Arauna

No, not all. Many sports organizations  and institutions etc have closed down.  But JWs will be accountable for every one.... because we will not close down and operate under a new name.....and it is fair for the victims.
But as usual - the press will only single us out even though the injustice was not "planned" or tolerated.   It is just an extremely sensitive issue and most people - even today - do not completely know how to cope with it because it can destroy families.
Elders who deal with it are under severe strain....  but this is why an elder must excuse himself if he does not feel able to handle it.  Luckily the new laws are in place which stipulate that this crime  must be reported to the authorities - in most first world countries.  So this takes pressure off them.     
There is nothing wrong with not having the full picture or making a mistake - GB and JWs are imperfect people after all.  But I am absolutely sure that JWs understand the teachings of the bible, they do have a slave that is working hard on the preaching work and giving encouragement at the proper time.
I am sure the bible is absolute reality and Jehovah has a nation on earth which comes from all nations and they do not learn war any more. They have unity because they do apply the bible principles that promote unity as a nation on earth.  Are they perfect people?   By no means.... ordinary people who try to stay faithful to Jehovah and the good and bad he set for us. 
We are NOT better than anyone else ...... just extremely blessed to be drawn by Jehovah and receive his spirit to remain in the truth.  We cannot remain in the truth without his spirit.    For a while they can but eventually the develop a bad attitude.
Of course, a KGB agent can infiltrate JWs and become an alder........ but his motivation is similar to Judas Iscariot. He is paid by the government and supported by them. Jehova will judge him.
Most of us are just simple people who honestly and unhypocritically try to serve Jehovah....  So we remain because Jehovah gives his spirit to us....... and where else can we go where there is one nation under Jehovah?.

Thank you for your good research.  I admit - since I last looked at these things I have been looking at other subjects....  You are welcome to correct me where I err. 
My friend, this is only a wish these days - justice is becoming a thing for the rich only who can afford good lawyers and get off.  An arabic word describes it perfectly THULM....... it means injustice but the consonants also stand for darkness.  As moral darkness descends on this world I am afraid that suffering is going to escalate because injustice will prevail.
I met an African woman in field service here who was trafficked to different countries because she did not keep quiet about the children taken by the United nations.  She was working at a school when the UN came and said they will look after the children...... and took the teachers with them.  A few days later she found the teachers in jail and the children missing.  She kicked up a fuss  and to quiet her down they took her into custody.  They sent her to an Islamic country and told them she was a criminal, hoping she would be killed..... but instead, they listened to her story..... 
High-up organizations are involved even some of the American Charity foundations.

@Arauna Quote " My friend, this is only a wish these days - justice is becoming a thing for the rich only who can afford good lawyers and get off. " 
Not so with JW Child Sexual Abuse Victims. Some of them are not rich but they are getting justice at last. In many countries earthwide CSA victims from many 'walks of life' are getting some justice. Not just in JW Org of course, but it's good to see justice for all victims.

Different situations were present in ancient times. i.e. Israelites were allowed to have a concubine for instance..... BUT Job was a good man because he was generous with his possessions and he was faithful to only one wife - even though se was a nagger - lol.
Does this mean that Jehovah will judge these people by the standards set by Jesus of one wife only?
Yes, the laws of justice, mercy,  being honest are universal laws and will be in effect - no matter what the era or time period..... but some other considerations will also be taken into account.  After all - Jehovah is perfect and he will judge perfectly.  Unfortunately we do not judge perfectly.  Some persons did things as a young stupid person and society still hold them accountable for their entire life and treats them like outcasts....Jehovah can read the heart and he knows.  There are many situations where we cannot judge perfectly.... 

