Arauna

Still no evidence presented. Just bald assertions.
And of course, no one presented even one iotum of argumentation against what I posted above.
You've learned well from Mommy Watch Tower.
AlanF

allensmith28
Further, what must be born in mind that Chronology is not just a set of numbers on paper that can be made to fit any argument according to one's bias or opinion and this why biblical chronology varies so much between scholars. Chronology simply charters history so must be built on a solid historical base and history is about people and their lives so one must not only look at a pretty colourful chart but see beyond the page and comprehend whether such a scheme can relate to human experience. In this case, a period of six months based on two calenders that already have a floating six month difference can be very problematic.
Also, one should further consider that within scholarship there are numerous scholarly papers in reputable journals that try to resolve the Nisan-Tishri problem and that is a very complex field of study for we simply do not know with certainty what Calender, Ezra used in dating the first year of Cyrus.
scholar JW emeritus

Free AS28! Free AS28! Free AS28!
He has done his time. He is repentant. And he manfully fights a disability. @The Librarian- The Americans With Disabilities Act compels you to act.
Come now - he is flawed, but the Assyrian is at the gates, taunting (boy, does he ever!) godly interests. The forces of theocracy needs him! - I am too dumb to weigh in. Few Witnesses are up on this stuff.
At least give him time for his glorious 'stache to grow back, then set him between the very pillars of peer-reviewed excellence, so he can bring down their house upon them.

allensmith28
Alan F first raised his hypothesis on the JWD forum about August 2006 presented with a tabulation of events from Tishri, 539 BCE to Iyyar, 536 BCE. This tabulation would cover those events around the return of the Jews. He states the following:
1. Cyrus issued his Decree in his 1st year, Nisan 538 BCE counting from Month 1
2. The Jews arrived in Judah in Month 6 in Cyrus' 1st year, Elul, 538 BCE
3. The Jews are settled in their cities in Month 7, in Cyrus', Tishri, 538 BCE
What this shows that within a period of 6 full months all of the events as described in Ezra 1:1-3:1 which of course is plain and utter nonsense. Alan F has already admitted that the journey would have taken at a minimum, 4 months so one can that this is simply a 'contrivance' designed to mislead the reader.
Now, COJ is no fool and he has had plenty of time to deal with this issue and even now he could easily post an ADDENDUM in support of Alan F's hypothesis but to date Jonsson has simply confined this issue to a footnote with two scholarly references and does not share Alan's dogmatism that 538 BCE is the only possible date for the Return or wording thus similar.
scholar JW emeritus

Continuing to entertain us.
AlanF

We have clear instructions on how elders must be chosen - no females.  So if an anointed were on earth now in human form (before obtaining her heavenly calling where there will be no biological females - should they then serve as elders - now? 
 

Fair enough. I will abide by these guidelines.
I will not be responding to pathological liars, though.
AlanF

GASP! Not you, too??! It wasn't because you made light of anyone, was it? hehehehe :))))))
yeah, Alan is a bit of a hothead at times - no one would dispute that. But when he is on, he is on, and his input is both unique and valuable.
I can join he and Nana to form a WNM Trinity for the infamous thread I was put in charge of where I was apparently expected to play nice with apostates and declined to do it and so the whole thread disappeared.
Having said this, and as much as I rib @The Librarian (the old hen), she has a tough job, I think does she the best she can.  I would vacate - as I did on one other site - if people here were as steadfastly nasty as they were there. She prevents that from happening, so if I have to take a shot now and again, I'll go along with her wishes until I can't - and I doubt that situation will arise.
I think a lot of ones here are unstable, and a few are downright crazy. I do not exclude myself from this statement - I am not without issues. They must be cut some slack. But to carry on too much about rebukes given is to be the same as those who bitch endlessly about the GB. Somebody has to drive. She has earned her seat. It is not for me to change her, but to go elsewhere if we absolutely can't get along. That is why I try to get along.

