Arauna

Mr Butler - so loving - I do not need cuddling - definitely not from you and I am not easily deceived as you are. You have found yourself an eco-chamber here that is all! People who encourage you in your folly! That is why I left - it has become an eco-chamber for apostates - not people who can reason objectively!

Then you end up trusting the deceivers? I am not deceived by those anointed who are jealous of the control by others - as they wish to depict the situation. This means they want a bigger say - more control? Want to be central in the decision making? .... because they are the true anointed? ....... True anointed are very humble and do not think they have all the knowledge which others do not have even if they are taught by jehovah. They will keep peace at all costs because righteousness only grows where there is peace and peacemakers are blessed by Jehovah...... These people oppose the GB..... and where can they go? They are not peacemakers but destroyers and sowers of doubt - in very subtle ways! The bible clearly says that Jehovah has one mountain of worship in the last days where all will stream to learn the laws from heavenly Zion and they will learn war no more Is 2:2-4. These dissenters have no nation - they are dissenters to criticize and go about deceiving and sowing doubt - great! This proves they have all the qualities such as mentioned in Gal 5:22 such as patience, love, joy, etc? Not on your life! They see themselves as the true anointed separate from the organization??? I have read no scripture to this effect. Satan loves control - even in minute ways. People can use their power over others to deceive...... manipulate ... such as quoting scriptures to deceive! I am not taken in by this and neither should you. These people have the wrong spirit even if they can quote the bible ad nauseum out of its correct context! The organization was cleaned up after 1914 but it was not perfect...... The organization is being cleaned up as we go along and the light is getting brighter... of course Rutherford did stupid stuff - but so did Israel - the nation which Jehovah used before! But we have a long way since then....... and all this unhappiness is about the POSITION - not being acknowledged as true anointed and appointed to lead?. I say their arrogance has made them lose their opportunity to lead. If they are not careful and do not repent they will be permanent ly rejected by Jehovah and will not be sealed before their death. They are suffering from the same sickness as Satan had ..... hence the OCD.

So many people in Africa live on less than 1 dollar a day..... so be thankful for what you have...... I was fortunate enough to be able to pay for my daughter's cancer operation which lasted the whole day. It was also without blood - 40 years ago. The fact that she did not take blood - this saved her life. I thank Jehovah for having that knowledge to guide me in the right direction. She would have died from anaphylactic shock - something I did not know about at the time.

Anna - The originator of the subject you referred me to - refers us to the Bilderberg's. If I remember correctly it was started by the Dutch king. Yes, all the most influential and richest companies and persons in the world attend this yearly meeting..... and I believe that they are honestly trying to use their money for what they think is a good cause for the world - unity under the united nations. They of course cannot foresee that it will bring the worst tribulation ever. The reason being that the idea sounds wonderful but it is just another version of communism. They call it 'communalism'. Communism together with atheism brought 40 million deaths in Russia, 100 million under Mao se Tung etc etc and today we have a good example in North Korea. Soros is also furthering the "no borders" agenda with his billions and has funded many organizations in USA to further this goal - some say to extent of 8 billion. Most organizations such as black lives matter, Antifa etc has been infiltrated. Soros is also funding chaos. He made his billions by creating chaos - funding organizations which generate dissidents or breaks banks and stock markets. There are a few countries (in east and west) where he is a convicted criminal because of his subversive activities. This happens when people have billions and use it for their own goals. The Agenda 21 document is available to peruse and the 2018 UN Compact on migration as well. The conservation side of it is a good idea.... but the rest is control of all human land, control of food and water, minerals, migration - basically everything and together with 5G surveillance and electronic money - everything you buy or sell will be visible. In China at present they know everything about you and one cannot leave the country without permission.... having the right political credentials. So in future we will not be able to buy or sell if we do not submit. This is of course part of this new agreement - journalists will be re-trained to only print what is positive about this plan or it will bring repercussions in court. If 20 countries do not sign - they will definitely circumvent it. How do I know this? We have a good example in EU. When EU was created it was only a trade organization - for unity in trade. When they wanted to make a parliament - France objected. They went behind the back of France and made agreements with all other European countries and therefore the EU parliament came into being - a dictatorship in Europe. France had to go along after this and is now a proponent of the plans . EU - I call it a dictatorship because the law-giving body has permanent members which cannot be voted off. They are making terrible decisions in EU and the members just have to accept or face the financial penalties. Journalists have been banned from next weeks UN signing of the Compact - only the ones who oppose the idea. Many journalists who have researched Islam and knows about its political agenda have already had their funds cut off on Mastercard, Visa, Patreon and others. THe idea that you cannot sell or buy is already here and most people do not know it! Many people are disappearing off Youtube because their accounts have been blocked or their funding cut off. If you allow the hate-speech of islam you are accepted and if you write against it - you are far right. ...... So people like Jordan Peterson who talks against the new gender politics (which is also part of this new philosophy ) - are classified by them as far-right . So this is where the far-left and far-right is the propaganda divide. All Islam countries are voting for this one world government because they think it is a way to forward their agenda of getting one world government under Islam..... but they will meet their nemeses when UN dictates one world religion where all religions are acceptable and those who do not agree are in trouble. The Bahai faith has its offices in UN building (they accept all religions as one religion and have been working with the UN since its inception) and the The Lucis Trust. Read up about it. It is basically a spiritistic organization.... Of course - the full extent of one world government may not be reached but UN is strong enough to push through its ideas. EU and UN are working together. Why do I say UN is strong enough? The new post modern philosophy with its gender studies and female studies and its cultural communism ideas is fostering revolution at most universities! It has been in our schools for at least 20 years and at our universities. But it is now so strong it cannot be counter balanced. The new gender studies in schools is promoted by the UN and EU and is everywhere. It teaches young children about gender change, oral sex and anal sex. The reason? The world population is a concern and consumerism is a concern to the UN. So any sex which does not bring forth babies is acceptable. Hence the new morality that UN will force on us. Countries in Africa which do not promote these gender studies have been cut off from UN funds..... and they need it the most. I can go on.... but This is the new reality ..... the plan is real.... how far it will materialize needs to be seen. But we all know Satan is a deceiver and many powerful organizations have been working behind the scenes to get their part of the pie. Monsanto/Bayer is going to provide the world with food......they already have more than quarter of the market... and we know how evil they are..... if you are familiar with their history. I have to go.... but I find it interesting that bible prophecy is accurate! Who understands these prophecies? Other organizations .... or Jehovah's very fallible servants.

