Arauna

Trump is a pugilist, fully capable of vulgarity. It doesn’t really bother me. In some regards, it is refreshingly candid. It is not for nothing that the Bible calls the political nations “beasts.” They behave that way—ripping and tearing at each other and indeed, at anyone who gets in their way. So I am not put off by someone who drops the pretense and carries on to call a spade a spade.
As much as ones might like the facade of being “presidential,” and of respecting the “dignity” of fellow world leaders, ought they not produce results to earn that respect? The hospital operating room can expect awed dignity when it routinely save lives—conducting the most delicate of procedures. But if the results degenerate to indistinguishable from that of a butcher shop, surely that aura of admiration will fade. “Laws are like sausages. It’s better not to see them being made,” is the old saying, and it is the butcher shop comparison that wins out over the precision operating room. It almost does my heart good to see Trump brawling with his political counterparts as they do their utmost to preserve “dignity.” 
Moreover, you would almost expect Jehovah’s (American) servants to see that. They don’t because they truly are apolitical. They follow politics hardly at all, and there is a fair number of them that consider even a comment about the topic as akin to ripping a loud one at the concert hall—it is just gauche—it is as though deliberately contaminating the soufflé with the street rock salt. The JW Governing Body works hard to keep the squabbles of politics out of the congregation and to safeguard its neutrality. 
Keeping truly neutral is not easy. Geoffrey Jackson reflects on how (Australian) candidates of his youth offered dramatically different proposals regarding the military draft—a matter that would affect him greatly. Updating his struggle to the present—adapting it to brothers today who might be personally advantaged or disadvantaged by the proposals of a given political figure—he ventured on how some might truly strive to be neutral and yet in the back of their head was the thought: “I hope that idiot doesn’t come into power.” He said it about two years ago. It is impossible for me not to wonder what “idiot”—if there was one—he had in mind. 
Of course, Witnesses are politically neutral due to their advocacy for God’s kingdom—the one of the Sermon on the Mount—“thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.” “God’s will is done in heaven,” I tell the householder as I glance upward. “I mean, I guess it is—surely he has it all running smoothly up there—but it sure isn’t done on earth. Pockets of it here and there may be, but nobody would ever say that the world runs that way it does today according to God’s will. According to the prayer, we should not expect that until the kingdom comes.” Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t go campaigning for human governments because they are announcing God’s government which will tackle and solve the problems human governments consistently flounder on.
If Witnesses today did reflect on national politics—and the particulars are replicated in many nations—they might reflect that Trump’s enemies are the “one world government” people of the humanist variety—180 degrees apart from the one world government of the “God’s kingdom” variety. They are the humanists who would rise above national boundaries to blur or even erase them. They are humanists who yet pursue the dream of the League of Nations, reinvigorated after WWII as the United Nations. A worldwide blending of peoples and their interests into one common government by man, incorporating whatever is the humanistic thinking holding sway at the time. These ones fully expect those of government (largely themselves) to be granted dignity in light of the noble task they have assumed—it doesn’t matter if praiseworthy results are slow to come—it is the intention that matters.
The common working people know it is a crock. They see their own interests being sold out for the loftier “higher” interests of these they would call the “elites.” Their economic interests are tamped down. Their moral values are shoved aside. They are astounded, to take an example, to think that biological differences should not determine male and female, and dismayed to see the view that completely defies their common sense and all of recorded history take the world by storm under the new tidal wave of humanists. They don’t think these guys deserve any dignity at all, so when a photo-shopped Trump is bare-knuckle boxing with the CNN moniker (bastion of world-government think), they love it, and they also love it that the dignified crowd are aghast.
....To highlight the GB’s challenge in encouraging all to stay on the same neutral page, I wrote the following in No Fake News but Plenty of Hogwash:
“They just about succeeded in their mission to re-instill complete neutrality – they were alllmmoooost there, when along came the summer Olympics in Rio. On the second day of the Olympics, I mentioned to Tom Pearlsnswine in the field ministry that Hillary had worn a bright pants suit. “Christians are no part of the world!” he rebuked me. On the third day of the Olympics, at the Kingdom Hall, I told him that Trump had tied his shoe. “We must fix our eyes on Jerusalem above!” he said. On the fifth day of the Olympics, I dropped by his home while he was watching the games on TV. He screamed: “Look at that medal count, Tommy!” he shouted. “We’re cleaning up!”
 

