Arauna

Insider,  I agree with you that the GB seems more calm and kinder now and more mature BUT this does not mean that they will not fall foul of some other sinful quality!  And it is not always Satan - it is just the sinfulness and wrong desires (dominance/competitiveness/ ego) in each of us which leads to bad behavior. Satan will also use any flaw in a person if he sees a gap.
This is why I always caution that we must all of us watch ourselves when it comes to ambition (even in the truth); do not believe that you have the only way of doing something; and ANY form of control over others must be avoided.  If we do not cooperate - we are abusing our power.  A child can abuse the power he has over the family when he does not cooperate.  He can make his parents life difficult.  and.... where there is no peace.... then righteousness cannot grow.  One must keep peace at all costs ..... but many have not learnt that yet because we are all at different levels of development.  Some also learn some things faster than others.
I have been on field service with sisters that are so controlling that I actually want to avoid them the next time - but force myself to be impartial and overlook this DEADLY quality because it destroys unhypocrytical love..   They are usually older sisters and set in their ways - so I try to find the good in them.
I think the shouting match that Paulus had with Barnabas is a good reason for us to not expect people to be perfect and where ever people are - imperfection is sure to follow - and there is always that EGO to a stronger or lesser degree. The anointed man who slept with his own mother and then was later accepted back into the congregation just shows the level to which Jehovah can forgive and what we must be prepared to forgive..... I also believe to speak my mind openly but always try to do it in a loving way.  When in doubt - show love. Sort things immediately in a nice way.... and it has worked for me.  When I was younger I was afraid to speak out but as Paul said: the older sisters also have a role to play to inspire the younger ones and teach the young wives to love their husbands.
The new meeting materials that focus on Christian living - I was very happy when this new feature was brought in because I thought this was really a facet of our Christian living which was neglected before... yea - so we all have our little peeves....  but I honestly believe we must overlook this and get on with only focusing on Jehovah.
My brother - when he was in prison for the truth ( 3 years) told me that he saw some seriously nasty things amongst the brothers (people are just people and immature) and it caused divisions - while they were all trying to keep their integrity to Jehovah.... so yes... I do think that we may in future be thrown into prison together and then we will have to cope with each other..... this will not be a piece of cake.... but if we can do it we will get the crown of life!  Sometimes out tests come from within the congregation!

Insider,  I agree with you that the GB seems more calm and kinder now and more mature BUT this does not mean that they will not fall foul of some other sinful quality!  And it is not always Satan - it is just the sinfulness and wrong desires (dominance/competitiveness/ ego) in each of us which leads to bad behavior. Satan will also use any flaw in a person if he sees a gap.
This is why I always caution that we must all of us watch ourselves when it comes to ambition (even in the truth); do not believe that you have the only way of doing something; and ANY form of control over others must be avoided.  If we do not cooperate - we are abusing our power.  A child can abuse the power he has over the family when he does not cooperate.  He can make his parents life difficult.  and.... where there is no peace.... then righteousness cannot grow.  One must keep peace at all costs ..... but many have not learnt that yet because we are all at different levels of development.  Some also learn some things faster than others.
I have been on field service with sisters that are so controlling that I actually want to avoid them the next time - but force myself to be impartial and overlook this DEADLY quality because it destroys unhypocrytical love..   They are usually older sisters and set in their ways - so I try to find the good in them.
I think the shouting match that Paulus had with Barnabas is a good reason for us to not expect people to be perfect and where ever people are - imperfection is sure to follow - and there is always that EGO to a stronger or lesser degree. The anointed man who slept with his own mother and then was later accepted back into the congregation just shows the level to which Jehovah can forgive and what we must be prepared to forgive..... I also believe to speak my mind openly but always try to do it in a loving way.  When in doubt - show love. Sort things immediately in a nice way.... and it has worked for me.  When I was younger I was afraid to speak out but as Paul said: the older sisters also have a role to play to inspire the younger ones and teach the young wives to love their husbands.
The new meeting materials that focus on Christian living - I was very happy when this new feature was brought in because I thought this was really a facet of our Christian living which was neglected before... yea - so we all have our little peeves....  but I honestly believe we must overlook this and get on with only focusing on Jehovah.
My brother - when he was in prison for the truth ( 3 years) told me that he saw some seriously nasty things amongst the brothers (people are just people and immature) and it caused divisions - while they were all trying to keep their integrity to Jehovah.... so yes... I do think that we may in future be thrown into prison together and then we will have to cope with each other..... this will not be a piece of cake.... but if we can do it we will get the crown of life!  Sometimes out tests come from within the congregation!

