Arauna

5 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

because I am concerned about Ann's postings on this subject and her appa

My experience exactly in the few years that I have come back to this forum - she is always ready for a fight - and does not care for real scholarship - even if she professes it. 

A person's search for truth also involves a reasonableness to look at all aspects of a subject. Even if good arguments are given - she does not consider it and goes back to her old arguments.    

7 hours ago, Anna said:

The fact is he WAS a witness at one time but as you say, his present status is uncertain.

When people start to develop egos and leave the truth one cannot trust them any more.  TRUST is an important aspect in all facets of life - even in business when working with opposition companies or negotiating.  I have worked in business in America and believe me TRUST is the most important thing - if your work involves working with opposition companies.

If I am working with a person in a team and they are always criticizing management severely and they are only looking out for themselves - ego - it breaks team morale.  We are social animals after all - Jehovah created us this way - that we need to trust each other. 

When someone has left the truth and they are pursuing a scholarly career then ego and politics at the university enters into it.  At present I would NOT like to be working at any  university - have you noticed what is going on?   Would I completely trust such a person and their integrity to just go after truth?  Or is it more important to them to get noticed and pose a new theory? 

Valekowski  - he started the trend to look closer at the dates......  Many came after him...

Allan and all:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Velikovsky

Emmanuel Velikovsky became known in 1950 and after him there were many authors who revised the Egyptian timeline and other Middle eastern timelines...  Read his history under the link above.   Since then there have been many good scholars who reject the timelines of all middle east and Egyptian chronology. ..... but they are outcasts amongst the rest of the fraternity. 

7 hours ago, Witness said:

walking and teaching among all of God’s children in human form

This to me sounds like a bunch of people who want to see themselves as a special class of teachers...... and walk around amongst the earthly Amaharets as privileged heavenly ones.....like the fathers of the Nephilim of old.... same wish for more than their allotted attention.  

Jehovah's people are already being taught at our meetings ...  and Jehovah may use this same system in the new system.   An army of people are being added to the earthly domain of Jehovah's future government every day and are being taught individually by those who primarily have the promise of living for ever on EARTH as future subjects. No special anointed with special insight needed for this!!

Again - look what is happening on the ground....in reality - not fantasy...

Today - we are being prepared as future citizens - totally neutral and being taught to love one another and care for each other and to obey Jehovah. We are all taught the 'principles' of Jehovah and each individual knows what is expected from him. The problem is that we all  are living in a secular world and have to cope with secular problems all the time.  Many come from bad backgrounds and need time to unlearn some bad personal habits - but overall they do not become gross sinners and try not to be hurtful human beings or have hurtful practices towards others. (We all will be happy when the influence of satan and his demons are removed.)

There are a few renegades and they are set outside the congregation until they accept that they have sinned against Jehovah and hurt their fellows and try to change and cooperate with the teachings of Jehovah and the elders (Elders are a scriptural instruction - no need to give proof from the bible). 

Under Jehovah's government now we do not have police to keep everyone in check. Everyone is expected to obey from free will supported by the education they received individually and in the congregation. Those who overstep the lines (invisible barriers where one can harm another or self or disrespect Jehovah) are spoken with, but if their rebellion is serious - they need to face the consequences. 

All governments have police - we do not because we have already been EDUCATED SPIRITUALLY and as individuals we have all the materials needed to educate ourselves further.  In the new system - when the new scrolls open up, all will be educated in the same way - and all will be expected to obey by their own volition/free will. (no supervisors needed or special individual teachers).  Jehovah's government will deal directly with those who are a threat to others. 

After the 1000 years - the anointed and Jesus will no longer be in their positions as kings and priests. They will get new jobs. How will people on earth live?  Will they need police or supervisors?  NO.  They will experience total freedom like Adam had and live by their educated consciences - and their direct communication with Jehovah will be restored. In the 1000 years there will be a continuation of what is happening NOW - a continuation of the spiritual education (without satan around to cause problems) so that everyone can reach perfection.  All the needed provisions (spiritual food from the new scrolls will be provided/facilitated).... as Revelation indicates. Jehovah's spirit will be in abundance! And we will be free to communicate with him without the worldly pressures and agendas that crowd our lives now.

If one understands the Hebrew word for rule (as in Arabic)  - it is NOT the secular oppressive rule that we have seen in the worldly system past and present ......... it is closely related to the word "to give justice"... to judge (judge does not have the connection to punish - but to give justice).  Any creature who likes to control others is like satan.

All the resurrected ones on earth who have suffered will receive compensation and justice in this 1000 years.  All the lowly and those oppressed - who before were slaves... they will receive the benefits of total freedom with personal responsibility...  living in peace and harmony with others and NOT being dominated by any one else on anyone telling you what to do.  Obedience to Jehovah is ALWAYS a matter of conscious choice!  If everyone obeyed by conscious choice there would be no problems on earth at all.  If everyone cooperated willingly to instructions (without it being a law) we will have harmony and equity- (each person being appreciated for who they are). 

Those who decide at the final test as perfect people that they do not want to live under this government - will face consequences for their choices. If they choose like Adam - they will face the consequence of Adam.... however the number of people is undetermined now. 

So elders in the new world will NOT tell people what to do - they will be facilitators/serve.  The anointed ( 1kor 15) will have heavenly bodies with immortality. It is unnatural for heavenly bodies to materialize - only on special occasions did Jehovah instruct his angels to materialize and it was with at special occasions when his "purpose" was being directed. 

Romans 9:4 speaks of "sacred service" of the anointed.  Primarily they are the 'new heavens' spoken of..... with heavenly bodies . Their priestly duties will most probably be to facilitate the provisions and instructions for the forgiveness of sins.... If they do materialize it will be for a specific purpose because they are 'adopted sons' - like the other angels and they are a new creation with a new name (new heavenly position and function).  We do not see the angels amongst us do we?  Yet we know they are there and they are assisting the preaching and teaching work....

To give up their heavenly bodies will be to give up their separateness as a priestly nation - a special possession - set aside for Jehovah.   Their new jobs are not completely defined in the bible.  All we know is that their work will be rewarding and important....1Peter 2 they will offer up spiritual sacrifices through Christ. Hebrews 8:5 indicates the priesthood of Moses to be a "shadow" of the sacred service in 'heaven' - heavenly things.

They will facilitate/oversee the teaching of the word of Jehovah... and the important function of judging and seeing that righteous 'decisions' are made and Jehovah's righteous law is enforced throughout the earth - almost like the boardroom in a company. Jehovah's spirit will be in full operation so he will facilitate communication between heaven and earth as he has done in the past. Many resurrected ones may have problems adapting etc.... so the 144000 will have an important job to facilitate justice and mercy.  They have enough experience as imperfect people.

The anointed may be visible during Armageddon but this cannot be taught as a fact. We know that angels destroyed 185,000 troops of Sennacherib and he himself thought it was pestilence - no-one saw the angels (Israel ot the Assyrians did not) but they saw the results!  The bible does also speak of natural signs.... so people will not be in the dark as to who is bringing the destruction especially after they start to attack Jehovah's people in the entire globe!

