well-known actor in China, had to spend 10 months in the camp, and was released only 17 months prior to this interview in 2020.
There were several more things admitted by him, and several things that would make persons question the accuracy of the accounts and claims of this activist.
But there were also a few things admitted by the interviewer, Daniel Dumbrill, who is also an journalist/activist promoting China's version of the story. He admits, for example, that he himself has heard and interviewed Uyghurs who are racially profiled in various parts of China, and how some travel restrictions have made it more difficult for Uyghurs to travel in and out of the country. And there were several other things that he either admitted or seemed to tacitly agree with as possible or probable.
The video interview I mentioned is below, but the description section also contains a lot of additional information (just below the video) for anyone curious enough to hear Daniel Dumbrill's further research supporting his own side of the issue.
 
Look at the actual description on the YouTube page to see the following links and descriptions in their entirety, formatted correctly:
In todays episode I speak to a famous Overseas Uyghur activist who is one of the top sources of information for many people in the English world about what is happening in Xinjiang. Carl Zha's interview can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf7PZ... Arslan's Twitter: https://twitter.com/arslan_hidayat Resources: New video of Arslan's father in law: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st... A motive for deliberately instigated unrest: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st... Economics of anti-China Xinjiang propaganda: https://www.workers.org/2019/12/44963/ US Air Strike on Uyhgurs in 2018 - https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st... Information about Adrian Zenz's comments: https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/sta... Detailed information on Adrian Zenz: https://chollima.org/who-is-adrian-ze... Tursunay Ziyawudun's changing story: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st... Uyghur activist who blocked me is funded by ASPI (military industrial complex): https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st... Population data from Adrian Zenz report doesn't add up: https://twitter.com/Hubei_Peasant/sta... While America is sanctioning Xinjiang companies based on assumptions they are involved in atrocities against Muslims, their own companies who have been confirmed to be involved in atrocities against Muslims are winning multi-billion dollar deals: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st... An example of how stories are suddenly fabricated by ordinary people in the West as well: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st... Journalist very active in the Xinjiang story searches for only Xinjiang ethnic minorities who agree with his story and tell the rest to F off: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st... Rushan Abbas admitting to her time in Guantanamo Bay and calling it a nice place: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st... Some of the problematic Douyin posts mentioned in our chat: https://twitter.com/j_bigboote/status... Example of fake missing people: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st... Example of another Uyghur activist's story changing on me: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st... 4 corners Xinjiang documentary issues: https://twitter.com/Ethan_Parallels/s... A thread debunking a lot of the Xinjiang propaganda: https://twitter.com/LassPeaches/statu... More statistics from government data in Xinjiang: https://twitter.com/izak_novak/status... Where the name East Turkistan came from: https://twitter.com/CarlZha/status/11... Chinese culture has been in Xinjiang for a long time: https://twitter.com/CarlZha/status/11... Number of Mosques in China: https://twitter.com/LassPeaches/statu... Xinjiang propaganda is recycled failed Tibet propaganda: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st... Countries that support China's policy in Xinjiang: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st... More government documents on Xinjiang in this thread: https://twitter.com/isgoodrum/status/... The World Uyghur Congress talking about their sources and a thread on John Oliver's Xinjiang piece: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st... A good video debunking John Oliver's piece: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unpUS... More information about the World Uyghur Congress: https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/05/wo... In this thread there are 3 must watch documentaries on the terrorism problem in Xinjiang: https://twitter.com/ml_1maria/status/... Some of the sources behind the forced labour claims: https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/26/fo... Example of HRW NGO not being able to back up their stories when critical questions are asked: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st... More debunked propaganda against China: https://www.reddit.com/r/communism/co... Uyghur speaking up about other Uyghurs being brainwashed into fighting with ISIS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXCbM... Example of the fake testimony about Iraq: https://twitter.com/Seanboy63800243/s... Document that covers the propaganda against Xinjiang: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d... NED funded journalism: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st...

