Arauna

No, but putting all your time and energy (and long debates) into dates which were synchronized with Egyptian dates (and trusting these dates)  is an empty exercise like running after fluff ...   Trying to prove that these dates are more accurate than those which have given us 1914 - and the purpose of all of this?  To prove that the slave in NOT the slave! ...   
The best of it is: history on the ground is proving this date absolutely correct!  So I do not think these people have 'myopia' I think they are blind or ignorant of modern history! .... 
As I said before - this slave has produced a NATION on earth which has developed such a spirit of goodwill that they are doing the preaching work for FREE.  (To me, this is a miracle if one compares that to what is going on in the world today under secular and religious regimes). They are educating people to follow the principles of Jehovah without police having to patrol the streets.   These people are being prepared as citizens of a new world where no-one will be telling another what to do. Our facilitators on earth will only serve - not rule.  Complete freedom!  Jehovah will remove people who pose a further threat to his purpose during the 1000 years - the judgment day! 
Social studies 101..... Many of the great philosophers of the past were trying to create such an utopia and failed. (French revolution and Russian revolution are 2 examples).  Today JWs are indicating that a nation can live -in a wicked world- and show good intentions (altruism - without wanting anything back)  to other human beings without having a visible government over them.  ALL by free will!
Yes - there are many faults amongst the people (like israel of old - imperfect people do what imperfect people get up to) but have you noticed lately how the elders are constantly reminded not to dominate?  We, as a nation, are taught the principles of love, neutrality etc - so we can survive as a nation (no political or religious divisions) and obey by free will.  They are preparing us to remain NEUTRAL at Armageddon - which will be a crucial test!
There are people on this forum who are not part of this nation but pretend they are!        BUT they are here to get you OUT of this nation and jibe at you for identifying as a JW  and label you as  a ........slave to the 'slave" in what they say....They treat us like ignorant fools as though we are not Bereans (like they think they are) - when it is they who are the stray cats with no good alternative to offer.  Where is their NATION which the  bible speaks of will be under Zion in the time of the end?
 2  In the final part of the days,*The mountain of the house of JehovahWill become firmly established above the top of the mountains,+And it will be raised up above the hills,And to it all the nations will stream.+  3  And many peoples will go and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah,To the house of the God of Jacob.+ He will instruct us about his ways,And we will walk in his paths.”+
They use this forum for the purpose of so-called 'sophisticated' debate. Unfortunately I have seen no sophistication, not even good critical thinking - only a short-sighted pushing of personal ideas and debates on very old dates which were put down in stone in the early 19th century by the first Assyriologists. (not that I do not respect the work these people did at the time - I still have a few of their books in my library)..... BUT to base my everlasting life on the work of these people?  I am more sophisticated than that ...... and I am proud to be part of the nation mentioned in Isaiah above!
 
Not distress - one of my best friends (who was like a child to me) who left the truth and became an apostate had this same OCD symptoms I see in you and the same stubborn myopic view. It hurts me to see you hurting yourself and others around you..... and there is hate behind your words for the slave... calling them the lawless one!   You do not even understand the history of Christianity....  ... and as I said before - the BIG picture is missing from your view (very short-sighted views, accusative and critical).
Where did you learn about the 144000 and the future government?   By yourself or from these same people that you now condemn and think you have more special insight than they.....
yes - sad to say - your hate is shining through.  I think you will be the first to betray the slave and will feel happy when they are destroyed ...... and what is more - you will rejoice when you see them get problems from the governments for their neutrality...... and you will think you are doing God a favour! .... as the scriptures indicate.
Where is your nation (great crowd) that you have produced that will live through Armageddon - if you can prove this to me then I will look more closely at what you have to say..... bring me proof of your new world society that you have produced and where I can associate with them.  I would also like to meet with them so I can do field service as the bible indicates will be done in the "entire world " for FREE in the time of the end (matt 24:14). 
 

We are talking about lack of scientific evidence for these dates  and how most of the humanities sciences are not worth much any more. Here is another example: 
Sciences for Middle Eastern studies and those sitting on the UNESCOs UN committee have already issued a ruling which stipulates that Israel has NO history in Jerusalem.!  How historically correct is that? Can one call this science? ..... When there is ample proof that Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70 CE ?
So I would say it is relevant to the topic..... unless you have tunnel vision and cannot relate to anything else which puts more light on the subject by widening it out.  If you put your trust in these departments and their professors - you are going to be misled!  
 
 

Many true words spoken about science.  This is why the so-called evidence for evolution is such a joke.... and they call it a 'science'.   Many of the assumptions have not been thought through properly.
The universities are in BIG trouble at present.  Many scholars worth their salt are saying so.   Young people are paying mega bucks for generic degrees and have insurmountable debt (that is never forgiven) and they sit with humanities degrees that is not even worth the paper they are written on. 
The Humanities usually carry universities but gender politics and social warriors for women studies and gender (which are not sciences) have taken over all the departments at great institutions.  Most of the middle east departments have been taken over by Islam apologists (most of whom I think have not even read the Quran because their commentaries are sooo silly... and based on unrealistic assumptions (a better word for politically correct lies).  
The world is in trouble because the freedom of speech is oppressed at most schools of higher education at present and many of the humanities students get "triggered"  by anything that is controversial.  By the way, these philosophies are also taught in schools....
Universities have special rooms where 'gender raped' students can receive support for anything said (not done) which may emotionally trigger them to go crazy... and lecturers are losing their jobs for the simplest things.  These departments are run by transgender professors who are now running the show and most of them are  non-binary "gender-fluid".  They do look very gender fluid to me - caricatures! .... and they have NO morals. They are teaching the youth that there is NO right and wrong; the Bible must be thrown in the garbage because patriarchal thinking is the cause of all the problems on earth.!
Canada now has a law which recognizes more than 2 genders and this includes the 57 different genders identified by state departments ......and they say that "biology" has nothing to do with gender.... lol - very scientific!!
People can lose their jobs if they do not recognize the request of a fluid person to be called by one of these transgender pronouns. (doctors, nurses, legal people, teachers etc).  There is a legal battle on at the moment about this because the law organization wants to force every legal person and citizen to accept this.  It is in one state at present but is ready to be introduced everywhere!
These students will get out of university soon ( they are also part of ANTIFA and similar very  militant organizations which remind me of the bolsjeviks in Russia and Robespierre of the French revolution (very dangerous)  - they want all those in power to go - be eliminated - well this is how some of their leaders talk!  They want a revolution ... because anyone with power (mostly men) represent oppression!  If I recall how many people died in the French revolution and the Russian revolution (This was 40 million alone  when one includes the people killed by Stalin). I can see where this is heading if the authorities do not get a grip on it.
We are facing extreme times..... close to the end. Within a few years we can really be facing the  biggest crisis the earth has ever seen because this time round the technology for killing is bigger than ever before and the different revolutionaries are sitting at the heart of almost every country and pulling strings.
Wicked organizations and bad people (with billions) who benefit by chaos are also putting large amounts of money into these revolutionary organizations.  It is  crazy what is going on and the governments cannot contain this wild thinking and actions.
 