Moses was a priest - he called to Jehovah and interceded for israel - their intercessionary work will also be the facilitation of justice and mercy.  Moses heard many cases until it was given to 70 elders.   

The elders are an institution - given in the bible - they are shepherds and facilitators for the congregations... servants... of others. They are now being trained (and will still need a lot of training like all the others) if they are to be used in futue.  The higher you want to be in Jehovah's organization the humbler one should become..... this is what the bible teaches... no need to quote all the scriptures.

18 hours ago, Anna said:

No, I actually meant friends in the truth.

I understood what you meant but I countered it with another question to prove how most people in the world do not study the bible. In contrast, the Witnesses study and learn the truth and it carries them for a long time. Truths such as the mortality of the soul, Jehovah's name etc.  Most people on this forum learnt all these things from the Witnesses but turn around and bite the hand that fed them this information in the first place!   

19 hours ago, Anna said:

How is that? As far as I know, probably more than 90% of the friends (Jehovah's Witnesses) do not understand 1914, or to be more specific, do not understand how we arrive at 1914, and don't even try.

My FEELINGS are - you are wrong.  Most know how we get there but have more to do with their time than spend days in front of their computers in forums like this trying to score points for themselves..... because this is not edifying to anyone but the persons who think they can discredit the slave...  it is not purely an academic exercise - do not be fooled!.. 

There are more competent people on here than I - who can be an advocate in this court case - however, fairness is not guaranteed!  I recall when this subject came up before under another heading  these same people themselves did not know that the JW's use 537 BCE as the pivotal date to get to 607 BCE .... the conversation fizzled out after this was proven to them......just to be opened up later again with more virulent compulsion. 

As someone has already pointed out - we do not need this for salvation. But I do think 1914 helps us to realize how far we are in the stream of time and how close we are to Armageddon - a loving provision from Jehovah.  And I do not try to 'prove' anything with this statement...because appreciation cannot be measured or quantified in an academic way unless you do another study - lol. I am not here to score points but I wish to show there is more to 1914 than just a date - the history on the ground is completely ignored by these people who try to prove the slave to be deceivers and they use any minute discrepancy to do so to their advantage.... without considering their own discrepancies.... and this shines a light on their motive.... 

There are many feelings attached to this date - it presents much more than a date.  Many here  promote only the knowledge without a love for Jehovah - so it has no meaning to them - just an academic exercise. And yet these very people ignore the signs on the ground which has so much emotional meaning for those awaiting this final stretch of time.  The history on the ground since 1914 is what helps the "simple folk out there - the Amaharets" - without the academic inclinations, to lift their heads up. They are the ones whom Jehovah and Jesus loves.... and sustains with his spirit.

times and a half" or 1260 (lunar or 'Mohammedan') years with Luke 21's Gentile times (p. vii, xi, etc.).   Well - the Bible also used lunar years,  so why call it Mohammedan?  All the planting in Israel was done according to the Lunar calendar and they watched the moon to see when the festivals should be.  It was their way of counting time just as the nations around them did.  The only difference was - they were not allowed to blow kisses at the moon or worship the moon like the pagans around them did.

5 hours ago, scholar JW said:

Also problematic is a simple fact that there is a missing 20 years found when one compares both periods of history.

Assyrian chronology was synchronized with Egyptian chronology and those 20 years are hard to find because of this. The father you go back in time -  the gap becomes more than 300 years.  To meticulously count and use Bible chronology here is better than any secular sources....the secular sources are not reliable.

5 hours ago, scholar JW said:

The pivotal date or anchor date is essential for any Chronology so we have wisely selected 539 BCE

This is the best SECULAR date to SYNCRONIZE with a Biblical date....and work your dates back from this point.....  And what is more this date is accepted by all biblical and secular scholars as accurate. Greek and Babylonian sources can be used to come to the same conclusion -  without a doubt. If you are a meticulous scholar you will choose the best date that can be corroborated from various sources and work back from there

2 hours ago, scholar JW said:

To address the concern to comprehend the whole sweep of God's administration of the world and the world's end

This is where the bigger picture (overall consistency of the promises of Jehovah) comes in - to understand the entire administration of Jehovah throughout the ages and how he has given timelines to prove periodically to those people which he is using at the time (for his purpose) that his "restoration project' for the earth is still on track and on time and moving ahead to its full completion.

This proves the accuracy of the entire bible and its "reality" so one knows this is the absolute truth - not just a blind faith - because the evidence is there that everything is happening on time in its outcome is reliable. It gives your faith vigor to know exactly where you are in time.

Prophesy a few hundred years ahead of time on many occasions carried the nation that Jehovah was using to go forward and wait for fulfilmment and "see the hand" of Jehovah! 

1 hour ago, Anna said:

How many friends that you know actually do this??

How many worldly people do this?  When people learn the truth from JWs they are impressed by the logic they have never seen before in the explanation of Jehovah's purpose and the many things they learn about the mortality of the soul, the last days and where we are in the time line - and it all fits into a logical picture.  This carries them for a long time and often is sufficient until death. No fault in that.....       To be a good debater is not important but to understand the truth and obey Jehovah.

No extra points to us older folks who start scratching under the surface.....  I just did this years ago because I had a need...... and the time line and the "overall" consistency of definite time points being met by Jehovah exactly as predicted (70 weeks prophecy - the world empires and 1914 ) also contributed to me seeing the entire Bible as the only "reality" there is.....  so I am glad I did the exercise.  I often use this when talking to atheists! ... to prove the bible is the only source of reality. I use it together with things happening on the ground.

I always ask:  why am I doing this?  or this other person doing this?  This is why I ask the questions here on this forum when I see scriptures being misapplied or so much credence given to secular material (that is not proven to be infallible) and this held up to discredit the dates given by the slave and therefore the entire "administration" of Jehovah throughout the ages being called into question.  

It indicates a lack of understanding of the overall bigger picture....  and it seems to be a process where people are bogged down in one small area of detail only to be failing to see the wonder and miracle of a larger overall "reality".     Failing to understand 1914 really water's the truth down somewhat and allows one to automatically reject many of the scriptures that are available to show where we are in the stream of time such the dream of Nebuchadnezzar relating to the gentile times.

Faith is important - but Jehovah knew that us simple folks - we always need small steps to look forward to and he lovingly gave it to us.... and what is more.... the proof of the pudding is the eating....... world events since 1914 has proven that it is a 'reality'...... We will soon be seeing the last prophecies regarding Babylon the great, the call to peace and security...and the 8th king in action.... as a matter of fact - religions seem to be riding the beast as we speak..... 

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

he capture of Jerusalem by Allied forces in 1917 is a direct admission of the failure of the Gentile Times doctrine. If the Gentile Times had truly ended in 1914, there would be no Gentile forces to capture Jerusalem after 1914.

This is not about the "earthly Jerusalem"  it was about an establishment of the kingdom in 'heaven' - which was an earthly kingdom before in the time of Israel - when Sedekia was the last king.

