Anti-Jehovah's Witness books and videos on YouTube make money-loving people an added little income.  Money and hate is a great incentive..... 

Like satan, they think only of their own benefit and wish to destroy as much as possible.  They definitely do not have the lowly spirit of Christ but like satan they have great anger.

Our stance on neutrality is rare in the world. Most religions do combat or push a political agenda.   This is a clear indication that we are the people spoken of in Isaiah 2:2,3,4 (In end of days there will be a people for Jehova's name and they will learn war no more) ... I do not know of another earthwide nation which refuses to kill or do combat  With our warts and all we are serving the true god and following his instructions in a very imperfect way. 

We hope to improve our personalities in the 1000 years rule under Christ. These propagandists who spread hate for us are doing a good job for satan. I am almost sure that our neutrality, together with our stance on gender issues and feminism, will unleash a political hate for us before Armageddon starts.  

This gender fluidity and non-binary gender subjects together with hate for "patriarchal oppression" as well as the extreme feminism we see now is frightening.  Watch a few videos of Prof Jordan Peterson on youtube to get an idea of what is going on...  he says that Western society as we know it (based on Judeo-christian principles) is facing obliteration. 

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

t's not about intelligence, Allen. It's about integrity and honesty

We have a saying in my language which translates that one can be caught by your own intelligence and get you in serious trouble!   Allan is riding an ego wave here by treating people and  relevant thoughts with distain.  

Everyone answering him is giving his inflated ego another puff of wind to get him bloated up further because he honestly believes he has superior intelligence.     

He has not carefully thought through all the processes of evolution because he would find the gaps. He only reads material which strengthens his ego - he believes he has superior intelligence and this is why he can understand evolution and us dummies can not.

He does not care about morality - as his answers clearly indicate.   Morality is going downhill at present in the world because more and more people are moving away from the values (right and wrong) of the bible.  Soon we will have a free for all - like in the days before Jehovah gave the law to israel.

The Mosaic law kept Israel cleaner than the nations around them.  The nations were doing their own thing like burning their children, having sex with whomever they wanted and even violating their own children.  Many of the ancient cultures had these practices because they made up their own good and bad values.....  

We need one set of values in the world to keep people from hurting each other, look after each other and cooperate to fix the earth - this is why I buy into the ideology of Jesus.  No other ideology or philosophy can compare to this.  Soon the worldly governments will push their values on us to try to maintain a measure of peace and security - but it is NOT going to work..... because wicked people always seek independence from any kind of moral  value provided by the true God, Jehovah.   False religion, greedy governments, financial opportunists and scientists with no moral values and  integrity...  they all will be removed!

Apologies for replying this late....  We only had hard winds on one day.  We normally have freezing winds in February and Match but many have agreed that this year seems to be not as bad as usual (so far).  I have been out on street work at the place we call "Gaza strip" and always dress warmly with layers of clothing, thick hat to cover the ears, thick gloves and scarf ....and  very thick coat.  With the hard wind I had to close my lips with my scarf because they were burning with dryness and cold from the wind... but it is really not as bad as it sounds if one dresses for the occasion.  We have had snow and tonight maybe again. No blizzards so far....

12 hours ago, AlanF said:

True, but that's no excuse for gross ignorance or sloppiness.

I've seen a different kind of sloppiness from you - and it affects your integrity.     You have made wild statements on this forum that were unfounded, such as, only Juda were returned back to their homeland etc... which is an important mistake and affects the outcome to the understanding of the subject  607 BCE. 

I bet you had the same sloppiness when you investigated that "extremely logical" arguments made by Dawkins.  I am honest when I say - I have never met a Dawkins-disciple which has thought Darwinism through properly - they just take his 'expert' religion and follow it like a slave. As I have said before - these theories or other philosophies take the place of religion because one cannot believe in "nothing".

I asked you a question before to see how committed you are to your religion. It is a 'blind faith' if it is not based on proper science..... even if most atheist professors and their disciples adhere to its "theories" and profess it as reality and fascistically do not tolerate any opposition in the universities.

I am not going to argue this with you because you are committed to your 'faith' but if there is anything that is truthful in you, you will admit that the bone record is scant.  It seems that nature made no mistakes at all - almost like a perfect god- most species appeared perfectly formed and every organ working together in perfect synchronization....no mistakes- perfect selections - almost like a theoretical god.   There is no record of  mistakes...and one would expect millions if we look at the number of different species around and the changes that were ongoing. 

What scientists cannot answer - and they know this because it is rarely talked about...... is that the different tissues and organs (liver, eyes etc.) developed over millions of years when the earth had " goldilocks" conditions..... long-term stable conditions for perfect selections... And yet, the complex sexual organs had to develop very quickly so the mammal can survive.  What is more many mammals have such different sexual organs as to boggle the mind!  Read up about it - it will stun you! Many are totally different to other organs.  

Evolution takes the easies path to survive...... why randomly develop separate sexual organs that function totally differently? .... when it is easier to have everything in one individual?  What boggles the mind is that these organs developed totally separately by ...... chance...... and yet the one has sperm and the other eggs... and the shape of them is different and yet fits perfectly....and they can only reproduce when they are in the same area!   Unthinking random selections that by chance happen to be totally different but happen to work perfectly together...and happen to develop in close proximity -    theoretical god or miracles?   

And if you try to argue that nature could "cut and paste" the DNA language program - and add a little here and there to make up for the differences - then we need an intelligent programmer don't we - one who will cut and past just the right DNA sequence?  