... be thankful dueling is no longer in fashion ....

Sorry. He is busy helping me today
If those greater minds are as unrelentingly unpleasant, condescending and just plain nasty as this fellow was, you frankly must wonder just how great can they be. 
Definitions of 'wisdom' differ. I think he would gag on the one James supplies at 3:17, to say nothing of Proverbs 11:2. 
 

From the 'Neil-Speak Glossary':
        Fact: /fakt/ : noun
        plural noun: facts
a thing that is imagined to be true but bears no resemblance to objective reality. post-truth, Trumpian, 'alternative facts'.  also commonly known as 'BS'.  

@AlanF

I must admit ... I do enjoy the dual edged bladed agenda driven conversions on this topic.
It reminds me of what author Stephen King said about writing one of his books ... I think it was "The Strand", where he had so many characters running around on the pages he could not keep up with them ... so he wrote in an explosion that wiped most of them out.
18 pages of debate to support something that may or may not have happened outside the physical Universe 100 or so years ago ... that was, or is invisible, to me (here comes a variation on one of my favorite expressions ...) is like milking a mouse because you need to make five pounds of cheese .... which has already been sold in advance.
That's a LOT of work !
So .... what's a simple Barbarian like myself to think with all these arguments and counter-arguments ...
I think I will make a bucket of popcorn! .... and watch the show!
Carry on Troops!

You had listed your source as this, Nana: 
The Bible Dictionary was commenting on the Nabonidus Chronicle but, because the Bible Dictionary was published in the 19th century, its dating of the Persian conquest of Babylon was a year out.
The Nabonidus Chronicle only gives a damaged '17th year' of Nabonidus for Babylon's fall - it doesn't contain BCE dating. The modern scholar has to deduce the BCE date by other means. As I said, the Bible Dictionary was out a year.
Nice try, though.

..... when all is said ...and done......

There is very little evidence for this. The Bible does not say that these 745 captives -- almost the same number taken in Nebuchadnezzar's 19th year -- came from Egypt, Ammon or Moab. It's true that Nebuchadnezzar continued to devastate and desolate the nations around Judea. After all, Jeremiah said that Babylon would be given 70 years of domination, so this is to be expected. But the theory in the Insight book, is still only a theory as you can tell by the word 'probably.' The supposed evidence from Josephus only tells us what we should already know, but Josephus does not say that this is where any of the 745 captives came from either. Also it does not take into account that the Bible says it was Nebuzaradan, NOT Nebuchadnezzar who took these captives, and the Bible only mentions Nebuzaradan in connection with the area around Jerusalem, starting with the very destruction of Jerusalem and the assignment of poor people to continue on the land. 
This is all true, of course. And it highlights the truth that the fullest period of Judea's desolation could be focused on the time of the destruction of the nation's capital Jerusalem. But I'm pointing out that if you look at the details, you can see that this was a process, and not something that magically happened the instant Jerusalem fell. If it were true that those 745 exiles were somehow explicitly separated from those which Nebuchadnezzar took in 598, then this might be evidence that Neb's 19th year was that 'magic' turning point. Instead we are told that there was another captivity, 5 years later, and can see that it is bundled in with the total, 6400. They are described as if associated with those found in Jerusalem and the surrounding area. If the 745 were taken from Egypt for example, this would be of great importance to the theme of how Nebuzaradan went so far out of his way to fulfill the word of Jehovah through Jeremiah. No one doubts, I hope, that the Bible's claims came true that Jerusalem and Judea were devastated to the point of complete desolation. But the evidence in the Bible never points to a full 70 years from the time of Jerusalem's destruction. If this had been the true point of the bible record then why point out that poor people were assigned to stay on the land to work the land and be vinedressers, as mentioned. 
Judea went into exile in the manner described, but the manner described includes multiple exiles going back before the destruction of Jerusalem and continuing after it. The destruction of the temple and the tearing down of the walls of Jerusalem was the key in its destruction, because there was no more material safety (the wall), and then Jehovah had obviously allowed the destruction of the symbol for spiritual safety (the temple).
Concerning Riblah and Hamath we can see that Nebuzaradan really was working separately from Nebuchadnezzar, which fits an idea that we also can get from the Babylonian Chronicles. We see that he traveled northward, past the Judea border and probably well past the old Israelite border to meet up with the king.
*** it-1 p. 1025 Hamath ***
The exact location of this boundary (or place) is not certain. It was reckoned as the northern boundary of Israel’s territory (Nu 34:8; 1Ki 8:65; 2Ki 14:25; 2Ch 7:8) and as bordering on Damascus. (Jer 49:23; Eze 47:15-17; 48:1; Zec 9:1, 2) Some think it was the southern extremity of the Coele-Syria Valley (also called the Beqaʽ), which runs between the Lebanon and Anti-Lebanon mountain ranges. Others say it was halfway between Baalbek and Riblah. Yet others suggest it was still farther N where the pass opens up between Homs and the sea.—Eze 47:20.  
 