Thank you for your good research.  I admit - since I last looked at these things I have been looking at other subjects....  You are welcome to correct me where I err. 
My friend, this is only a wish these days - justice is becoming a thing for the rich only who can afford good lawyers and get off.  An arabic word describes it perfectly THULM....... it means injustice but the consonants also stand for darkness.  As moral darkness descends on this world I am afraid that suffering is going to escalate because injustice will prevail.
I met an African woman in field service here who was trafficked to different countries because she did not keep quiet about the children taken by the United nations.  She was working at a school when the UN came and said they will look after the children...... and took the teachers with them.  A few days later she found the teachers in jail and the children missing.  She kicked up a fuss  and to quiet her down they took her into custody.  They sent her to an Islamic country and told them she was a criminal, hoping she would be killed..... but instead, they listened to her story..... 
High-up organizations are involved even some of the American Charity foundations.

I do the same.. You will notice that I do have my own opinions on some things.... which comes from meditation......  .  I  will of course not go and teach this to others.  I teach the basic core teachings to my studies and help them to appreciate that they must do self study for maturity...  I also prepare them for their time as a witness when they will see that everyone is not perfect....... they may even bump their toe on a rock below the surface of the love-feasts..
Most new witnesses face a test with fellow witnesses after baptism -  or a new congregations - it is inevitable..... just depends on how big the test is.  I also help them to get life-skills as a witness.  Some did not learn this while at home or had too many bumps in life.  The qualities to survive and the attitudes that assist in cooperating with others and being kind and fitting in.
The realit y is: we are social animals and want to fit in , be successful in the group and it is hard on some people- especially if one has some weird personality quirks..... Navigating life - no matter where you go - is hard.  For us the workplace can be a specially hard because people expect us to be "better" than others...... when we are just ordinary people like everyone else..... The only difference is that we try to be faithful to god........ to the best of our very imperfect ability. Sometimes we must face ridicule for that...so as ordinary people we have to build up courage and work on our social skills to navigate out of difficult situations.
I have a very friendly personality and stand out easily..... as a woman this is not always a good thing.  So I have learnt to be smart and gauge the right time to say what I think.  Last year I went to see two Arabic brothers and spoke to them about their attitudes towards women..... because Arabs have an inbred attitude which the truth does not completely correct.... years and years of training in a certain way is not just going to disappear.  I waited for the right time and managed to do it successfully....   did they take my concerns to heart?   I do not know....  but I seemed to do OK afterward.  As I grew older I learnt to not keep quiet about my concerns....... but wait for a long time until the time is right and then talk.  Every time I was successful, I grew in maturity.  Now I help the young sisters to also grow strong and become pillars in the congregation. 
 

We are encouraged by GB to think about things (meditate/ analyze) .  Our maturity in spiritual things depend on ourselves - the organization cannot teach us  this. 

Yes, @Arauna, an excellent challenge for you. Put each “joke” under the microscope. Analyze it with critical thinking skills to PROVE that it is funny or not funny. Just think how enriched your life will be!
It is like when I watch Colbert. I do not just laugh because the plebeians are laughing—what do they know? It might be a trap. I run each joke into the lab for a bevy of tests. If I determine thereby using science that it was funny, I laugh my sides off.
If you actually read things before you worked on your rebuttal, you would see that @Arauna‘s comment has nothing to do with chronology.
It has to do with political developments that she has in position to know that will make you wish the end had come, even should you be on the wrong side.

