Arauna

Ann
I have made clear my position so the ball is in your court.
scholar JW

Apparently I have seen it, as he has lured you into pounding the daylights out of your own machine and stranding yourself.

Ann
It is all very simple. Carl Jonsson in his early editions of his GTR, 1983/86  p. 21 stated that John Aquila Brown "He did not associate this period with the Gentile Times of Luke 21:24". Jonsson provided no support for this opinion and in his later editions, 3rd in 1998 and the 4th edn. in 2004 he stated: "Further, despite the Society's italicized statement, Brown did not connect the 2520 years with the Gentile  Times of Luke 21:24".
So, I would have thought with this history of matters the onus of proof lies not with the Society because they had simply made a correct observation based on a careful reading of Brown's entire work and possibly in refutation of Jonsson's original claim but with Jonsson himself to 'set matters straight'. In view of this, you can either write to Bethel for the specific page as I had done or you can write to Jonsson for a copy.
The very fact that you have sat on your hands for the last two decades and not satisfied yourself as to the integrity of the matter is quite telling thus it is left to others on this forum to make a judgement about your own motivation and bias.
scholar JW
 
 

apologies in advance that a few keys on my keyboard are not working, including the shift and caps lock along with a few key letters. workarounds take a long time, so although i will repair a few of the problems created, some of this post might be hard to read.
 
Neil Mc Fadzen has self-identified as 'scholar' on another forum and as @scholar JW here. what he is saying above is that he might be only one of two brothers in the entire world who have demonstrated competence in chronology. you admit that you have not followed the thread that closely, but perhaps you might wish to follow it more closely on this basis alone. you are evidently privileged to be in the presence of a very rare level of competence.
since this topic has veered from its original course, and it was started by me, i'm happy to create a new version of it that deals only with the more serious issues about watchtower chronology vs. bible chronology vs. secular chronology. evidently i still have the ability to move posts from one thread to another, to keep topics organised. if i still have some of these moderator functions available to me, i can always move irrelevant and irreverent posts back over to this thread.
if i do decide to start a new thread, i will probably not be moving any posts from here, but will likely try to summarise by quoting from posts made here. this might have to wait until i add a wireless keyboard to this laptop, or perhaps i'll start using my Macbook more often, which slows down my typing by about 50wpm until i get used to it. that would likely cut down the length of my posts by more than 50 percent --and who wants that?

We are talking about lack of scientific evidence for these dates  and how most of the humanities sciences are not worth much any more. Here is another example: 
Sciences for Middle Eastern studies and those sitting on the UNESCOs UN committee have already issued a ruling which stipulates that Israel has NO history in Jerusalem.!  How historically correct is that? Can one call this science? ..... When there is ample proof that Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70 CE ?
So I would say it is relevant to the topic..... unless you have tunnel vision and cannot relate to anything else which puts more light on the subject by widening it out.  If you put your trust in these departments and their professors - you are going to be misled!  
 
 

This is dangerous thinking because there are too many signs on the ground now which started in 1914 and is culminating into a very dangerous world-wide situation - it is putting the future of mankind's very EXISTENCE in jeopardy.  These issues will definitely all be coming to a crisis within the next few years - quicker than expected.
Those saying : where is the end?   It is panting to its 'disastrous apex' and most people are not giving attention or think they have ample time - just as the scriptures warned us. All aspects of our 'survival as a species' will come to head quite soon. 
I made sure for myself years ago that I accept 1914 and acknowledge completely that I now tend to look more at world events for the signs on ground zero - all the politics and trends happening in the world right now regarding ecology, deforestation, water pollution, weapon arsenals, and philosophy - to name only a few facets.   It helps me in the field because most people accept 1914 and the invisible rule (rev 12: 6 onwards) when they can see what has been happening since 1914 in real life. Even atheists evaluate their stance on the world when one can logically present what is going on and ask the question: how 'science' will solve this.....
I have been criticized for being here on this forum and not offering academic contributions.... However, I do have an interest to follow the newest contributions from other contributors to see if there is anything new that I had not thought about before when I looked into it years ago. 
I do sometimes make comments to add some interesting tidbit, when I see that someone is unreasonable, or when someone has sneaked in some other 'related subject'  which is not in line with bible thought - which comes from the idea that they do not accept 607 - 1914. 
When they do not accept 1914 they tend to deviate into all other kinds of theories which are not based on accurate thinking from the scriptures .... such as the idea that the 144000 will be living in flesh amongst us after Armageddon......and Christ will have to appear in flesh so the world will know what is going on.  (The Muslims have a place where they say the Mahdi will come and I often wonder if they will have world-television there so everyone will see him - fleshly reasoning not based on truth)
It is nice to follow the academic discussion - but again - it only benefits those here and those who have the stamina to quickly read through it when they come home from daily activities and offer a comment. 
The slave have done their homework and do not set out to cover up or deceive as some on this forum imply - the Amaharets are better off tending to their children and get on with the business of family worship and field service. Academic arguments is not going to bring more people closer to Jehovah. And since this is supposed to be a religious forum and not an academic forum at a university - I can make this statement. 