I feel privileged as though watching a superhero movie with fantastic heroes and villains converging, ready for combat & settling old grudges once and for all. But what will happen if I get up for popcorn or to use the restroom?
(wait till @Top Cat O'Malighan reveals his true identity)
(and just where does the Librarian fit in? What great personage was she back in the day before ruin set in and she gathered some books to start a new persona?)
(and exactly who is @Ann O'Maly and how did she get her paws on every paper that's ever been printed?)
(why does @AlanF call @scholar JW Scholar Pretendus and how did Christopher Hitchens become Yoda the wise?)
(has @JW Insider succeeded beyond his dreams summoning up the spirits, perhaps scaring even himself?)
(who is Neil Galt?)
(Am I full of you-know-what?)

Alan F
Yes Alan, let's get some facts.
I shan't worry about your early comments on 1914 as these are simply nonsense. As this post is about 607 BCE let us stick to that!
No, the pivotal date for WT chronology is 539 BCE and not 537 BCE and there is no speculation associated with the calculation of 537 BCE for it is a 'stand alone' date based on the historical events described 2 Chronicles 36:22-23 and Ezra 1:1-3:1-7.
The word speculation is defined as: contemplation along with other related meanings such as conjecture but nothing of that sort is present in WT publications discussing the chronology of the Return of the Jewish Exiles. The date 537 BCE is well established historically, biblically and in accordance with sound principles of Chronology. The WT publications clearly outline all of the data associated with this period and a relevant dating is thereby established as outlined. There is nothing 'bogus' or 'fuzzy' here. In fact, even Carl Jonsson has not found any problems with our Methodology  simply proposing 537 or 538 BCE for the Return.In fact, biblical historians leave this matter open by simply either omitting a precise date or giving a suggestive date for the Return.
Your date of 538 BCE does not fit the evidence and is a poor choice, yes you can make it fit but it is a tight squeeze, for 537 BCE is just a nice fit, comfortable in scope and nature.
Your claim that Jeremiah's 'seventy years' represents only a period of Babylonian hegemony over the Near East is only partially correct for this period also represents total desolation of Jerusalem and Judah and the Exile for and in Babylon.No other theory than this fits all of the biblical, historical data coincides with secular history namely Josephus and fits well within the OT theological context.
scholar JW
 
 

I was talking about contributors who believe that the anointed will come back in the flesh to live on earth after they have already received their heavenly calling.  I was NOT talking about the anointed on earth today who have not yet been given a heavenly body.
Jesus did not come back in the flesh and ‘live’ amongst the people on earth did he?   He came back for only 50 days before he went back to his father.
 