Are you for real? You know nothing about me.....and the tests I had to face.... 
But I know the word of God and I have paid my dues.  My daughter had cancer and had surgery  which lasted the entire day..... without blood and she was 8 and half months old.  ....
If she had taken blood she would not have survived.  It is what the doctors and this world don't tell you that is important!  I can share all the info I learnt  with you to prove to you that the bible is absolutely right when it cautions us to abstain from blood. .... if you are interested I can inform you.
It takes the liver 30 days to break down foreign blood in the system..... if the person is too weak they get anaphalactic shock from the blood transfusion - which is never given as the reason for death on the death certificate. ..... always complications from surgery.
Life is important to me ..... but everlasting life is more important. 

Are you honest? I have just seen you bashing JWs, never acknowledging anything good about them.   You have given me labels many times in your so-called bias - search for something which can only be called truth if it confirms to your personal viewpoint. 
How unrealistic this expectation in a wicked world...... Do you believe the bible?   Yes or No ?   God himself chose king Saul for his humility and then saul turned aside and became unapproved.... to the extent that he visited the witch if Endor calling up the dead.   Jesus chose Jude himself after praying with holy spirit and jude later became  wicked (practicing theft, deceit) and eventually betrayed him..... 
We can try to obtain a clean congregation but there will always be individuals who can turn wicked and create problems until someone speaks up and evidence is obtained.   And if the government cannot get a conviction ?  Then we only have rumours to go on..... which is unloving if there is no proof.  The bible itself says we must not defame others.  It is also a grave offence.  This is why it is hard to obtain perfection. Do we err on the side of obtaining justice or mercy...... because both these attributes are important.

Are you any relation to the James Rookus of history who wrote to the older men in late first-century Jerusalem demanding, as they were MEN of HONOR, that they answer:
1 WHY they did not address the INJUSTICES highlighted by the WHISTLEBLOWERS that Jude wrote about?
2 HOW did they account for their NEGLIGENT track record so that John could “rejoice” that SOME of the children are walking in the truth. Why did they not shepherd better so that ALL of them would do so?
3. WHY did The PROMOTE the guy who KNUCKLED UNDER when Jews showed up and disapproved of him hanging out with Gentile Christians and who had a TRACK RECORD of knuckling under—even THREE TIMES on a certain evening?
And that’s just for starters.
Nah. If it is not the answer their enemies expect, they will just assume that they are lying.
 

So am I.
So are you.
So is JTR
So is everyone here.
The point is that “whistleblower” is in the eye of the beholder. No villain ever says: “I am the villain.” Always they are victims, unappreciated reformers, or “whistleblowers.”
Jude says they, “indulge in dreams, defile flesh, despise discipline, speak abusively of glorious ones.” (vs 8 ) Do you think that they would have described themselves that way? Or would they not attribute their departure to finally having opened their eyes?
Jude says they were “rocks hidden below water at your love feasts while they feast with you, shepherds who feed themselves without fear; waterless clouds carried here and there by the wind; fruitless trees in late autumn, having died twice and having been uprooted; wild waves of the sea that cast up the foam of their own shame; stars with no set course, for which the blackest darkness stands reserved forever.” (12-13) 
Do you think they would have described themselves that way? Or would they not have complained about “ad hominem” attacks and how their real, legitimate concerns were being ignored—just like malcontents do here?
Yes, I know that Jude was the real whistleblower. I was playing devil’s advocate.
And I hope that I do not get another disappointed chastisement from Witness as to how sad she finds it that I am now advocating for the devil.
 
They are. I understated their cuteness. ‘Cute,’ too, is in the eye of the beholder, and in many respects, you are blind as a bat.

I confess that I am falling well short of the 100 times a day that I ought. I ask your forgiveness. Human limitations is the only excuse I have to offer.
If you negate the upside, then all there is left to look at is the downside, and that is the case with many here. 
I keep coming back to a line from The Scarlet Letter: “It is remarkable, that persons who speculate the most boldly often conform with the most perfect quietude to the external regulations of society.”
Nobody speculates more boldly, departing from the herd-like thinking of this world, than Jehovah’s Witnesses. True to that Hawthorn line, they have no difficulty conforming to the “external regulations of their society.”
Though Hawthorn does not say it, the reverse is also true. Those who cannot “conform to the external regulations of that society” and so leave it, perhaps guys like Shiwiiiii, are the most non-bold thinkers of all. They are individualistic in superfluous ways, but conformist in all the ways that matter.