 

We are talking about lack of scientific evidence for these dates  and how most of the humanities sciences are not worth much any more. Here is another example: 
Sciences for Middle Eastern studies and those sitting on the UNESCOs UN committee have already issued a ruling which stipulates that Israel has NO history in Jerusalem.!  How historically correct is that? Can one call this science? ..... When there is ample proof that Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70 CE ?
So I would say it is relevant to the topic..... unless you have tunnel vision and cannot relate to anything else which puts more light on the subject by widening it out.  If you put your trust in these departments and their professors - you are going to be misled!  
 
 

Many true words spoken about science.  This is why the so-called evidence for evolution is such a joke.... and they call it a 'science'.   Many of the assumptions have not been thought through properly.
The universities are in BIG trouble at present.  Many scholars worth their salt are saying so.   Young people are paying mega bucks for generic degrees and have insurmountable debt (that is never forgiven) and they sit with humanities degrees that is not even worth the paper they are written on. 
The Humanities usually carry universities but gender politics and social warriors for women studies and gender (which are not sciences) have taken over all the departments at great institutions.  Most of the middle east departments have been taken over by Islam apologists (most of whom I think have not even read the Quran because their commentaries are sooo silly... and based on unrealistic assumptions (a better word for politically correct lies).  
The world is in trouble because the freedom of speech is oppressed at most schools of higher education at present and many of the humanities students get "triggered"  by anything that is controversial.  By the way, these philosophies are also taught in schools....
Universities have special rooms where 'gender raped' students can receive support for anything said (not done) which may emotionally trigger them to go crazy... and lecturers are losing their jobs for the simplest things.  These departments are run by transgender professors who are now running the show and most of them are  non-binary "gender-fluid".  They do look very gender fluid to me - caricatures! .... and they have NO morals. They are teaching the youth that there is NO right and wrong; the Bible must be thrown in the garbage because patriarchal thinking is the cause of all the problems on earth.!
Canada now has a law which recognizes more than 2 genders and this includes the 57 different genders identified by state departments ......and they say that "biology" has nothing to do with gender.... lol - very scientific!!
People can lose their jobs if they do not recognize the request of a fluid person to be called by one of these transgender pronouns. (doctors, nurses, legal people, teachers etc).  There is a legal battle on at the moment about this because the law organization wants to force every legal person and citizen to accept this.  It is in one state at present but is ready to be introduced everywhere!
These students will get out of university soon ( they are also part of ANTIFA and similar very  militant organizations which remind me of the bolsjeviks in Russia and Robespierre of the French revolution (very dangerous)  - they want all those in power to go - be eliminated - well this is how some of their leaders talk!  They want a revolution ... because anyone with power (mostly men) represent oppression!  If I recall how many people died in the French revolution and the Russian revolution (This was 40 million alone  when one includes the people killed by Stalin). I can see where this is heading if the authorities do not get a grip on it.
We are facing extreme times..... close to the end. Within a few years we can really be facing the  biggest crisis the earth has ever seen because this time round the technology for killing is bigger than ever before and the different revolutionaries are sitting at the heart of almost every country and pulling strings.
Wicked organizations and bad people (with billions) who benefit by chaos are also putting large amounts of money into these revolutionary organizations.  It is  crazy what is going on and the governments cannot contain this wild thinking and actions.
 
 

It is mine. I never found them again. They were students and students come and go.

Many true words spoken about science.  This is why the so-called evidence for evolution is such a joke.... and they call it a 'science'.   Many of the assumptions have not been thought through properly.
The universities are in BIG trouble at present.  Many scholars worth their salt are saying so.   Young people are paying mega bucks for generic degrees and have insurmountable debt (that is never forgiven) and they sit with humanities degrees that is not even worth the paper they are written on. 
The Humanities usually carry universities but gender politics and social warriors for women studies and gender (which are not sciences) have taken over all the departments at great institutions.  Most of the middle east departments have been taken over by Islam apologists (most of whom I think have not even read the Quran because their commentaries are sooo silly... and based on unrealistic assumptions (a better word for politically correct lies).  
The world is in trouble because the freedom of speech is oppressed at most schools of higher education at present and many of the humanities students get "triggered"  by anything that is controversial.  By the way, these philosophies are also taught in schools....
Universities have special rooms where 'gender raped' students can receive support for anything said (not done) which may emotionally trigger them to go crazy... and lecturers are losing their jobs for the simplest things.  These departments are run by transgender professors who are now running the show and most of them are  non-binary "gender-fluid".  They do look very gender fluid to me - caricatures! .... and they have NO morals. They are teaching the youth that there is NO right and wrong; the Bible must be thrown in the garbage because patriarchal thinking is the cause of all the problems on earth.!
Canada now has a law which recognizes more than 2 genders and this includes the 57 different genders identified by state departments ......and they say that "biology" has nothing to do with gender.... lol - very scientific!!
People can lose their jobs if they do not recognize the request of a fluid person to be called by one of these transgender pronouns. (doctors, nurses, legal people, teachers etc).  There is a legal battle on at the moment about this because the law organization wants to force every legal person and citizen to accept this.  It is in one state at present but is ready to be introduced everywhere!
These students will get out of university soon ( they are also part of ANTIFA and similar very  militant organizations which remind me of the bolsjeviks in Russia and Robespierre of the French revolution (very dangerous)  - they want all those in power to go - be eliminated - well this is how some of their leaders talk!  They want a revolution ... because anyone with power (mostly men) represent oppression!  If I recall how many people died in the French revolution and the Russian revolution (This was 40 million alone  when one includes the people killed by Stalin). I can see where this is heading if the authorities do not get a grip on it.
We are facing extreme times..... close to the end. Within a few years we can really be facing the  biggest crisis the earth has ever seen because this time round the technology for killing is bigger than ever before and the different revolutionaries are sitting at the heart of almost every country and pulling strings.
Wicked organizations and bad people (with billions) who benefit by chaos are also putting large amounts of money into these revolutionary organizations.  It is  crazy what is going on and the governments cannot contain this wild thinking and actions.
 