When people start to develop egos and leave the truth one cannot trust them any more.  TRUST is an important aspect in all facets of life - even in business when working with opposition companies or negotiating.  I have worked in business in America and believe me TRUST is the most important thing - if your work involves working with opposition companies.
If I am working with a person in a team and they are always criticizing management severely and they are only looking out for themselves - ego - it breaks team morale.  We are social animals after all - Jehovah created us this way - that we need to trust each other. 
When someone has left the truth and they are pursuing a scholarly career then ego and politics at the university enters into it.  At present I would NOT like to be working at any  university - have you noticed what is going on?   Would I completely trust such a person and their integrity to just go after truth?  Or is it more important to them to get noticed and pose a new theory? 
 

Ann
You have known about this matter for many years as I had a lengthy discussion about this on the JWD forum and yet during all that time you never bothered to obtain that particular page so I am wondering Why this is so?
Anna like any Witness can write to Bethel for a copy of the page or obtain a copy through an appropriate library in the country in which she lives. However,t is always preferable to read the entire book in order to get a complete picture and this where COJ got unstuck for he simply confined his reading to selected portions of the book and made a serious historical blunder.
scholar JW

My experience exactly in the few years that I have come back to this forum - she is always ready for a fight - and does not care for real scholarship - even if she professes it. 
A person's search for truth also involves a reasonableness to look at all aspects of a subject. Even if good arguments are given - she does not consider it and goes back to her old arguments.    

Hmmmm......I beg to differ. How about we both ask a number of friends a simple question at the KH this Sunday or in a field service group: "do you know how to explain why we believe 1914 and 607?"
In any case, it looks like you are trying to evade the question by implying that understanding how we come to 1914 (and 607) requires too much time and that one has better things to do (which actually confirms what I said, that most don't really know) and also you are detracting from the question by implying that those who do this, are really just trying to discredit the Slave and score points for themselves on a discussion forum.
I can't say anything about what was said under another heading, but I do know that the question that arose a number of times was if WT accepts 537, then why does it not accept 587, if both dates are verifiable by the same astronomical/historical l sources.
I am not here to score points either, (and if anyone is, well then they are to be pitied because what real value does collecting points from complete strangers who have no impact on your real, outside the internet, life have?). I am not trying to prove the Slave are deceivers,  but how would you explain to someone what I posted earlier but you never commented on. It was in answer to your comment:  " Faith is important - but Jehovah knew that us simple folks - we always need small steps to look forward to and he lovingly gave it to us.... and what is more.. the proof of the pudding is the eating....... world events since 1914 has proven that it is a 'reality'...... We will soon be seeing the last prophecies regarding Babylon the great, the call to peace and security...and the 8th king in action.... as a matter of fact - religions seem to be riding the beast as we speak...."  And my reply was:
"BUT that does not mean the dates and numbers and lengths of periods we simple folks put together are always correct are they? What has happened to the millions that were not supposed to die? (they did). What has happened to the generation that was not supposed to pass away? (they have, practically) What has happened to the children that were not supposed to even finish school in this system? (they did, and they have children of their own). What has happened to the world that can't get any worse? (it did, and still might)".
Religions seem to be riding the beast as we speak, but there have been many signs before that, that actually turned out NOT to be the sign
To be fair, this topic here "607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported" really does call for secular,/scholarly knowledge because it is an academic subject.  No matter how noble feelings are, they still have no impact on whether something is true or false. And I cannot somehow connect a date with love for Jehovah, especially if there is a possibility that the date could be completely erroneous.
I think those people have been paying attention to the signs on the ground. Probably since they first learned about them.
Indeed, the Amaharets.  And it is a consolation to me that even if we are totally wrong about Christ's enthronement in 1914 and it takes another 2000 years for Armageddon to come, surely Jehovah will look upon us that we, the Amaharets, did our best to follow in the footsteps of Christ, by preaching the Kingdom and by living our life in harmony with God's moral standards. Surely Jehovah will recognize that the majority of Christ's sheep are unable to verify or understand everything the Bible, or what the Slave presents, like the Beoreans were able to. I can't imagine a missionary in Peru being overly concerned about Neo Babylonian chronology. Surely it is sufficient that these ones have verified the fundamental truths. And those who desire and are able to delve deeper into the academic side of this particular issue, and in all honesty find discrepancies with 607, surely they will not be disqualified? Thankfully, Jehovah is the reader of hearts. However, if those who have taken upon themselves the responsibility to disseminate spiritual food to the Amaharets, and they feed falsehood, they will be judged severely, for obvious reasons. So really, we have nothing to be worried about. For the Amaharets and those "academics/scholars" who are pure in heart and motive it's a win win situation isn’t it?