I think that’s very unlikely. I mean, come on, are you going to cuss out an angel—dare him to a fight? Unless you no longer believe in angels, but then the phrase loses its meaning.
I think it makes more sense, partly because of the above reasoning and partly because of the aspect of Law that Paul recalled when he cussed out the high priest: “You must not speak injuriously of a ruler of your people.” These ones of Jude had no problem with it.
I think that expression is probably like what your mother used to say when upbraiding you for some act of disobedience, prefacing her scolding with: “I suppose you are proud of yourself, are you?!” She doesn’t actually think you are proud—just disobedient, maybe that you think you know better. And in the case of those Corinth elders, negligent—perhaps with some self-exalted view of “tolerance” as you suggest or perhaps just plain negligent. Arguing for the latter is the fact that when they did lower the hammer on this lout, Paul had to counsel them to let up in his next letter—the rebuke of the man had had its effect, but they were slow to see that—or perhaps just negligent once again in the other direction. Negligent is as negligent does.
I played a little loose with the term, admittedly. Actually, to the extent that the GB are the successors of those who brought the truth of God’s word to us in the first place, they are the biggest whistleblowers of all time—blowing the whistle on the deceptions of religion claiming to represent God.
A lot of detractors today pose as “whistleblowers”—unheeded reformers, who say they do not have anything against Jehovah’s Witnesses—they just want to curtail what they think are wrong practices. It’s hard to ferret out who’s who, here, because these persons mix here with ones who truly would like to see the whole JW structure AND the message they spearhead blown to smithereens. It is easy to overgeneralize, as @Arauna perhaps has done. Still, Shultz on my Twitter feed (of deVienne & Shultz) observed that whistleblowing in the case of JWs is often just a blind for not wanting to live the morals and principles that Witnesses do.
It’s hard to believe that those slimy ones of Jude’s letter would have acquiesced to Jude’s description of them. It is far easier to believe that many of them would have repackaged themselves as reformers, whistleblowers, even escaped cult members. The congregation they left was simply too strict, too unyielding, even abusive in “forcing” its version of morality on others, and they would change that.

Maybe this was in the sense of these "bad elders" rejecting the counsel given by "good elders" who were quoting Bible books and the Mosaic Law (as transmitted through angels), or these "bad elders" were speaking out against sayings of Jesus and inspired writings of the apostles, as if they held no value to this time they were in, so many decades after Jesus originally spoke them. Also (less likely) Jude quotes the book of Enoch, specifically a part about the judgment of angels, and he appears to refer to another book about the "Assumption of Moses." We don't know how much more of those books were accepted other than the portions referenced, but these books were part of a genre that gave names to dozens of angels and referenced many more hierachies of thousands of angels.
Good point!
I doubt it. There are too many scriptures, and too much context that shows what Paul was up against in trying to get the congregations to accept and understand the concept of "grace" or "undeserved kindness." (Along with "law" "legalism" "works" "righteousness" "sin" "conscience" etc.) Paul had to write chapters, nearly whole long letters, on the subject, and it even put him for a short while at odds with the Jerusalem council.
Probably it is sometimes. But I'd guess there are some exceptions, too. For example, the whistleblowing of the CSA cases all over the world has drawn attention to a lot of things that go on in the world where the abused victims felt powerless. In many institutions, including once-hostile work environments, this is actually changing for the better. The threat of monetary sanctions has made even rich men who could once get away with anything (as Trump claimed), think twice. It has definitely helped in some suburban schools and even corporations I once worked for. I suspect that many priests and elders who once thought they would get away with anything are now more apt to think again before abusing persons.