 

This is why you do not squabble overmuch about 607 or anything else. 'Facts' are unstable building blocks that can be fashioned into palaces or outhouses. You don't blow 607 off as nothing, but neither do you let it spoil your day. Focus on the facts on the ground.
The dispute will be like the food pyramid that stands for decades and is literally turned upon its head. It will be like the generation avoiding fat because the scientists said so only to find that businesspeople had bought science and sugar is the culprit. It will be even be like the mathematical proof that the sum of all natural numbers is -1/12. Or that black holes violate either relativity or quantum physics.
It is the heart one must work to develop, not the head. For every Bible verse there is about the head, there are ten about the heart. Unfortunately, one of the drawbacks of focusing on the heart is that people cannot argue themselves right! - gutting the underpinnings of many a forum.

He tried to intervene on this forum, too, but he found he couldn't mix it up more than it already was.

I can see you have not been to meetings lately - or you have been sitting there daydreaming of your own wonderful theories regarding proof of your own infallibility regarding the non-existence of  1914.... and how you are going to try to get a following on this website so they can reflect your own perfect spirituality/wisdoms.   
On the other hand, I have been attending meetings and very few of them have been about the date of 1914.  Most have been about applying the scriptures to daily living, meekness and humility. Many have been very interesting in the light of what we can expect during Armageddon..... How to stay neutral and not get involved in this world.
Of course - if you were part of the slave (the ones who you believe like to glorify themselves) -  we would get exciting new food every week (wonderful life-giving MANNA) that would be absolutely mind boggling! So we would never hear a rehash of 1914. 
This to me is so strange because all I see here on this forum is an OCD rehash of the  1914 issue  every time I open up my computer to come to this website .......and NO new interesting thoughts I can really think about.  Is this all this band of renegades can talk about?
So please do not accuse the slave of the very thing which you are doing ALL the time!   Just thinking of ONE thing. Satan was the big rebel and was accusing Christs brothers all the time!  I see the same here with the so-called intellectuals using "innocent intellectual discussion" to pull the slave apart at every opportunity available to them - and using the word of God in the most deceiving way to say so!
Self-sacrificing love means that we should not expect anything from no-one. .. just give of ourselves with no return. Our love should not be "hypocritical".   This is the secret to true happiness.
Most of the people offering their brilliant contrary claims to the slave on this forum and who accuse the slave of making a throne for themselves in the temple of God, (if I read the intent of the scripture quoted correctly), these brilliant historians - openly DENY that Babylonian and Assyrian timelines have been synchronized with the Egyptian timeline - so they do not know themselves where these dates come from!
 I have news for you -the Hittite timelines have also been synchronized with Egyptology. This is why Dr David Rohl (and others) are on a quest to prove the timeline WRONG! And this is the reason he is receiving so much opposition in the Egyptology departments because most of the Middle East histories have been synchronized and the Egyptian timeline because of the wars that went on amongst all these different nations. This would mean that most of the PHDs done in the past 150 years are inaccurate!
So why waste your time on this myopic quest and focus on the bigger picture - the theme of the Bible and how the government which is already ruling - invisibly - according to revelation 12 is fulfilling bible prophecy.  How this heavenly government is ruling from Zion over ONE nation and teaching these people (in the last days) to forge their weapons into agricultural weapons. How they are united in the preaching work which is being accomplished in all the earth - by one organization ONLY.  They are the only ones who knows how this government is going to function..... but I guess you have problems with that too!
This is why we needed many SIGNS - to pin point when the kingdom has started ruling INVISIBLY and we also needed a timeline of the world governments - given in Daniel - to gauge the time.  Timelines of world governments and of Jehovah's government! Daniel 7 also tells how Jesus would come before the ancient of old (in heaven) to receive his Kingdom!
Jehovah provides - but many are too blind to see it..  thanklessness.....to what Jehovah has given us.
I do not 'argue' about genealogies but I do use it to show Muslims that Jesus is the only one with a proven history (genealogy) from Adam until his birth - which makes him the true "messenger" from God.   The ideology Jesus  preached is also the only ideology that can bring peace to the earth....if everyone willingly follows it. (I use this to speak to atheists as well - by comparing it to human philosophies). 
Genealogies and chronology (together with the history of israel as a nation and after this the history of the Christians) is very important to become a mature Christian - to follow the continuity of the outworking of Jehovah's purpose. 
If one knows about project management one will understand how the great "project manager" (Jehovah) has managed his affairs in heaven and on earth (without intervening too much into earthly affairs).  He only intervened when it was absolutely necessary; only when the 'final outcome' of his final purpose would be in jeopardy. He intervened with a flood for instance when his purpose could have been thwarted by Satan and his demons. He also intervened at Babylon with languages - he had very good reasons for doing so. He intervened with a dream when the parents of Jesus fled to Egypt to preserve Jesus's life - also important to preserve his purpose.  
Logic and continuity is very important in the timeline and this is why the prophecies and their fulfillment (relating to the timeline) is important. Ephesians 1:9 talks about how the purpose has been administered throughout the ages. While I will not debate over little silly things in the timeline - I have come to realize that it is highly important to understand that the bible is the ONLY reality on earth - and the only book which provides absolute reality and continuity.... every little thing fits into the predicted patterns ... and a timeline.... to the minutest detail.
This is why I see the bible as the only "reality" on earth..... and this is why I defend the timeline as presented by the slave - because it is logical and fits in with the purpose when one studies it in a logical way.  
I am studying this at present... and it is fascinating.... 