 

Anna
The simple answer is that 539 and 537 BCE are not controversial as there is no contradictory evidence against these two dates whereas 587 is very controversial within scholarship for the following reasons:
1. Does not account for the biblical 'seventy years' creating a gap of 20 years in the NB Period
2. Rolf Furuli's research based on VAT 4956 that the Fall of Jerusalem can be adjusted to 607 and not 586/7BCE
3. Scholars cannot precisely determine whether Jerusalem fell in 587 or 586 BCE
4. WT scholars as with all other Chronologists use different Methodologies in order to construct a scheme of Chronology so that means that WT scholars looking at all of the available evidence can exercise academic discretion exercising priority/interpretation to the data.
5. I stand corrected but it is  my opinion that it was Christine Tetley, a NZ scholar who did her Ph.D on the Divided Monarchy or as she terms it the Divided Kingdom-DK, made good use of Methodology in her thesis perhaps the first scholar to introduce such a term into Chronology. I had introduced the term before her or about the same time on a online forum soon after Rodger Young used the term as well. Tetley's thesis is titled The Reconstructed Chronology of the Divided Kingdom, 2005, Eisenbraums.
So in very simple terms the answer in one good word essential in all academic work: METHODOLOGY
scholar JW

Allan and all:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Velikovsky
Emmanuel Velikovsky became known in 1950 and after him there were many authors who revised the Egyptian timeline and other Middle eastern timelines...  Read his history under the link above.   Since then there have been many good scholars who reject the timelines of all middle east and Egyptian chronology. ..... but they are outcasts amongst the rest of the fraternity. 