I think they do a pretty good job of the training work they are doing in all the earth.  It is hard to manage so many different societies with so many different histories, previous religions and cultures and maintain functioning unity and harmony. How would you have managed it? 
I see you call it rules….  Well, to manage such a large family and keep out those who foment false teachings and divisions – there should be guidelines.  One shoe cannot fit all situations and therefore a body of elders should use their own combined discretion in situations where there are no guidelines. But there should be some form of uniformity in all the earth. It is not a perfect system but it works….we are still on this side of Armageddon – nothing is perfect.
I do not think you understand what the word "rule" means.  The letters in Arabic - which is close to the Hebrew- means to judge.  This means that "decisions” will be made regarding the administration of the restoration of the earth and of individual people – who may not be cooperating. 
One need not be among the people 'physically' to do this - just like a board of a company does not have to be present physically to make decisions about a company.
I also said - this does not mean that they will not be able to materialize for special purposes.  However, Jehovah is the perfect planner and everything he does has logic to it:-  
Why will he give a heavenly ‘reward’ and then bring them back to earth in materialized form to live on earth for thousand years.    Would it not have been more practical to let them stay here on earth in human form and then take them to heaven AFTER the 1000 years?   
As I said before - adopted sons of Jehovah will be part of his heavenly family like the other sons. 
Their bodies:
Rom 8:23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our ‘bodies’ by ransom. 
1 Cor 15: 50 But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
 The Place:
Rev 3:21 To the one who conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, just as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.
Hebrew 8:1 – What tent is spoken of in these verses? The temple in earthly/fleshly Jerusalem or the heavenly one?
“…and he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister of the holy place and of the true tent, which Jehovah set up, and not man. 
4  If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, since there are already men who offer the gifts according to the Law. These men are offering sacred service in a typical representation and a shadow of the heavenly things;
Hebrews 9: For its part, the former covenant used to have legal requirements for sacred service and its holy place on earth.
24 For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself,
The reality of the new covenant is in heaven - 
Hebrews 10: for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, which he opened up for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh, 
(Entire Hebrews 10 is about Jesus offering up his flesh - a fleshly body was prepared for him as sacrifice - so will the anointed offer up their flesh)
Hebrews 12:22  But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens,
. God will be present in this city:
Revelation 22: And there will no longer be any curse. But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his slaves will offer him sacred service; and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings forever and ever.
NEW NATION and citizenship:
Phil 3:20 But our citizenship exists in the heavens, and we are eagerly waiting for a savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our humble body to be like his glorious body by his great power that enables him to subject all things to himself.
MT ZION: Isaiah 8 :18 Jehovah resides on Mount Zion.  
(apologies for the format - it is late and I want to go to bed)

2 CRON 36:20 + 21
20 He took all the survivors to Babylonia, where they served him and his descendants as slaves until the rise of the Persian Empire. 21 And so what the Lord had foretold through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: “The land will lie desolate for seventy years, to make up for the Sabbath rest[c] that has not been observed.”
Daniel 9
Darius the Mede, who was the son of Xerxes, ruled over the kingdom of Babylonia. 2 In the first year of his reign I was studying the sacred books and thinking about the seventy years that Jerusalem would be in ruins, according to what the Lord had told the prophet Jeremiah. 3
 
Jeremiah 29:10Good News Translation (GNT)
10 “The Lord says, ‘When Babylonia's seventy years are over, I will show my concern for you and keep my promise to bring you back home.
 
Jeremiah 25:
11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.
12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, a
 
The books of Daniel and Chronicles confirm what Jeremia said:  