I can see you have not been to meetings lately - or you have been sitting there daydreaming of your own wonderful theories regarding proof of your own infallibility regarding the non-existence of  1914.... and how you are going to try to get a following on this website so they can reflect your own perfect spirituality/wisdoms.   
On the other hand, I have been attending meetings and very few of them have been about the date of 1914.  Most have been about applying the scriptures to daily living, meekness and humility. Many have been very interesting in the light of what we can expect during Armageddon..... How to stay neutral and not get involved in this world.
Of course - if you were part of the slave (the ones who you believe like to glorify themselves) -  we would get exciting new food every week (wonderful life-giving MANNA) that would be absolutely mind boggling! So we would never hear a rehash of 1914. 
This to me is so strange because all I see here on this forum is an OCD rehash of the  1914 issue  every time I open up my computer to come to this website .......and NO new interesting thoughts I can really think about.  Is this all this band of renegades can talk about?
So please do not accuse the slave of the very thing which you are doing ALL the time!   Just thinking of ONE thing. Satan was the big rebel and was accusing Christs brothers all the time!  I see the same here with the so-called intellectuals using "innocent intellectual discussion" to pull the slave apart at every opportunity available to them - and using the word of God in the most deceiving way to say so!
Self-sacrificing love means that we should not expect anything from no-one. .. just give of ourselves with no return. Our love should not be "hypocritical".   This is the secret to true happiness.
Most of the people offering their brilliant contrary claims to the slave on this forum and who accuse the slave of making a throne for themselves in the temple of God, (if I read the intent of the scripture quoted correctly), these brilliant historians - openly DENY that Babylonian and Assyrian timelines have been synchronized with the Egyptian timeline - so they do not know themselves where these dates come from!
 I have news for you -the Hittite timelines have also been synchronized with Egyptology. This is why Dr David Rohl (and others) are on a quest to prove the timeline WRONG! And this is the reason he is receiving so much opposition in the Egyptology departments because most of the Middle East histories have been synchronized and the Egyptian timeline because of the wars that went on amongst all these different nations. This would mean that most of the PHDs done in the past 150 years are inaccurate!
So why waste your time on this myopic quest and focus on the bigger picture - the theme of the Bible and how the government which is already ruling - invisibly - according to revelation 12 is fulfilling bible prophecy.  How this heavenly government is ruling from Zion over ONE nation and teaching these people (in the last days) to forge their weapons into agricultural weapons. How they are united in the preaching work which is being accomplished in all the earth - by one organization ONLY.  They are the only ones who knows how this government is going to function..... but I guess you have problems with that too!
This is why we needed many SIGNS - to pin point when the kingdom has started ruling INVISIBLY and we also needed a timeline of the world governments - given in Daniel - to gauge the time.  Timelines of world governments and of Jehovah's government! Daniel 7 also tells how Jesus would come before the ancient of old (in heaven) to receive his Kingdom!
Jehovah provides - but many are too blind to see it..  thanklessness.....to what Jehovah has given us.
I do not 'argue' about genealogies but I do use it to show Muslims that Jesus is the only one with a proven history (genealogy) from Adam until his birth - which makes him the true "messenger" from God.   The ideology Jesus  preached is also the only ideology that can bring peace to the earth....if everyone willingly follows it. (I use this to speak to atheists as well - by comparing it to human philosophies). 
Genealogies and chronology (together with the history of israel as a nation and after this the history of the Christians) is very important to become a mature Christian - to follow the continuity of the outworking of Jehovah's purpose. 
If one knows about project management one will understand how the great "project manager" (Jehovah) has managed his affairs in heaven and on earth (without intervening too much into earthly affairs).  He only intervened when it was absolutely necessary; only when the 'final outcome' of his final purpose would be in jeopardy. He intervened with a flood for instance when his purpose could have been thwarted by Satan and his demons. He also intervened at Babylon with languages - he had very good reasons for doing so. He intervened with a dream when the parents of Jesus fled to Egypt to preserve Jesus's life - also important to preserve his purpose.  
Logic and continuity is very important in the timeline and this is why the prophecies and their fulfillment (relating to the timeline) is important. Ephesians 1:9 talks about how the purpose has been administered throughout the ages. While I will not debate over little silly things in the timeline - I have come to realize that it is highly important to understand that the bible is the ONLY reality on earth - and the only book which provides absolute reality and continuity.... every little thing fits into the predicted patterns ... and a timeline.... to the minutest detail.
This is why I see the bible as the only "reality" on earth..... and this is why I defend the timeline as presented by the slave - because it is logical and fits in with the purpose when one studies it in a logical way.  
I am studying this at present... and it is fascinating.... 

Thanks Nana - I was a coloratura soprano....  I only sing a few of the solo pieces by Handel now that I am 65 years old.  These arias were too low for me when I was younger. Handel's  soprano pieces were written for castrati.  Men sang female parts in those days! You therefore need a long breath for the phrases - something which castrati could easily cope with!
Back to our discussion: I find it so silly that persons on this forum say that a dream by a foreign king cannot represent Jehovah's kingdom - that it will be cut off for seven periods to be ruled by "gentiles"  and then restored.  People here think they know Jehovah better than he knows himself - they think he would not use an image like that!!!   But to my mind it is perfect! 
You see - most gentile kings were often assassinated by family members or their own sons who wanted to take the rulership. Jehovah perfectly preserved Nebuchadnezzar's kingship for him for 7 years - which is really remarkable - the same as he 'guaranteed the continuity' of the Davidic line. It helps us to see Jehovah's hand in the outworking of his purposes.  For what reason would Jehovah preserve a foreigner's personal rulership?  .... if it was not to use it as a picture of something.  Nebuchadnezzar was a nasty tyrant!  His children could easily have taken his place and kept the family line going until the end of  the 70 years. (If I remember correctly Neriglissar was murdered- he only ruled for 4 years.) Jehovah had a purpose for the dream just as he had a purpose for the dreams which Joseph had for a foreign pharaoh.   
There are many examples in the bible where Jehovah used 'unsuitable' people for prophetic pictures. I recall that Jehovah told a prophet to marry a whore and then forgive her whoring ways - she would produce sons who were not his. This would be prophetic of the behavior of israel. 
According to the person's thinking above - Jehovah would never do that!  So we better throw out these bits of the bible ....  Most of Daniel is prophetic anyway..... with history interwoven between the various visions and dreams.
Any case - as I demonstrated above - these people totally disregard the realities on the ground and keep on with 'debates' about unimportant bits (which they of course feel are more important that reality!)  The reality is that there is no other alternative to explain what respected historians have called " the year the world changed - 1914".
They never seem to answer these questions - just ramble on in their own worn out path..... 
Sifting out the gnats (the small bits in their close sightedness) and swallowing all the cockroaches! 
Missing out on the bigger picture!