Just because men may or may not apply scripture properly does not automatically mean all elders are NOT appointed by holy spirit. In any case, this is really a different matter altogether. No one can apply scripture perfectly, but they can do their best, however, in the case under discussion, the appointment of elders, men are limited through no fault of their own, because they can only act on what they see, they can't help that. They might be applying the scripture quite correctly, but it's contingent on the person they are considering appointing to actually qualify. But, and we are going round in circles, the elders can only see what is apparent. Therefore logically, if they really do not meet these qualifications, because they have deceptively hidden some pertinent details, or if it was assumed that past sins will no longer occur but they do, then holy spirit was not involved in the appointing, regardless whether men have appointed the person or not. So there are three scenarios, correct appointment,  erroneous appointment, and appointment that is later withdrawn. In the second scenario, the erroneous appointment,  it can happen that a prospective candidate, who is married, is very clever at hiding the fact that he has a lover on the side. Outwardly, he meets all the requirements, and he is appointed an elder. No holy spirit involved there, obviously. Then in the third case, there is the candidate who really meets all the requirements, he is appointed, and it can be said that holy spirit was involved. However, later, that same man acquires a lover on the side, and keeps it well hidden. It is then obvious that he no longer meets the requirements, and holy spirit is no longer involved.
The third scenario illustrates that holy spirit, once given, doesn't mean it can't be withdrawn. Think Judas Iscariot. Similarly, once someone is appointed by holy spirit, doesn't mean that appointment can't be made obsolete, removed. So how would we know? We may not know. But the scriptures say "that which is carefully hidden WILL be exposed".
I don't see how I've done that. What are they claiming that's false? Just because Greenlees was apparently not appointed by holy spirit, but by men, doesn't mean the same thing applies to all of them.
JWS believe that the head of the congregation is Jesus, and that he knows who is who and what is going on, even though men may not know. So we trust that whatever corrections are needed, they will happen.
You mean ex-JWs emailing Angus Stewart?
I am not talking about a theoretical exercise, I am talking about an actual case. I read the whole transcript (all several hundred pages of it).
I can’t comment on cases unless I am able to read all the court transcripts of the case. So you telling me about “sordid details” and “cover ups” is of no real help to me. Although I am not denying that cover ups have happened.
Are you talking about victims BCG, and BCB? Because if you are, then I do not recall any attempts at covering up abuse. But I do recall there being inappropriate handling of the issue, for example for the victim to have to face her abuser.  The ARC identified areas such as that, and others, where the policies of JWS could be improved, and then made recommendations. These recommendations were taken on board and are now implemented, and are part of the JW policy on Child Protection. I am sure you have read it. Furthermore as you know, the ARC was set up in recognition of CSA problems in various institutions, not just JWS.
This sounds like a case of semantics to me. I could say that Julia Child did not direct me, but I allowed her instructions in the cook book to direct me. And if those instructions were detailed enough, then I probably turned out a good meal. However, if I started chopping the onion in quarters, instead of small pieces, as stated in the recipe, then Julia Child would not be there to personally correct me. So if my meal turned out less than perfect, then it was because I had not followed Julia’s instructions properly, regardless whether she was there in person or not. But really, this is what the Bible is. Christians try to follow it as best as they can. The idea of appointment by holy spirit is a scriptural idea and it is assumed that if one qualifies as per Timothy, then it can be said that one is working in harmony with God and his holy spirit in that appointment, therefore to put it another way: the appointment is by holy spirit. I guess you would prefer appointed in harmony with holy spirit, rather than appointed by it. But don’t think I don’t know the real reason why you are bringing all this up. Your point is that saying “appointed by”, somehow makes the rank and file imagine that this is something special, and under direct guidance of God.  But we have already established that this cannot always be the case. (But also, that does not automatically mean that it is never the case). Regardless, Paul writes Christians should be obedient to those taking the lead. This does not mean we are going to obey indiscriminately. I guess because the apostle Paul assumed that he was talking to intelligent and reasonable people, he did not see the need to insert the proviso “unless they are asking you to do something bad” .  Peter understood, when he said “we must obey God as ruler rather than man”. Which brings me to your next point:
No, first and foremost God must be obeyed. So if the GB were to ask someone to do something that is not supported in scripture, or that goes against scripture, no JW should obey.
As I said further above, you might have concluded that, but not me. 
Not only me, but most JWS see evidence of God's spirit not only in their lives, but in the way the organization operates, in spite of imperfections. Sorry to disappoint you. 