This is the kind of reasoning that mixes up the earthly Jerusalem (which was destroyed for a second time in 70CE ) - with the establishment of the "heavenly" kingdom.   When you come up against this type of reasoning (which is illogical) - what is there to say..... I just rest my case. 

And these people will be adamant that there is no proof for 607 and will quote all the defective sources to prove their case.  It reminds me of the Christians of this world who  believe that Israel has a major place in the outworking of God's purpose in future just because fleshly israel we re-established in 1948. 

Any case - referring to Russel - again and again - when this group of people were the  (Elijah) who prepared the way for the slave in 1914 - as brought out in our new publication....  we have surely had much more light since then.......  as signs since 1914 has proved.

Any case - please answer:  When is the fulfillment of  Revelation 12: 7-13. No long answer needed ..... just give short answer - please. 

Speaking to you is like speaking to a Muslim...... no proper chronology - and scriptures applied to elevate your own form of belief ...... and of course the constant OCD 'accusations'.    

You expect me to believe that an isolated person sitting in a room somewhere and touting tons of scriptures out of context (too many to address here and waste my time ) is the true light from God......

If you are part of a group of so-called enlightened ones (the truly 'clean' people of god as you are presenting yourself) - like you, they must be scattered on the earth in isolated locations - Question: how can they accomplish the preaching work which will be done in an organized way to ALL the earth before the end comes? Jehovah is a god of order not disorder....      

I have asked this kind of question before and you do not answer me: where is the nation or the great crowd you have helped to produce.....  I see you are not answering any of these kind of questions but instead you start quoting scriptures to try and indicate how corrupt and domineering the slave is.  

There is no logic in what you put forward....   and Jehovah is very logical.    The muslims believe that Jesus is going to come back in the flesh to fight the war with the Jews and then he is going to die..... no reason given for the future death   (he did not die before because God miraculously saved him).... just like that- no reasons given why Jesus did not die before and will have to come and die in future - no proper chronology that fit into each other  - and one is expected to accept it because he is Allah (no logic).  

Jehovah is not illogical.  Your chronology has NO logic..... it does not fit.... and half the prophecies can be thrown out with the way you present the dates. (Your way of thinking is to set yourself as a highly enlightened isolated member of the 144,000 who has been trod on by the rest of your brothers.....and your special insight has not been accepted) 

Chronology is important and also the reasons why Jehovah did every action (nothing was without an extremely good reason) - especially when dealing with Muslims one has to bring out the logic of each action of Jehovah.  Why does Jehovah have a nation on earth today who is being trained as future subjects - and who is training them?  isolated individuals?

You are living in a bubble because the information you give is as inconsistent as the teachings in the Qur'an - it has all the hallmarks of someone who is using existing scriptures to promote their own trajectory - just like Mohammad - who used the Talmud and gospels to project his own version of the true reality.

4 hours ago, Anna said:

So are you saying trying to figure out dates for Bible chronology is a myopic quest?

No, but putting all your time and energy (and long debates) into dates which were synchronized with Egyptian dates (and trusting these dates)  is an empty exercise like running after fluff ...   Trying to prove that these dates are more accurate than those which have given us 1914 - and the purpose of all of this?  To prove that the slave in NOT the slave! ...   

The best of it is: history on the ground is proving this date absolutely correct!  So I do not think these people have 'myopia' I think they are blind or ignorant of modern history! .... 

As I said before - this slave has produced a NATION on earth which has developed such a spirit of goodwill that they are doing the preaching work for FREE.  (To me, this is a miracle if one compares that to what is going on in the world today under secular and religious regimes). They are educating people to follow the principles of Jehovah without police having to patrol the streets.   These people are being prepared as citizens of a new world where no-one will be telling another what to do. Our facilitators on earth will only serve - not rule.  Complete freedom!  Jehovah will remove people who pose a further threat to his purpose during the 1000 years - the judgment day! 

Social studies 101..... Many of the great philosophers of the past were trying to create such an utopia and failed. (French revolution and Russian revolution are 2 examples).  Today JWs are indicating that a nation can live -in a wicked world- and show good intentions (altruism - without wanting anything back)  to other human beings without having a visible government over them.  ALL by free will!

Yes - there are many faults amongst the people (like israel of old - imperfect people do what imperfect people get up to) but have you noticed lately how the elders are constantly reminded not to dominate?  We, as a nation, are taught the principles of love, neutrality etc - so we can survive as a nation (no political or religious divisions) and obey by free will.  They are preparing us to remain NEUTRAL at Armageddon - which will be a crucial test!

There are people on this forum who are not part of this nation but pretend they are!        BUT they are here to get you OUT of this nation and jibe at you for identifying as a JW  and label you as  a ........slave to the 'slave" in what they say....They treat us like ignorant fools as though we are not Bereans (like they think they are) - when it is they who are the stray cats with no good alternative to offer.  Where is their NATION which the  bible speaks of will be under Zion in the time of the end?

 ²  In the final part of the days,*The mountain of the house of JehovahWill become firmly established above the top of the mountains,+And it will be raised up above the hills,And to it all the nations will stream.+  ³  And many peoples will go and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah,To the house of the God of Jacob.+ He will instruct us about his ways,And we will walk in his paths.”+

They use this forum for the purpose of so-called 'sophisticated' debate. Unfortunately I have seen no sophistication, not even good critical thinking - only a short-sighted pushing of personal ideas and debates on very old dates which were put down in stone in the early 19th century by the first Assyriologists. (not that I do not respect the work these people did at the time - I still have a few of their books in my library)..... BUT to base my everlasting life on the work of these people?  I am more sophisticated than that ...... and I am proud to be part of the nation mentioned in Isaiah above!

3 hours ago, Witness said:

I have caused you quite a bit of distress,

Not distress - one of my best friends (who was like a child to me) who left the truth and became an apostate had this same OCD symptoms I see in you and the same stubborn myopic view. It hurts me to see you hurting yourself and others around you..... and there is hate behind your words for the slave... calling them the lawless one!   You do not even understand the history of Christianity....  ... and as I said before - the BIG picture is missing from your view (very short-sighted views, accusative and critical).

Where did you learn about the 144000 and the future government?   By yourself or from these same people that you now condemn and think you have more special insight than they.....

3 hours ago, Witness said:

Brother will betray brother to death

yes - sad to say - your hate is shining through.  I think you will be the first to betray the slave and will feel happy when they are destroyed ...... and what is more - you will rejoice when you see them get problems from the governments for their neutrality...... and you will think you are doing God a favour! .... as the scriptures indicate.

3 hours ago, Witness said:

This is why I’m here – to tell you these things.

Where is your nation (great crowd) that you have produced that will live through Armageddon - if you can prove this to me then I will look more closely at what you have to say..... bring me proof of your new world society that you have produced and where I can associate with them.  I would also like to meet with them so I can do field service as the bible indicates will be done in the "entire world " for FREE in the time of the end (matt 24:14). 