Thanks Nana - I was a coloratura soprano....  I only sing a few of the solo pieces by Handel now that I am 65 years old.  These arias were too low for me when I was younger. Handel's  soprano pieces were written for castrati.  Men sang female parts in those days! You therefore need a long breath for the phrases - something which castrati could easily cope with!
Back to our discussion: I find it so silly that persons on this forum say that a dream by a foreign king cannot represent Jehovah's kingdom - that it will be cut off for seven periods to be ruled by "gentiles"  and then restored.  People here think they know Jehovah better than he knows himself - they think he would not use an image like that!!!   But to my mind it is perfect! 
You see - most gentile kings were often assassinated by family members or their own sons who wanted to take the rulership. Jehovah perfectly preserved Nebuchadnezzar's kingship for him for 7 years - which is really remarkable - the same as he 'guaranteed the continuity' of the Davidic line. It helps us to see Jehovah's hand in the outworking of his purposes.  For what reason would Jehovah preserve a foreigner's personal rulership?  .... if it was not to use it as a picture of something.  Nebuchadnezzar was a nasty tyrant!  His children could easily have taken his place and kept the family line going until the end of  the 70 years. (If I remember correctly Neriglissar was murdered- he only ruled for 4 years.) Jehovah had a purpose for the dream just as he had a purpose for the dreams which Joseph had for a foreign pharaoh.   
There are many examples in the bible where Jehovah used 'unsuitable' people for prophetic pictures. I recall that Jehovah told a prophet to marry a whore and then forgive her whoring ways - she would produce sons who were not his. This would be prophetic of the behavior of israel. 
According to the person's thinking above - Jehovah would never do that!  So we better throw out these bits of the bible ....  Most of Daniel is prophetic anyway..... with history interwoven between the various visions and dreams.
Any case - as I demonstrated above - these people totally disregard the realities on the ground and keep on with 'debates' about unimportant bits (which they of course feel are more important that reality!)  The reality is that there is no other alternative to explain what respected historians have called " the year the world changed - 1914".
They never seem to answer these questions - just ramble on in their own worn out path..... 
Sifting out the gnats (the small bits in their close sightedness) and swallowing all the cockroaches! 
Missing out on the bigger picture!

I am not going to count all the red  'scribal errors' in the above presentation because these are all flimsy reasonings - and what is more - you know it.
As I said above -  it is a rehash of old rehashes - which frankly - are myopic because they do not take the OVERALL timeline into account.  I recall that we discussed this before, how 1914 came AFTER  the INDUSTRIAL revolution and how this was the first WORLD war - not only in its size but also in its scope of modern weaponry and use of chemicals weapons etc - which happened to begin a more and more sophisticated arms race which is now becoming something like star wars if you read what Russia is doing at present. 
Since 1914 the 'signs ' have been undeniable and your  reasonings have been unscholarly (like a pining old maid longing for the days that were when she had her glory - now gone.) Wake up and look around you at the world we are living in!  The proof for 1914 is here in real life AND BECOMING INCREASINGLY serious!  
Luck?  I would not say so - Jehovah's spiritual guidance.  The 70 week prophesy regarding Jesus' coming and all the other prophecies gives a timeline for Jehovah's overall plan which I call the "restoration project" under his Kingdom - which is the main theme running throughout the bible. Do you really think Jehovah will let the nation he is using, who have to preach about the Kingdom in the last days - misunderstand the main theme and its unseen arrival - the kingdom? We are the only ones who understand about the future government - the 144000..... Ah yes - but I recall you do not believe we need "signs" because you think Jesus is going to come back in the flesh?
Wake up!  We ARE an imperfect NATION who is living in reasonable harmony and peace in a increasingly irrational world where everything is more and more violent and chaotic!  Jehovah's nation is the only nation on earth today that is NEUTRAL to politics - which fits in with Revelation 17 & 18 - to get out of her. Their neutrality is a sign that they are the people of God because Satan's propaganda is going out into the world gearing everyone up to some form of hate and violence due to perceived injustices.  Brother will kill brother during Armageddon - for sure because everyone is becoming more and more divided with perceived injustice! 
The western world is facing demise - not only by the Islamic threat to use violence to take over the world (apart from a few other powerful people with money who have the same objective - to come out tops and have influence over peoples and nations)...... but also the progressive modernist philosophies which have infiltrated the entire West and all its highest institutions of learning - the universities.  Have you been watching what is going on or are you living in lala-land? The top philosophers of the world are now lamenting the condition of humans on earth and fear for the loss of Western civilization as we know it in the next few years.  
The environmental threats to the 'existence' on earth of humans in future are accelerating at an alarming rate while most governments do not care that we are facing EXTINCTION of the food chains in te sea and land. Climate change, garbage buildup, the poisoned water resources, deforestation, poisoned agricultural land etc. is progressing faster than expected.  Soon - ALL these combined threats will come to a head and cause major problems even in developed countries........ the writing is on the wall!!!
Jehovah is truly allowing for time since 1914 to prove that technological (advanced/developed) mankind cannot rule the world successfully..... the proof is here.  So stop shouting - the end should be here.  Jesus said this would happen.  Show patience - all the signs are here and the end is close.  Even if I die today - I have seen and read enough to know the proof is here on the ground! and in the news!
Most religions that were known for complacency are now becoming militant - Buddists are killing. Hindus as killing Muslims (and Christians) because they eat beef etc etc.  There is only one NATION that is totally committed to non-violence because they have been gently forged and educated to become ONE non-violent nation.  There are individuals who may not withstand the test but as a NATION we will survive.  How do you explain these teachings of non-violence in a world which is getting more violent?  It is the sign of Jehovah - the love that will be in his nation..... if you cannot see this you are more rebellious than I thought.  Your scholarliness has made you blind to everything else around you - like being locked up in a room for 50 years and the key thrown away..... living in the days of old...look forward.
Not only is Jehovah a time-keeper but he is pure logic.  If you look at the Bible itself it gives us a reason to know that the 8th king (in the timeline) as mentioned in revelation is already present and being ridden by false religion........ soon they will have to turn against religion to maintain peace and security - security is becoming a rare commodity as time is panting to its end (almost in slow motion like a movie one is watching over and over with the violence and bombs etc).
Jesus said: if your eye makes you stumble - take it out.  You have a pet OCD that you need to get out of your life  because it is making you stumble.... and weakening those who listen to you..... Jehovah loves you but what you are doing is misleading others when all the PRESENT signs are already here.
In 3 years, ISIS created such havoc in the middle east.  Now they are amongst us...... what do you think is waiting for the world?  America has its racial and, drug and divided political  issues...... and what is more - people are developing violent attitudes.... stability and TRUTH /ethics is GONE - FINITO - never to return!  No-one can fix what is happening now.... It is staring us in the face and some are too busy with their own agendas to notice!
 