Another session where it starts off with 'Jehovah's name' and then turns into a bashing session. Obsessed with bashing? What kind of Christian quality is that? most apostates have OCD - I recognize the signs immediately! They have an emotional sickness - they spend their time bashing........ So I will get back to the subject - that of Jehovah's name. There are now more than 1000 extant manuscripts where the pronunciation of name "jehova" appears. Any case, you need no other proof than the names Jeho-ram, jeho-safat, and hallelu-jah to know what the syllables were before. Plain common sense - unless you do not want to accept this and are smarter than the scholar who has been collecting copies of these extant copies all over the world.

I left this forum before because the hate is just too much for me here. It is a breading ground for all the dissenters. I prefer to discuss world affairs in light of prophecy where I do not have to deal with people who visit a site like this just to vent their emotions which makes them illogical and full of hatefulness. I have seen arrogance here that it is just too much to waste my time to deal with. Fools - yes fools - because the bible calls those foolish ones who spend their time in the pursuit of breaking down. They cannot think for themselves or ponder on the fact that the history of Israel is given as an example to us. They were the people of Jehovah (in a covenant relationship with him) but you can study all the IMPURITIES and injustice that infiltrated the nation despite their having a law to teach them what is right and wrong. Their management of course went without a hitch! They were just perfect - so perfect that Jehovah never had to bring all the curses upon them described in Deuteronomy! Despite all this waywardness of the nation and individuals, Jehovah managed to bring his plan to fruition to bring forth the Messiah - exactly on time! Today Jehovah also has a nation in a covenant relationship with him. Are they perfect! Hell NO! They are prone to the same sins as everyone else... but they are fulfilling the prophecies of warning the entire earth to remain NEUTRAL to world politics and remain within his principals. They definitely are PURE regarding the teachings of trinity, hellfire, pagan traditions, and immortality of the soul and many more. Are there wayward individuals whose hearts are not PURE - definitely. But Jehovah removes his spirit from them if they persist in their ways - especially if they are just critical and do not appreciate the good things they have learnt! They are like Esau and they do not have the qualities of the spirit. As far as I remember hate and criticism of brothers is not a fruit of the spirit. ..... I would just like to have a logical conversation without all these nasty qualities always sticking out as the main theme!

Claudia: I can only speak on conjecture of the future. Trump, I think, understands a little of what is going on.... but both parties have been changing laws to accommodate this Agenda 21 ...over the past 20 years. .If you go into the history of trump and the Clintons - there is a lot of blatant criminality in their past. So as Jehovah says -they are all part of the Satanic system. If prophecy indicates the UN global rule will win.... then they will win. ... no person can stop this. NGOs have already been working in most local municipal districts to implement this plan and NGOs have been receiving money from American taxpayers . Vast amounts of money has been disappearing from the American coffers. I watched a program of a forensic accountant which says that 21 trillion dollars is missing - more than American debt. I have also learnt that the IMF want to bring out one electronic money system - which will mean bankruptcy for USA because the US economy is propped up by the dollar exchange rate. This will mean that USA will have to bow to the real rulers of the world - the UN conglomerate and the financiers behind these utopian plans.

Interesting article and video..... On 11 December most countries will sign the UN Compact in Morocco. It is part of the "Agenda 21" plan for the 21 st century started in 1992. Read up about Agenda 21, agenda 2030 and about this Compact for Migration which will criminalize anyone saying anything against the UN plan. Those countries who signed are obliged to assist migrants financially and basically all people have a right to migrate....(no more borders). About 20 nations are now fighting it and will be forced by fines for not complying. It is part of the UN plan for one world government... Is this real? Or a conspiracy.... ? Watch this little video and give comments of the implications. I have the original documents and on this Youtube link you can also download the UN document "agenda 21". NGOs have already been receiving funds to implement it for the past 20 years and both republican and democratic governments has been changing laws to implement is..... It has been going on under our noses and the general public does not know. My interest in this is the fulfillment of prophecy which indicates the UN or coalition of governments to rule for short period of time before Armageddon. There are huge implications to this .... but first watch this little video to begin the discussion.... here is the link.....