Yes - to talk about neutrality is a good way to go..... and to show that we are one unified nation on the earth.... waiting for a heavenly government.  Jesus not coming back in the flesh....  I read rev 12 : 6-12 (excluding 11) and then talk about the signs on earth which indicates that Satan has been thrown down!  (They of course think that satan has been here since the beginning - but the scripture indicates that the signs of the end started when he was ejected from heaven and a SHORT time left.... )

One cannot go wrong if you stick to the main theme of the bible.....

I hope you meet more and give a good witness...... 

They believe that Adam was created a Muslim and he built the Kaaba;  after the flood Abraham rebuilt the Kaaba together with Ishmael, who was the son who was offered up by Abraham.   Mohammad said he came from the tribe of Ishmael to legitimize his religion.  He had good knowledge of the Talmud and the scriptures and paid a man to learn Aramaic and read to him. (there are quotes from the talmud in the Qur'an. (This was the teachings which Jesus rejected as teachings of men - and the nationalistic superiority teachings in both religions are similar) 

Mohammad's first wife Khadiyah (her uncle had connections to the catholic church but they were also involved in a type of spiritism) encouraged him to be a prophet....  Mohammad listened intently to all these biblical stories for at least 20 years.  This is why he got some of the names mixed up in the Quran.  He could not read and dictated all from memory.

Old trading maps and early Roman descriptions of Arabia - show there was not a Kaaba until about 150 years after Christ.... Arabia had many kingdoms and all of the kingdoms and cities are well documented - BUT not a word about Mecca.  Mohammad's  forefathers came from Yemen where they had lived amongst Jewish tribes. They brought the black stone with them and made mecca into a trading center.

They also say that large parts of the Bible has been changed and the true name of God is Allah....It is therefore quite tricky to talk to them but there are good scriptures in the bible which show the Ismael/midianites were moon venerators.  Gen 25:1 shows that Keturah (Abraham's wife after Sarah's death) had 6 sons.  One of them (Midian) became the Midianites which intermarried with the Ishmaelite's. They were merchants to Egypt and they roamed in the Paran wilderness (close to Egypt). It was Ishmaelites/Midianites who sold joseph to Egypt.

Abraham went to Egypt by travelling south of Canaan to Egypt but never went anywhere close to the area of Mecca which is in Arabia. Abraham erected altars to Jehovah wherever he went (also before he went to Egypt and also when he came back). It is good to use these scriptures to show the name of Jehovah and also that Jehovah was the god of Moses, Abraham and Isaac (Ex 3:15- easy to remember).

I love the arabic people because they are hospitable and friendly.  Unfortunately they are often afraid of each other due the nature of the religion (it is like a sick virus).  But I love to work with them.... 

Who had this experience you mentioned above?  If one speaks arabic and you are friendly you get invited in by almost everyone! I am very careful of course...but I have a great time in field service. 

Now - I am really off track and deserve to be chastised by our friend for going off-target!  But it is good to spread information around and get people interested.   I am at present reading a book about the beginning of mecca and the Arabian origins because I have to do a return visit with a medical doctor (and leader at the Mosque) next week!  I also have an arabic version of the book which I downloaded from the internet. 

I read a shortened version of this book a long time ago but misplaced the file - so now I have to read all the information again,.. 

We are talking about lack of scientific evidence for these dates  and how most of the humanities sciences are not worth much any more. Here is another example: 

Sciences for Middle Eastern studies and those sitting on the UNESCOs UN committee have already issued a ruling which stipulates that Israel has NO history in Jerusalem.!  How historically correct is that? Can one call this science? ..... When there is ample proof that Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70 CE ?

So I would say it is relevant to the topic..... unless you have tunnel vision and cannot relate to anything else which puts more light on the subject by widening it out.  If you put your trust in these departments and their professors - you are going to be misled!  

Many true words spoken about science.  This is why the so-called evidence for evolution is such a joke.... and they call it a 'science'.   Many of the assumptions have not been thought through properly.

The universities are in BIG trouble at present.  Many scholars worth their salt are saying so.   Young people are paying mega bucks for generic degrees and have insurmountable debt (that is never forgiven) and they sit with humanities degrees that is not even worth the paper they are written on. 

The Humanities usually carry universities but gender politics and social warriors for women studies and gender (which are not sciences) have taken over all the departments at great institutions.  Most of the middle east departments have been taken over by Islam apologists (most of whom I think have not even read the Quran because their commentaries are sooo silly... and based on unrealistic assumptions (a better word for politically correct lies).  

The world is in trouble because the freedom of speech is oppressed at most schools of higher education at present and many of the humanities students get "triggered"  by anything that is controversial.  By the way, these philosophies are also taught in schools....

Universities have special rooms where 'gender raped' students can receive support for anything said (not done) which may emotionally trigger them to go crazy... and lecturers are losing their jobs for the simplest things.  These departments are run by transgender professors who are now running the show and most of them are  non-binary "gender-fluid".  They do look very gender fluid to me - caricatures! .... and they have NO morals. They are teaching the youth that there is NO right and wrong; the Bible must be thrown in the garbage because patriarchal thinking is the cause of all the problems on earth.!

Canada now has a law which recognizes more than 2 genders and this includes the 57 different genders identified by state departments ......and they say that "biology" has nothing to do with gender.... lol - very scientific!!

People can lose their jobs if they do not recognize the request of a fluid person to be called by one of these transgender pronouns. (doctors, nurses, legal people, teachers etc).  There is a legal battle on at the moment about this because the law organization wants to force every legal person and citizen to accept this.  It is in one state at present but is ready to be introduced everywhere!

These students will get out of university soon ( they are also part of ANTIFA and similar very  militant organizations which remind me of the bolsjeviks in Russia and Robespierre of the French revolution (very dangerous)  - they want all those in power to go - be eliminated - well this is how some of their leaders talk!  They want a revolution ... because anyone with power (mostly men) represent oppression!  If I recall how many people died in the French revolution and the Russian revolution (This was 40 million alone  when one includes the people killed by Stalin). I can see where this is heading if the authorities do not get a grip on it.

We are facing extreme times..... close to the end. Within a few years we can really be facing the  biggest crisis the earth has ever seen because this time round the technology for killing is bigger than ever before and the different revolutionaries are sitting at the heart of almost every country and pulling strings.

Wicked organizations and bad people (with billions) who benefit by chaos are also putting large amounts of money into these revolutionary organizations.  It is  crazy what is going on and the governments cannot contain this wild thinking and actions.

You have exposed yourself in what you said above. You have NO love for Jehovah's nation and do not understand their teachings.  What are you doing on a forum like this?  Only to find a following for yourself or sow doubt?

Why not go to other Christian websites?  Why here?  Because you have a compulsive hate and frustration within you that must be fulfilled by association with specifically .... JWs.  Why do you need this association?

Because you are very much alone and NOT part of a world-wide congregation  which was predicted for the last days.  You are NOT part of that 'nation' which would be under invisible rule. This association would be doing the world-wide preaching work of that invisible kingdom rule....  This good news would be preached in all the world before the end.......Matt 24:14.  And what is more .... it would be done by a great army of volunteers..... who give the life giving water FREE (Rev 22).  

