Arauna

7 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

but it can be positively established that there is no proof for the presumed correspondence between the calendars.

Well said. This is what I was saying above. That is why I stick to a date which can be proven beyond reasonable doubt:  530 BCE. Death of Cyrus.

44 minutes ago, AlanF said:

with Darius the Mede, apparently -

He is correct. Darius the Mede was installed as Satrap. Later Cyrus came back to be crowned as "king of the four corners of the earth (king of kings) and declared repatriation. This was prophesied by the two horned Persian beast conquering Babylon. (Persia and Media). 

47 minutes ago, AlanF said:

YOU, an uneducated, verified Watchtower drone and conspiracy theorist, presume to lecture

Time will tell. I have seen your reasonings on evolution - and frankly was not impressed. I think YOU are the drone and call anything you do not know of - a conspiracy.  I recheck my knowledge - always rechecking.  You have fallen  for the evolution conspiracy which turns people against the true God...... AND the false information many scholars are now being "paid" for and "compromised" for by BIG money. Scientists now go where the money is...... not where honesty and truth leads them to. The era of decent science is over.  Science now is applied to control people. Willing scientists are helping the wicked. 

On 12/19/2020 at 7:00 AM, JW Insider said:

But this is the first time I've gotten into the lunar ecliipse documents.

Just remember that lunar eclipses will show up in different months. Babylon used sun years. Juda used 2 calendars. The calendar for spiritual / holy events and the planting calendar.

On 12/19/2020 at 7:50 AM, JW Insider said:

know why they didn't use one of these other methods?

You deliberately remain obtuse. The insight book  uses the date of cyrus's death 530BCE   because this date  is set in stone.  This is the most accurate, reliable, quick and accurate way to get to 539 BCE.  From there it is easy to follow what happened. 

13 hours ago, scholar JW said:

Babylonian domination and that is where they err

True. Jerusalem was desolate....... and jehovah did not allow other nations to move in and take it over.  It remained desolate.  A miracle! 

Many kings were  killed by brothers, sons,  uncles, who wanted their thrones. The whole of mankind"s history is  filled with examples of this I.e. Sanacarib.   Nebuchadnezzar was a literal beast for seven years until his "human heart "was restored.  He realized that Jehovah has control over kingdoms and can do what he likes. Nebuchanezzars  throne was not taken from him during his incompetence. Another miracle.

So when these scholars  do not accept the bible as the word of God and do not  accept these sterling examples of Jehovahs power, then it is reasonable to accept that they  would accept any old scholarly paper ( no matter how badly it clashes with the events of the bible) .... just because it clashes with the bible. Their motives are clear.

1 hour ago, AlanF said:

Clear language is necessary for clear communication.

Very easy if you are only master of one!

12 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

o concerned that the WTS splits hairs over t

You are splitting the hairs

13 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

But the GB has rejected the idea.

Not mentioning Akitu in their writings does not mean they have rejected it.  They may not have seen it to consider it

14 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

But you should realize that ultimately you are opening up a strong possibility that 1914 should to change to 1913,

Evidence  that you are the one obsessing! and on top of that you are patronizing towards me!  

Just now, JW Insider said:

Why are you obsessing over these details?

Insider also sounds creepy -  to be honest.  I guess he wants the details because he is calling you out on your use of stars and calendars - which is actually unnecessary to get to 539 BCE because there are much easier methods of of getting to  the correct dates.

6 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

It's understandable when you truly can't answer a simple question. Once again, go back to school, you might learn!

It is true!  When he cannot answer he focusses on mistakes in language!

1 hour ago, AlanF said:

What happened to you?

One does not have to be a scientist to understand science. Scientists like to present themselves as these highly intelligent people which often is a myth.  There are some smart ones - but not all are smart. My brothers are smart - I am mediocre but there is nothing wrong with my reasoning abilities and inquisitive nature.

Reading through some of the research offered by evolutionists after the DNA was discovered in the bones of dinosaur fossils - I realized they were in a panic and were not doing a very good job at explaining it away. Much of the reasoning was flawed but was accepted by their peers...... this made my skepticism grow about science.

My view of scholars changed after I studied Islam intensely. When scholars were presenting papers that were untrue - I started investigating where they got their funding from and realized the corrupting influence of money from donors to universities.  Many universities were accepting large donations from Qatar.  The same happened in the medical field - when FDA approved medicines that were compromised by global companies being allowed to provide their own self-research.  I realized that money talks.

My view of scholars also changed when I read papers how monotheism started with Akhenaton etc.  Moses stole his information according to them. I realized that scholar is just a name (in some fields of study) that gives the person an  opportunity to  promote their own ideas and that of  the money donors. It does not have to be based on actual evidence. These scholars often  ignored uncomfortable facts.  One such example was the temple of Melchizedek which was discovered. This gave evidence of a single god (YHWH) being worshiped 4000 years ago...... Long before Akhenaton.