Anti-Jehovah's Witness books and videos on YouTube make money-loving people an added little income. Money and hate is a great incentive..... Like satan, they think only of their own benefit and wish to destroy as much as possible. They definitely do not have the lowly spirit of Christ but like satan they have great anger. Our stance on neutrality is rare in the world. Most religions do combat or push a political agenda. This is a clear indication that we are the people spoken of in Isaiah 2:2,3,4 (In end of days there will be a people for Jehova's name and they will learn war no more) ... I do not know of another earthwide nation which refuses to kill or do combat With our warts and all we are serving the true god and following his instructions in a very imperfect way. We hope to improve our personalities in the 1000 years rule under Christ. These propagandists who spread hate for us are doing a good job for satan. I am almost sure that our neutrality, together with our stance on gender issues and feminism, will unleash a political hate for us before Armageddon starts. This gender fluidity and non-binary gender subjects together with hate for "patriarchal oppression" as well as the extreme feminism we see now is frightening. Watch a few videos of Prof Jordan Peterson on youtube to get an idea of what is going on... he says that Western society as we know it (based on Judeo-christian principles) is facing obliteration.

We have a saying in my language which translates that one can be caught by your own intelligence and get you in serious trouble! Allan is riding an ego wave here by treating people and relevant thoughts with distain. Everyone answering him is giving his inflated ego another puff of wind to get him bloated up further because he honestly believes he has superior intelligence. He has not carefully thought through all the processes of evolution because he would find the gaps. He only reads material which strengthens his ego - he believes he has superior intelligence and this is why he can understand evolution and us dummies can not. He does not care about morality - as his answers clearly indicate. Morality is going downhill at present in the world because more and more people are moving away from the values (right and wrong) of the bible. Soon we will have a free for all - like in the days before Jehovah gave the law to israel. The Mosaic law kept Israel cleaner than the nations around them. The nations were doing their own thing like burning their children, having sex with whomever they wanted and even violating their own children. Many of the ancient cultures had these practices because they made up their own good and bad values..... We need one set of values in the world to keep people from hurting each other, look after each other and cooperate to fix the earth - this is why I buy into the ideology of Jesus. No other ideology or philosophy can compare to this. Soon the worldly governments will push their values on us to try to maintain a measure of peace and security - but it is NOT going to work..... because wicked people always seek independence from any kind of moral value provided by the true God, Jehovah. False religion, greedy governments, financial opportunists and scientists with no moral values and integrity... they all will be removed!

Apologies for replying this late.... We only had hard winds on one day. We normally have freezing winds in February and Match but many have agreed that this year seems to be not as bad as usual (so far). I have been out on street work at the place we call "Gaza strip" and always dress warmly with layers of clothing, thick hat to cover the ears, thick gloves and scarf ....and very thick coat. With the hard wind I had to close my lips with my scarf because they were burning with dryness and cold from the wind... but it is really not as bad as it sounds if one dresses for the occasion. We have had snow and tonight maybe again. No blizzards so far....

I've seen a different kind of sloppiness from you - and it affects your integrity. You have made wild statements on this forum that were unfounded, such as, only Juda were returned back to their homeland etc... which is an important mistake and affects the outcome to the understanding of the subject 607 BCE. I bet you had the same sloppiness when you investigated that "extremely logical" arguments made by Dawkins. I am honest when I say - I have never met a Dawkins-disciple which has thought Darwinism through properly - they just take his 'expert' religion and follow it like a slave. As I have said before - these theories or other philosophies take the place of religion because one cannot believe in "nothing". I asked you a question before to see how committed you are to your religion. It is a 'blind faith' if it is not based on proper science..... even if most atheist professors and their disciples adhere to its "theories" and profess it as reality and fascistically do not tolerate any opposition in the universities. I am not going to argue this with you because you are committed to your 'faith' but if there is anything that is truthful in you, you will admit that the bone record is scant. It seems that nature made no mistakes at all - almost like a perfect god- most species appeared perfectly formed and every organ working together in perfect synchronization....no mistakes- perfect selections - almost like a theoretical god. There is no record of mistakes...and one would expect millions if we look at the number of different species around and the changes that were ongoing. What scientists cannot answer - and they know this because it is rarely talked about...... is that the different tissues and organs (liver, eyes etc.) developed over millions of years when the earth had " goldilocks" conditions..... long-term stable conditions for perfect selections... And yet, the complex sexual organs had to develop very quickly so the mammal can survive. What is more many mammals have such different sexual organs as to boggle the mind! Read up about it - it will stun you! Many are totally different to other organs. Evolution takes the easies path to survive...... why randomly develop separate sexual organs that function totally differently? .... when it is easier to have everything in one individual? What boggles the mind is that these organs developed totally separately by ...... chance...... and yet the one has sperm and the other eggs... and the shape of them is different and yet fits perfectly....and they can only reproduce when they are in the same area! Unthinking random selections that by chance happen to be totally different but happen to work perfectly together...and happen to develop in close proximity - theoretical god or miracles? And if you try to argue that nature could "cut and paste" the DNA language program - and add a little here and there to make up for the differences - then we need an intelligent programmer don't we - one who will cut and past just the right DNA sequence? Mathematics is also a 'language' which describes phenomena which cannot be described in other languages..... it depends on how the "tool" is utilized and helps to sift out ideas which are illogical..... but is it 'absolute' truth? Some treat math as a substitute god. Many theories for which we have calculations cannot be proven because humans are mortal and history has proven that we often make mistakes in our calculations/assumptions - and then one theory is replaced by another.... This is my last contribution on this subject since it has eaten too much of my time - I have an active life! Thanks to those who were kind and supporting.... I have looked at the Bible again and its consistency regarding the main theme tells me this is the only "reality". World conditions are also progressing as predicted since 1914 and greedy/arrogant scientists are main contributors to its problems - such as the poisons which are polluting our water resources and agricultural land, genetic engineering which is causing many sicknesses and may lead to world hunger because it is removing diversity, bombs which can destroy the earth over and over and much more... other frightening developments. So I will definitely not put my future in the hands of fallible men/scientists who are the brains behind the sciences which is contributing to the destruction of earth and sea (together with governments, false religions, and the economic system of the world which cares only for profits...or power) .........and all those uninformed humans who buy into its powers. The world is such as mess and rolling downhill quite fast.... Soon Jehovah will "prove to be" - as the meaning of his name indicates....the nations shall have to know that I am Jehovah.