Mathematics is also a 'language' which describes phenomena which cannot be described in other languages..... it depends on how the "tool" is utilized and helps to sift out ideas which are illogical..... but is it  'absolute' truth?  Some treat math as a substitute god. Many theories for which we have calculations cannot be proven because humans are mortal and history has proven that we often make mistakes in our calculations/assumptions - and then one theory is replaced by another....

This is my last contribution on this subject since it has eaten too much of my time - I have an active life!

Thanks to those who were kind and supporting....   I have looked at the Bible again and its consistency regarding the main theme tells me this is the only "reality".   World conditions are also progressing as predicted since 1914  and greedy/arrogant scientists are main contributors to its problems - such as the poisons which are polluting our water resources and agricultural land, genetic engineering which is causing many sicknesses and may lead to world hunger because it is removing diversity, bombs which can destroy the earth over and over and much more...   other frightening developments.

So I will definitely not put my future in the hands of fallible men/scientists  who are the brains behind the sciences which is contributing to the destruction of earth and sea (together with governments, false religions, and the economic system of the world which cares only for profits...or power) .........and all those uninformed humans who buy into its powers. 

The world is such as mess and rolling downhill quite fast....  Soon Jehovah will "prove to be" - as the meaning of his name indicates....the nations shall have to know that I am Jehovah.

On ‎1‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 3:51 AM, AlanF said:

I said above, this is entirely irrelevant. That scattering occurred a hundred years earlier, and those Jews were not part of the Return from Babylon.

WRONG!  

I agree with Foreigner -  AlanF is arrogant about things he is ignorant off.  He may have done number punching about the Biblical chronology and some dates but he does not have a clue about the living/social conditions of the time period  - which is important to assess timelines as to what really happened on the ground – the practicalities of life such as travelling, dispersion of information etc. 

Also biblical history - he has no clue of this. He mocks JWs  "mother" which is not our legally registered watchtower organization here on earth but actually refers to the heavenly organization in heaven - which of course he does not know of – so I give him credit for not knowing.  But by his consistent, offensive and abrasive attitude we all know which "father" taught him his manners. John 8:44    (Anyone can err, I am not proud of my behavior either, but he is consistently derogatory/dismissive/disdainful) – which most aggressive atheists usually are… so he cannot help himself. It is hard to reason with someone with these personality qualities.

The above quote of Alan is another FALSEHOOD which Mr AlanF is unaware of because he is following the ideas of useless Jewish scholars who deny their own history because they are atheist….. and the rest of the Jewish nation who do not follow the Torah (bible) but regard the Mishnah/Talmud as the highest authority - which is the human oral tradition - that Jesus rejected when he was on earth.

Yes, not the entire the original nation of Israel returned and were scattered, which in modern times gave rise to claims of people's all over the world that they are the lost tribes because they have traditions similar to the Jews.

What does the Bible itself say!

The Bible gives a long list of the number of peoples who returned from Babylon – stipulating the family heads from the 12 tribes (and the goods). It also states that there were professing Israelites and Levites among them, who could not give proof of their tribal ancestry (genealogy), so there were some religious restrictions placed on the Levites. (Some of the scriptures quoted below.)

The LAND was divided into 12 territories in the time of Joshua and by Jewish law – this land was to remain in the ownership of these tribes.  A Jewish woman who inherited land had to marry within the tribe so the LAND would remain the property of the tribe - according to Mosaic LAW from Jehovah. So, Israel/Juda would not have come back from Babylon, after being punished by God for disobeying the law, and then break this very law by the rightful tribes being denied their land or another tribe taking over the land. Each tribe would have claimed their own ancestral land.

So again what does the Bible say happened…..

Prophecy Isiah 10

1.   A remnant to return – :  Jacob was the father of all 12 tribes

²¹  Only a remnant will return, The remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God. ²²  For though your people, O Israel, Are as the grains of sand of the sea, Only a remnant of them will return.

2.  Prophecies which promised return of members of all 12 tribes which came from the lions of Jacob – and Israel and Juda are mentioned separately - in many prophecies:

Jer 30 –

³  For “look! the days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will gather the captives of my people, Israel and Judah,” says Jehovah, “and I will bring them back to the land that I gave to their forefathers, and they will possess it once again.”’”

¹⁰  “And you, my servant Jacob, do not be afraid,” declares Jehovah,“And do not be terrified, O Israel. For I will save you from far awayAnd your offspring from the land of their captivity. Jacob will return and be calm and undisturbed,With no one to make them afraid.”

¹⁸  This is what Jehovah says: “Here I am gathering the captives of the tents of Jacob, And I will have pity for his tabernacles.

3.   Jehovah will collect them from the LANDS OF THEIR ENEMIES (not just the satrap of Babylon) – so they will return from very far away

Ezekiel 39:27

When I bring them back from the peoples and collect them together from the lands of their enemies, I will also sanctify myself among them before the eyes of many nations.’

4.    

They will rebuild the desolated cities and inhabit them and the LAND will be cultivated

Amos 9: 14 + 15

will gather back the captives of my people Israel, And they will rebuild the desolated cities and inhabit them; They will plant vineyards and drink their wine, And make gardens and eat their fruit.’ ¹⁵  ‘I will plant them on their land,And they will never again be uprooted From their land that I have given them,’ says Jehovah your God.”

Juda mentioned separately here: Zep 2:7

5.   When the Sabbaths were paid on the land:

2Chronicles 36: 21 – Sabbaths paid

to fulfill Jehovah’s word spoken by Jeremiah, until the land had paid off its sabbaths. All the days it lay desolate it kept sabbath, to fulfill 70 years.