An interesting take with a lot to say for it.
When Jude mentions these "rocks beneath the surface" for example, it always reminds me of the first time I read "Paul and Thecla" while at Bethel, but at the NYPL, via a book about Christian widows in Early Christianity. Paul and Thecla is an early Christian short story or novella with Thecla, not Paul, as the hero. It's one of a few stories of this type, probably written by and for women in the early Christian congregations. The antagonists of some of these stories are the 2nd century "circuit overseers" who would go from congregation to congregation saying all the right things from the "platform" but then they would also quietly worm their way into the houses of well-meaning sisters and widows, and try to take advantage of them sexually.
I was quite surprised when the Watchtower last year mentioned Paul and Thecla for the second time in nearly 100 years, and was again surprisingly supportive of the work as containing possible reflections of true traditions believed in the 2nd century:
*** w18 March p. 13 par. 3 Questions From Readers ***
The Acts of Paul and Thecla was highly regarded in early centuries, as confirmed by the fact that 80 Greek manuscripts of it exist, as well as versions in other languages. Thus, our artistic presentations are in line with some ancient indications of what the apostle looked like.
I personally have never experienced a "bad" circuit overseer. All of them have been exemplary and I have always looked forward to their visits, especially when hearing a new one for the first time. But I think all of us old-timers have had experience with congregational drifters, and we often look at them with the same kinds of suspicions. Sometimes it's a young brother who is very vague about his last congregation and who quickly latches on to an association with another eligible sister. Sometimes it's a more elderly brother, perhaps even a special pioneer, looking for an alternate congregation, hoping the trouble he caused in the last congregation won't get reported in too much detail. (Speaking from a real example, this elderly brother also latched onto a "relationship," and place to stay, with a family of sisters: a sister with an unbelieving and ailing husband, and a couple of daughters. It was a recipe for disaster.) The younger brother caused some heart-ache by getting engaged to a sister, and the engagement was later broken off. 
It's hard for me not to imagine such cases when I read Jude. So, at first, it was hard for me to see them as drifters into forums like this one to cause other kinds of trouble, but I can definitely see a similarity now.  

I did not know you have the professional qualification to determine my intelligence? ... as to your opinions..... they do tell a lot about you. 
 
Now this is also a fallacy - so I do not think I will waste my time to correct your thinking about whom I worship. Think what you will. You have a right to a silly opinion.

This  is about traditions which are spiritistic and cruel which people cling to.  Many caucamsian tribe used to practice cannibalism, spiritism etc.  a long time ago but christianity changed it.  
It is the judeo-christian traditions  which gave us human rights in the west...... but it took a long time for traditions of slavery and other cruel traditions to be abolished..... and unjust practices persisted. 
Female mutilation  and child marriage  is still prevalent  and a blind eye given to it.......which Jehovahs people do not allow - just as we do not allow for racism and bias in our congregations. Yes, spiritual maturity has helped us to see the error of our ways..... but many people who are so-called Christian's are still racist....... it just depends on the degree.
As I said before: our brothers in Africa  are doing a fine job as elders and servants in the congregations. 
 

Probably the most superficial posting here on this forum because there is no concept of historical context.   Always placing old articles and using modern laws and attitudes to  defame Jws
In South Africa the JW brothers had to constantly ask permission from the government for assemblies to allow different colours of people to mingle...... and this was in the 70s and 80s....  When a white person wanted to preach in a black suburb  he would face personal danger and visa versa -  when a black person wanted to preach in a white area he would be thrown out and the npolice called.  It was society attitudes (and in case of SA - enforced by laws) which dictated what values one could hold.
 