Where is your world-wide congregation which is doing this?  Oh yes - I remember - you have twisted the scriptures before on this forum to show that there would NOT be a group of people who would work unitedly together to do this....because you then will have to acknowledge the slave..... despite scriptures about the last days indicating this work will be done world-wide - spearheaded by a discreet slave... 

I have asked you before - where do you go to meetings to fulfill the obligation given us in Hebrews to attend meetings...... do you hold your own?  And how is your congregation organized to give life's word free across many nations? 

Working in the Muslim field has really strengthened my convictions because I have had to re-evaluate the scriptures and compare it with the falsehoods out there in other Christian denominations and that which Muslims believe. I use scriptures that most Christians do not even notice... Satan was sneaky - like most apostates he just twists the truth.  He took the scriptures of Jehovah and came up with a nation that would rule the earth so that Jesus can come back.  At Armageddon Jesus would come back in the flesh and fight the false-Christ the Dajjal and his rebellious Jews- (in shi'ah eschatology)  

Yes - the religion of peace does believe that the entire world must fall under Muslim control for the government of Allah to bring peace on earth.... They believe they are the nation that at present time is doing the work of Allah and most Muslims would justify the use of the literal sword  - if needed. 

Many learn only the nice things in the Mosque and are not aware of the extremely violent history of Mohammad because it has been kept away from them..... but ask them about the government - they will tell you it has to be an earthly government under Allah. They think they are the only nation of God on earth.  (Sunni and Shi'a hate each other - but suddenly become united if there is a threat to nationalistic islam - a reason there will NEVER be peace if they gain control of the earth - the sanctified use of violence and the hate of each other). All Jews must be killed - it is stated many times in the Qur'an and Christians must pay jizyah tax if they do not convert (and this tax goes up until they cannot pay)

They are surprised when I tell them there is another 'nation' on earth speaking more than 2000 languages and already living in cooperation and harmony.  Not perfect yet - but they willingly obey god out of free will and are no part of the political systems of the earth because they do not vote or fight (with the sword) for any human government - be it secular or religious.  They are a  morally clean nation and do not participate in any idolatry or pagan rituals. (Muslims believe that all Christians are idolaters with paganisms and very immoral.) Only one wife is allowed and faithfulness to one wife is essential and adultery is not tolerated (they think all westerners have no morals when it comes to sex).  Witnesses are neutral - do not take sides in earthly disputes.

Arab and Jew attend meetings together and work together in the field to sow the truth about the future Kingdom government. This "nation" on earth are already preparing people to live under the future Kingdom rule when strict LAW will be no more (Abraham was NOT under law and yet received the favor of God).

We are now under the new LAW of love and the principles that Jesus taught (which are stronger than the Sharia law) because these principles teach self-control and self-regulation - a strong component of the teachings of Jesus. 

I also show that the invisible kingdom is already ruling and a world-wide education is being done so people can follow these principles by free will - which teach, if you look at a woman too much you have already committed adultery in your heart.  If you hate another - you are already a murderer. (women love this!)

We do not have leaders which rule by 'control ' and fatwas ... but we have elders which are being prepared/educated to only be loving shepherds... facilitating and helping/serving  the sheep-like ones. We look like stupid, non-violent, sheep to others but we have Jehovah's protection who is the one who can give us a resurrection and compensate us for anything lost.  We therefore do not fear violent persons. We help people to prepare and strengthen themselves  for the final violent confrontations expected on earth in future.

On occasion (in this time before 1000 year reign), these elders are vigilant to keep the congregation clean from false teachings, bad influences and immorality.  Apostates / homosexuals and adulterers are not killed but are sent back into the world for God to deal with them. They are accepted back - only if they change their ways. It is only the right of God to kill another because he can see the heart (they all agree with this!).

We are all taught the principles that will bring much freedom but much more personal responsibility.  We do not need human Imams (with their morality police) to kill and flog those who dare to break spiritual authority.  We do not vote and get involved with politics (Islam is a political, highly nationalistic religion). The worldly governments are there to bring the punishment for murder etc.

I love the fact that I can compare the two world-wide nations that are now on earth.  The two are in stark contrast.  Yes - Jehovah's people are not perfect but they are united and in cooperative harmony when the world (and its religions) is becoming increasingly divided and violent.  (If not violent - they teach claptrap.  Here in Sweden a law was brought in recently by the church which says that God is not a HE - so this pronoun is not correct). 

If you know of any other world-wide nation I am unaware of - please let me know..... Jehovah's in his foresight has led the way - so we can use our existence as a NATION together with scriptures to inspire loyalty to his future kingdom which will remove all sin from earth under a kingdom of priests.  The fact that we can already be in peace (one nation from many nations) -without strict laws and police to enforce this - proves we are the people of God and harmony is possible on earth in future under invisible heavenly rule.  

How is this unity possible?  The united effort under the slave who use their resources to educate everyone under their jurisdiction!

Muslims are amazed when they understand that we do not need a literal government or harsh rulers/police to control our morality...

Pity they have so much fear for their fellow Muslims...when I say this.... most westerners do not understand the power that islam has over their subjects and how much injustice they just have to accept as the will of God or be killed.... (in majority muslim countries of course) but in the west we still see a lot of honor killings..... and rule by fear which keep those who want to leave in a fearful condition.

We have a lot to thank Jehovah for - too much....in comparison to other religions.

36 minutes ago, Witness said:

This is the crux of the problem – that of holding onto a date, and comparing “new light” surrounding that date that must not lose its ‘significance’ -  to manna -  good for only a “day”; as if since Christ, that is the viewpoint to be held.

I can see you have not been to meetings lately - or you have been sitting there daydreaming of your own wonderful theories regarding proof of your own infallibility regarding the non-existence of  1914.... and how you are going to try to get a following on this website so they can reflect your own perfect spirituality/wisdoms.   

On the other hand, I have been attending meetings and very few of them have been about the date of 1914.  Most have been about applying the scriptures to daily living, meekness and humility. Many have been very interesting in the light of what we can expect during Armageddon..... How to stay neutral and not get involved in this world.

Of course - if you were part of the slave (the ones who you believe like to glorify themselves) -  we would get exciting new food every week (wonderful life-giving MANNA) that would be absolutely mind boggling! So we would never hear a rehash of 1914. 

This to me is so strange because all I see here on this forum is an OCD rehash of the  1914 issue  every time I open up my computer to come to this website .......and NO new interesting thoughts I can really think about.  Is this all this band of renegades can talk about?

So please do not accuse the slave of the very thing which you are doing ALL the time!   Just thinking of ONE thing. Satan was the big rebel and was accusing Christs brothers all the time!  I see the same here with the so-called intellectuals using "innocent intellectual discussion" to pull the slave apart at every opportunity available to them - and using the word of God in the most deceiving way to say so!

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

and expect NOTHING from humans.

Self-sacrificing love means that we should not expect anything from no-one. .. just give of ourselves with no return. Our love should not be "hypocritical".   This is the secret to true happiness.