This to me sounds like a bunch of people who want to see themselves as a special class of teachers...... and walk around amongst the earthly Amaharets as privileged heavenly ones.....like the fathers of the Nephilim of old.... same wish for more than their allotted attention.  
Jehovah's people are already being taught at our meetings ...  and Jehovah may use this same system in the new system.   An army of people are being added to the earthly domain of Jehovah's future government every day and are being taught individually by those who primarily have the promise of living for ever on EARTH as future subjects. No special anointed with special insight needed for this!!
Again - look what is happening on the ground....in reality - not fantasy...
Today - we are being prepared as future citizens - totally neutral and being taught to love one another and care for each other and to obey Jehovah. We are all taught the 'principles' of Jehovah and each individual knows what is expected from him. The problem is that we all  are living in a secular world and have to cope with secular problems all the time.  Many come from bad backgrounds and need time to unlearn some bad personal habits - but overall they do not become gross sinners and try not to be hurtful human beings or have hurtful practices towards others. (We all will be happy when the influence of satan and his demons are removed.)
There are a few renegades and they are set outside the congregation until they accept that they have sinned against Jehovah and hurt their fellows and try to change and cooperate with the teachings of Jehovah and the elders (Elders are a scriptural instruction - no need to give proof from the bible). 
Under Jehovah's government now we do not have police to keep everyone in check. Everyone is expected to obey from free will supported by the education they received individually and in the congregation. Those who overstep the lines (invisible barriers where one can harm another or self or disrespect Jehovah) are spoken with, but if their rebellion is serious - they need to face the consequences. 
All governments have police - we do not because we have already been EDUCATED SPIRITUALLY and as individuals we have all the materials needed to educate ourselves further.  In the new system - when the new scrolls open up, all will be educated in the same way - and all will be expected to obey by their own volition/free will. (no supervisors needed or special individual teachers).  Jehovah's government will deal directly with those who are a threat to others. 
After the 1000 years - the anointed and Jesus will no longer be in their positions as kings and priests. They will get new jobs. How will people on earth live?  Will they need police or supervisors?  NO.  They will experience total freedom like Adam had and live by their educated consciences - and their direct communication with Jehovah will be restored. In the 1000 years there will be a continuation of what is happening NOW - a continuation of the spiritual education (without satan around to cause problems) so that everyone can reach perfection.  All the needed provisions (spiritual food from the new scrolls will be provided/facilitated).... as Revelation indicates. Jehovah's spirit will be in abundance! And we will be free to communicate with him without the worldly pressures and agendas that crowd our lives now.
If one understands the Hebrew word for rule (as in Arabic)  - it is NOT the secular oppressive rule that we have seen in the worldly system past and present ......... it is closely related to the word "to give justice"... to judge (judge does not have the connection to punish - but to give justice).  Any creature who likes to control others is like satan.
All the resurrected ones on earth who have suffered will receive compensation and justice in this 1000 years.  All the lowly and those oppressed - who before were slaves... they will receive the benefits of total freedom with personal responsibility...  living in peace and harmony with others and NOT being dominated by any one else on anyone telling you what to do.  Obedience to Jehovah is ALWAYS a matter of conscious choice!  If everyone obeyed by conscious choice there would be no problems on earth at all.  If everyone cooperated willingly to instructions (without it being a law) we will have harmony and equity- (each person being appreciated for who they are). 
Those who decide at the final test as perfect people that they do not want to live under this government - will face consequences for their choices. If they choose like Adam - they will face the consequence of Adam.... however the number of people is undetermined now. 
So elders in the new world will NOT tell people what to do - they will be facilitators/serve.  The anointed ( 1kor 15) will have heavenly bodies with immortality. It is unnatural for heavenly bodies to materialize - only on special occasions did Jehovah instruct his angels to materialize and it was with at special occasions when his "purpose" was being directed. 
Romans 9:4 speaks of "sacred service" of the anointed.  Primarily they are the 'new heavens' spoken of..... with heavenly bodies . Their priestly duties will most probably be to facilitate the provisions and instructions for the forgiveness of sins.... If they do materialize it will be for a specific purpose because they are 'adopted sons' - like the other angels and they are a new creation with a new name (new heavenly position and function).  We do not see the angels amongst us do we?  Yet we know they are there and they are assisting the preaching and teaching work....
To give up their heavenly bodies will be to give up their separateness as a priestly nation - a special possession - set aside for Jehovah.   Their new jobs are not completely defined in the bible.  All we know is that their work will be rewarding and important....1Peter 2 they will offer up spiritual sacrifices through Christ. Hebrews 8:5 indicates the priesthood of Moses to be a "shadow" of the sacred service in 'heaven' - heavenly things.
They will facilitate/oversee the teaching of the word of Jehovah... and the important function of judging and seeing that righteous 'decisions' are made and Jehovah's righteous law is enforced throughout the earth - almost like the boardroom in a company. Jehovah's spirit will be in full operation so he will facilitate communication between heaven and earth as he has done in the past. Many resurrected ones may have problems adapting etc.... so the 144000 will have an important job to facilitate justice and mercy.  They have enough experience as imperfect people.
The anointed may be visible during Armageddon but this cannot be taught as a fact. We know that angels destroyed 185,000 troops of Sennacherib and he himself thought it was pestilence - no-one saw the angels (Israel ot the Assyrians did not) but they saw the results!  The bible does also speak of natural signs.... so people will not be in the dark as to who is bringing the destruction especially after they start to attack Jehovah's people in the entire globe!
Moses was a priest - he called to Jehovah and interceded for israel - their intercessionary work will also be the facilitation of justice and mercy.  Moses heard many cases until it was given to 70 elders.   
The elders are an institution - given in the bible - they are shepherds and facilitators for the congregations... servants... of others. They are now being trained (and will still need a lot of training like all the others) if they are to be used in futue.  The higher you want to be in Jehovah's organization the humbler one should become..... this is what the bible teaches... no need to quote all the scriptures.

Thank you, I can see that; but also it is good to keep in mind that John mentioned in his previous book,
“Children, it is the last hour. And as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. By this we know that it is the last hour.  They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.  1 John 2:18,19
I believe it is possible that those who left were anointed ones, since he speaks to the anointed in the next verse.  1 John 2:20  These are the “false christs” and false prophets that Jesus warned would deceive, and “by their fruits” we would know them.  Matt 24:24; Matt 7:17-19
Teaching that the 144,000 have strictly a “heavenly hope”, and that Jesus would not return to the earth is a great apostasy. The GB is responsible for fostering this lie.  The true meaning of the “new creation” is lost; that of Christ, as well as the priesthood, walking and teaching among all of God’s children in human form on the earth, as well as serving the Father and Christ in heaven as spirit creatures.    Not only are the anointed deprived of truth about themselves, but so are the entire 8 million, and those who have died over the years.  I remember a friend lamenting that she would miss her anointed husband once in the Kingdom, understanding she would never see him again.  The “heavenly” vs. “earthly” class system have left many with a resentful feeling toward anointed ones; especially those leaving the organization. The anointed, as “firstfruits” inherit the earth and share this inheritance with the rest of mankind –the “Bride’s” spiritual children.  Gal 3:29; Rev 21:2; John 1:51; Zech 8:23; Rom 2:28,28; Luke 10:16; John 13:20
How the Wt. teaches Jesus’ return is only part of the tangled ball of yarn. This affects the New Covenant teaching as well.  By the anointed in charge choosing not to reveal truth about how Christ will be on earth with his Bride/priesthood, shows they are…“anti-Christ”.
 