WRONG! I agree with Foreigner - AlanF is arrogant about things he is ignorant off. He may have done number punching about the Biblical chronology and some dates but he does not have a clue about the living/social conditions of the time period - which is important to assess timelines as to what really happened on the ground – the practicalities of life such as travelling, dispersion of information etc. Also biblical history - he has no clue of this. He mocks JWs "mother" which is not our legally registered watchtower organization here on earth but actually refers to the heavenly organization in heaven - which of course he does not know of – so I give him credit for not knowing. But by his consistent, offensive and abrasive attitude we all know which "father" taught him his manners. John 8:44 (Anyone can err, I am not proud of my behavior either, but he is consistently derogatory/dismissive/disdainful) – which most aggressive atheists usually are… so he cannot help himself. It is hard to reason with someone with these personality qualities. The above quote of Alan is another FALSEHOOD which Mr AlanF is unaware of because he is following the ideas of useless Jewish scholars who deny their own history because they are atheist….. and the rest of the Jewish nation who do not follow the Torah (bible) but regard the Mishnah/Talmud as the highest authority - which is the human oral tradition - that Jesus rejected when he was on earth. Yes, not the entire the original nation of Israel returned and were scattered, which in modern times gave rise to claims of people's all over the world that they are the lost tribes because they have traditions similar to the Jews. What does the Bible itself say! The Bible gives a long list of the number of peoples who returned from Babylon – stipulating the family heads from the 12 tribes (and the goods). It also states that there were professing Israelites and Levites among them, who could not give proof of their tribal ancestry (genealogy), so there were some religious restrictions placed on the Levites. (Some of the scriptures quoted below.) The LAND was divided into 12 territories in the time of Joshua and by Jewish law – this land was to remain in the ownership of these tribes. A Jewish woman who inherited land had to marry within the tribe so the LAND would remain the property of the tribe - according to Mosaic LAW from Jehovah. So, Israel/Juda would not have come back from Babylon, after being punished by God for disobeying the law, and then break this very law by the rightful tribes being denied their land or another tribe taking over the land. Each tribe would have claimed their own ancestral land. So again what does the Bible say happened….. Prophecy Isiah 10 1. A remnant to return – : Jacob was the father of all 12 tribes 21 Only a remnant will return, The remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God. 22 For though your people, O Israel, Are as the grains of sand of the sea, Only a remnant of them will return. 2. Prophecies which promised return of members of all 12 tribes which came from the lions of Jacob – and Israel and Juda are mentioned separately - in many prophecies: Jer 30 – 3 For “look! the days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will gather the captives of my people, Israel and Judah,” says Jehovah, “and I will bring them back to the land that I gave to their forefathers, and they will possess it once again.”’” 10 “And you, my servant Jacob, do not be afraid,” declares Jehovah,“And do not be terrified, O Israel. For I will save you from far awayAnd your offspring from the land of their captivity. Jacob will return and be calm and undisturbed,With no one to make them afraid.” 18 This is what Jehovah says: “Here I am gathering the captives of the tents of Jacob, And I will have pity for his tabernacles. 3. Jehovah will collect them from the LANDS OF THEIR ENEMIES (not just the satrap of Babylon) – so they will return from very far away Ezekiel 39:27 When I bring them back from the peoples and collect them together from the lands of their enemies, I will also sanctify myself among them before the eyes of many nations.’ 4. They will rebuild the desolated cities and inhabit them and the LAND will be cultivated Amos 9: 14 + 15 will gather back the captives of my people Israel, And they will rebuild the desolated cities and inhabit them; They will plant vineyards and drink their wine, And make gardens and eat their fruit.’ 15 ‘I will plant them on their land,And they will never again be uprooted From their land that I have given them,’ says Jehovah your God.” Juda mentioned separately here: Zep 2:7 5. When the Sabbaths were paid on the land: 2Chronicles 36: 21 – Sabbaths paid to fulfill Jehovah’s word spoken by Jeremiah, until the land had paid off its sabbaths. All the days it lay desolate it kept sabbath, to fulfill 70 years. 6. Cyrus took Title of the ‘king of the four corners of the earth’ on New Year festival Nissan 538 BCE……an emperor with 120 vassals/satraps. Cyrus appointed Darius the Mede as the regent of the satrap of Babylon directly after the fall of Babylon Sept/Oct 539BCE. Cyrus came back for the New Years Festival. After the 12 day New Year’s Festival he issued his edict for nations to take their Gods back to their homelands – Israel and Juda could go back to rebuild the temple. EZRA 1:2 “This is what King Cyrus of Persia says, ‘Jehovah the God of the heavens has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and he has commissioned me to build him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. (Read my previous comment on how important this New Year’s Festival was in Babylon and also how the prediction of 2-horned goat called Media and Persia would overthrow the king of Babylon) 7. How large was the remnant which were gathered from the empire? 42,360 men and an additional 7,537 slaves and singers made the initial trip back- which took at least 4 months. This would bring the number of the first part of the “remnant” to return to over 200,000 people when one includes wives and children. Some came from the farthest reaches of the empire - from all over Persia Ezra 1:5 to Ezra 2 In Ezra to it tells us that Judah and Benjamin, who came from the jurisdictional district of Babylon, took their own cities in Judah and Jerusalem – it names the elders of the families From verse 3: gives us the leader’s names from the other tribes of Israel. Verse 2b: The number of the Israelite men included:…….. Verse 58 + 59 – some were not able to verify their ancestry! All the temple servants and the sons of the servants of Solʹo·mon were 392. 59 And these went up from Tel-meʹlah, Tel-harʹsha, Cheʹrub, Adʹdon, and Imʹmer, but they were unable to verify their paternal house and their origin, as to whether they were Israelites: Also verse 62: These looked for their records to establish their genealogy, but they did not find them, so they were disqualified from the priesthood. 63 The governor told them that they could not eat from the most holy things until there was a priest who could consult the Uʹrim and Thumʹmim. We see that this repatriation was not a mish-mash operation but done meticulously so everyone could claim their land and verify their tribal origins…. Jehovah inspired his Bible – it is all there! It is a pity that scholars do not respect this book more! It is just a number punching exercise for them 64 The total number of the entire congregation was 42,360, 65 apart from their male and female slaves, who were 7,337; they also had 200 male and female singers. 66 Their horses were 736, their mules 245, 67 their camels 435, their donkeys 6,720. 68 When they arrived at the house of Jehovah in Jerusalem, some of the heads of the paternal houses made voluntary offerings+ for the house of the true God, to rebuild it on its own site.