Thanks Nana - I reread both articles -  Cyrus is known as the first person to show 'human rights' because he tolerated all other religions..... and participated in their rituals (just like Alexander the Great later did). He was anointed for the job (to send israel back to their land) by Jehovah and it is amazing how he came from a very small insignificant kingdom to become such a powerful ruler almost overnight. Jehovah overshadowed him because he was a brilliant diplomat - winning over many of the smaller persian tribes to unite.  By talking to all the troops (when his Median grandfather came up against him in war) he managed to unite them as well.  After he did the job for Jehovah (Babylon fell) he became power hungry and made war father to the North.
The date of Cyrus' death is confirmed.... so from there it is easy to count back....
To add to the information above -  I read a book about the last war Cyrus participated in (quite a few years ago) -  He died at the hands of a woman soldier (who came from the Amazonian tribes to the north).  One ghastly thing I remember was reading about these tribes and their customs.  When a person felt old and wanted to die - the person would let themselves be killed and the rest of the tribe would eat the person at a party.  This was the kind of people who became the nemeses of Cyrus.
I love to read how the spirit of Jehovah was active in all these instances and made things happen overnight..... So I trust Jehovah to lead his people in our time as well.  Collectively - Jehovah's spirit is working on all the humble ones.  Not the smart and the intelligent - but the humble ones.  Moses must have been well educated but after working with sheep for 40 years he felt himself too incompetent to speak to the Pharaoh. These are the kind of people Jehovah uses.  It boggles the mind. If an elder does not push his own individuality- it gives the Holy Spirit a better chance to work in the group.  I know that all have not yet leant this but I have seen how elders accomplish much more by true humility.
This is also true of the date 1914.  It was not mere luck - it was Jehovah's spirit. Something our skeptics do not understand. All the signs are here of the severe distress that is coming over the earth like a fog and it will settle like gloom when human organizations are no longer capable to provide any comfort or protection.
 
 

I have pointed it out before that JWs  establishment of 537BCE is NOT based on the Babylonian chronicles but mostly on Persian sources.  Middle east chronology is synchronized with Egyptology dates - and Egyptology dates are out with 300 years - with less as we get to the Greek Ptolemaic kings. Recently watched an interesting lecture by David Rohl.... fascinating evidence that the exodus did take place ...... if one looks in the right period.
Persian dates are verified by Greek sources and also with Babylonian chronicles.  Persian dates are counted in Olympiads and since the games were held every 4 years they are very reliable. But people on this forum keep on hashing up these Babylonian chronicles of very old king lists as though they were inspired by God! But these ex-witnesses  have an agenda.... this is why they keep rehashing these unreliable old Babylonian king lists.  While these lists are helpful they are not to be trusted as the only source of information. 
Please read the insight book to see where the organization get their dates.  Some of the Babylonian chronicles were copies of copies and written 250 years after Cyrus died. The organization give several good reasons why they do not use the Babylonian chronicles.
The death of Cyrus  is given in Olympiads as 62, year 2. (531/530 B.C.E)  Cuneiform tablets give Cyrus a reign of 9 years which substantiates his year of conquest as 539 BCE. (handbook of biblical chronology by Jack Finegan 1964. ) The kings which come AFTER Cyrus are also dated by these same methods and therefore the persian dates of succession are much more reliable. 
Astronomical calculations can also be misleading because the most reliable information is only a 'total' eclipse ... because many eclipses occur in a 50 year period and many are not  properly described - which can be misleading such as in the case with king Ahab.....  Please read this information in the insight as well.  
I fear there are some people here who think that the organization spends their entire time thinking up plots on how to cover up the "mistake of 1914" so they can be important..... but I think the shoe is on the other foot.  There are people here who think they are smarter than Jehovah's spirit and smarter than the available written information on the middle east and persian dynasties.  They keep bringing up the same old rehash of these Babylonian dates which I call the typical OCD of those who have lost Jehovah's spirit.
 

I have pointed it out before that JWs  establishment of 537BCE is NOT based on the Babylonian chronicles but mostly on Persian sources.  Middle east chronology is synchronized with Egyptology dates - and Egyptology dates are out with 300 years - with less as we get to the Greek Ptolemaic kings. Recently watched an interesting lecture by David Rohl.... fascinating evidence that the exodus did take place ...... if one looks in the right period.
Persian dates are verified by Greek sources and also with Babylonian chronicles.  Persian dates are counted in Olympiads and since the games were held every 4 years they are very reliable. But people on this forum keep on hashing up these Babylonian chronicles of very old king lists as though they were inspired by God! But these ex-witnesses  have an agenda.... this is why they keep rehashing these unreliable old Babylonian king lists.  While these lists are helpful they are not to be trusted as the only source of information. 
Please read the insight book to see where the organization get their dates.  Some of the Babylonian chronicles were copies of copies and written 250 years after Cyrus died. The organization give several good reasons why they do not use the Babylonian chronicles.
The death of Cyrus  is given in Olympiads as 62, year 2. (531/530 B.C.E)  Cuneiform tablets give Cyrus a reign of 9 years which substantiates his year of conquest as 539 BCE. (handbook of biblical chronology by Jack Finegan 1964. ) The kings which come AFTER Cyrus are also dated by these same methods and therefore the persian dates of succession are much more reliable. 
Astronomical calculations can also be misleading because the most reliable information is only a 'total' eclipse ... because many eclipses occur in a 50 year period and many are not  properly described - which can be misleading such as in the case with king Ahab.....  Please read this information in the insight as well.  
I fear there are some people here who think that the organization spends their entire time thinking up plots on how to cover up the "mistake of 1914" so they can be important..... but I think the shoe is on the other foot.  There are people here who think they are smarter than Jehovah's spirit and smarter than the available written information on the middle east and persian dynasties.  They keep bringing up the same old rehash of these Babylonian dates which I call the typical OCD of those who have lost Jehovah's spirit.
 