It has- ( only the comment about the festival of Akito)  but the other is about developments in our timeline.  
I think AlanF should do some deeper thinking... but I think he is incapable of that.  He sees but does not see because he  summarily dismisses it  - if it does not fit his personal narrative.... too smart for his own good.
Are you for real?      Because you did nothing to expose him it has created such a hate and resentment in yourself which you have to live with...     Now you are blaming those who did not know about it! 

You must be reading something into this that isn't there. The quote I think you were trying to remember is probably this:
*** w17 February p. 26 par. 12 Who Is Leading God’s People Today? ***
The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction. . . .Of course, Jesus did not tell us that his faithful slave would produce perfect spiritual food.
 

Clown World is a thing I guess 🤡 

 

OH .... I have been watching the Presidential Impeachment hearings for five days, and I forgot the point of this post.
I probably just need to hyperventilate into a paper bag for a week or so.

Trump's House of Wings .wmv

That is a caption for the photo! 

That is a caption for the photo! 

Oh.... wrote an answer and lost it..... start again....
I totally agree with you.... so you win the bet.  Lol.    When I compare the developments in the world to the core knowledge we have - then my appreciation grows.
Yes, there are renegades among us who bring shame on us with their wickedness.  But were we not warned about the rocks in our love-feasts which we can stumble against?  
My life changed when I did an in-depth study of Islam (read Quran, some hadith and sirah)....... I thought through the social structures of Islam and its promises to rule the world...... and its laws...... It made me analyze society and what the future society under jehovah will look like.... in order to show the differences in Islam and Jehovahs government.  I also compared sharia law and Torah /talmud  with the self-sacrificing love and principles taught by the true messenger from God- jesus.
Atheists also have no moral compass for society to function well.  Good and bad is subjective to them - not objective.  We are all supposed to be equal under God. As society is slowly replacing God with post modern and other human philosophies,  we are seeing a regression of conditions in first world societies...... the incompatibility of the iron and clay..... 
The neo-communistic philosophies that have infiltrated western societies through the Frankfort school of thought (Marxism also wants to rule the world)  and its alliances with Islam in the west - this favours an undercurrent of clashes and in future.  The UN has already brought in strict laws against islamaphobia to maintain "peace and order "  and they will bring in further new society rules to accommodate  new identified minorities. 
So yes,  I do have a different kind of OCD than some of our friends. I revert back to appreciation of the CORE teachings of the bible that is so different to  a fast- regressing secular world.  The first things I learnt from the bible which gave me my first love for God. These radical new and secular developments give me a good sense of where we are in the stream of time. 

Thanks my dear.... well put.  These atheists display the personality of their "father".  They produce only insults and have no persuasion capabilities. Steamrolling and bullying is not my idea of a good conversation. Nothing important has been said by any of the smarty-pants to impress me! 
Regarding your last sentence: do not worry...... I think we will see enough developments in global affairs in the next three years which will give you the incentive to hold your head up high for a little longer past the 10 year mark..... we are on the brink of BIG life-altering political developments. Things are building up. 
 

To me, this is tops among the fine points you bring to the table. I don’t necessarily endorse them. But that is only because I do not have the background or sources that your have. You state things that no one else does, and you state them persuasively. You help me envision the truly monumental changes that we may soon have to adapt to. I appreciate that.
Meanwhile, as long as we remain busy in Jehovah’s service, as you, me, and several others are doing, we can hardly go wrong. He knows when his time has come, even as we struggle to read the tea leaves.

You used these words and made an incorrect assumption.  I do not fall for your bait.