Great job dear! Very interesting. I like it when we share information where everyone can learn something... even if we do not always agree. Good Move!

We are not talking about the city of Cain or the nomadic settlements in the time of Abraham - (although Ur was a city state and Melchizedek was a priest-king of Jerusalem /Salem) in his time. We are talking about the culture of cities-states which was started by Nimrod (built many cities in Babylon and Assyria) and formed the network of cities which became the Sumerian, Assyrian and Babylonian empires. comparing apples with .... In Greece they also had city-states...... Athens, A polis consisted of an urban centre, often fortified and with a sacred centre built on a natural acropolis or harbour, which controlled a surrounding territory (chora) of land. The term polis has, therefore, been translated as ‘city-state’ Other cultures had a similar social and political structure, notably, the Babylonians, Etruscans and Phoenicians, among the most important were Athens, Sparta, Corinth, Thebes, Syracuse, Aegina, Rhodes, Argos, Eretria, and Elis. Abraham was looking forward to a 'city' - as described by Paul. This refers to a government with a king which is a priest - like Melchizedek! Later cities: the function of the priests became separated from that of the king.... Most cities had large temples where priests fed and clothed the God of the city and tended to the "God" and people who came for predictions. All were polytheists - so there were many shrines to the other Gods.

1. The Jews from the 10 tribe were scattered ALL over the empire - many of those taken by the Syrian empire were put in Elam and the cities of the Medes....and the river Gozan. Look on a map - this is at the outskirts of the empire territory. The root cause of the ten tribe deportation is given in 2 Kings 18: 11,12 together with the names of the areas they were deported to. The root cause for Israel was the SAME reason for the exile of the Juda - disobedience to the law and the pollution of the land. They broke the covenant of Jehovah excessively with their deity worship. NOT a whim of Jehovah for them to have a change...of ruler Your 'theory' above - not true. It must have taken some time to reach them in the far reaches of the empire! The call went out to ALL of israel to return. 2. 617 BCE - Jehoiachin - The upper class of the population is taken to the Babylon - including the metal workers, mighty warriors, craftsmen, court officials princes, including Daniel and his 3 friends, Ezekiel and their families.... the numbers for the men are given in the scriptures I cited in my response above - the number of men as the numbers of the wives and children are not given. I have already given you the proof that Ezekiel (Ez 1) visited a community of the first group of exiles at the river Chebar...... Not all these people were settled in the city of Babylon itself and they were not in a position to hear any court gossip....too far away... look on your map where they were...(there were two more incursions by Nebuchadnezzar after this - most probably taking all the smaller cities around Jerusalem.) 3. The poor people who were left behind under Zedekia and the prophet Jeremiah - together with a group of high officials - could have been spared being removed from the land BUT as you rightly said - they did not listen to Jeremiah/Jehovah. However! The first group of exiles had already left for Babylon almost 10 years before - it was not the entire group that would have been spared the exile as you have implied in your previous answers. The temple of worship was destroyed and all the rest in the city were taken. Thousands who took refuge in Jerusalem during the 18 month siege (some Jewish sources say 30) died from famine and sickness, war injuries, and the fire which destroyed the temple ( Lam 4:10 With their own hands compassionate women have cooked their own children I remember reading that the Babylonians catapulted dead bodies, which Jews had thrown over the wall (most probably swollen in the heat), they were projected back into the city - the conditions must have been absolutely devastating - especially for Jews who were not supposed to touch a dead body. The Talmud says that almost a million died.... I believe this is exaggerated but it gives one a good idea of the devastation - apart from those who died in other cities. Zedekiah's sons and many, officials, priests etc. were put to death. Only 832 men survived Jerusalem with the remnants of their families. Jer 52:29 (In the 18th year of Nebuchadnezzar, 832 people were taken from Jerusalem). Jerusalem and its land was definitely left desolate. Jer 9:11 11 “I will make Jerusalem a heap of ruins, a haunt of jackals;and I will lay waste the towns of Judah so no one can live there.” 13...The Lord said, “It is because they have forsaken my law, Jer 32: 43 - a wasteland without man and beast Several archeologists confirm that archeological surveys confirm there was not a single known case where a town of Judah was continuously occupied because of the violence that was visited on the Judah. City after city was ceased to be inhabited at this time - some never to be reoccupied. The above scriptures and events prove why the countryside was almost empty - all the deaths and the exile of those who survived - that hegemony was NOT the main reason for the exile but it was disobedience to Jehovah that led to the total devastation of their capital city and its land.