God and his Son love the Amaharets. They are chosen over the lofty. It is one of the most significant lessons a person can learn from  the Bible 

Anne O Maly
Let us be perfectly clear on this matter. I have to hand a large red manilla folder which contains my correspondence both by mail and email to the WT Society in Brooklyn, Carl Jonsson and Raymond Franz all to do with the italicized statement made in the Proclaimers book. I wrote twice to Bethel seeking clarification of this dispute, the first letter, ECE:ECP April 13, 1998 which gave me the source for the quotation and the second letter , ECM:ECH March 11, 1999 came with 2 photocopied pages, p, 135 and 208 from Brown's book along with a photocopy of the title page showing the vol. number and date of publication; vol.2, 1823. It was noted that the connection is found on page 208 wherein the connection is clearly and easily identified. This page contains 2 paragraphs in portion, the first par. mentions the 'seven times' of Daniel and the very next par. contains the quotation of Luke 21:24 so a connection between the two is plain. 
Previously, I had received from COJ copies of some pages from Brown's book which purported to show the Society's error but these revealed no such thing and that is why I wrote to Bethel. The letter from COJ is dated Jan. 12,1998. Subsequent emails from COJ on this matter showed COJ trying to defend his position quibbling over the nature of the connection but this too was foolishness and I was left wondering about COJ's level of comprehension.
Further, I had written to both James Penton and Raymond Franz about the matter because they were part of the group of editors who wrote the Foreword to the Gentile Times Reconsidered, first published in 1983. Penton did not reply but Franz did and he simply referred the matter to COJ for comment. Franz had in fact supported the Society's position as shown in his Crisis Of Conscience, 1994, 2nd edn.p.367 yet he in a email dated September 24, 2003 he chastised me and the Society for sloppy research and failing to properly understand Brown's description of the prophetic periods.
In short, whatever the nature of the connection it is left up to the reader to decide its relationship and I believe that COJ made a serious error in accusing the Society in such a dogmatic way for plainly on that same page 208 .a connection of sorts is plainly evident.
scholar JW

times and a half" or 1260 (lunar or 'Mohammedan') years with Luke 21's Gentile times (p. vii, xi, etc.).   Well - the Bible also used lunar years,  so why call it Mohammedan?  All the planting in Israel was done according to the Lunar calendar and they watched the moon to see when the festivals should be.  It was their way of counting time just as the nations around them did.  The only difference was - they were not allowed to blow kisses at the moon or worship the moon like the pagans around them did.

He is exactly right.
 