2 hours ago, Anna said:

no clue as to why historians arrive at 587

Most of the people offering their brilliant contrary claims to the slave on this forum and who accuse the slave of making a throne for themselves in the temple of God, (if I read the intent of the scripture quoted correctly), these brilliant historians - openly DENY that Babylonian and Assyrian timelines have been synchronized with the Egyptian timeline - so they do not know themselves where these dates come from!

 I have news for you -the Hittite timelines have also been synchronized with Egyptology. This is why Dr David Rohl (and others) are on a quest to prove the timeline WRONG! And this is the reason he is receiving so much opposition in the Egyptology departments because most of the Middle East histories have been synchronized and the Egyptian timeline because of the wars that went on amongst all these different nations. This would mean that most of the PHDs done in the past 150 years are inaccurate!

So why waste your time on this myopic quest and focus on the bigger picture - the theme of the Bible and how the government which is already ruling - invisibly - according to revelation 12 is fulfilling bible prophecy.  How this heavenly government is ruling from Zion over ONE nation and teaching these people (in the last days) to forge their weapons into agricultural weapons. How they are united in the preaching work which is being accomplished in all the earth - by one organization ONLY.  They are the only ones who knows how this government is going to function..... but I guess you have problems with that too!

This is why we needed many SIGNS - to pin point when the kingdom has started ruling INVISIBLY and we also needed a timeline of the world governments - given in Daniel - to gauge the time.  Timelines of world governments and of Jehovah's government! Daniel 7 also tells how Jesus would come before the ancient of old (in heaven) to receive his Kingdom!

Jehovah provides - but many are too blind to see it..  thanklessness.....to what Jehovah has given us.

On ‎12‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 7:59 PM, JW Insider said:

When we realize that this is all conjecture and speculation, we should realize that we are trying to tread in an area that Jehovah said was only in his own jurisdiction

I do not 'argue' about genealogies but I do use it to show Muslims that Jesus is the only one with a proven history (genealogy) from Adam until his birth - which makes him the true "messenger" from God.   The ideology Jesus  preached is also the only ideology that can bring peace to the earth....if everyone willingly follows it. (I use this to speak to atheists as well - by comparing it to human philosophies). 

Genealogies and chronology (together with the history of israel as a nation and after this the history of the Christians) is very important to become a mature Christian - to follow the continuity of the outworking of Jehovah's purpose. 

If one knows about project management one will understand how the great "project manager" (Jehovah) has managed his affairs in heaven and on earth (without intervening too much into earthly affairs).  He only intervened when it was absolutely necessary; only when the 'final outcome' of his final purpose would be in jeopardy. He intervened with a flood for instance when his purpose could have been thwarted by Satan and his demons. He also intervened at Babylon with languages - he had very good reasons for doing so. He intervened with a dream when the parents of Jesus fled to Egypt to preserve Jesus's life - also important to preserve his purpose.  

Logic and continuity is very important in the timeline and this is why the prophecies and their fulfillment (relating to the timeline) is important. Ephesians 1:9 talks about how the purpose has been administered throughout the ages. While I will not debate over little silly things in the timeline - I have come to realize that it is highly important to understand that the bible is the ONLY reality on earth - and the only book which provides absolute reality and continuity.... every little thing fits into the predicted patterns ... and a timeline.... to the minutest detail.

This is why I see the bible as the only "reality" on earth..... and this is why I defend the timeline as presented by the slave - because it is logical and fits in with the purpose when one studies it in a logical way.  

I am studying this at present... and it is fascinating.... 

Thanks Nana - I was a coloratura soprano....  I only sing a few of the solo pieces by Handel now that I am 65 years old.  These arias were too low for me when I was younger. Handel's  soprano pieces were written for castrati.  Men sang female parts in those days! You therefore need a long breath for the phrases - something which castrati could easily cope with!

Back to our discussion: I find it so silly that persons on this forum say that a dream by a foreign king cannot represent Jehovah's kingdom - that it will be cut off for seven periods to be ruled by "gentiles"  and then restored.  People here think they know Jehovah better than he knows himself - they think he would not use an image like that!!!   But to my mind it is perfect! 

You see - most gentile kings were often assassinated by family members or their own sons who wanted to take the rulership. Jehovah perfectly preserved Nebuchadnezzar's kingship for him for 7 years - which is really remarkable - the same as he 'guaranteed the continuity' of the Davidic line. It helps us to see Jehovah's hand in the outworking of his purposes.  For what reason would Jehovah preserve a foreigner's personal rulership?  .... if it was not to use it as a picture of something.  Nebuchadnezzar was a nasty tyrant!  His children could easily have taken his place and kept the family line going until the end of  the 70 years. (If I remember correctly Neriglissar was murdered- he only ruled for 4 years.) Jehovah had a purpose for the dream just as he had a purpose for the dreams which Joseph had for a foreign pharaoh.   

There are many examples in the bible where Jehovah used 'unsuitable' people for prophetic pictures. I recall that Jehovah told a prophet to marry a whore and then forgive her whoring ways - she would produce sons who were not his. This would be prophetic of the behavior of israel. 

According to the person's thinking above - Jehovah would never do that!  So we better throw out these bits of the bible ....  Most of Daniel is prophetic anyway..... with history interwoven between the various visions and dreams.

Any case - as I demonstrated above - these people totally disregard the realities on the ground and keep on with 'debates' about unimportant bits (which they of course feel are more important that reality!)  The reality is that there is no other alternative to explain what respected historians have called " the year the world changed - 1914".

They never seem to answer these questions - just ramble on in their own worn out path..... 

Sifting out the gnats (the small bits in their close sightedness) and swallowing all the cockroaches! 

Missing out on the bigger picture!

Thanks Nana - I reread both articles -  Cyrus is known as the first person to show 'human rights' because he tolerated all other religions..... and participated in their rituals (just like Alexander the Great later did). He was anointed for the job (to send israel back to their land) by Jehovah and it is amazing how he came from a very small insignificant kingdom to become such a powerful ruler almost overnight. Jehovah overshadowed him because he was a brilliant diplomat - winning over many of the smaller persian tribes to unite.  By talking to all the troops (when his Median grandfather came up against him in war) he managed to unite them as well.  After he did the job for Jehovah (Babylon fell) he became power hungry and made war father to the North.

The date of Cyrus' death is confirmed.... so from there it is easy to count back....

To add to the information above -  I read a book about the last war Cyrus participated in (quite a few years ago) -  He died at the hands of a woman soldier (who came from the Amazonian tribes to the north).  One ghastly thing I remember was reading about these tribes and their customs.  When a person felt old and wanted to die - the person would let themselves be killed and the rest of the tribe would eat the person at a party.  This was the kind of people who became the nemeses of Cyrus.

I love to read how the spirit of Jehovah was active in all these instances and made things happen overnight..... So I trust Jehovah to lead his people in our time as well.  Collectively - Jehovah's spirit is working on all the humble ones.  Not the smart and the intelligent - but the humble ones.  Moses must have been well educated but after working with sheep for 40 years he felt himself too incompetent to speak to the Pharaoh. These are the kind of people Jehovah uses.  It boggles the mind. If an elder does not push his own individuality- it gives the Holy Spirit a better chance to work in the group.  I know that all have not yet leant this but I have seen how elders accomplish much more by true humility.