Evidence of Joseph in Egypt is regularly ignored by scholars.  Many ring seals (seals that were put on messages and letters) have been found with names of Israeli kings on them.  These are ignored - such as the one which has David's name on it..... and I can go on and on. 

I only respect a scholar that earns his bread by good research and evidence.  One such scholar I am following at present is Dan Gibson.  He has done research of all the stones inscriptions around mecca and petra and the original Qiblas.  It turns out that Petra may have been the original mecca.  

So yes - allow me to be skeptic of the learned ones who like to ennoble themselves.  

29 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

nd yet be settled “in their cities” in Judah by “the seventh month” (Tishri) of the year 537 B.C.E.

So your issues are with the time between 539 and 537.  Well, 2 years ago when this subject came up I was the first to mention Akitu and how important it is.  I had read extensively about Sumeria and the Babylonian empire more than 20 years ago.   Many books wrote about the important festival of putting the king on the throne during a recurring festival of Akitu. He went up into the ziggurat and slept with the priestess. All part of this pagan festival and the large festivities.

I assumed the GB had not seen this in their research.  To me this festival explained it clearly.  So why the BIG palaver about this period when there is evidence of what took place.  Is it not an obsession to prove the GB WRONG?  

To me this festival explains what happened in those two years and gives enough time for the proclamation and to get back to Jerusalem. 

26 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

view of the Bible record, Cyrus’ decree freeing the Jews to return to Jerusalem likely was made late in the year 538 or early in 537 B.C.E.

No - he was crowned King of the four corners of the earth in 538 BCE during the 14 day festival 1-14 Nissan (New Years festival).  This would give until Nissan the following year plus extra months up to Tishri to gather together and get back to Jerusalem. TO SPLIT HAIR ABOUT DAYS OR A MONTH OR TWO IS REALLY (I had a bad word here but removed it)...... THAT IS THE ONLY WAY I CAN DISCRIBE IT.

26 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I do not think we have any reason to rely on the stars or eclipses or secular chronology

Great ! At least we agree on this!

27 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

The Watchtower admits that it relies on ancient "king lists," Babylonian Chronicles, and the reported positions o

I last time I  looked in the insight book, I found they do NOT rely on the ancient Babylonian king lists (from my own reading I also found these  unreliable). The date of Cyrus's death is the pivotal date (530 BCE,  which is a proven and reliable secular date. one of the most reliable secular dates. The insight uses this date. The stars are superfluous.

The Babylonian chronicles puts the reign at 9 years (when the satrap was put as king in Babylon - Darius the Mede. Which also fits with bible prophecy about the two horned ram - Medes and Persians - conquering Babylon. (539 BCE)

It is not a complicated method to determine the date of return to Jerusalem......and the most reliable.... That is why I find it  strange that you guys keep running after all these other (not so reliable ) sources.  The date of Cyrus's death is an unquestionable date. .... set in stone in all literature. One does not have to violate your conscience with this evidence.

I clearly read in the insight book that the stars are not reliable.  While the AID book may have relied on other evidence - it is no longer the case...... the evidence is clear as daylight .... and easy to calculate. 

17 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I am not terribly concerned about it b

Neither am I, but it does give a good explanation on how it took 2 years to get back to Jerusalem. 

23 minutes ago, AlanF said:

mostly are idiots like you.

Thanks for the compliment.....  If someone with more intelligence had said that I would have thought about it and tried to improve.

24 minutes ago, AlanF said:

three dimensional structure like the atmosphere.

Thank you- I was looking for the right word.   I am learning my umpteenth language at present - so I forget some of the precise words in the language used here on the forum.  It does not mean that I do not understand exactly how things work.  You are trying to be a smarty pants now by correcting my language.

28 minutes ago, AlanF said:

You know that how?

Apart from common sense - which I often use - it is also in some of our publications.

29 minutes ago, AlanF said:

You'll have to read the book

I suggest you read one or two books against evolution - you may get a surprise. Since Dawkins wrote his book, many really smart people have written books debunking evolution - mathematicians, Nano-technologists, DNA specialists etc. Face it : evolution is really more of a religious theory than a science. 

34 minutes ago, AlanF said:

requires a book-length treatment.

Really - but the fossil record is totally remiss of all the interim phases..... so why should I read a book that is not based on evidence...... just a theory?   I prefer the fossil evidence - which indicates that all animals appeared fully formed.

40 minutes ago, AlanF said:

"epochs" were exactly 7,000 years long.

You should check your mathematics and your reasoning!  If the 7th day is 7000 years long (6000 + 1000 years) - and all the days are equally long -  then that gives 7000 years times 7 weekdays   which amounts to 49,000 years - not 27000 years.  Which actually mirrors the number of of biblical years BEFORE the jubilee year .... and the 50th year IS THE jubilee year. 