6.   Cyrus took Title of the ‘king of the four corners of the earth’ on New Year festival Nissan 538 BCE……an emperor with 120 vassals/satraps. Cyrus appointed Darius the Mede as the regent of the satrap of Babylon directly after the fall of Babylon Sept/Oct 539BCE. Cyrus came back for the New Years Festival. After the 12 day New Year’s Festival he issued his edict for nations to take their Gods back to their homelands – Israel and Juda could go back to rebuild the temple.

EZRA 1:2

“This is what King Cyrus of Persia says, ‘Jehovah the God of the heavens has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and he has commissioned me to build him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah.

(Read my previous comment on how important this New Year’s Festival was in Babylon and also how the prediction of 2-horned goat called Media and Persia would overthrow the king of Babylon)

7.   How large was the remnant which were gathered from the empire?

42,360 men and an additional 7,537 slaves and singers made the initial trip back- which took at least 4 months.  This would bring the number of the first part of the “remnant” to return to over 200,000 people when one includes wives and children. Some came from the farthest reaches of the empire - from all over Persia

Ezra 1:5 to Ezra 2

In Ezra to it tells us that Judah and Benjamin, who came from the jurisdictional district of Babylon, took their own cities in Judah and Jerusalem – it names the elders of the families

From verse 3: gives us the leader’s names from the other tribes of Israel.

Verse 2b: The number of the Israelite men included:……..

Verse 58 + 59 – some were not able to verify their ancestry!

All the temple servants and the sons of the servants of Solʹo·mon were 392. ⁵⁹  And these went up from Tel-meʹlah, Tel-harʹsha, Cheʹrub, Adʹdon, and Imʹmer, but they were unable to verify their paternal house and their origin, as to whether they were Israelites: 

Also verse 62:

These looked for their records to establish their genealogy, but they did not find them, so they were disqualified from the priesthood. ⁶³  The governor told them that they could not eat from the most holy things until there was a priest who could consult the Uʹrim and Thumʹmim.

We see that this repatriation was not a mish-mash operation but done meticulously so everyone could claim their land and verify their tribal origins….

Jehovah inspired his Bible – it is all there!  It is a pity that scholars do not respect this book more! It is just a number punching exercise for them

⁶⁴  The total number of the entire congregation was 42,360, ⁶⁵  apart from their male and female slaves, who were 7,337; they also had 200 male and female singers. ⁶⁶  Their horses were 736, their mules 245, ⁶⁷  their camels 435, their donkeys 6,720. ⁶⁸  When they arrived at the house of Jehovah in Jerusalem, some of the heads of the paternal houses made voluntary offerings+ for the house of the true God, to rebuild it on its own site.

3 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

I think both @Arauna and @AlanF will be interested in this new study:

Great job dear!  Very interesting.   I like it when we share information where everyone can learn something... even if we do not always agree. Good Move!

1 hour ago, AlanF said:

Strong's Comprehensive Concordance of The Bible", entry for "city"

We are not talking about the city of  Cain or the nomadic settlements in the time of Abraham - (although Ur was a city state and Melchizedek was a priest-king of Jerusalem /Salem) in his time.

We are talking about the culture of cities-states which was started by Nimrod (built many cities in Babylon and Assyria) and formed the network of cities which became the Sumerian, Assyrian and Babylonian empires.

comparing apples with .... 

In Greece they also had city-states...... Athens, 

A polis consisted of an urban centre, often fortified and with a sacred centre built on a natural acropolis or harbour, which controlled a surrounding territory (chora) of land. The term polis has, therefore, been translated as ‘city-state’

Other cultures had a similar social and political structure, notably, the Babylonians, Etruscans and Phoenicians,

among the most important were Athens, Sparta, Corinth, Thebes, Syracuse, Aegina, Rhodes, Argos, Eretria, and Elis.

Abraham was looking forward to a 'city' - as described by Paul.  This refers to a government with a king which is a priest - like Melchizedek! 

Later cities: the function of the priests became separated from that of the king.... Most cities had large temples where priests fed and clothed the God of the city and tended to the "God" and people who came for predictions.  All were polytheists - so there were many shrines to the other Gods.

20 minutes ago, AlanF said:

See if you can get back on track: your denial of my argument that news of Cyrus' coming Edict could easily be spread among the captive Jews

1.      The Jews from the 10 tribe were scattered ALL over the empire - many of those taken by the Syrian empire were put in Elam and the cities of the Medes....and the river Gozan. Look on a map - this is at the outskirts of the empire territory.     

The root cause of the ten tribe deportation is given in 2 Kings 18: 11,12  together with the names of the areas they were deported to. The root cause for Israel was the SAME reason for the exile of the Juda - disobedience to the law and the pollution of the land. They broke the covenant of Jehovah excessively with their deity worship.  NOT a whim of  Jehovah for them to have a change...of ruler 

Your 'theory' above - not true.    It must have taken some time to reach them in the far reaches of the empire!  The call went out to ALL of israel to return.

2.    617 BCE - Jehoiachin - The upper class of the population is taken to the Babylon - including the metal workers, mighty warriors, craftsmen, court officials princes, including Daniel and his 3 friends, Ezekiel and their families.... the numbers for the men are given in the scriptures I cited in my response above - the number of men as the numbers of the wives and children are not given.  I have already given you the proof that Ezekiel  (Ez 1)  visited a  community of the first group of exiles at the river Chebar......   Not all these people were settled in the city of Babylon itself and they were not in a position to hear any court gossip....too far away... look on your map where they were...(there were two more incursions by Nebuchadnezzar after this - most probably taking all the smaller cities around Jerusalem.) 