As usual, JW defenders with their preset agenda are here making pronouncements on subjects they know little or nothing about. I'll disabuse them of some of their notions with facts.
On 1914:
C. T. Russell made the 1914 date the linchpin of his chronological doctrinal structure beginning in 1876. His creation, the Watch Tower Society, has continued with this false structure through today.
How do we know that Russell's chronological structure is false? By many methods, but what I'll mention here is that the proof is in the pudding:
Not a single one of Russell's predictions for visible events based on that structure came true.
Not one of the supposedly Bible-based claims made by Russell's successors in the Watch Tower Society for the post-1914 period are valid:
Famine in the world has, on average, been much less severe than pre-1914.
Pestilence in the world has, on average, been much less severe than pre-1914.
War has been, on average, nearly the same in terms of per capita killed than pre-1914.
Earthquake frequency and intensity have been about the same as pre-1914. The risk of death due to earthquakes is substantially lower than pre-1914; the per-capita death rate in the 18th century was about 2 1/2 times lower than in the 20th century.
Had the mass killers of history claimed by the Watch Tower Society to have been operating on an unprecedently high level since 1914 actually been so operating, they would have killed an unprecedently high percentage of world population, resulting in a massive population crash. Yet we see a massive population explosion beginning in the early 1800s and continuing without letup through today.
Yes, today there are many potential severe killers on the loose: global warming, political crises, war, etc. But these do not support the Watch Tower Society's tradition about post-1914 events (e.g. famine, pestilence, war, earthquakes). Thus, trouble in the world today is irrelevent to the Watch Tower Society's claims about events beginning in 1914.

On 607:
The Watch Tower Society's pivotal date for its 1914 chronology is 537 BCE, which it bases on speculation that there were about two years between the fall of Babylon in 539 BCE and the return of some Jewish exiles to Judah in 537 BCE. Yet there is no proof of this speculation, and one will find only speculation in Watch Tower publications. Further, the available evidence is that the Jews returned to Judah in 538 BCE, thus wiping out Watch Tower chronology in one fell swoop.
The claim that the prophet Jeremiah predicted exactly 70 years of desolation of Judah is demonstrably false, using the Bible alone. What Jeremiah predicted was 70 years of Babylonian hegemony over the Near East. Desolation of Judah was to occur only if the Jews refused to bow to Babylonian rule.
Much more could be said, but for now I'll leave it at that.
AlanF

I like it that the application of Bible principles is always a qualification of authorship in the WT publications or at jw.org. Thus, some brilliant scholar in the world might write in a guest article on nearly any outlet, but it would not happen on jw.org. You have to apply Christian principles in order to have a voice. They would never take a guest post from Top Cat O'Malighan.
Doubtless they miss out on some scholarship that way, but they also safeguard themselves from much error, as it is not uncommon for yesterday's scholarship to be today's trash. I like it when @Arauna mentions motive. It is often the most relevant factor, though persons with ill-motive will dismiss it as ad hominem attack.
Of course, one cannot expect Wt standards to prevail here. It has never been claimed that they do. Nor do I imply that whoever takes the 'right' or 'wrong' side on any discussion is or is not applying Christianity. There is no way to tell. But on jw.org, they always are. It lends that source a huge measure of confidence, granted that their ship may not always turn on a dime. It takes a while to establish that something really is something and not just the tossing of rubbish on the waves and the trickery of men.
On this forum, many can and do tell the GB what to do. This is the internet and people can do what they want. But such correction by the people, though popular today,  is not the Bible pattern. When David truly was being a scoundrel, it was not the people who called him on it, but an already established prophetic channel. 
 
 
 

Every spoken word has a motive - for a result.... and a withheld word also has motive...... if one withholds a titbit of truth - one can deceive.....
So it is interesting to see how people use their information....

This is where Freedom and sanity, and peace come from .... when you disregard people who have proved they have no credibility whatsoever ... and STOP BEING AFRAID OF DYING. 
Every living thing that has DNA dies ... and there have never been any exceptions... not one... from a mosquito to  a Brontosaurus ... and we did not exist at all for about 14 BILLION years ... and my guess is no one worried about it.
We should serve Jehovah because it is the right thing to do .... not because someone is generating artificial panics to get the troops to march faster.

Every spoken word has a motive - for a result.... and a withheld word also has motive...... if one withholds a titbit of truth - one can deceive.....
So it is interesting to see how people use their information....