Somewhat. It is because he knows the overall world is not Winnie-the-Pooh friendly toward Christian values. What is it with those who would disparage such counsel? They are exactly out of harmony with Scripture, in that they present the world as though it was.
I have the greatest respect for him, because he says what needs to be said, despite knowing that villains will beat him over the head with his own words and JTR will photoshop tight pants on him.
His counsel is exactly what public safety people will tell the public - hang up on the scammers. Don't think you can outsmart them. They do it 24/7 and you do it 10 minutes a month.
Don't be cocky thinking you will outwit the loudmouth car dealer & beat him at his own game. It is possible, but not likely, for the same reason.
This is not aimed at me, but I rationalize away nothing. It is counsel, not law. Also, I have plainly said I am being a bad boy in this regard. In all other significant areas, I would hope I can say I am exemplary. But not this one, and I do fret about setting a bad example for others. I do it for reasons not necessarily spiritual. Sometimes I just like to brawl. Even when I think I have "won" I have demonstrated an un-Christian trait. Even if I display clever argumentation, I distract from Scriptures that says it is primarily heart that counts. Charles Russell say 'if you stop to kick every dog that barks, you will not get very far.' Sometimes I like to kick them. And no, I haven't gotten very far.
Rightly or wrongly, to me, this forum is where spiritual themes play out and where hearts manifest themselves. This is where it can be seen "they went out from us, because they were not of our sort." "Sorts" can be seen here. Like the person who gags at the mention of "the greater good" when it is exactly pursuit of the greater good that is integral to Christianity as shown in Scripture. Like the person who argues doctrine or prophesy till the cows come home but never once gives indication whether they actually apply Christ-like traits in their own life. Like the person who wears like a badge of honor the #1 apostate trait Peter identifies: a contempt for authority.
Ann is routinely cutting in her remarks. "I am amazed (but maybe I should not be)" she hurls at someone who has resisted her instruction on another thread. She so plainly views herself as one of the intelligentsia with her patience being sorely tried as she talks down to the dumbbells. There is a time and place to say "sometimes people disagree - I can live with that."
Witness has revealed beyond all doubt her craving for audience and authority. @Arauna has nailed it pretty well.
Srecko has chosen to represent himself here as a moron, with his inane giggle hehehe preceding each imagined coup de grace, and his absurdly smilelys at the end. :)))) It reveals someone extremely clever in his own eyes as he taunt those he thinks he outwits.
These characters will scream about ad hominem attacks. Within reason, there is nothing wrong with ad homenem attacks, though I can see why they would not want any leveled at them. Jesus said a Christian should be a living example of Christianity, therefore an ad hominem attack should find little to latch onto. If it does, it is an indication that one is lacking in spiritual qualities and therefore possibly not the one you want to hitch your wagon to.
An internet forum is a battle of the wits and the Bible says it is the heart that matters. No wonder Anthony Morris is not enthused with it.

Assyrian chronology was synchronized with Egyptian chronology and those 20 years are hard to find because of this. The father you go back in time -  the gap becomes more than 300 years.  To meticulously count and use Bible chronology here is better than any secular sources....the secular sources are not reliable.
 
This is the best SECULAR date to SYNCRONIZE with a Biblical date....and work your dates back from this point.....  And what is more this date is accepted by all biblical and secular scholars as accurate. Greek and Babylonian sources can be used to come to the same conclusion -  without a doubt. If you are a meticulous scholar you will choose the best date that can be corroborated from various sources and work back from there
This is where the bigger picture (overall consistency of the promises of Jehovah) comes in - to understand the entire administration of Jehovah throughout the ages and how he has given timelines to prove periodically to those people which he is using at the time (for his purpose) that his "restoration project' for the earth is still on track and on time and moving ahead to its full completion.
This proves the accuracy of the entire bible and its "reality" so one knows this is the absolute truth - not just a blind faith - because the evidence is there that everything is happening on time in its outcome is reliable. It gives your faith vigor to know exactly where you are in time.
Prophesy a few hundred years ahead of time on many occasions carried the nation that Jehovah was using to go forward and wait for fulfilmment and "see the hand" of Jehovah! 
How many worldly people do this?  When people learn the truth from JWs they are impressed by the logic they have never seen before in the explanation of Jehovah's purpose and the many things they learn about the mortality of the soul, the last days and where we are in the time line - and it all fits into a logical picture.  This carries them for a long time and often is sufficient until death. No fault in that.....       To be a good debater is not important but to understand the truth and obey Jehovah.
No extra points to us older folks who start scratching under the surface.....  I just did this years ago because I had a need...... and the time line and the "overall" consistency of definite time points being met by Jehovah exactly as predicted (70 weeks prophecy - the world empires and 1914 ) also contributed to me seeing the entire Bible as the only "reality" there is.....  so I am glad I did the exercise.  I often use this when talking to atheists! ... to prove the bible is the only source of reality. I use it together with things happening on the ground.
I always ask:  why am I doing this?  or this other person doing this?  This is why I ask the questions here on this forum when I see scriptures being misapplied or so much credence given to secular material (that is not proven to be infallible) and this held up to discredit the dates given by the slave and therefore the entire "administration" of Jehovah throughout the ages being called into question.  
It indicates a lack of understanding of the overall bigger picture....  and it seems to be a process where people are bogged down in one small area of detail only to be failing to see the wonder and miracle of a larger overall "reality".     Failing to understand 1914 really water's the truth down somewhat and allows one to automatically reject many of the scriptures that are available to show where we are in the stream of time such the dream of Nebuchadnezzar relating to the gentile times.
Faith is important - but Jehovah knew that us simple folks - we always need small steps to look forward to and he lovingly gave it to us.... and what is more.... the proof of the pudding is the eating....... world events since 1914 has proven that it is a 'reality'...... We will soon be seeing the last prophecies regarding Babylon the great, the call to peace and security...and the 8th king in action.... as a matter of fact - religions seem to be riding the beast as we speak..... 
 