3. The poor people who were left behind under Zedekia and the prophet Jeremiah - together with a group of high officials - could have been spared being removed from the land BUT as you rightly said - they did not listen to Jeremiah/Jehovah. However!   The first group of exiles had already left for Babylon almost 10 years before - it was not the entire group that would have been spared the exile as you have implied in your previous answers.   

The temple of worship was destroyed and all the rest in the city were taken. Thousands who took refuge in Jerusalem during the 18 month siege (some Jewish sources say 30)  died from famine and sickness, war injuries, and the fire which destroyed the temple ( Lam 4:10

With their own hands compassionate women
    have cooked their own children

I remember reading that the Babylonians catapulted dead bodies,   which Jews had thrown over the wall (most probably swollen in the heat), they were projected back into the city - the conditions must have been absolutely devastating - especially for Jews who were not supposed to touch a dead body. The Talmud says that almost a million died....  I believe this is exaggerated but it gives one a good idea of the devastation - apart from those who died in other cities.

Zedekiah's sons and many, officials, priests etc. were put to death. Only 832 men survived Jerusalem with the remnants of their families. Jer 52:29 (In the 18th year of Nebuchadnezzar, 832 people were taken from Jerusalem).   Jerusalem and its land was definitely left desolate. 

Jer 9:11  ¹¹ “I will make Jerusalem a heap of ruins,
    a haunt of jackals;
and I will lay waste the towns of Judah
    so no one can live there.”

13...The Lord said, “It is because they have forsaken my law,

Jer 32: 43 - a wasteland without man and beast

Several archeologists confirm that archeological surveys confirm there was not a single known case where a town of Judah was continuously occupied because of the violence that was visited on the Judah.  City after city was ceased to be inhabited at this time - some never to be reoccupied. 

The above scriptures and events prove why the countryside was almost empty - all the deaths and the exile of those who survived - that hegemony was NOT the main reason for the exile but it was disobedience to Jehovah that led to the total devastation of their capital city and its land.

2 hours ago, AlanF said:

since in OT usage a "city" can mean what we today call a village of a few dozen people.

All cities of significance were city-states with a priest-king in highest position in earlier times -  especially Babylon because it was the center of worship since its inception!

Mostly a place with fortified walls.  Later a city state became the central part of a large district it administered.... with a priesthood and a king and a temple to the main deity of the city. Most cities had many shrines to multiple gods but each city had its principal deity - the supreme god of the city.

The 10 tribes were scattered all over the empire (and the Judeans at the Chebar river )..... Most of the exports and imports were always done by river or canal because this was faster than a cart. They were ideally situated to 'produce' and export.  

Pottery could also be practiced at a river but the metal workers were highly valued and would be attached to the capital city because they could manufacture weapons.

1 hour ago, AlanF said:

he deportations were large, but certainly didn't involve the entire nation.

1.   After initial fall of Jerusalem: 10,000 princes, 7000 mighty warriors, and every craftsman and metal worker  which were 1000 -  2kings 24:11-16 - He left the poor behind. A separate number of high ranking MEN are named in 2 Kings 24:14 and these numbered 3,023

Did you notice something about all these numbers?  They were only the family heads (men).  The children and wives were not numbered.

2.     After approximately 10 years (in 607) - Most of the remaining ones were removed from the land -  2Kings 25:11 it is described as "the rest of the population".

I do not know where you got your "scholarly ' information - but it is not accurate!

Additionally - 

Ezekiel 1:1 Now it happened in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.

Verse 2: In the fith year of exile of Jehoiachin the word of Jehovah came to Ezekiel by the river Chebar…….

Some of the first captives were already living at Chebar! 

3.  The tablets you mentioned above - I quote: 

“The tablets shed light on the Judeans’ contributions, detailing taxes paid, debts owed, credits accumulated and trade in fruits and other commodities.”

19 hours ago, AlanF said:

70 years ended in 539 BCE

The 70 years ended when Cyrus took the title of "King of Babylon, Sumer and Akkad and of the four corners of the world" on NEW YEARS DAY (12 day yearly festival) Nissan 538 BCE.

Cyrus started his campaign in September 539 BCE when he crossed the Tigris with the subsequent Battle of Opis. After this he went after Nabonidus who had fled to Sippar - who managed to get away again from Sippar.  Babylon fell next.  Later Nabonidus gave himself up at Babylon because he had no allies.

Cyrus issued his edict shortly after his crowning allowing the Jews and other nations to take their gods with them - to their home. 

8 hours ago, AlanF said:

The 70 years refers to a time of Babylonian supremacy, not of desolation of anything (Jer. 25:11-12; 27; 29:10)

This scripture in Jeremia also refers to the LAND -  also read Isiah 1 which I quoted earlier in a previous contribution - the LAND would be without the usual planting. 

The root cause::  Israel's problem was not hegemony - but religious.  God did not send them to Babylon because he wanted a new ruler for them on a whim - it was a punishment because they had defiled the LAND with bad religious practice and not keeping the Sabbaths.

So after 70 years when they return and the land is becoming active like before  

11 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

Carchemish

These dates were made to coincide with Egyptian dates.  As I have pointed out many times before, the Egyptian chronology is faulty as it was laid down in stone shortly after Egyptology started in the early 19th century. There are many dissidents of this chronology but they are not allowed to dig in Egypt..... there is intellectual monopoly on this.

The most accurate way to test the date of 607 BCE is to go to the Greek sources (olympiads) - they are more accurate and the PIVITOL date is the death of Cyrus from which on can determine the length of his rule and how long it would take the Israelite nation to return to their LAND.

22 hours ago, JW Insider said:

the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—

Yes - the domination of Israel is the primary reason for the mention of the 70 years.  Babylon put themselves on "high"  - above the nation of Jehovah (which is part of the main theme of the Bible).

