Arauna

I write from memory but as far as I remember this refers to the period after Jesus started ruling in heaven during the first world war. Mal 3 refers to the cleansing which took place in this time.
The king of the fortresses after this in Daniel 11  then then stands up (Russia) and the king of the south pushes against him (cold war era).  The last part of verse 40 and 41 - 44 will soon go into fulfillment.   ( I also think that Russia and China have the same imperialistic goals at present).   The west has almost been conquered by the cultural communistic agenda and the One World Government of the UN is starting to rule covertly as we speak. (Look at other headings on this forum such as Migrant compact 2018).They want the full Agenda 2030 to be in place by the year 2030.
The Northern Seleucid king Antiochus IV put Zeus in the temple at Jerusalem and profaned it - this will happen again because they will force all religions to accept the UN god - the old god of the fortresses (UN religion will be forced on us) which will run this system of things.  The morality the UN will prescribe like a bible -  will be the new morality we are starting to see appearing out in the open in gender politics with transgenderism totally accepted and being indoctrinated in universities and schools.   They will expect all religions to accept this as well or face the consequences....it may be at this time that priests, rabbis and imams pretend not to be religious leaders etc.....religion will be unfashionable.     UN will call peace and security and then all hell will break lose.
 

@Arauna Quote "Accusations, accusations of being institutionalized problem." Well it seems to be quite widely spread within the JW Org doesn't it ? Or as I've said to others, do you not believe any of the victims evidence ? 
Quote " all I see is a lot of whiners about sex abuse and they only have hearsay as proof " 
Um, that kind of proves you do not believe any of the victims I suppose. 
As a victim of child abuse myself, I have empathy for others. 
Quote "We do our duty in the congregation "  what a large generalisation that is. 
Many of the Child Abuse cases are against ELDERS. Elders that are supposed to be protecting the congregation.
And, many of the cases are dismissed as lies. The two witness rule that you don't seem to believe happens. 
So, it could quite easily be that, if for example here in the UK an inquiry found evidence of 500 cases of Child Abuse allegations, there  could have been another 500 that were dismissed by Elders as lies, and therefore not recorded. 
What a wonderful ploy it would be to show only half the figures. Wow, look the JW Org recorded Child Abuse accusations, but how much evidence did they destroy to only show what they wanted to show ? 
There was a video actually put up on this forum which shows that instruction was given to destroy evidence. but of course you will not believe that either, because you are so blind. 
To be slightly balanced. A lot of the scriptural teachings are great. Not perfect I suppose but good. And I would say that being 'within' the Org in my wild youth, may have helped me to have more moral standards than i otherwise might have had. 
But i do realise i was stupid enough back then to just accept all I was taught. My older brother was a JW and he did a lot to support me whilst I was going through a really bad time. So i thought if he believes it then it must be true. Crazy notion I realise now. 
Having come out of a very wicked situation back then, and having found the congregation so pleasant and helpful, i was fooled into a false sense of security.  Knowing what i know now, I can see the reality.
That is balance. I do know the wicked world, I do know the JW org. I have been in at least three congregations in Southern England, having moved around a bit.  I can compare situations. I'm not as naive as you pretend I am. 
You on the other hand appear blind to the reality of what your JW Org is really like. 
i'm not saying it's not the Organisation that God will use, but I'm saying God has to clean it out thoroughly now. 
And God may by using humans to help him just as He as done in the past. 

Quote : " Any case I found a new tit-bit.  On the JW app is says that the beast with the seven heads has a different kind of rulership than the Eighth king. Small difference but significant. "
Wow, and of course you will believe anything the GB tells you, even though they have a massive history of GETTING THINGS WRONG. 

If I remember right, I think it was @Srecko Sostar who I asked.

@Arauna  I can tell you are on autopilot, automatically defending the GB and its JW Org. So there is no point in me making a sensible reply. You do sound like a robot though, spewing out all the GB dribble like a computer gone wrong. 
Quite entertaining for a Sunday morning. 
 