 

Assyrian chronology was synchronized with Egyptian chronology and those 20 years are hard to find because of this. The father you go back in time -  the gap becomes more than 300 years.  To meticulously count and use Bible chronology here is better than any secular sources....the secular sources are not reliable.
 
This is the best SECULAR date to SYNCRONIZE with a Biblical date....and work your dates back from this point.....  And what is more this date is accepted by all biblical and secular scholars as accurate. Greek and Babylonian sources can be used to come to the same conclusion -  without a doubt. If you are a meticulous scholar you will choose the best date that can be corroborated from various sources and work back from there
This is where the bigger picture (overall consistency of the promises of Jehovah) comes in - to understand the entire administration of Jehovah throughout the ages and how he has given timelines to prove periodically to those people which he is using at the time (for his purpose) that his "restoration project' for the earth is still on track and on time and moving ahead to its full completion.
This proves the accuracy of the entire bible and its "reality" so one knows this is the absolute truth - not just a blind faith - because the evidence is there that everything is happening on time in its outcome is reliable. It gives your faith vigor to know exactly where you are in time.
Prophesy a few hundred years ahead of time on many occasions carried the nation that Jehovah was using to go forward and wait for fulfilmment and "see the hand" of Jehovah! 
How many worldly people do this?  When people learn the truth from JWs they are impressed by the logic they have never seen before in the explanation of Jehovah's purpose and the many things they learn about the mortality of the soul, the last days and where we are in the time line - and it all fits into a logical picture.  This carries them for a long time and often is sufficient until death. No fault in that.....       To be a good debater is not important but to understand the truth and obey Jehovah.
No extra points to us older folks who start scratching under the surface.....  I just did this years ago because I had a need...... and the time line and the "overall" consistency of definite time points being met by Jehovah exactly as predicted (70 weeks prophecy - the world empires and 1914 ) also contributed to me seeing the entire Bible as the only "reality" there is.....  so I am glad I did the exercise.  I often use this when talking to atheists! ... to prove the bible is the only source of reality. I use it together with things happening on the ground.
I always ask:  why am I doing this?  or this other person doing this?  This is why I ask the questions here on this forum when I see scriptures being misapplied or so much credence given to secular material (that is not proven to be infallible) and this held up to discredit the dates given by the slave and therefore the entire "administration" of Jehovah throughout the ages being called into question.  
It indicates a lack of understanding of the overall bigger picture....  and it seems to be a process where people are bogged down in one small area of detail only to be failing to see the wonder and miracle of a larger overall "reality".     Failing to understand 1914 really water's the truth down somewhat and allows one to automatically reject many of the scriptures that are available to show where we are in the stream of time such the dream of Nebuchadnezzar relating to the gentile times.
Faith is important - but Jehovah knew that us simple folks - we always need small steps to look forward to and he lovingly gave it to us.... and what is more.... the proof of the pudding is the eating....... world events since 1914 has proven that it is a 'reality'...... We will soon be seeing the last prophecies regarding Babylon the great, the call to peace and security...and the 8th king in action.... as a matter of fact - religions seem to be riding the beast as we speak..... 
 
 

This is not about the "earthly Jerusalem"  it was about an establishment of the kingdom in 'heaven' - which was an earthly kingdom before in the time of Israel - when Sedekia was the last king.
This is the kind of reasoning that mixes up the earthly Jerusalem (which was destroyed for a second time in 70CE ) - with the establishment of the "heavenly" kingdom.   When you come up against this type of reasoning (which is illogical) - what is there to say..... I just rest my case. 
And these people will be adamant that there is no proof for 607 and will quote all the defective sources to prove their case.  It reminds me of the Christians of this world who  believe that Israel has a major place in the outworking of God's purpose in future just because fleshly israel we re-established in 1948. 
Any case - referring to Russel - again and again - when this group of people were the  (Elijah) who prepared the way for the slave in 1914 - as brought out in our new publication....  we have surely had much more light since then.......  as signs since 1914 has proved.
Any case - please answer:  When is the fulfillment of  Revelation 12: 7-13. No long answer needed ..... just give short answer - please. 
 