All the prophecies in the bible which indicate other nations (empires) dominating Jehovah's people has to do with the 'gentile times".  How gentiles would dominate the nation of God.

On ‎1‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 8:12 AM, AlanF said:

And if you claim that Darius ruled before Cyrus began his 1st regnal year in 538, y

If you read my contribution  (above) you will notice that Darius was appointed as soon as the city was taken  - it would become a satrap in a greater empire - hence the title of king of Babylon, Sumer and Akkad and of the four corners of the world - an imperial title. He took the title in Nissan 538 BCE.

1 minute ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Generation", in Jehovah God's viewpoint

The bible says 70 or 80 years..... but one never finds a generation where everyone is the same age - they all vary.... born in different years.... so they overlap.... 80 if one is strong and 100 if exceptionally strong!.... something I will not see! 

I appreciate Nana, Anna and Scholar quoting the relevant scriptures and thanks Allan Smith for some new ideas on the table. I liked your thoughts on the festivals because the entire history of the nation was centered on the celebration of the festivals (Sabbath Year included). Israel was a nation dedicated to Jehovah - they neglected it and went into exile - but the promise of Jehovah was that they would be repatriated back to the land so they can restart their pure worship to him and rebuild the temple. 

AlanF is too quick to "poo" other people’s thoughts but I see he makes a lot of wild hmm… “scholarly” statements for which he has no proof for either!  They just lived in cities??  LOL Get real AlanF...  it was not 2017 AD …..but 537 BCE.  By your comments I can see that you do not have any understanding of how the people lived.... 

Dear AllanF this is for you:

When one reads into the scriptures what you ‘want’ it is called speculation.  I quoted several scriptures referring to ‘70 years’ and you concluded it only refers to ‘hegemony’. 

Please look again at:-  Jeremiah 25:11 refers to the LAND which must be desolate for 70 years. “And this whole LAND shall be a desolation.”   

Most of the inhabitants were removed so there was no large scale planting and the land was not kept clean of wild animals.  When they went back to their land they had to clear it to start planting and get on with everyday life – as prophesied. It does not mean the land was barren of people but that  it was laid waste.

Isaih 1: Look! Jehovah is emptying the land* and making it desolate. He turns it upside down* and scatters its inhabitants.  ²  It will be the same for everyone: The people as well as the priest,The servant and his master, The servant and her mistress,The buyer and the seller,The lender and the borrower,The creditor and the debtor.  ³  The land will be completely emptied;It will be completely plundered, For Jehovah has spoken this word.  ⁴  The land mourns; it is wasting away. The productive land withers; it is fading away. The prominent people of the land wither.  ⁵  The land has been polluted by its inhabitants, For they have bypassed the laws,

Why is your reasoning that these scriptures ONLY refer to ‘hegemony’ faulty?

When in doubt, always go back to :- root cause:  what was the root cause for their exile? Definitely not because Jehovah had a whim to put them under foreign hegemony without a reason…. The reason was because of the law regarding the LAND which must lie fallow every 7^th year; together with this, they were not obeying other laws…. and the land on which they were living, was defiled – according to scripture above. 

Jehovah required 70 years by the time of their exile. The number 70 is mentioned too many times to ignore.  If Jehovah uses numbers so many times then he meant to have his 70 years…. Jehovah’s consistency of action based on his word is what gave Daniel trust in this words and he discerned that the end of the 70 years were close. I agree with one of the other contributors on the forum that to give a month to 6 month leeway is acceptable (depending, from where one calculates the year) - it should be very close to 70 years. More discrepancy than this would be unacceptable – not because Jehovah made the error but because we are making an error somewhere.

From whatever angle one looks at this debate: from hegemony side, or the land (Jerusalem) being desolate, there is more than enough evidence for 537BCE.

Cyrus entered from the north when the Tigris river was lower (September) and the battle of Opis took place in October 539 BCE so he could get control of the Median wall. Nabonidus fled to Sippar.  Cyrus followed him to Sippar and so the hegemony was not ‘complete’ while Nabonidus was free. He later gave himself up in Babylon because he had no allies.  Cyrus went ahead and appointed his Satrap, Darius the Mede, and the administrators of the new government.  Then in, 538 BCE, when ALL Babylonia was in his control, Cyrus came back to assume the imperial title “King of Babylon, king of Sumer and Akkad, king of the four corners of the world"”  ….

All Babylonian kings were inaugurated ONLY in the temple of Marduk since the earliest of ancient times on New Year’s day – some of the Syrian kings were also inaugurated in this temple.  So it was on the following New Year that he took this title 538 BCE.

The Babylonian nation was so superstitious that they would not accept a ruler over the city/state if this festival had not been celebrated. Cyrus knew this; he was related to the Babylonian kings on the Median side. The Median King, Darius, was installed as his regent (Daniel’s vision talks of a two headed beast – the Median and Persian.)

Scholars accept Berossos - who is not really a reliable historian and living 300 years after Daniel but they reject the history of Daniel who was definitely there at the time.  Daniel used some ancient Akkadian words that were only in use in Babylon by highly educated administrators. (Nebuchadnezzar started the practice of rebuilding old temples, did archeology of these temples and kept the Arcadian language as a matter of nationalistic pride and tradition. ) Scholars will not take this into account but Bible students know this empire comprised two empires in one – they believe Daniel and his vision of Persia.

The situation was as follows: the nation of Babylon (very superstitious) hated Nabonidus, who was popular at the beginning of his reign, but popularity turned to hate when he built (and restored several) a temple to the moon god in Tema, oasis in Arabia, and left his son Belshazzar to rule in his place.