 

I saw that you just accuse and accuse the GB and your knowledge is very little.... so I usually do not argue with people  who think they know it all and have so little knowledge.  You also seem very immature and your reasoning does not have much logic going on.....  .... well.  I think Anna has been patient with you and kind.....   I would not be so nice...   
 
What you want is a proper witch hunt of JWs to go after a person in public and persecute him.....maybe get a newspaper article?   You do not sound reasonable at all.   We do our duty in the congregation and we do it in the reporting to the police  (if there are legal laws in place).  What else do you suggest we do? I recall Anna asking you this question and you did not answer it.
If there are no legal laws for reporting  the crime in place then police are not obliged to follow it up - logic conclusion heh?   Does this compute?  Even if there are laws in place it seems the police are too busy to do anything regarding the matter these days.
The person involved must then file a civil law suit.... maybe the incentive to get a lot of money will get them to report it.... 
Mr Butler - It is easy to take the moral high ground and try to prove you are so righteous and justified to  criticize the GB and elders....... but I do not think you have any experience in running such a large organization and you cannot even imagine it.... if you could you would have shown more reasonableness.
You may find yourself one day being accused of a crime you did not commit - then you will be grateful for people showing caution to not just condemn you without proper evidence.  There is two sides to every case.

Yes - there were no proper laws to prosecute people back then.  It is the fault of congress for not having decent laws.   I was alive in the 50, 60s.   It was only in the 60s when people started to talk about sex with "flower power" and the sex revolution took place.  It took much longer for sexual abuse to be discussed in public.  Only after this laws started to appear in some first world countries but they were very weak laws to be able to get a conviction. 

I did not read the comments above.  I did my own research on the history of the laws regarding this subject a few years back.  I just get so sick of those who always want to put the Organization in the bad light - they use the available information to twist the truth to look like the organization is full of pedophiles and condoners of it.
In Australia  there were records to the effect that Jw's had about a  thousand people since 1950 - which means , in the last 70 years - these were alleged child sex abusers.  Some of these were accused but there was not sufficient proof to put them out of the congregation.  In this time there were about 40 years that there were no proper laws in place to prosecute - and later when they could there were still not child services readily available and the laws were very bad.  It did not protect the child from a victimization via the court system.
Of all the organizations interviewed (almost 2000) - our organization was the only organization (of all the churches, youth organizations, sports organizations that work with children) which kept notes on these people because there were not laws in place to prosecute.  JWs kept notes on them so they could not go to another congregation and not be informed upon.
While it is a heinous crime and bad people can slip into the organization I think people are incredibly naive if they think that this number is high.  
In 2003 a law was passed in United States which made prosecution of sex offenders easier.  Before that the child could be cross-examined in court by the defender's hostile representatives.  They allowed for taped evidence etc. 
It is easy to look back with todays laws in place and judge the past on this.   I have mentioned it before on this forum and then the very same people after a while open up the same subject again - which means that they are not prepared to be reasonable and really weigh the evidence.
The purpose of the Australian inquiry was to address the gaps in the law and they were investigating the procedures various organizations were following to  find out where the gaps were so better legislation can be put in place.

I saw that you just accuse and accuse the GB and your knowledge is very little.... so I usually do not argue with people  who think they know it all and have so little knowledge.  You also seem very immature and your reasoning does not have much logic going on.....  .... well.  I think Anna has been patient with you and kind.....   I would not be so nice...   
 
What you want is a proper witch hunt of JWs to go after a person in public and persecute him.....maybe get a newspaper article?   You do not sound reasonable at all.   We do our duty in the congregation and we do it in the reporting to the police  (if there are legal laws in place).  What else do you suggest we do? I recall Anna asking you this question and you did not answer it.
If there are no legal laws for reporting  the crime in place then police are not obliged to follow it up - logic conclusion heh?   Does this compute?  Even if there are laws in place it seems the police are too busy to do anything regarding the matter these days.
The person involved must then file a civil law suit.... maybe the incentive to get a lot of money will get them to report it.... 
Mr Butler - It is easy to take the moral high ground and try to prove you are so righteous and justified to  criticize the GB and elders....... but I do not think you have any experience in running such a large organization and you cannot even imagine it.... if you could you would have shown more reasonableness.
You may find yourself one day being accused of a crime you did not commit - then you will be grateful for people showing caution to not just condemn you without proper evidence.  There is two sides to every case.