Yes, these claims have also been debunked (IMO). However, getting to the bottom of such claims is a time-consuming process. Also, it is nearly impossible to penetrate through the layers and layers of propaganda that the Western media has flooded us with, especially in Australia and the United States. Even if one could start to be convinced about the outright lies told about Taiwan, and/or a certain tennis player being harrassed by Western media, and/or the Hong Kong riots, for example, there will still be a steady stream of additional claims about people disappearing, organ harvesting, China Sea incursions, Uyghur "concentration camps," water rights in Tibet and India, etc.
Also, the people responsible for decisions at various levels in the Chinese government have undoubtedly done bad things and made bad decisions, imo. So, it's likely that many of these issues are based on actual problems that can then be exaggerated so that persons who want to believe them will do so more easily. As things get worse in the West, people will want (and need) to believe that things must be so much worse in the "East." As Westerners learn about terrible things their own governments are doing, it becomes all the more important to project and amplify the problems of non-Western governments.
As I've said before, to study an issue like this, I first like to see what things that each side will admit is true about the claims of other side. Most "third" sides of an argument are most often merely a compromise between the claims of the two primary sides. This is often just an easy way out that makes the "third" claimant seem more reasonable, but it can merely adds some unwarranted credibility to false claims. And then of course those so-called "more reasonable" claims just get driven right back up to unreasonable levels anyway. Just like the original idea, probably true, that there were thousands of Uyghurs in prison, which then got quickly driven up to a million, then 10 million, then "genocide." (All during the same time period when the population of Uyghurs was still rising in the disputed regions.) 
So, in this case we still have primarily two sides:
The claims of Adrien Zenz who claims to be on a Christian apocalyptic mission from God against China et al, and a still very small number of persons who are relatives of (or associated with) persons in the East Turkestan Islamic Movement, the ETIM. The ETIM was listed as a terrorist organization by George W Bush in 2004. Under Trump, Mike Pompeo announced that he was removing them from the list of terrorist organizations. Almost all "documents" have turned out to be sourced from Adrien Zenz, and most "witnesses" claim to have experienced a version of the story given by persons like Tursunay Ziawudun. (The current version of her story, not the original version that she gave when first interviewed.) If one traces down the claims of activists, human rights groups, and China pundits, they will still find that their claims are sourced by these few witnesses, no matter how many additional witnesses are claimed, or how many hundreds of thousands of pages they have supposedly gone through. On the other side, there is China's version of the story and most of the 54 mostly Muslim nations that China invited into the disputed region to show them what was going on. Those nations have expressed agreement with how China has been dealing with the ETIM and related issues. And, of course, there are many who claim to be experts on China who amplify whichever side they agree with on Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, etc. Curiously the NYT just did a "hit piece" on Chinese social media account owners who support China's version of the issue. Some of these are English-speaking persons living and working in China. These persons often have their accounts banned and flagged, at least temporarily. Even while trying to get some links for this response, I found that Twitter claimed, for several of these account owners, that the account owners had limited the number of people who could read their posts. That made absolutely no sense, but further reading on the Twitter explanation page showed that it was actually Twitter that was limiting the number of persons who could read certain posts on these accounts. When Twitter says "This account owner limits who can see their Tweets" it's actually a clever way of disingenuously expressing the idea that the account owner is limiting their viewability by not changing their view when Twitter doesn't want those views publicized.
Naturally, I was only hit with Twitter warnings and YouTube warnings when accessing accounts that supported China's version.
------------
So what's a person to do? As I said above, I start out accepting what the ETIM supporters admits is true about the claims of China, and accepting what China admits is true about the claims of the ETIM. Since I don't read Chinese (and only one person in my family does) I will have to temporarily settle for online proxies for each side.
One good place to start is the interview of a well-known Uyghur activist who has been viewed by millions, as interviewed by Daniel Dumbrill, an English-speaking man who works in China.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gygxrdNmzUQ&t=1743s
In the interview, the Muslim Uyghur activist obviously supports the goals of the ETIM, but he admits that 5,000 to 10,000 Uyghurs have engaged in and supported terrorism to reach these goals. He has interviewed many of these even in Turkey where he now lives, and admits that thousands of Uyghurs came from many countries, not just China, to fight as terrorists in Syria and elsewhere. He decries the fact that so many of these young men didn't know the first thing about Islam or the Quran, but that they just wanted to fight for Muslim freedom. He indicates that they should have stayed in "East Turkistan" to fight the Chinese.  A few years ago, when I first heard US officials claim that even Chinese persons were there fighting in Syria, I actually didn't believe this was accurate at the time.
The Muslim activist also admits that the many Muslim-majority nations who were invited to China actually did approve of the methods that China used in order to try to de-radicalize Islamic terrorists. (But he also claims that many of these same countries won't even stand up for Palestinian rights, so why should we have expected them to stand up for Uyghur rights.) The Muslim activist says that his own father, a well-known actor in China, had to spend 10 months in the camp, and was released only 17 months prior to this interview in 2020.
There were several more things admitted by him, and several things that would make persons question the accuracy of the accounts and claims of this activist.
But there were also a few things admitted by the interviewer, Daniel Dumbrill, who is also an journalist/activist promoting China's version of the story. He admits, for example, that he himself has heard and interviewed Uyghurs who are racially profiled in various parts of China, and how some travel restrictions have made it more difficult for Uyghurs to travel in and out of the country. And there were several other things that he either admitted or seemed to tacitly agree with as possible or probable.
The video interview I mentioned is below, but the description section also contains a lot of additional information (just below the video) for anyone curious enough to hear Daniel Dumbrill's further research supporting his own side of the issue.
 