I grew up in the 50s in Africa.  From young  age I saw black women with breasts uncovered in the streets.... I saw a murder of a black man killing another before I was ten.   I knew about Muti- murders (witch-doctor medicine from body parts)  and I thought it was depraved...even as a child.  .  How depraved must voodoo, witch doctors etc not bave seemed to those people living  in 1902 when colonists went to Africa.  British soldiers who underestimated the black "  impi" were slaughtered in war.  Read up about it on Google -  isandlwana.  The movie "zulu"  was the stand of a small group of engineers against a portion of this army.
In 1902 JWs definitely held the wrong view of Canaans/Ham's offspring but this was corrected afterwards.  Today,  JWs in the entire world are one United nation while many other religions remain separate.  I saw many churches in USA 5 years ago where only black people attended, and many where only whites attend.  Most  white churches still believe that these are the offspring of Ham because they have not been taught the truth about the bible.  We have matured and hold Jehovahs views on race.
I joined a forum  recently as a JW.  The group wanted my views as a JW.  I was shocked to learn how racially divided USA is now and how many people hate whites just for their skin color and perceived past inustices.  Black Israelites took over the conversation and i wish to add - this is a growing trend in USA. USA has a lot of problems to deal with because they have not corrected the historical problems.  JWs have corrected historical errors.
If you want to know more about the superstitions in Africa- even amongst the educated..... I can inform you.  Latin America also have many superstitions which Catholicism has not removed.   These practices are not tolerated by JWs when members revert back to old spiritistic practices.   These JWs are corrected and unrepentent ones removed.  There was  a special booklet,  against all forms of spiritism, written which I used extensively in Africa...... and it is also used in the Caribean and south America.   The muslims are also very superstitious about the evil eye etc.  This is realities....in the world .... not fallacies. 
JWs now preach to anyone who has an ear to listen in over 1000 printed languages.  The bible is not bias but in 1902 ..... the JWs were..........which proves this point: if one allows jehovah to correct you and you follow the bible's guidance - you will get it right in the end .......and after all.... it is not the beginning that counts but the end of the race.

I think even when we are baptized, the watchtower elders or CO has no power over anyone, the power they think they have is because we give them that power, is not like we have signed a contract or anything. 

@Arauna This can also cause an indirect consequence, which in of itself, being misinformed and or misunderstood can ruin someone's life, which seems to be the case in everything.

No surprise because you have a negative opinion.... and I suspect a hate for all authority...in any shape or form

No surprise there!  
What I do NOT understand is the logic of the men who hate JWs.   They try to prove that we are impure and allow homeosexuality (when we clearly do not) and in the next breath critisize us when we shun unrepentant homxosexuals and fornicators in cases where we DO have sufficient evidence..  They neglect to remember that experts find it hard to gather evidence.
We are too harsh for our detractors when we shun when we have sufficient evidence and  too compassionate when we do not have enough proof.  We are too compassionate when  someone has confessed (the law protects lawyers and spiritual leaders from disclosure of confessions - especially if this can be used against them in court - and the government has not removed this law but wants JWs to act against the law of the land. The police must do their own investigation and come up with the evidence or the congress must change the law...... but I doubt this will ever happen because many high officials are child molesters) ) and JWs are too compassionate to allow people off the street to attend our meetings not knowing if they have been molesters. 
So the best is to do the best possible we can do and leave the rest to Jehovah.  Our detractors are angry because we DO follow the  bible and its principles and the majority DO try to live clean lives .....  they hate it because they want to feel more pure while not caring for bible principals at all  or still adhering to impure teachings such as trinity, immortality of the soul etc. 
That is a blanket statement and that usually is an indication of bitterness and resentment....... 

Lol - .... how fast does a donkey go?

Do not put words in my mouth. You know ...... societies changes all the time and their values also. Soo wrong attitudes should be corrected so people can use their lives to worship God.  A person who is preaching and living a clean life will not try to shy away from dedicating himself to God. 

Since girls can now get married at age of nine or ten I guess these views will soon change.  Why am I making this statement?  Because society changes and the age of a man (when he is viewed as mature enough for highly important decisions by free will) ) or when a woman  is viewed as mature is constantly changing. ....  our current circumstances are in the process of changing. 

This  is about traditions which are spiritistic and cruel which people cling to.  Many caucamsian tribe used to practice cannibalism, spiritism etc.  a long time ago but christianity changed it.  
It is the judeo-christian traditions  which gave us human rights in the west...... but it took a long time for traditions of slavery and other cruel traditions to be abolished..... and unjust practices persisted. 
Female mutilation  and child marriage  is still prevalent  and a blind eye given to it.......which Jehovahs people do not allow - just as we do not allow for racism and bias in our congregations. Yes, spiritual maturity has helped us to see the error of our ways..... but many people who are so-called Christian's are still racist....... it just depends on the degree.
As I said before: our brothers in Africa  are doing a fine job as elders and servants in the congregations. 
 