 

Speaking to you is like speaking to a Muslim...... no proper chronology - and scriptures applied to elevate your own form of belief ...... and of course the constant OCD 'accusations'.    
You expect me to believe that an isolated person sitting in a room somewhere and touting tons of scriptures out of context (too many to address here and waste my time ) is the true light from God......
If you are part of a group of so-called enlightened ones (the truly 'clean' people of god as you are presenting yourself) - like you, they must be scattered on the earth in isolated locations - Question: how can they accomplish the preaching work which will be done in an organized way to ALL the earth before the end comes? Jehovah is a god of order not disorder....      
I have asked this kind of question before and you do not answer me: where is the nation or the great crowd you have helped to produce.....  I see you are not answering any of these kind of questions but instead you start quoting scriptures to try and indicate how corrupt and domineering the slave is.  
There is no logic in what you put forward....   and Jehovah is very logical.    The muslims believe that Jesus is going to come back in the flesh to fight the war with the Jews and then he is going to die..... no reason given for the future death   (he did not die before because God miraculously saved him).... just like that- no reasons given why Jesus did not die before and will have to come and die in future - no proper chronology that fit into each other  - and one is expected to accept it because he is Allah (no logic).  
Jehovah is not illogical.  Your chronology has NO logic..... it does not fit.... and half the prophecies can be thrown out with the way you present the dates. (Your way of thinking is to set yourself as a highly enlightened isolated member of the 144,000 who has been trod on by the rest of your brothers.....and your special insight has not been accepted) 
Chronology is important and also the reasons why Jehovah did every action (nothing was without an extremely good reason) - especially when dealing with Muslims one has to bring out the logic of each action of Jehovah.  Why does Jehovah have a nation on earth today who is being trained as future subjects - and who is training them?  isolated individuals?
You are living in a bubble because the information you give is as inconsistent as the teachings in the Qur'an - it has all the hallmarks of someone who is using existing scriptures to promote their own trajectory - just like Mohammad - who used the Talmud and gospels to project his own version of the true reality.
 

Short answer .....
 

JW Insider
Post 1786
There is much in what you say that I believe to be utter nonsense. Your views on how the FDS treats 607 BCE and its importance generally are eccentric, to say the least. WT Chronology has been consistent with its value not only in Bible Chronology but also in terms of its significance to Bible Prophecy and Theology.for after all, it introduced the 'Gentile Times'.
The evidence for 607 BCE for the destruction of Jerusalem and the beginning of the Exile is well established not only from the biblical perspective and its chronological data but also from NB Chronology with a little 'fine tuning'because of a shortfall or 'Gap' of twenty years. There have over many decades attempts made by our critics, some have become apostates to discredit our wondrous Chronology for such attempts began in the early sixties culminating in COJ's Gentile Times Reconsidered first published in 1983. I have examined all of these materials over the years and found these to be wanting, failing to properly recognize the 'seventy years of Jeremiah as a definite historic period of desolation of Judah, exile in/for Babylon and servitude to Babylon.
Further, our Chronology is suitably anchored to the well established pivotal date 539 BCE for the Fall of Babylon thus giving this scheme much scholarly credence whereas most other schemes are based on Absolute Dates that lie outside the NB Period. This Chronology facilitates the counting backwards to Adam in 4026 BCE whereas other schemes fail to address these matters for various reasons with the exception mainly of James Ussher who provided a traditional base for our Chronology.
WT Chronology has the added strength of its simplicity and avoids much of the technical issues of Calendation that prevents many schemes from positing fixed dates for various biblical events, the best example of such confusion is the 587/86 BCE controversy which remains unresolved to this day. Also, there are many different dates assigned to the reigns of the Divided Monarchy which Edwin Thiele devoted much of his scholarship to resolve which again highlights the importance of Methodology. In contrast, our Chronology has a scheme for the Divided Monarchy that is workable and intelligible, first published in 1944 in The Kingdom Is At Hand .
The well-established date 607 BCE secures the modern date 1914 CE as the time of the birth of God's Kingdom which contextualizes the subject eschatologically in harmony with the view of prominent German Theologians in the earlier part of the 20th century who pioneered scholarship about the Kingdom. The date 1914 according to historians is the most celebrated date in our modern history and providentially it marked the end of the Gentile times again a subject on which Christendom's most prominent Clergy fixated on especially with the capture of Jerusalem by Allied forces in 1917 CE.
The 'eschatological hope' of Jehovah's Witnesses is well amplified in Early Christian Historiography especially pertaining to the Lukan writings of Luke and Acts as according to Prof. Gary Trompf who writes much on Retributive Justice discussed throughout the biblical narrative. Such recent studies in Historiography, in my opinion, undergird our interpretation of the Danielic and Lukan descriptions of the 'seven times'-'Gentile Times' beginning in 607 BCE and ending in 1914 CE. In short, our Chronology has no 'dead ends' it is prophetic, build faith, adds life and flesh to biblical history. It alone works whereas all other schemes fail.
scholar JW