Nabonidus was absent so much in a period of ten years that he did not celebrate the NEW YEAR - which was sacrilege! -  It was the most important festival for the king and the nation on the calendar!! On the day of Akitu he had to renew his kingship by humbling himself in front of Marduk in front of all the people! The massive festival was 12 days long. Priests of Marduk taught that Marduk will punish the nation for the king’s deviance.

Cyrus was smart and did what was required – bowed to Marduk on the new year’s day and was loved by the people for taking his crown in this 12 day festival - a happy time for the people. He was seen as a great liberator. This is extremely significant  - if one knows the Babylonian mind and how they operated. This festival was in Nissan for 12 days. 538 BCE

Cyrus thereafter issued his Decree in 538 BCE for the return of the Jews. This date is corroborated all over the internet…..go check it out. 

So what “process” did this repatriation involve?

In 538 BCE: In the time of Cyrus and Nabonidus, the logistics were definitely NOT what they are today as Allen Smith pointed out but it fell on deaf ears. Yes, they had technology like the catapult, an excellent canal system (for water) for agriculture, the hanging gardens with its pumps etc. but logistics were time consuming due to transport constraints – not the world we know today...

Rushed communications were usually sent by couriers on horseback via a network of routes – other methods were slower.  Letters were dictated and inscribed and baked in Cuneiform and sealed and sent out to the 120 satraps mentioned by Ezra (evidence of 20 only came somewhat later).  Each Satrap would need a few weeks for the news to be spread to all Jewish enclaves. The territory was large and the 10 tribes were widely scattered during the Assyrian rule. The call went out to ALL of Israel not just the Jews (name Jew comes from Judah at the time).

The Jews then had to organize themselves: where to meet so they could move in a group together (a trek of  3-4 months around the desert – the same way Abraham came into the promised land) so they needed to prepare their logistics…. food, tents, protection, for the move with many animals which needed time to graze every day etc. Preparation is needed to take the most needed things, and extra carts made,  to establish a home on the other side. For the first large group of people to arrive in Jerusalem and start to work the LAND and prune desolate fruit trees, open up wells etc – could easily have taken a year. The LAND must not be fallow and must start to produce to break the desolate cycle.

This is the reason I accepted the date of 537 BCE many years ago.  I am not a scholar but an autodidact. One must account for human processes.  Number punching scholars are not prepared to do this.  Reasonableness about the lifestyle of the time; together with the confirmed historical dates, is the logical way to go.  In modern days – reasonableness and a thinking through of the process is one of the major requirements for logical evaluation when judging a case in court.

The date of 537BCE cannot be disproved because no one knows exactly how quickly the Jews moved to Jerusalem.  Those moved by Jehovah’s spirit could have been so excited that they organized themselves faster than we would expect. Reasonableness and logical thinking of the steps needed to start a new life in a neglected place, helps to make the right conclusion.

But if you are not reasonable then one makes wild statements about 1914, for example:  the scope of disasters in the 100 years before 1914. This has no substance and comes from a deep desire to claim that JWs are wrong about 1914. Whether by accident or not – the evidence on  ground zero proves that Jehovah helped the slave to understand this. Reputable historians that are scholars have said the 1914 was the year the world changed forever.

To watch these fights about 1914 by such early books as written in 1823 to me is silly (archeology was not properly established then).  Archeology started about 1801 when Napoleon went into Egypt…..and people made a connection between the pyramids and the bible (and by the way most bible lovers were fascinated with this for a century – it was part of the social talk of the era. 

So when you argue about these things it is a ploy away from the subject (but related) to discredit JWs early history….. If anyone looks back at the early history of any organization one can discredit it because we look at it with the knowledge we have at present…. which is not a fair and proper judgement because one should understand the ‘era’ they were living in to make this judgment. (I think they did pretty well if one thinks that they made many connections just on the knowledge from the Bible without archeology.) An awakening – but all the puzzle was not yet fitted……they did a good job with what they had….because they had a love for the bible and God.

At the time the early JWs wrote in all sincerity up to 130 years ago – they did not think that some ‘modern’ scholar would come a hundred years later and ‘nitpick’ every word to check out the ‘semantics’.  

The archeology available today has only come through the translation of thousands of tablets – especially the last 40 years…..  

Reign of Cyrus (538BCE when he was crowned king of all the earth):

Excerpt from Josephus: In the first year of the reign of Cyrus (1) which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon, God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity

Conditions during the captivity - ALLEN F has it wrong!

The boys from the ruling class were trained at the palace of Nebuchadnezzar.  The largest settlements were villages located along the Chebar River (which was an irrigation channel for agriculture).  The Jews (Juda) were allowed to live together in communities and they were allowed to farm and make all sorts of things to earn a living.  Some became rich…  They needed to keep their farming skills for their return…to work the land again.  They would have planted vegetables and feed for animals.

One can get almost 4 generations in 70 years – if they did not keep up their skills for farming their children will go back to Israel with no skills to sow etc. I see Jehovah’s hand in the circumstance that many of the Judeans were placed at the Chebar River and Ezekiel was there with them - if I remember correctly.

Jeremia encouraged the Jews to get on with life in captivity - Jer 29:4-11

4 Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, to all who were carried away captive, whom I have caused to be carried away from Jerusalem to Babylon:

5 Build houses and dwell in them; plant gardens and eat their fruit.

6 Take wives and beget sons and daughters; and take wives for your sons and give your daughters to husbands, so that they may bear sons and daughters -- that you may be increased there, and not diminished.

7 And seek the peace of the city where I have caused you to be carried away captive, and pray to the LORD for it; for in its peace you will have peace.