When speaking with others of a different point of view, it is important to treat them with a modicum of respect. It is important not to taunt and ridicule and insult. Of course, if such is your only object, then it is okay to do these things, but not if your goal is to persuade. It is important to present oneself as cognizant to the laws of civility. That way, in the event that you actually do make a valid point, you find that it is not rejected out of hand by persons who simply resent how ill-mannered you are. My greatest fear is that Alan’s cherished evolution is right and that he is the final product of it. If so, kiss goodbye any future for the human race, for that is ensured, not by big dumb animals with horns ramming each other to prove ‘who’s da man?’ but with ordinary persons of moderate intellectual abilities and superior social skills—the latter of which our boy Alan has not a speck.
Arguably, this point highlighted above is valid. It is not a game-changer, but neither is it ridiculous. It may be that the “apostate” brush paints far too broadly and many regarded as such do not strictly fit the bill. They fit another bill, that of fomenting divisions, displaying an unyielding spirit to the point that unity and progress ceases, elevating self to godhood, or some such woe. It is in the Book somewhere—certainly the overall spirit should cover it.
It is sort of like that StarTrek episode where Picard snapped: “Those Stenchiites have been beating us over the head with that blasted treaty for days! There must be something in it that can benefit us!” There was. Provision in the treaty called for arbitration of disputes, the plaintiff to choose the arbiter, and so Picard chose the Sleepyites, now in the 2nd year of their 20 year hibernation state. For some reason that I do not recall, time was of the essence, and so the Stenchites yielded on their legalistic point.
Legalism only takes you so far, and is counterproductive if pushed beyond that point. It is like looking at those solid electrons that dissolve into mush if examined too closely. @Arauna is right when she concedes that Witness has a huge reservoir of verse, but she is totally unable to put them to any practical use. It is the same with AlanF. Yes, he knows a lot of facts and he shows off with them to the most anal degree, but when push comes to shove, what can he show for them? An ability to destroy a WorldNewsMediaForum thread, and not much more. He, like Witness, is good at tearing down (though in different ways). But can he build? Don’t make me laugh.
He ladles contempt on any who would stick to an arrangement that they know to be fallible. What in the world is wrong with him? Or his disciple, 4Jah2Me, who puts even “make mistakes” and “errs” under the electron microscope and discovers worlds of difference between them! He says—for he has not yet shed everything, as he presently will—that the end is at least ten years off. In that time, God will be able to raise up a pure anointed who represents him without flaw. I say, “Go for it!” Maybe you can start it up in your basement—as a collaboration with Witness. Ten years down the road I’ll take a look, and if in fact, you have pulled off the trick, I will join you.
Meanwhile, I will tell Kim Jung Un to hold off on the nukes, Trump to stop carrying on so others hate his guts, Xi to dismantle social rating and be nicer to those in his camps, Putin to “cut it out,” Greta to just be patient for a few more years. Yeah, go for it 4Jah2Me! I’m sure it will happen that way. Meanwhile, trash the good while holding out for the perfect.
Michael Hart wrote about Plato and his ideal government as realized in his concept of philosopher-kings, notable for their ability to convert their academic book-learning into practical results. The concept has never actually been implemented, Hart said. I wrote that it had been. Anyone familiar with Jehovah’s Witnesses will realize at once that his idealist concept fits almost to a tee their Governing Body.
https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2019/01/plato-and-the-governing-body.html
I’m serious with regard to 4Jah2Me. Ten years for God to make a better anointed that has enough Holy Spirit to satisfy him? Fine. Run with it. I’ll stay where I am in the meantime because JWs are quite plainly in the vanguard, even with their blunders. Besides, I don’t know how many of their blunders are actually blunders. I do note that John rejoiced that “SOME of your children are walking in the truth.” That’s a pretty weak statement. Don’t you think he would rather have said, “ALL of your children are walking in the truth?” Were the “some” that left all due to the ineptness of that early Christian governance? Or was it the best that could have been expected then (and now) in the course of letting light shine in a world that prefers darkness? “When the son of man arrives, will he really find the faith on earth?” Jesus asks. “Not if I can help it!” Alan says, with an upvote from 4Jah2Me.
So bring me what you have in ten years, and if it is the same, only minus the imperfections, count on my support. I’ll bolt. I’m not vested here. I am tired of guys who “make mistakes and err.” I want to be where they don’t make mistakes and they don’t err. Get cracking on it, and if there still is a system of things in ten years, I’ll join you.
 