I have pointed it out before that JWs  establishment of 537BCE is NOT based on the Babylonian chronicles but mostly on Persian sources.  Middle east chronology is synchronized with Egyptology dates - and Egyptology dates are out with 300 years - with less as we get to the Greek Ptolemaic kings. Recently watched an interesting lecture by David Rohl.... fascinating evidence that the exodus did take place ...... if one looks in the right period.
Persian dates are verified by Greek sources and also with Babylonian chronicles.  Persian dates are counted in Olympiads and since the games were held every 4 years they are very reliable. But people on this forum keep on hashing up these Babylonian chronicles of very old king lists as though they were inspired by God! But these ex-witnesses  have an agenda.... this is why they keep rehashing these unreliable old Babylonian king lists.  While these lists are helpful they are not to be trusted as the only source of information. 
Please read the insight book to see where the organization get their dates.  Some of the Babylonian chronicles were copies of copies and written 250 years after Cyrus died. The organization give several good reasons why they do not use the Babylonian chronicles.
The death of Cyrus  is given in Olympiads as 62, year 2. (531/530 B.C.E)  Cuneiform tablets give Cyrus a reign of 9 years which substantiates his year of conquest as 539 BCE. (handbook of biblical chronology by Jack Finegan 1964. ) The kings which come AFTER Cyrus are also dated by these same methods and therefore the persian dates of succession are much more reliable. 
Astronomical calculations can also be misleading because the most reliable information is only a 'total' eclipse ... because many eclipses occur in a 50 year period and many are not  properly described - which can be misleading such as in the case with king Ahab.....  Please read this information in the insight as well.  
I fear there are some people here who think that the organization spends their entire time thinking up plots on how to cover up the "mistake of 1914" so they can be important..... but I think the shoe is on the other foot.  There are people here who think they are smarter than Jehovah's spirit and smarter than the available written information on the middle east and persian dynasties.  They keep bringing up the same old rehash of these Babylonian dates which I call the typical OCD of those who have lost Jehovah's spirit.
 

Yes. If you are going to go hogwild over critical thinking, then go all the way. Turn it upon the Bible itself. The reason we can look at the Bible the way we do is because we have 'tasted and seen that Jehovah is good.' It is experience that determines how we look upon things. But if you hail from the world of criticism, you cannot conceive of unity. You have never seen it. Leave these people to their own devices and there is no Bible book written as presented. Every one of them is a hash of conflicting authors with warring agendas. It is the only reality these scholars have ever observed and it colors all of their scholarship.
Bethel will never let go of 607, I don't think, because it enabled them to hit the nail on the head. The entire world only goes to war for the first time ever once in all millenia and they hit the year. Other years are known for various world leaders losing their library cards. Nothing packs the punch of 1914. If the entire world going to war concurrently for the first time ever isn't peace being taken from the world, what is? 
Even if the overlapping generations threaten to separate - and I wouldn't hold my breath on that - they could simply say that a generation is a loose term of a certain time period - say, like the 'industrial age.' In 1974 a brief snippet in the Watchtower quoted some source with that outlook, and I recall thinking that that view might surface again some day. @JW Insider can find it, no doubt. It was in the Watchtower's equivalent of 'watching the world' - a series that ran for awhile of 3 items to a page.
A few weeks ago there appeared in the meeting the Kingdom Rules book on Isaiah 11.  Discussing the return of the Jews from Babylonian exile and how they would be encouraged by Isaiah's prophesy about the animals, it said: "The lion would eat straw in the sense that it would not devour the Jews' cattle." They didn't have to do it. They could have said "God will supply them with bales of hay in order to feed the lions." Okay? They are not hung up on whether words are literal or figurative. 'Generation' will go more unconventional yet if it has to.
I am handicapped in the 607 discussion by not knowing anything about it. But it is less of a handicap then one might think. @Ann O'Maly trots out the 100 year old quote that profane history cannot be trusted because it is written by men of conflicting motives in a Satan-controlled world. She hopes anyone reading the quote with think the GB stupid. The quote differs hardly at all with 'history is written by the victors,' which she probably quotes with an air of superiority in other discussions. @Arauna pointed out before what anyone with discernment knows already - that the land of scholarship is one of big egos (she was speaking Egyptology, I think, but it is across the board) where the 'victors' to all they can do discredit whoever they have temporarily out-argued - defunding them, even banning them from access to materials. 
You don't go slobbering over critical thinking as the be-all and end-all. It is too easily outmaneuvered by other interests. 
 
 
 
 

Thanks for your 'sane' perspective -  very true, just like satan they are pure evil - but it is going against the nature of God and the way we were created...... there must be serious mental affects after their decisions...to be serial murderers like satan.
In England and some European states the sex crime rings are getting away with serious crimes against children. The governments are following the 'pressure' of the UN and EU and are using their limited police resources to "police" the internet.  Not to catch sex crime rings on the dark net but to monitor the general public who visit far right web sites or extremist web sites and those who say anything about a certain faith which 'believes it to be their duty' to bomb people into submission.  Quite a large number of people have already been taken into custody and face charges for posting stupid stuff on Facebook.
This is the level of injustice going on in the world - and the truly wicked are getting a free pass. And then people quote totally bias 'old studies' which were done by suspiciously bias people  for the sole purpose to show that Witnesses have serious mental issues - really?
Woke up this morning and thought about that "sea of humankind" in Isaiah 57... "20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt."
I work in a massive field which is really like a volatile, stormy sea.... one has to really keep on going and just sound the warning without hoping for much success. Every one needs to be warned.  Yesterday's bombing of 305 people dead in Egypt  -  305 families lost their father and livelihood! and many more injured...  To me these incidents are extremely heart breaking because of the social construct those wives and children face extreme hardship!
It is Muslim killing Muslim ......and yet when you mention something like this there is just excuses, excuses...   The mental condition of the entire world is seriously ill!!   There is no more logic thinking or common sense in any sphere of life..... and the worst is still to come...
When the next generation in the West starts to vomit up more 'mire" from the sea of insane "post-modern" philosophy, which is now responsible for so much problems at the universities and many militant clashes, then we will see the next phase of the world condition of human insanity.......we ain't seen nothing yet.
 