All cities of significance were city-states with a priest-king in highest position in earlier times - especially Babylon because it was the center of worship since its inception! Mostly a place with fortified walls. Later a city state became the central part of a large district it administered.... with a priesthood and a king and a temple to the main deity of the city. Most cities had many shrines to multiple gods but each city had its principal deity - the supreme god of the city. The 10 tribes were scattered all over the empire (and the Judeans at the Chebar river )..... Most of the exports and imports were always done by river or canal because this was faster than a cart. They were ideally situated to 'produce' and export. Pottery could also be practiced at a river but the metal workers were highly valued and would be attached to the capital city because they could manufacture weapons.

1. After initial fall of Jerusalem: 10,000 princes, 7000 mighty warriors, and every craftsman and metal worker which were 1000 - 2kings 24:11-16 - He left the poor behind. A separate number of high ranking MEN are named in 2 Kings 24:14 and these numbered 3,023 Did you notice something about all these numbers? They were only the family heads (men). The children and wives were not numbered. 2. After approximately 10 years (in 607) - Most of the remaining ones were removed from the land - 2Kings 25:11 it is described as "the rest of the population". I do not know where you got your "scholarly ' information - but it is not accurate! Additionally - Ezekiel 1:1 Now it happened in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God. Verse 2: In the fith year of exile of Jehoiachin the word of Jehovah came to Ezekiel by the river Chebar……. Some of the first captives were already living at Chebar! 3. The tablets you mentioned above - I quote: “The tablets shed light on the Judeans’ contributions, detailing taxes paid, debts owed, credits accumulated and trade in fruits and other commodities.” These commodities will include agricultural produce, flax (for linen clothing) and food for many animals - which will include animal husbandry. I have a peeve with you - you think if you keep on denying something and ignoring something it will become true. What was the root cause for the exile.... please answer...... their religious disobedience or was the reason that God had a whim to put them in a foreign land for no reason at all?

The 70 years ended when Cyrus took the title of "King of Babylon, Sumer and Akkad and of the four corners of the world" on NEW YEARS DAY (12 day yearly festival) Nissan 538 BCE. Cyrus started his campaign in September 539 BCE when he crossed the Tigris with the subsequent Battle of Opis. After this he went after Nabonidus who had fled to Sippar - who managed to get away again from Sippar. Babylon fell next. Later Nabonidus gave himself up at Babylon because he had no allies. Cyrus issued his edict shortly after his crowning allowing the Jews and other nations to take their gods with them - to their home.

This scripture in Jeremia also refers to the LAND - also read Isiah 1 which I quoted earlier in a previous contribution - the LAND would be without the usual planting. The root cause:: Israel's problem was not hegemony - but religious. God did not send them to Babylon because he wanted a new ruler for them on a whim - it was a punishment because they had defiled the LAND with bad religious practice and not keeping the Sabbaths. So after 70 years when they return and the land is becoming active like before

These dates were made to coincide with Egyptian dates. As I have pointed out many times before, the Egyptian chronology is faulty as it was laid down in stone shortly after Egyptology started in the early 19th century. There are many dissidents of this chronology but they are not allowed to dig in Egypt..... there is intellectual monopoly on this. The most accurate way to test the date of 607 BCE is to go to the Greek sources (olympiads) - they are more accurate and the PIVITOL date is the death of Cyrus from which on can determine the length of his rule and how long it would take the Israelite nation to return to their LAND.

Yes - the domination of Israel is the primary reason for the mention of the 70 years. Babylon put themselves on "high" - above the nation of Jehovah (which is part of the main theme of the Bible). All the prophecies in the bible which indicate other nations (empires) dominating Jehovah's people has to do with the 'gentile times". How gentiles would dominate the nation of God.

If you read my contribution (above) you will notice that Darius was appointed as soon as the city was taken - it would become a satrap in a greater empire - hence the title of king of Babylon, Sumer and Akkad and of the four corners of the world - an imperial title. He took the title in Nissan 538 BCE.

The bible says 70 or 80 years..... but one never finds a generation where everyone is the same age - they all vary.... born in different years.... so they overlap.... 80 if one is strong and 100 if exceptionally strong!.... something I will not see!