 

Feel free. I can't really stay on today anyway. I might keep the computer open and access from a remote desktop on my phone, but I won't really be putting enough effort into answering. If you do feel like taking on AlanF's argumentation, have him sign a waiver that he'll read your whole answer before responding to it. Ithinks sometimes he just assumes what you must have said even if you didn't say it. Hold his feet (if you dare) to the fire, if you will. (Especially if your own itchy feet are contagious.)

Oooooh I gots itchy feet to answer all of Alan's arguments. But I won't butt in. Alan still has to reply to mine...

Totally agree. I come from Africa and know all about this.  I also preach to Muslims (arabic) and they sell their daughters to old men, the highest bidder.... or when they need cash.  My bible study was sold at age nine because her father needed the money for her older brother.  She had 4 children by age 17. .... and later 4 more.
I do not take you seriously because you are NOT a wise person. You cite tons of  scriptures but cannot apply them in a practical way.  It seems to be only knowledge and very little practical love.  A lot of judgment ..... too with no good suggestions..... just poison.
I do preach eternal life NOT hate like you do.  I am always aware that I am a sinner even though I do not commit gross sins.   I understand from scripture that I must be preaching (it is a duty for a true Christian) and I need to help a person to have a 'group of people'  - a body of people, with practical infrastucture for meetings and preaching ,  where they can incite each other to fine works and receive encouragement. 
I cannot take interested ones to a church because they teach a dogma of immortality of the soul - they teach that jesus did not really die.  I read in the bible that in last days there will be a "slave" providing spiritual food. Matt 24:45.  I also read in Isaiah 2:2-4 that there will be one nation in the world comprised of all nations that do not do war....... so OK - JWs fit these bible descriptions.
So now,  I expect to have spiritual association - BUT to still be the master of my own faith.  Do I expect some of thesepeople to deviate and become apostates - yes the bible warns against this.  Do i expect a measure of protection - maybe a little .... but how much - this the real question? 
If I expect perfect protection from everything that can go wrong...... then I must also expect the group leaders to mix in my private life to find out everything about me (past and present) and make everything known about me...... so others can be protected from my bad inclinations.  This sounds like the scientologists..... 
So obviously, there needs to be balance regarding the protection given...... and what about the parent's responsibility?  Must elders take this over too?  
So.... where there is freedom with personal responsibility - there will always be those who expect perfection and personal accountability from other individuals for their own mishaps..... or their own parent's oversight.
A call for perfect protection because an organization is religious is claptrap and based on a naive conception of the world.  When a person has been convicted in court or enough evidence collected for shunning then this is a different matter.  But as I said before - even professionals struggle to get the evidence..... So now they accuse the GB of being too unprofessional in their protection policies.  I guess these people should have joined the scientologists who have a better surveillance system. 
I do believe the GB should have reviewed their policies sooner - in line with the new government laws as they improved in each country - but they cannot protect every person from every danger.  It is the parent's duty to give that protection so the child is never in a compromising situation. 
The one law which governments have not yet changed is the law relating to confessional protection.  Lawyers and clergy have this.   The catholic church has refused to use confessions from people against them as well - as in JWs.    
What is WRONG in the catholic practice is this: the Catholics have moved clergy AFTER legal convictions were obtained or evidence was given and payouts made ....it is  pattern or practice in the organization.   Child molestation is everywhere where there are children..... and escalating by law right now as a legal blind eye is held when children are married against their will at age nine.
 
 

"Oh- so you said-"    is a tactic of putting words in my mouth I did not say.  I see you use this a lot.  
What I am saying that "scholars" were hoodwinked by pedophiles  so why would "uninspired" elders not be hoodwinked?  You are the one with unreasonable standards and bias.