This is also true of the date 1914.  It was not mere luck - it was Jehovah's spirit. Something our skeptics do not understand. All the signs are here of the severe distress that is coming over the earth like a fog and it will settle like gloom when human organizations are no longer capable to provide any comfort or protection.

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

scribal error

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

never claim that anything I say is more than an opinio

I am not going to count all the red  'scribal errors' in the above presentation because these are all flimsy reasonings - and what is more - you know it.

As I said above -  it is a rehash of old rehashes - which frankly - are myopic because they do not take the OVERALL timeline into account.  I recall that we discussed this before, how 1914 came AFTER  the INDUSTRIAL revolution and how this was the first WORLD war - not only in its size but also in its scope of modern weaponry and use of chemicals weapons etc - which happened to begin a more and more sophisticated arms race which is now becoming something like star wars if you read what Russia is doing at present. 

Since 1914 the 'signs ' have been undeniable and your  reasonings have been unscholarly (like a pining old maid longing for the days that were when she had her glory - now gone.) Wake up and look around you at the world we are living in!  The proof for 1914 is here in real life AND BECOMING INCREASINGLY serious!  

Luck?  I would not say so - Jehovah's spiritual guidance.  The 70 week prophesy regarding Jesus' coming and all the other prophecies gives a timeline for Jehovah's overall plan which I call the "restoration project" under his Kingdom - which is the main theme running throughout the bible. Do you really think Jehovah will let the nation he is using, who have to preach about the Kingdom in the last days - misunderstand the main theme and its unseen arrival - the kingdom? We are the only ones who understand about the future government - the 144000..... Ah yes - but I recall you do not believe we need "signs" because you think Jesus is going to come back in the flesh?

Wake up!  We ARE an imperfect NATION who is living in reasonable harmony and peace in a increasingly irrational world where everything is more and more violent and chaotic!  Jehovah's nation is the only nation on earth today that is NEUTRAL to politics - which fits in with Revelation 17 & 18 - to get out of her. Their neutrality is a sign that they are the people of God because Satan's propaganda is going out into the world gearing everyone up to some form of hate and violence due to perceived injustices.  Brother will kill brother during Armageddon - for sure because everyone is becoming more and more divided with perceived injustice! 

The western world is facing demise - not only by the Islamic threat to use violence to take over the world (apart from a few other powerful people with money who have the same objective - to come out tops and have influence over peoples and nations)...... but also the progressive modernist philosophies which have infiltrated the entire West and all its highest institutions of learning - the universities.  Have you been watching what is going on or are you living in lala-land? The top philosophers of the world are now lamenting the condition of humans on earth and fear for the loss of Western civilization as we know it in the next few years.  

The environmental threats to the 'existence' on earth of humans in future are accelerating at an alarming rate while most governments do not care that we are facing EXTINCTION of the food chains in te sea and land. Climate change, garbage buildup, the poisoned water resources, deforestation, poisoned agricultural land etc. is progressing faster than expected.  Soon - ALL these combined threats will come to a head and cause major problems even in developed countries........ the writing is on the wall!!!

Jehovah is truly allowing for time since 1914 to prove that technological (advanced/developed) mankind cannot rule the world successfully..... the proof is here.  So stop shouting - the end should be here.  Jesus said this would happen.  Show patience - all the signs are here and the end is close.  Even if I die today - I have seen and read enough to know the proof is here on the ground! and in the news!

Most religions that were known for complacency are now becoming militant - Buddists are killing. Hindus as killing Muslims (and Christians) because they eat beef etc etc.  There is only one NATION that is totally committed to non-violence because they have been gently forged and educated to become ONE non-violent nation.  There are individuals who may not withstand the test but as a NATION we will survive.  How do you explain these teachings of non-violence in a world which is getting more violent?  It is the sign of Jehovah - the love that will be in his nation..... if you cannot see this you are more rebellious than I thought.  Your scholarliness has made you blind to everything else around you - like being locked up in a room for 50 years and the key thrown away..... living in the days of old...look forward.

Not only is Jehovah a time-keeper but he is pure logic.  If you look at the Bible itself it gives us a reason to know that the 8th king (in the timeline) as mentioned in revelation is already present and being ridden by false religion........ soon they will have to turn against religion to maintain peace and security - security is becoming a rare commodity as time is panting to its end (almost in slow motion like a movie one is watching over and over with the violence and bombs etc).

Jesus said: if your eye makes you stumble - take it out.  You have a pet OCD that you need to get out of your life  because it is making you stumble.... and weakening those who listen to you..... Jehovah loves you but what you are doing is misleading others when all the PRESENT signs are already here.

In 3 years, ISIS created such havoc in the middle east.  Now they are amongst us...... what do you think is waiting for the world?  America has its racial and, drug and divided political  issues...... and what is more - people are developing violent attitudes.... stability and TRUTH /ethics is GONE - FINITO - never to return!  No-one can fix what is happening now.... It is staring us in the face and some are too busy with their own agendas to notice!

I have pointed it out before that JWs  establishment of 537BCE is NOT based on the Babylonian chronicles but mostly on Persian sources.  Middle east chronology is synchronized with Egyptology dates - and Egyptology dates are out with 300 years - with less as we get to the Greek Ptolemaic kings. Recently watched an interesting lecture by David Rohl.... fascinating evidence that the exodus did take place ...... if one looks in the right period.

Persian dates are verified by Greek sources and also with Babylonian chronicles.  Persian dates are counted in Olympiads and since the games were held every 4 years they are very reliable. But people on this forum keep on hashing up these Babylonian chronicles of very old king lists as though they were inspired by God! But these ex-witnesses  have an agenda.... this is why they keep rehashing these unreliable old Babylonian king lists.  While these lists are helpful they are not to be trusted as the only source of information. 

Please read the insight book to see where the organization get their dates.  Some of the Babylonian chronicles were copies of copies and written 250 years after Cyrus died. The organization give several good reasons why they do not use the Babylonian chronicles.

The death of Cyrus  is given in Olympiads as 62, year 2. (531/530 B.C.E)  Cuneiform tablets give Cyrus a reign of 9 years which substantiates his year of conquest as 539 BCE. (handbook of biblical chronology by Jack Finegan 1964. ) The kings which come AFTER Cyrus are also dated by these same methods and therefore the persian dates of succession are much more reliable. 

Astronomical calculations can also be misleading because the most reliable information is only a 'total' eclipse ... because many eclipses occur in a 50 year period and many are not  properly described - which can be misleading such as in the case with king Ahab.....  Please read this information in the insight as well.  

I fear there are some people here who think that the organization spends their entire time thinking up plots on how to cover up the "mistake of 1914" so they can be important..... but I think the shoe is on the other foot.  There are people here who think they are smarter than Jehovah's spirit and smarter than the available written information on the middle east and persian dynasties.  They keep bringing up the same old rehash of these Babylonian dates which I call the typical OCD of those who have lost Jehovah's spirit.

Tut - tut - with so many feelings hurt...... this is turning into a kiddies circus!   