Probably the most superficial posting here on this forum because there is no concept of historical context.   Always placing old articles and using modern laws and attitudes to  defame Jws
In South Africa the JW brothers had to constantly ask permission from the government for assemblies to allow different colours of people to mingle...... and this was in the 70s and 80s....  When a white person wanted to preach in a black suburb  he would face personal danger and visa versa -  when a black person wanted to preach in a white area he would be thrown out and the npolice called.  It was society attitudes (and in case of SA - enforced by laws) which dictated what values one could hold.
 
I grew up in the 50s in Africa.  From young  age I saw black women with breasts uncovered in the streets.... I saw a murder of a black man killing another before I was ten.   I knew about Muti- murders (witch-doctor medicine from body parts)  and I thought it was depraved...even as a child.  .  How depraved must voodoo, witch doctors etc not bave seemed to those people living  in 1902 when colonists went to Africa.  British soldiers who underestimated the black "  impi" were slaughtered in war.  Read up about it on Google -  isandlwana.  The movie "zulu"  was the stand of a small group of engineers against a portion of this army.
In 1902 JWs definitely held the wrong view of Canaans/Ham's offspring but this was corrected afterwards.  Today,  JWs in the entire world are one United nation while many other religions remain separate.  I saw many churches in USA 5 years ago where only black people attended, and many where only whites attend.  Most  white churches still believe that these are the offspring of Ham because they have not been taught the truth about the bible.  We have matured and hold Jehovahs views on race.
I joined a forum  recently as a JW.  The group wanted my views as a JW.  I was shocked to learn how racially divided USA is now and how many people hate whites just for their skin color and perceived past inustices.  Black Israelites took over the conversation and i wish to add - this is a growing trend in USA. USA has a lot of problems to deal with because they have not corrected the historical problems.  JWs have corrected historical errors.
If you want to know more about the superstitions in Africa- even amongst the educated..... I can inform you.  Latin America also have many superstitions which Catholicism has not removed.   These practices are not tolerated by JWs when members revert back to old spiritistic practices.   These JWs are corrected and unrepentent ones removed.  There was  a special booklet,  against all forms of spiritism, written which I used extensively in Africa...... and it is also used in the Caribean and south America.   The muslims are also very superstitious about the evil eye etc.  This is realities....in the world .... not fallacies. 
JWs now preach to anyone who has an ear to listen in over 1000 printed languages.  The bible is not bias but in 1902 ..... the JWs were..........which proves this point: if one allows jehovah to correct you and you follow the bible's guidance - you will get it right in the end .......and after all.... it is not the beginning that counts but the end of the race.

Do not put words in my mouth. You know ...... societies changes all the time and their values also. Soo wrong attitudes should be corrected so people can use their lives to worship God.  A person who is preaching and living a clean life will not try to shy away from dedicating himself to God. 

Since girls can now get married at age of nine or ten I guess these views will soon change.  Why am I making this statement?  Because society changes and the age of a man (when he is viewed as mature enough for highly important decisions by free will) ) or when a woman  is viewed as mature is constantly changing. ....  our current circumstances are in the process of changing. 

No surprise there!  
What I do NOT understand is the logic of the men who hate JWs.   They try to prove that we are impure and allow homeosexuality (when we clearly do not) and in the next breath critisize us when we shun unrepentant homxosexuals and fornicators in cases where we DO have sufficient evidence..  They neglect to remember that experts find it hard to gather evidence.
We are too harsh for our detractors when we shun when we have sufficient evidence and  too compassionate when we do not have enough proof.  We are too compassionate when  someone has confessed (the law protects lawyers and spiritual leaders from disclosure of confessions - especially if this can be used against them in court - and the government has not removed this law but wants JWs to act against the law of the land. The police must do their own investigation and come up with the evidence or the congress must change the law...... but I doubt this will ever happen because many high officials are child molesters) ) and JWs are too compassionate to allow people off the street to attend our meetings not knowing if they have been molesters. 
So the best is to do the best possible we can do and leave the rest to Jehovah.  Our detractors are angry because we DO follow the  bible and its principles and the majority DO try to live clean lives .....  they hate it because they want to feel more pure while not caring for bible principals at all  or still adhering to impure teachings such as trinity, immortality of the soul etc. 
That is a blanket statement and that usually is an indication of bitterness and resentment....... 

Is not that we weren't following God's will it is just the light gets brighter 😆😆😆