Thanks for your 'sane' perspective -  very true, just like satan they are pure evil - but it is going against the nature of God and the way we were created...... there must be serious mental affects after their decisions...to be serial murderers like satan.
In England and some European states the sex crime rings are getting away with serious crimes against children. The governments are following the 'pressure' of the UN and EU and are using their limited police resources to "police" the internet.  Not to catch sex crime rings on the dark net but to monitor the general public who visit far right web sites or extremist web sites and those who say anything about a certain faith which 'believes it to be their duty' to bomb people into submission.  Quite a large number of people have already been taken into custody and face charges for posting stupid stuff on Facebook.
This is the level of injustice going on in the world - and the truly wicked are getting a free pass. And then people quote totally bias 'old studies' which were done by suspiciously bias people  for the sole purpose to show that Witnesses have serious mental issues - really?
Woke up this morning and thought about that "sea of humankind" in Isaiah 57... "20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt."
I work in a massive field which is really like a volatile, stormy sea.... one has to really keep on going and just sound the warning without hoping for much success. Every one needs to be warned.  Yesterday's bombing of 305 people dead in Egypt  -  305 families lost their father and livelihood! and many more injured...  To me these incidents are extremely heart breaking because of the social construct those wives and children face extreme hardship!
It is Muslim killing Muslim ......and yet when you mention something like this there is just excuses, excuses...   The mental condition of the entire world is seriously ill!!   There is no more logic thinking or common sense in any sphere of life..... and the worst is still to come...
When the next generation in the West starts to vomit up more 'mire" from the sea of insane "post-modern" philosophy, which is now responsible for so much problems at the universities and many militant clashes, then we will see the next phase of the world condition of human insanity.......we ain't seen nothing yet.
 

Thanks for the video.  How do you classify people as lower classes? By their degrees?  Just look at some of the film makers and world leaders with high qualifications who have been accused of abnormal sexual activities in recent weeks. The methods used in the so-called studies were totally unscientific to say the least.  I would love to see a study where they DO NOT KNOW who is a witness and who not - this will be fair and just and rule out any predetermined bias.
To keep up with a busy life and do what witnesses do, I would think that one needs to function on a pretty high level of competence to maintain such a tight schedule.... and they stay reasonable even though they are put under pressure for their faith every day.  They face injustice and bias.
Unfortunately when psychiatrists start to give patients medication for bipolar (without the person really being bi-polar) the nature of the medicine is such that it puts great imbalance in the chemical balance of the person and they are stuck in a cycle of taking this medicine for life!  I do not trust psychiatrists - they give out dangerous pills like sweets. In really severe cases where a definite need is established, I would not criticize, but we all know it is like an industrial complex - pills are prescribed because it keeps the coffers of the pharmaceutical companies full.
A fair comparative study of the world and witnesses right now, will bring an even larger gap in numbers since most of the world is using all kinds of serious drugs and this includes Russia, middle east and most western countries. The use and proliferation of drugs has absolutely sky-rocketed! together with immorality and crime.
Study the criminality and mental health of the population and you will see that most of these terrorist killers are now classified as mentally ill to get lesser prison sentences.  We all know it is the crazy fundamentalist ideology driving this. But one does not see them publishing studies on it - one is not even allowed to say anything publically - then you are called names and these terrorists  have been responsible for more than 30,000 attacks world wide since 9/11. (This excludes far-left and far-right ideological groups)
Most witnesses (with or without) a mental illness are totally harmless to other people.  It is rare that they would kill another person.  While sexual misconduct has been tolerated in the world in the past - and did not receive the attention it should have amongst the elite - it is now (at last) being spoken of and we can see the prevalence of it.  The powerful can 'cover' their tracks and get away with it and some can be classified as sociopaths or some other nasty label. 
The few deviant witnesses who have perpetrated sexual crimes have received an inordinate amount of attention in the press in the past.  While other serious sexual criminals have been getting away with it.  I am now thinking of the sexual crime rings (pedophilia) which has been covered up for years in Scotland, Ireland and UK - to just name 3 countries.
Just this week they busted a crime ring (Russia and Italy) where videos were made with children being ill-treated so bad and then "snuffed".   And there is a big underworld business for this!  So don't talk of 'mental illness' amongst witnesses because most of them would not stoop to this level of debasement.  One needs to be seriously mentally ill to be curious to  snuff out children and watch sadistic videos with children - I do not see any studies on this!
 
 

Frankly - it is not about pleasing your weird wishes - we also do not accept your challenges, even if you call us cowards. People who have left us - we do not worry about them.  If their heart is right they will find their way back.
It is the ones who think they know it all and have found bliss in the great big world out there but yet, they cannot help themselves to come to websites where they know they will find Witnesses - and then obsessively troll them. 
There is something OCD about those who have left Jehovah on bad terms...... they obsessively come back with dubious intentions. I have seen this over and over again. Many of them seem to suffer from this OCD phenomena.  This alone should tell you - there is some kind of problem. Stalking (even on internet) is a problem. So, I do not need no study to tell me that some do have  emotional problems. 
Seriously - if their lives were happy and they have found wonderful new goals - they will leave the past behind and get on with their lives and look to the future.  But they cannot.  They cannot get on with their lives  because they cannot let go. If I were a psychologist I would say they need help to leave - totally.

Not sure what you found so offensive. So on this note, could you as a moderator please tell jw's here to back up erroneous claims especially when they are the ones saying something condemning ex jw's. thank you

Frankly - it is not about pleasing your weird wishes - we also do not accept your challenges, even if you call us cowards. People who have left us - we do not worry about them.  If their heart is right they will find their way back.
It is the ones who think they know it all and have found bliss in the great big world out there but yet, they cannot help themselves to come to websites where they know they will find Witnesses - and then obsessively troll them. 
There is something OCD about those who have left Jehovah on bad terms...... they obsessively come back with dubious intentions. I have seen this over and over again. Many of them seem to suffer from this OCD phenomena.  This alone should tell you - there is some kind of problem. Stalking (even on internet) is a problem. So, I do not need no study to tell me that some do have  emotional problems. 
Seriously - if their lives were happy and they have found wonderful new goals - they will leave the past behind and get on with their lives and look to the future.  But they cannot.  They cannot get on with their lives  because they cannot let go. If I were a psychologist I would say they need help to leave - totally.