I appreciate Nana, Anna and Scholar quoting the relevant scriptures and thanks Allan Smith for some new ideas on the table. I liked your thoughts on the festivals because the entire history of the nation was centered on the celebration of the festivals (Sabbath Year included). Israel was a nation dedicated to Jehovah - they neglected it and went into exile - but the promise of Jehovah was that they would be repatriated back to the land so they can restart their pure worship to him and rebuild the temple. AlanF is too quick to "poo" other people’s thoughts but I see he makes a lot of wild hmm… “scholarly” statements for which he has no proof for either! They just lived in cities?? LOL Get real AlanF... it was not 2017 AD …..but 537 BCE. By your comments I can see that you do not have any understanding of how the people lived.... Dear AllanF this is for you: When one reads into the scriptures what you ‘want’ it is called speculation. I quoted several scriptures referring to ‘70 years’ and you concluded it only refers to ‘hegemony’. Please look again at:- Jeremiah 25:11 refers to the LAND which must be desolate for 70 years. “And this whole LAND shall be a desolation.” Most of the inhabitants were removed so there was no large scale planting and the land was not kept clean of wild animals. When they went back to their land they had to clear it to start planting and get on with everyday life – as prophesied. It does not mean the land was barren of people but that it was laid waste. Isaih 1: Look! Jehovah is emptying the land* and making it desolate. He turns it upside down* and scatters its inhabitants. 2 It will be the same for everyone: The people as well as the priest,The servant and his master, The servant and her mistress,The buyer and the seller,The lender and the borrower,The creditor and the debtor. 3 The land will be completely emptied;It will be completely plundered, For Jehovah has spoken this word. 4 The land mourns; it is wasting away. The productive land withers; it is fading away. The prominent people of the land wither. 5 The land has been polluted by its inhabitants, For they have bypassed the laws, Why is your reasoning that these scriptures ONLY refer to ‘hegemony’ faulty? When in doubt, always go back to :- root cause: what was the root cause for their exile? Definitely not because Jehovah had a whim to put them under foreign hegemony without a reason…. The reason was because of the law regarding the LAND which must lie fallow every 7th year; together with this, they were not obeying other laws…. and the land on which they were living, was defiled – according to scripture above. Jehovah required 70 years by the time of their exile. The number 70 is mentioned too many times to ignore. If Jehovah uses numbers so many times then he meant to have his 70 years…. Jehovah’s consistency of action based on his word is what gave Daniel trust in this words and he discerned that the end of the 70 years were close. I agree with one of the other contributors on the forum that to give a month to 6 month leeway is acceptable (depending, from where one calculates the year) - it should be very close to 70 years. More discrepancy than this would be unacceptable – not because Jehovah made the error but because we are making an error somewhere. From whatever angle one looks at this debate: from hegemony side, or the land (Jerusalem) being desolate, there is more than enough evidence for 537BCE. Cyrus entered from the north when the Tigris river was lower (September) and the battle of Opis took place in October 539 BCE so he could get control of the Median wall. Nabonidus fled to Sippar. Cyrus followed him to Sippar and so the hegemony was not ‘complete’ while Nabonidus was free. He later gave himself up in Babylon because he had no allies. Cyrus went ahead and appointed his Satrap, Darius the Mede, and the administrators of the new government. Then in, 538 BCE, when ALL Babylonia was in his control, Cyrus came back to assume the imperial title “King of Babylon, king of Sumer and Akkad, king of the four corners of the world"” …. All Babylonian kings were inaugurated ONLY in the temple of Marduk since the earliest of ancient times on New Year’s day – some of the Syrian kings were also inaugurated in this temple. So it was on the following New Year that he took this title 538 BCE. The Babylonian nation was so superstitious that they would not accept a ruler over the city/state if this festival had not been celebrated. Cyrus knew this; he was related to the Babylonian kings on the Median side. The Median King, Darius, was installed as his regent (Daniel’s vision talks of a two headed beast – the Median and Persian.) Scholars accept Berossos - who is not really a reliable historian and living 300 years after Daniel but they reject the history of Daniel who was definitely there at the time. Daniel used some ancient Akkadian words that were only in use in Babylon by highly educated administrators. (Nebuchadnezzar started the practice of rebuilding old temples, did archeology of these temples and kept the Arcadian language as a matter of nationalistic pride and tradition. ) Scholars will not take this into account but Bible students know this empire comprised two empires in one – they believe Daniel and his vision of Persia. The situation was as follows: the nation of Babylon (very superstitious) hated Nabonidus, who was popular at the beginning of his reign, but popularity turned to hate when he built (and restored several) a temple to the moon god in Tema, oasis in Arabia, and left his son Belshazzar to rule in his place. Nabonidus was absent so much in a period of ten years that he did not celebrate the NEW YEAR - which was sacrilege! - It was the most important festival for the king and the nation on the calendar!! On the day of Akitu he had to renew his kingship by humbling himself in front of Marduk in front of all the people! The massive festival was 12 days long. Priests of Marduk taught that Marduk will punish the nation for the king’s deviance. Cyrus was smart and did what was required – bowed to Marduk on the new year’s day and was loved by the people for taking his crown in this 12 day festival - a happy time for the people. He was seen as a great liberator. This is extremely significant - if one knows the Babylonian mind and how they operated. This festival was in Nissan for 12 days. 538 BCE Cyrus thereafter issued his Decree in 538 BCE for the return of the Jews. This date is corroborated all over the internet…..go check it out. So what “process” did this repatriation involve? In 538 BCE: In the time of Cyrus and Nabonidus, the logistics were definitely NOT what they are today as Allen Smith pointed out but it fell on deaf ears. Yes, they had technology like the catapult, an excellent canal system (for water) for agriculture, the hanging gardens with its pumps etc. but logistics were time consuming due to transport constraints – not the world we know today... Rushed communications were usually sent by couriers on horseback via a network of routes – other methods were slower. Letters were dictated and inscribed and baked in Cuneiform and sealed and sent out to the 120 