8 For thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Do not let your prophets and your diviners who are in your midst deceive you, nor listen to your dreams which you cause to be dreamed.

9 For they prophesy falsely to you in My name; I have not sent them, says the LORD.

10 For thus says the LORD: After seventy years are completed at Babylon, I will visit you and perform My good word toward you, and cause you to return to this place.

I have a peeve with academics:

(Now this is my peeve with many academics:  they just care about ‘dates’ and are totally disconnected to the practicalities of everyday life in the ‘period’ they research.                 

A good example (unrelated to this subject) is Western scholars - when they talk about Islam… claim that Mohammad never existed and the entire religious system was developed over a period of 200 years by other leaders….Why?  Because there are NO secular written references to him and NO secular dates - except the writings attributed to Mohammad by himself and his followers. 

They do not understand tribal and nomadic life. Other kingdoms in Arabia have king lists and histories but these tribes were not capable of writing an accurate historical biography immediately after Mohammad’s death.  In Mohammad’s case – the sword - was the most efficient way of spreading the faith – not writing.  Later, when scholars from Persia etc. was added to the fold – more writings and analytics appeared and many additional teachings from other faiths were added to the writings which already had  been plagiarized from many other religions).

Similar in this case – there are processes at stake we no-one can disprove or prove so we accept the most logical - which also has living evidence on ground zero.

16 hours ago, AlanF said:

Most atheists are far more knowledgeable about religion than religious people are.

Such a wild statement with no proof!  I speak to many atheists - most of them here in Sweden.... ... Their ideas of religion is what they learnt in Babylon the Great and most have not read the Bible.  Bible education has not been allowed here for 3 generations in the schools in Sweden but in England (many of these privileged ones who scoff at God) attended private Catholic/Anglican schools.

Most do of them do not know their history either (or ignore the facts) - for example - that Darwinism not only inspired the eugenics of Hitler - (6 million dead)  but that in a very short time after Darwin (in a matter of 50 years after 1914) the most people were killed in the entire history of the world - much more than any prior blood thirsty ruler or Christianity could do.    Russian revolution 1917 (atheist government) between 20 to 40 million people.  Mau se Tung(atheist government) - up to 100 million dead; Pol pot in Cambodia.... shall I go on - the list of genocides in the 20th century is astounding! 

Most of these 'high priests of this new religion called atheism' get their audiences from people who think they are smart but are not really analytical thinkers.

By the way I have read Hawkins but not a Dawkins.  I watched many of Dawkins' stupid stuff on YouTube and gave some comments but stopped watching when he said that “humans were seeded by aliens” without giving a scientific reason…..that clinched it for me.... 

Not much brains there just one nasty fellow and made a lot of money while doing it.  He does not care for science or truth.    I like to talk with atheists who really are in search of truth or care about science….and the world.  Some of them are as mocking and arrogant as AllanF….  

On ‎1‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 7:06 PM, Witness said:

The Body of Elders replacing the Body of Christ – the anointed ones. Ezek 44:7-9; Matt 24:15

We have clear instructions on how elders must be chosen - no females.  So if an anointed were on earth now in human form (before obtaining her heavenly calling where there will be no biological females - should they then serve as elders - now? 

2 hours ago, AlanF said:

The claim that the prophet Jeremiah predicted exactly 70 years of desolation of Judah is demonstrably false, using the Bible alone.

2 CRON 36:20 + 21

²⁰ He took all the survivors to Babylonia, where they served him and his descendants as slaves until the rise of the Persian Empire. ²¹ And so what the Lord had foretold through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: “The land will lie desolate for seventy years, to make up for the Sabbath rest^[c] that has not been observed.”

Daniel 9

Darius the Mede, who was the son of Xerxes, ruled over the kingdom of Babylonia. ² In the first year of his reign I was studying the sacred books and thinking about the seventy years that Jerusalem would be in ruins, according to what the Lord had told the prophet Jeremiah. ³

Jeremiah 29:10Good News Translation (GNT)

2 hours ago, Witness said:

I am dumbfounded by your condemnatory words against the anointed who are AMONG

I was talking about contributors who believe that the anointed will come back in the flesh to live on earth after they have already received their heavenly calling.  I was NOT talking about the anointed on earth today who have not yet been given a heavenly body.

Jesus did not come back in the flesh and ‘live’ amongst the people on earth did he?   He came back for only 50 days before he went back to his father.

2 hours ago, Witness said:

lders do not carry God’s laws within their heart, allowing them to teach as God intended; they carry a man contrived set of rules.

I think they do a pretty good job of the training work they are doing in all the earth.  It is hard to manage so many different societies with so many different histories, previous religions and cultures and maintain functioning unity and harmony. How would you have managed it? 

I see you call it rules….  Well, to manage such a large family and keep out those who foment false teachings and divisions – there should be guidelines.  One shoe cannot fit all situations and therefore a body of elders should use their own combined discretion in situations where there are no guidelines. But there should be some form of uniformity in all the earth. It is not a perfect system but it works….we are still on this side of Armageddon – nothing is perfect.

I do not think you understand what the word "rule" means.  The letters in Arabic - which is close to the Hebrew- means to judge.  This means that "decisions” will be made regarding the administration of the restoration of the earth and of individual people – who may not be cooperating. 

One need not be among the people 'physically' to do this - just like a board of a company does not have to be present physically to make decisions about a company.

I also said - this does not mean that they will not be able to materialize for special purposes.  However, Jehovah is the perfect planner and everything he does has logic to it:-  

Why will he give a heavenly ‘reward’ and then bring them back to earth in materialized form to live on earth for thousand years.    Would it not have been more practical to let them stay here on earth in human form and then take them to heaven AFTER the 1000 years?   