20 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

So no jehovahs witness here is willing to provide a study that says apostates are 3 times more likely to have a mental illness, or along those lines. Again jw's support this claim, but are too cowardly to back it up

Frankly - it is not about pleasing your weird wishes - we also do not accept your challenges, even if you call us cowards. People who have left us - we do not worry about them.  If their heart is right they will find their way back.

It is the ones who think they know it all and have found bliss in the great big world out there but yet, they cannot help themselves to come to websites where they know they will find Witnesses - and then obsessively troll them. 

There is something OCD about those who have left Jehovah on bad terms...... they obsessively come back with dubious intentions. I have seen this over and over again. Many of them seem to suffer from this OCD phenomena.  This alone should tell you - there is some kind of problem. Stalking (even on internet) is a problem. So, I do not need no study to tell me that some do have  emotional problems. 

Seriously - if their lives were happy and they have found wonderful new goals - they will leave the past behind and get on with their lives and look to the future.  But they cannot.  They cannot get on with their lives  because they cannot let go. If I were a psychologist I would say they need help to leave - totally.

Nana thanks for your kind input. I actually wanted the squabbling people on this forum to think on the questions and keep occupied with positive stuff.......

Here is my take on it:

The moment Jehovah decided to restore the earth he determined that a future government will do the job during a 1000 year rule.  However, the legal issues raised, had to be dealt with first.

Jesus came to prove that Adam was really created perfect and was fully capable to make the right choices. Jesus was the exact equivalent of Adam but under much more pressure proved faithful until death (he lived a singularly dedicated life with no thought of following any of his own aspirations) and therefore was worthy to be the future ruler. He, as a perfect man,  proved that Adam could have stayed faithful and with his life paid the legal equivalent of what Adam lost. His life provided the legal guarantee that the restoration of the earth is a reality.  On the basis of His life, future life could be given back to those who died under the penalty of sin. (you know all this - but I am getting to another point)

Jesus not only suffered as a human but would understand how humans feel.  Having lived in heaven before and on earth as a human - he answered the questions raised in the entire universe.  He answered the questions raised by Satan (heavenly creature who proved unfaithful) and that of Adam (earthly creature who proved unfaithful).   He was made lower than all the other angels (whom he helped create) and remained faithful until death.  He suffered in his lowly state and learnt more obedience under these circumstances - enhancing his perfection.

It is interesting that it was in Jehovah's plan for there to be 144000 rulers with Jesus. Jehovah, in his foresight, covers any possible logical question that may be raised in future. Early on, in revealing his purpose, he promised Israel that the 144000 would come from their ranks. But when the full number did not come from israel in the time of Jesus - the invitation also went out to the other nations on the basis of Jesus' ransom sacrifice.

So what if the question was raised that Jesus could not understand how imperfect people feel who were subject to sinful inclinations from birth?   We will have 144000 of those kind who will also have proven faithful under extreme pressure due to their own human imperfection on earth. 

Of course - we will only understand fully how the new government will work when it has arrived. Just like human parliaments today - we will have a body of people who represent us - not democratically - but people whom Jehovah has sealed an approved after a life of loyal service and of course great mercy from Jehovah.  These people understand the great mercy of Jehovah because they themselves feel absolutely unworthy of the task but have learnt to trust in Jehovah to do his will. They are personally so attached to the person of Jehovah that nothing else matters. (And most of them have suffered in some way..... unbeknownst to us. Many do not dwell on this but pummel themselves to get on with serving Jehovah. They do not wallow in self-pity or self-preservation.)

We will fully understand all the things needed to be done on earth to restore it only when we live under that future government. So maybe 144000 sounds like a lot - but they will be needed - for sure! Jehovah is purposeful in all his decisions!  It will also be a large job to restore the humans to the condition that Jehovah originally planned. How Jehovah will organize the heavenly and earthly part of his organization we will have to wait and see and also wait for those new scrolls to be opened with new instructions.

What is interesting is that all of us will go through the final test at the end of the 1000 years and face the same test as perfect people - just like Adam did. Jehovah is perfectly balanced in his justice and the test at the end of the 1000 year reign proves that his justice is equal for all!  Those who receive a resurrection will all benefit equally from the ranson sacrifice as it will then be fully applied to bring everything to perfection. Jehovah also logically covers every legal aspect which we have not even thought about!

Indications in scripture are that some will fail at the end of the 1000 years (undetermined number - because Jehovah does not predetermine sin and then punish sin - it would be unjust).  These perfect people who deliberately choose to return to the imperfect state will immediately be removed because all legal questions will have been answered; and legal precedents are already in place (proof that humans or angels - independent from Jehovah's moral standards - cannot create a successful/just/loving society).  These precedents are in place for any future rebellion and will provide the legal basis to remove them immediately!

Frankly - after living in this crazy world - and then in a beautiful paradise - it would be suicide to choose independence from Jehovah's moral standards..... but satan and his demons (perfect angels) chose this and many sane humans. We all know how it feels when a rebellious child turns against the parents and lives a downward spiraling life - this is what they did to Jehovah!  

Jehovah's moral standards are the only standards which can make any society function perfectly without laws and rules.  We all will be free without anyone telling us what to do.  We all will obey Jehovah from free choice and we will be responsible for the self-control of our own desires (which can lead to imperfection if not controlled) and every decision which may impact another person or animal in a moral way.  

Thanks for your 'sane' perspective -  very true, just like satan they are pure evil - but it is going against the nature of God and the way we were created...... there must be serious mental affects after their decisions...to be serial murderers like satan.

In England and some European states the sex crime rings are getting away with serious crimes against children. The governments are following the 'pressure' of the UN and EU and are using their limited police resources to "police" the internet.  Not to catch sex crime rings on the dark net but to monitor the general public who visit far right web sites or extremist web sites and those who say anything about a certain faith which 'believes it to be their duty' to bomb people into submission.  Quite a large number of people have already been taken into custody and face charges for posting stupid stuff on Facebook.

This is the level of injustice going on in the world - and the truly wicked are getting a free pass. And then people quote totally bias 'old studies' which were done by suspiciously bias people  for the sole purpose to show that Witnesses have serious mental issues - really?

Woke up this morning and thought about that "sea of humankind" in Isaiah 57... "²⁰ But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt."

I work in a massive field which is really like a volatile, stormy sea.... one has to really keep on going and just sound the warning without hoping for much success. Every one needs to be warned.  Yesterday's bombing of 305 people dead in Egypt  -  305 families lost their father and livelihood! and many more injured...  To me these incidents are extremely heart breaking because of the social construct those wives and children face extreme hardship!

It is Muslim killing Muslim ......and yet when you mention something like this there is just excuses, excuses...   The mental condition of the entire world is seriously ill!!   There is no more logic thinking or common sense in any sphere of life..... and the worst is still to come...

When the next generation in the West starts to vomit up more 'mire" from the sea of insane "post-modern" philosophy, which is now responsible for so much problems at the universities and many militant clashes, then we will see the next phase of the world condition of human insanity.......we ain't seen nothing yet.