11.25 pm Friday,  That's over 24 hours and NO reply from local Police on the matter. 

It is not a problem, it is exactly how it is. The jurisdictional system in a congregation deals with sin, the Jurisdictional system of the Government deals with crime and both can be applied to the same instance at the same time. In the case of child sexual molestation, it is both, a sin and a crime. So both jurisdictional systems are needed.
It might seem like that. But if you read the context, and other scriptures which talk about this subject, then it becomes clear that for Christians, God is to be obeyed above anyone: Acts 5:29: "In answer Peter and the other apostles said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men". For example, secular law does not prohibit Adultery or fornication. However God does.
So, as you say, there are two parallel  jurisdictional systems. One is religious, based on sin (adultery and fornication are a sin), the other one is secular, based on crime (adultery and fornication are not a crime).  That is why Paul was able to say: "After all, it is none of my business to judge outsiders. God will judge them. But should you not judge the members of your own fellowship? As the scripture says, “Remove the evil person from your group.” (1 Corinthians 5:12-13).
These would have been personal disputes between two brothers (or sisters) that did not involve a sin or a crime.  It would be better if these brothers could handle this between themselves peacefully, rather than get "worldly" courts to judge who was right and who was wrong.
Possibly. But in any case, we can be sure that ultimately God will judge everyone (Romans 14:12)
If you were an elder, what decision would you make?

The problem with that reasoning is that what has to happen for time to tell? Another child is molested? Do we "sacrifice" another child so when that happens we then know for 'sure' this person is a danger and needs to be constrained in a more effective way? (i.e. prison and counseling etc.).
In cases of child sexual molestation, unlike other judicial cases (adultery, fornication etc.)  the congregation will be informed according to the new guidelines:
par. 11. If it is determined that one guilty of child sexual abuse is repentant and will remain in the congregation, restrictions are imposed on the individual’s congregation activities. The individual will be specifically admonished by the elders not to be alone in the company of children, not to cultivate friendships with children, or display any affection for children. In addition, elders will inform parents of minors within the congregation of the need to monitor their children’s interaction with the individual.
https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/legal-resources/information/packet-jw-scripturally-based-position-child-protection/
 

As you has seen from short video, Richard Asch, WT REPRESENTATIVE has said clearly how elders duty is only to provide spiritual safety aka  guidance, support, monitoring, keep congregation clear and similar.
Because such WT position, JW congregations not need any secular lawyers in their midst, in their Spiritual Worldwide Paradise. Why don't need? Because all problems can be settled between brothers or in worst scenario,  by ELDERS.
WT need Lawyers primarily because of BUSINESS!!!!!   

It's not a laughing matter and it's not that simple. It would be great if it was! By your comment I can see that you have never had any experience with something as complex as this. In fact it shows me you have absolutely no idea. Why don't you at least do some reading up on the subject, to educate yourself, before you make thoughtless sweeping statements like this.
Here are a few things to start you off:
https://www.socialworker.com/feature-articles/ethics-articles/To_Report_or_Not_To_Report%3A_That_Is_the_Ethical_Dilemma/
http://psycnet.apa.org/buy/1999-04243-002
https://www.mnpsych.org/index.php?option=com_dailyplanetblog&view=entry&category=industry news&id=172:the-importance-of-being-earnest-ethics-and-child-abuse-reporting
https://www.psychiatryadvisor.com/childadolescent-psychiatry/mandatory-reporting-of-child-abuse/article/802017/
Before you say that these articles apply to social workers, therapists only,  you need to realize that disclosures made to elders are no different, and that elders experience the same dilemmas because the information given to them may be the same as that given to social workers, therapists etc.
 