As I said before - adopted sons of Jehovah will be part of his heavenly family like the other sons. 

Their bodies:

Rom 8:23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our ‘bodies’ by ransom. 

1 Cor 15: 50 But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

 The Place:

Rev 3:21 To the one who conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, just as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Hebrew 8:1 – What tent is spoken of in these verses? The temple in earthly/fleshly Jerusalem or the heavenly one?

“…and he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister of the holy place and of the true tent, which Jehovah set up, and not man. 

4  If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, since there are already men who offer the gifts according to the Law. These men are offering sacred service in a typical representation and a shadow of the heavenly things;

Hebrews 9: For its part, the former covenant used to have legal requirements for sacred service and its holy place on earth.

24 For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself,

The reality of the new covenant is in heaven - 

Hebrews 10: for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, which he opened up for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh, 

(Entire Hebrews 10 is about Jesus offering up his flesh - a fleshly body was prepared for him as sacrifice - so will the anointed offer up their flesh)

Hebrews 12:22  But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens,

. God will be present in this city:

Revelation 22: And there will no longer be any curse. But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his slaves will offer him sacred service; and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings forever and ever.

NEW NATION and citizenship:

Phil 3:20 But our citizenship exists in the heavens, and we are eagerly waiting for a savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our humble body to be like his glorious body by his great power that enables him to subject all things to himself.

MT ZION: Isaiah 8 :18 Jehovah resides on Mount Zion.  

(apologies for the format - it is late and I want to go to bed)

56 minutes ago, Anna said:

Why is that dangerous thinking? Isn't that just stating a fact?

Because the signs are overwhelming..... no-one can deny that... since 1914 the world has grown incrementally worse ..... and we ain't seen nothing yet! The currents of what is going on now is frightening!  Even for someone that knows Jehovah......  

56 minutes ago, Anna said:

My best friend, a long time pioneer, left because she lost faith that this is the true re

If people think their own brilliance and stability keeps them in the truth they are mistaken.  It is Jehovah's spirit that keeps us here.  If we lose our relationship with him we cannot see beyond the pains and aches of this system.... or the faults of others....and then other things in the world become more important such as doctorate degrees, stage careers or some other passion that can get us attention. ... and then we find some valid-looking excuse.

There are many people in the truth who have suffered - even by lack of love from their own brother's imperfection - but they cling to Jehovah and the 'heritage' he has given us.

56 minutes ago, Anna said:

we are feeding in people when we put such emphasis on the imminent end

Some people are suffering out there - the poorest of the poorest look forward to the release of their suffering.  I have seen such poverty in Africa - the first time I worked in a devastatingly poor area  - I went home and cried for a week.  People in developed countries do not know what REAL poverty is and to be part of a poor uneducated society.... they have no clue!    

The promises that Jehovah will bring an end to suffering and indicating 1914 as the start of this - with the growth of terrorism, insecurity, refugees and poverty as result of wars - is NOT promoting a falsehood....  it helps people to put their trust in the only solution there is .....to trust Jehovah for salvation...... they have a hope which will not fail them. We fail.... but Jehovah cannot fail. 

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

supposed to be discussing topics and ideas rather than people and their motives

Every spoken word has a motive - for a result.... and a withheld word also has motive...... if one withholds a titbit of truth - one can deceive.....

So it is interesting to see how people use their information....

5 hours ago, Anna said:

but there have been many signs before that, that actually turned out NOT to be the sign

This is dangerous thinking because there are too many signs on the ground now which started in 1914 and is culminating into a very dangerous world-wide situation - it is putting the future of mankind's very EXISTENCE in jeopardy.  These issues will definitely all be coming to a crisis within the next few years - quicker than expected.

Those saying : where is the end?   It is panting to its 'disastrous apex' and most people are not giving attention or think they have ample time - just as the scriptures warned us. All aspects of our 'survival as a species' will come to head quite soon. 

I made sure for myself years ago that I accept 1914 and acknowledge completely that I now tend to look more at world events for the signs on ground zero - all the politics and trends happening in the world right now regarding ecology, deforestation, water pollution, weapon arsenals, and philosophy - to name only a few facets.   It helps me in the field because most people accept 1914 and the invisible rule (rev 12: 6 onwards) when they can see what has been happening since 1914 in real life. Even atheists evaluate their stance on the world when one can logically present what is going on and ask the question: how 'science' will solve this.....

I have been criticized for being here on this forum and not offering academic contributions.... However, I do have an interest to follow the newest contributions from other contributors to see if there is anything new that I had not thought about before when I looked into it years ago. 

I do sometimes make comments to add some interesting tidbit, when I see that someone is unreasonable, or when someone has sneaked in some other 'related subject'  which is not in line with bible thought - which comes from the idea that they do not accept 607 - 1914. 

When they do not accept 1914 they tend to deviate into all other kinds of theories which are not based on accurate thinking from the scriptures .... such as the idea that the 144000 will be living in flesh amongst us after Armageddon......and Christ will have to appear in flesh so the world will know what is going on.  (The Muslims have a place where they say the Mahdi will come and I often wonder if they will have world-television there so everyone will see him - fleshly reasoning not based on truth)

It is nice to follow the academic discussion - but again - it only benefits those here and those who have the stamina to quickly read through it when they come home from daily activities and offer a comment. 

The slave have done their homework and do not set out to cover up or deceive as some on this forum imply - the Amaharets are better off tending to their children and get on with the business of family worship and field service. Academic arguments is not going to bring more people closer to Jehovah. And since this is supposed to be a religious forum and not an academic forum at a university - I can make this statement.