satraps mentioned by Ezra (evidence of 20 only came somewhat later). Each Satrap would need a few weeks for the news to be spread to all Jewish enclaves. The territory was large and the 10 tribes were widely scattered during the Assyrian rule. The call went out to ALL of Israel not just the Jews (name Jew comes from Judah at the time). The Jews then had to organize themselves: where to meet so they could move in a group together (a trek of 3-4 months around the desert – the same way Abraham came into the promised land) so they needed to prepare their logistics…. food, tents, protection, for the move with many animals which needed time to graze every day etc. Preparation is needed to take the most needed things, and extra carts made, to establish a home on the other side. For the first large group of people to arrive in Jerusalem and start to work the LAND and prune desolate fruit trees, open up wells etc – could easily have taken a year. The LAND must not be fallow and must start to produce to break the desolate cycle. This is the reason I accepted the date of 537 BCE many years ago. I am not a scholar but an autodidact. One must account for human processes. Number punching scholars are not prepared to do this. Reasonableness about the lifestyle of the time; together with the confirmed historical dates, is the logical way to go. In modern days – reasonableness and a thinking through of the process is one of the major requirements for logical evaluation when judging a case in court. The date of 537BCE cannot be disproved because no one knows exactly how quickly the Jews moved to Jerusalem. Those moved by Jehovah’s spirit could have been so excited that they organized themselves faster than we would expect. Reasonableness and logical thinking of the steps needed to start a new life in a neglected place, helps to make the right conclusion. But if you are not reasonable then one makes wild statements about 1914, for example: the scope of disasters in the 100 years before 1914. This has no substance and comes from a deep desire to claim that JWs are wrong about 1914. Whether by accident or not – the evidence on ground zero proves that Jehovah helped the slave to understand this. Reputable historians that are scholars have said the 1914 was the year the world changed forever. To watch these fights about 1914 by such early books as written in 1823 to me is silly (archeology was not properly established then). Archeology started about 1801 when Napoleon went into Egypt…..and people made a connection between the pyramids and the bible (and by the way most bible lovers were fascinated with this for a century – it was part of the social talk of the era. So when you argue about these things it is a ploy away from the subject (but related) to discredit JWs early history….. If anyone looks back at the early history of any organization one can discredit it because we look at it with the knowledge we have at present…. which is not a fair and proper judgement because one should understand the ‘era’ they were living in to make this judgment. (I think they did pretty well if one thinks that they made many connections just on the knowledge from the Bible without archeology.) An awakening – but all the puzzle was not yet fitted……they did a good job with what they had….because they had a love for the bible and God. At the time the early JWs wrote in all sincerity up to 130 years ago – they did not think that some ‘modern’ scholar would come a hundred years later and ‘nitpick’ every word to check out the ‘semantics’. The archeology available today has only come through the translation of thousands of tablets – especially the last 40 years….. Reign of Cyrus (538BCE when he was crowned king of all the earth): Excerpt from Josephus: In the first year of the reign of Cyrus (1) which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon, God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity Conditions during the captivity - ALLEN F has it wrong! The boys from the ruling class were trained at the palace of Nebuchadnezzar. The largest settlements were villages located along the Chebar River (which was an irrigation channel for agriculture). The Jews (Juda) were allowed to live together in communities and they were allowed to farm and make all sorts of things to earn a living. Some became rich… They needed to keep their farming skills for their return…to work the land again. They would have planted vegetables and feed for animals. One can get almost 4 generations in 70 years – if they did not keep up their skills for farming their children will go back to Israel with no skills to sow etc. I see Jehovah’s hand in the circumstance that many of the Judeans were placed at the Chebar River and Ezekiel was there with them - if I remember correctly. Jeremia encouraged the Jews to get on with life in captivity - Jer 29:4-11 4 Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, to all who were carried away captive, whom I have caused to be carried away from Jerusalem to Babylon: 5 Build houses and dwell in them; plant gardens and eat their fruit. 6 Take wives and beget sons and daughters; and take wives for your sons and give your daughters to husbands, so that they may bear sons and daughters -- that you may be increased there, and not diminished. 7 And seek the peace of the city where I have caused you to be carried away captive, and pray to the LORD for it; for in its peace you will have peace. 8 For thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Do not let your prophets and your diviners who are in your midst deceive you, nor listen to your dreams which you cause to be dreamed. 9 For they prophesy falsely to you in My name; I have not sent them, says the LORD. 10 For thus says the LORD: After seventy years are completed at Babylon, I will visit you and perform My good word toward you, and cause you to return to this place. I have a peeve with academics: (Now this is my peeve with many academics: they just care about ‘dates’ and are totally disconnected to the practicalities of everyday life in the ‘period’ they research. A good example (unrelated to this subject) is Western scholars - when they talk about Islam… claim that Mohammad never existed and the entire religious system was developed over a period of 200 years by other leaders….Why? Because there are NO secular written references to him and NO secular dates - except the writings attributed to Mohammad by himself and his followers. They do not understand tribal and nomadic life. Other kingdoms in Arabia have king lists and histories but these tribes were not capable of writing an accurate historical biography immediately after Mohammad’s death. In Mohammad’s case – the sword - was the most efficient way of spreading the faith – not writing. Later, when scholars from Persia etc. was added to the fold – more writings and analytics appeared and many additional teachings from other faiths were added to the writings which already had been plagiarized from many other religions). Similar in this case – there are processes at stake we no-one can disprove or prove so we accept the most logical - which also has living evidence on ground zero.