 

What nonsense. Has it not occurred to you that just as you are concerned about slander and defamation, then so are the elders. You know you cannot just nilly willy hand out confidential information about others. So you are not willing to do it yourself, to go that extra mile, why? You don't know anything about the information the elders have in your congregation at all. You don't even know whether they went to the police or not. Everything you say about your elders and the case are just assumptions.  And you just keep making one excuse after another for why you will not go to secular authorities. If you don't want to go to the police, or the elders, why don't you at least go to social services? I mean I am hoping you are worried about the perpetrator molesting someone else. Or are you not worried?

@Anna you have been well trained (brain washed) by the JW org.  I do hope nothing of these sorts ever happens to you or your family. 
Yes I'm sure you would tell my local elders if i gave you their phone numbers, tell them to destroy evidence that is. 
i didn't find that piece of paper with the details on, maybe I destroyed it.  I honestly cannot remember the man's name, so now i have no info at all. Oh well if the Elders can destroy evidence and still think they have peace with God ...... 

You are funny. This is what we have been talking about. When the law of the land "the authorities" obligate a person who has heard of an allegation of CSA to report to the authorities, then JWs will report to the authorities.

11. If it is determined that one guilty of child sexual abuse is repentant and will remain in the
congregation, restrictions are imposed on the individual’s congregation activities. The individual will
be specifically admonished by the elders not to be alone in the company of children, not to cultivate
friendships with children, or display any affection for children. In addition, elders will inform parents
of minors within the congregation of the need to monitor their children’s interaction with the individual
Yes John, I want all those little children in your congregation to be molested
Keep making excuses. Heck John, give me one of your elders emails and I will tell them myself!
 
Correct, they are not bound by scripture if there is no law to report to the police. They are only bound by scripture to deal with it in the congregation. It is not in their jurisdiction to go beyond what the survivor/victim wants. If the survivor/victim does not want it reported, and it is not the law for them to do so, then the elders have no obligation to report scripturally or secularly. HOWEVER if the elders discern that other children, or the victim is still in danger, then the elders will take it upon themselves to report to the police. But this is left to their discretion and their own conscience. In other instances they may actually be advised by the branch to report even if there is no legal duty to do so.
5. When elders learn of an accusation of child abuse, they immediately consult with the branch
office of Jehovah’s Witnesses to ensure compliance with child abuse reporting laws. (Romans 13:1)
Even if the elders have no legal duty to report an accusation to the authorities, the branch office of Jehovah’s
Witnesses will instruct the elders to report the matter if a minor is still in danger of abuse or
there is some other valid reason. Elders also ensure that the victim’s parents are informed of an accusation
of child abuse. If the alleged abuser is one of the victim’s parents, the elders will inform the
other parent.
Yes, of course, it is the elders obligation. But there is only so much they can reasonably do, as you say "if it is possible for them to do so".

Let’s put a few things into perspective:
1) A survivor of a sexual attack (JW or Non JW) is NEVER obligated to report the assault to the Police. Never.
2). A JW survivor of a sexual attack (if perpetrator is JW) is scripturally obligated to report this to the Elders in the same way that someone finding out about adultery is scripturally obligated to tell the elders so the wicked man can be removed:  1 Corinthians 5:9-12. And vs 5 “you must hand such a man over to Satan” and (Deutoronomy 17:7) “you must remove what is bad from your midst”. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that if wrongdoing in a congregation was covered up, then Jehovah would remove his spirit from that congregation. A congregation must be kept morally clean.
3) If the law of the land does not obligate second parties to inform the Police, then the reporting can be left to the first party.
4) If the law of the land obligates second parties (or anyone who learns of merely an allegation) to report to the police, then they will and must report to the police. (John Butler!)
With this information, please use your intelligence to figure out the various scenarios possible in the case of child sexual molestation.
 