Look at the actual description on the YouTube page to see the following links and descriptions in their entirety, formatted correctly:
In todays episode I speak to a famous Overseas Uyghur activist who is one of the top sources of information for many people in the English world about what is happening in Xinjiang. Carl Zha's interview can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf7PZ... Arslan's Twitter: https://twitter.com/arslan_hidayat Resources: New video of Arslan's father in law: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st... A motive for deliberately instigated unrest: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st... Economics of anti-China Xinjiang propaganda: https://www.workers.org/2019/12/44963/ US Air Strike on Uyhgurs in 2018 - https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st... Information about Adrian Zenz's comments: https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/sta... Detailed information on Adrian Zenz: https://chollima.org/who-is-adrian-ze... Tursunay Ziyawudun's changing story: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st... Uyghur activist who blocked me is funded by ASPI (military industrial complex): https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st... Population data from Adrian Zenz report doesn't add up: https://twitter.com/Hubei_Peasant/sta... While America is sanctioning Xinjiang companies based on assumptions they are involved in atrocities against Muslims, their own companies who have been confirmed to be involved in atrocities against Muslims are winning multi-billion dollar deals: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st... An example of how stories are suddenly fabricated by ordinary people in the West as well: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st... Journalist very active in the Xinjiang story searches for only Xinjiang ethnic minorities who agree with his story and tell the rest to F off: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st... Rushan Abbas admitting to her time in Guantanamo Bay and calling it a nice place: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st... Some of the problematic Douyin posts mentioned in our chat: https://twitter.com/j_bigboote/status... Example of fake missing people: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st... Example of another Uyghur activist's story changing on me: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st... 4 corners Xinjiang documentary issues: https://twitter.com/Ethan_Parallels/s... A thread debunking a lot of the Xinjiang propaganda: https://twitter.com/LassPeaches/statu... More statistics from government data in Xinjiang: https://twitter.com/izak_novak/status... Where the name East Turkistan came from: https://twitter.com/CarlZha/status/11... Chinese culture has been in Xinjiang for a long time: https://twitter.com/CarlZha/status/11... Number of Mosques in China: https://twitter.com/LassPeaches/statu... Xinjiang propaganda is recycled failed Tibet propaganda: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st... Countries that support China's policy in Xinjiang: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st... More government documents on Xinjiang in this thread: https://twitter.com/isgoodrum/status/... The World Uyghur Congress talking about their sources and a thread on John Oliver's Xinjiang piece: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st... A good video debunking John Oliver's piece: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unpUS... More information about the World Uyghur Congress: https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/05/wo... In this thread there are 3 must watch documentaries on the terrorism problem in Xinjiang: https://twitter.com/ml_1maria/status/... Some of the sources behind the forced labour claims: https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/26/fo... Example of HRW NGO not being able to back up their stories when critical questions are asked: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st... More debunked propaganda against China: https://www.reddit.com/r/communism/co... Uyghur speaking up about other Uyghurs being brainwashed into fighting with ISIS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXCbM... Example of the fake testimony about Iraq: https://twitter.com/Seanboy63800243/s... Document that covers the propaganda against Xinjiang: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d... NED funded journalism: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/st...