So AFTER the 1000 year reign of Christ (which is also called a "rest" day or is the judgement day)   we may have a Jubilee based on the actual number of years of creation days........ but I am prepared to wait to have that one to be confirmed.

50 minutes ago, AlanF said:

act that ignorant JWs like you don't recognize supplementary material

I do not accept any supplementary material as important - it must give enough evidence...... whereas scholars often accept weak material which suits their need to prove something.... they usually leave out the stuff they cannot answer.

11 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

The Watchtower is very clear about the fact that they choose to rely on the secular dates from 539 forward,

Well it does work out if one counts in the festival of Akitu and then give a year for them to get back to Jerusalem.. ...  

1 hour ago, AlanF said:

Whatever. Still has nothing to do with what the Bible says: "power, strength" in the sense of The Incredible Hulk, NOT "dynamic energy" in the sense of E=mc^2.

Why the denial?    The Spirit of God is always active energy.  But suit yourself......You even argue about a "circle " and turn it into a "ball' just to deflect the truth.... anything to avoid acknowledgement of the bible.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

it would allow the Jews back in their homeland too early.

No it would not!  For reasons I have already explained on this forum many times!  It is like speaking to a rock! 

It seems you would rather listen to the stars and let the stars foretell it for you but not the bible chronology! 

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Always 20 years.

So you have no clue?

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Your theory allows the Jews to be back in 538,

How can this be if Cyrus was only crowned in 538 BCE on Nissan 1-14 (festival of Akitu) and gave the edict to return?  You work on assumptions which you stick onto me which are incorrect.

On 12/12/2020 at 5:37 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

Power

True - power can also refer to a latent power. But the power of God is always active and moving.  It gives life and comes from a "living " god..

On 12/14/2020 at 5:45 PM, AlanF said:

They all come from the same roots -- something big and strong.

Jehovah is that something big and strong!

On 12/14/2020 at 5:43 PM, AlanF said:

Respectable" is a relative term.

I have a brother who is a mathematician, a computer programmer, and a analytical chemist specializing in carbon life..... He also was a toxicologist doing research on poisons. I know that he laughs at the dating methods of evolution because of the compensations in the calculations. He is a JW.  He also has a friend who is a analytical chemist with a PHD in water.  He is also a JW.  So yes there are  JWs who are respectable scientists (without the ego which you seem to think is the most important qualification) who believe the bible to be reality. 

I also know of of many Geologists who can prove that the 'layers of the earth' gives evidence of a world-wide flood and not evolution because there is too much phenomena that evolution cannot explain - but makes sense when one examines the evidence which is in the layers of the earth. The deposits of the fossils in graveyards which are hundreds of miles long, the mix of the animals in some graveyards, volcanic actions during the flood, movement of the Teutonic plates etc. 

There are many scientists who do not have the "herd" mentality.  The are not afraid to stand out.

On 12/14/2020 at 4:27 PM, AlanF said:

What does any of this have to do with the issue at hand

It has a lot to do with the holding of the festival and Cyrus' attendance of it to be crowned "King of the four corners of the earth!"  If you just look up the numbers/dates and do not understand the culture then you are lost!  It is about the Babylonian traditions and its importance in the social life of the nation, its acceptance of the new kings (satrap and emperor) and the most important festival to be attended by Cyrus. To dismiss it is an ERROR!

On 12/14/2020 at 5:45 PM, AlanF said:

You're simply too proud and ignorant to understand what I've said.

 Smart people can write so that even challenged people can understand what they are trying to say.  The better pone understands a subject, the simpler one can explain it.

On 12/14/2020 at 5:43 PM, AlanF said:

Far more believe God created the entire universe 6,000 years ago.

This is a blatant lie - Your speak of your own originality as it is you who wish to paint JWs as idiots.

Even the silliest people know that the earth and heavens cannot have been created in 6000 years.  However, JWs accept that the earth itself was prepared in 6 epochs called "days" and the entire period of preparation of the earth is also called a day. 

On 12/14/2020 at 5:43 PM, AlanF said:

Like my debunking o

I have seen very little debunking and much more insults any very little science coming from you! You have not yet explained the Cambrian explosion...... One layer of earth wherein all  the different animals appear fully formed.  Can you explain this process?  Please debunk this without insults and without exulting in your superior intellect... or changing the subject because you usually answer with an unrelated question.

On 12/14/2020 at 10:06 PM, AlanF said:

to allow quarks to join up into protons and neutrons,

first there was energy - then came all the "other" stuff. 

On 12/14/2020 at 10:06 PM, AlanF said:

the universe became transparent to light.

That is what happened on earth as well.  After the cooling of the atmosphere the expanse had to be cleared up for the light from the sun to shine through.  

On 12/14/2020 at 10:06 PM, AlanF said:

expansion of space-time

As well as matter forming from the 'controlled' energy.

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But that would also make it impossible to accept 607 as Nebuchadnezzar's 18th or 19th year.

With how many years is it out?