 

 
 

I did not read the comments above.  I did my own research on the history of the laws regarding this subject a few years back.  I just get so sick of those who always want to put the Organization in the bad light - they use the available information to twist the truth to look like the organization is full of pedophiles and condoners of it.
In Australia  there were records to the effect that Jw's had about a  thousand people since 1950 - which means , in the last 70 years - these were alleged child sex abusers.  Some of these were accused but there was not sufficient proof to put them out of the congregation.  In this time there were about 40 years that there were no proper laws in place to prosecute - and later when they could there were still not child services readily available and the laws were very bad.  It did not protect the child from a victimization via the court system.
Of all the organizations interviewed (almost 2000) - our organization was the only organization (of all the churches, youth organizations, sports organizations that work with children) which kept notes on these people because there were not laws in place to prosecute.  JWs kept notes on them so they could not go to another congregation and not be informed upon.
While it is a heinous crime and bad people can slip into the organization I think people are incredibly naive if they think that this number is high.  
In 2003 a law was passed in United States which made prosecution of sex offenders easier.  Before that the child could be cross-examined in court by the defender's hostile representatives.  They allowed for taped evidence etc. 
It is easy to look back with todays laws in place and judge the past on this.   I have mentioned it before on this forum and then the very same people after a while open up the same subject again - which means that they are not prepared to be reasonable and really weigh the evidence.
The purpose of the Australian inquiry was to address the gaps in the law and they were investigating the procedures various organizations were following to  find out where the gaps were so better legislation can be put in place.

If i can recall this post of John about this information (correct me if it is wrong) John has heard that from other person. So now, we here are in some similar, strange position, because we heard, about crime that has happened, from John. 
I think how some scientific discipline, like sociology and psychology, could explain what happens inside people in such situations we talking about. Why do we react or not react? How do we react? Why we do not want to interfere in someone else's problems? Why it easier to be passive and to go on other side? .... etc. 

bah, I do not believe you. 
I believe you would talk to elders and then keep quiet so that you don't make Jehovah sad. 
That's policy, right? 

Ye all harken! John Butler from a little town in the UK knows!
This has nothing to do with slander. You say the elders already know the whole case. You going to the elders would be to ask them if they have gone to the police, and if not, to tell them that as someone who has learned of an allegation, you are obliged by law to go. You are just giving them heads up.  This conversation doesn't have to be awkward or nasty, just polite and to the point. You don't have to tell them who told you or how you know. You need to call them, and set up an appointment to see them, or for them to come to your house. All you need to say is that you have something of a very serious matter to talk to them about. Why don't you give them a chance John, instead of accusing them of things you really have no proof of? 
Seriously? Of course if you started going into an emotional rant about how the org purposefully hides pedos in the congregations and that all JW teachings are false,  then maybe. But you will be talking to them very briefly, letting them know, because it's only fair, that you will be going to the Police with the information you have been given because it is your duty as a citizen of the country. That's all.  
I was clearly being sarcastic John. I think it's a real shame you are so reluctant to do your part in protecting children, considering you seem to be so concerned about it. I am beginning to wonder......
You can be certain that if I had got the information you did, I would have gone to the police and elders the next day! So who is more concerned?

Can someone please tell me what the laws were in the 1950s, 1960, 1970 and 1980s in most countries of the world?   If you can answer this then I am prepared to talk to you.  You seem to rush to condemn the organization for not doing something when there were not yet laws in place.... so hurry and do some research!
 

Oh what massive lies the GB and their legal departments tell.
What they put in print does not match up with what they do in practice. 
Unless you want to believe that all the VICTIMS tell lies. 
But then you probably don't want the truth on this matter. 
Get it in your head, the GB didn't care. The victims were just collateral damage, expendable. 
The GB care now of course because the truth is made known and the GB and the JW org is suffering financially and losing face.. 
But what is most important is that God and His son have been brought low and made objects of insult.