Maybe Jesus just wanted to give a lesson about shunning.

I wonder why people spend so much time imagining anything they do has to do w/anyone else's salvation other than themselves.  (you can't save anyone, you can't save yourself either)
You goal should be to exercise yourself vigorously to get yourself through the door and make sure you're doing all you can to highlight the kingdom as the solution for all the woes we're facing.
Anything else is a distraction. 
All the noise just looks to me like a lack of faith.

Socialism is no panacea. But it should be noted that the primary problem that capitalists and imperialists have with socialism is that its policies are designed to produce better health care for all, better education, better infrastructure and to bring as many persons out of poverty as possible. This means that both global corporations and local corporations who wish to exploit oil, gas, metals, minerals, bananas, cheap labor, produce, etc., will not be able to keep huge profits for themselves. It is for this reason that imperialist countries like the United States will do everything they can to sabotage socialist and communist countries by exploiting and magnifying problems in those countries. This is why imperialist countries send in persons trained to create civil unrest as the US did in Hong Kong. It's why the US has troops and weapons in the China Sea, Taiwan, etc. It's why the US supported Al Qaeda in Syria. It's why economic there are sanctions against Venezuela, North Korea, Syria, Cuba, etc. The hope is that enough people will starve to death so that a revolution of some sort will result in a turnover of power that the US can take advantage of. At the very least it will supposedly reveal dissatisfaction with socialist governments. 
And, of course, its the reason that Westerners have been trained in anti-socialist propaganda so deeply that a meme like the one above from @Equivocation can be produced. Without a shred of awareness about the irony, the person making the meme will have picked a picture taken from a capitalist imperialist nation and use it to pretend that socialism caused the problems.
For example. I decided to look up "Kim's Lounge" on Google and immediately discovered that it's from Detroit in 2015 https://www.flickr.com/photos/raymondhaddad/20308429103
 
The grocery store picture I recall being used as if it were from Venezuela at a time when many such pictures were being taken from Miami and elsewhere just before a hurricane. I believe I already noted on this very forum a few years ago that one of them had all the shelf signs and labels that were 100% in English and yet it was being spread around as if from Venezuela. On Twitter, people had already identified many of these Venezuela pictures as actually coming from Florida.
I didn't try to find where the hospital picture is from, but it is typical of poor countries that are actually rich in resources, but whose resources have been exploited by imperialist countries.
And for the last picture, I don't think anyone would doubt that it could more easily have come, NOT from a socialist country, but is probably a good example of the disparity of wealth between the richest and poorest in typical capitalist countries. There are hundreds of houses that opulent on the north shore and east end of Long Island. I'm sure they are like that in many US neighborhoods.
These memes are easy to make, and easy to spread. But they should make us think twice about what's really behind them.