Thanks for showing such true concern. It's deeply appreciated. Those old posts are still in this thread. The ones that were moved to a separate thread (so far) made up 6 or 7 of the 20 pages of this thread. So those posts are still here, and in the same order, but by moving so many near-adjacent posts, they fall on different pages now. 
Regarding Bethel experiences, I look back on all of it overall with fond and happy memories. I know there was an initial shock, not so much at the existence of cursing and abusive behavior, but at the pervasiveness and acceptance of it among those with high levels of responsibility. I just typed up two cases that I thought were informative to your point but removed them to avoid raising new topics. The point was that I sometimes mistook mildness and meekness for humility, when it could also be paired with the height of egotism. And in another case where a brother ranted loudly and even slammed a newly published book across the room, I came to appreciate that he really thought he was protecting the worldwide congregation from error. As a young person, I didn't have the tools to understand people very well, and for many years still we continue to learn from new experiences that shed light on old ones.
But when we realize and accept that some negative type of behavior is widespread, we also tend to accept it ourselves too easily, I think. And I'm sure the level of privilege has something to do with that. I had excellent and wonderful assignments, and I wouldn't have risked them to give any kind of feedback to someone who could control my assignments. I would expect an argument here and there in the bindery or pressroom, and yet I heard they were rare. I wondered if they were worse among persons of greater responsibility. These weren't daily occurrences, of course, because we always tend to remember and highlight the exceptions. Even if those exceptions are negative.
Obviously, when it comes to doctrinal questions, I do the same thing here on the forum. I could go on and on about why our stance on war, hell and Trinity, for example, is such a good thing in that doesn't just set us apart, but also produces a much healthier Christianity than we could expect from those who see things differently. But instead, I assume we all know that alrady and try to share something that I think we probably do wrong, and which I believe can hurt our Christianity and spirituality unless we look into it.
(By the way, I mostly push the idea that we look into something even if my reasons appear too strongly promoted. I don't usually have a specific solution about exactly what we must do to resolve the issues that arise. I think that's what a Governing Body is for. I might have ideas but don't think it's my place to push a specific solution when there are multiple choices of solutions. However, I always think that discussions can help prepare us for change, and will promote less dogmatism, and therefore more humility in the meantime. This helps us empathize with those we meet in field service and other interested persons.)
On the issue of false rumors starting from nothing, I know it doesn't make much sense. We'd rather believe there was a kernel of truth to them. But in this case, I think I was there to watch the germination of a different kind of  phenomenon. I saw brothers and sisters change from being loving to almost literally "spitting" in a split second when they heard about the "apostasy" charges that several persons received. It was the incongruent variety of extra charges that were heaped upon some of the brothers and sisters that got to me. Within days, these might have coalesced into only one or two charges that were finally settled upon, but even these were clearly far-fetched and sometimes contradictory. I think it's more of a matter of our own minds not being able to manage the "justice" of casting out brothers and sisters that were so loving and kind and would do anything for you yesterday, but were called a disgusting cancer today. I think the mind just needs to create a story to solve the dissonance.
Your point about looking forward instead of back is so apt. I have three children, and in raising them, we often made the mistake of trying to draw out every detail of a conflict between any two of them. We wanted the whole story each time. Each person's version, and then as parents we know doubt imposed on our own compromised versions on top of it to make it coherent. What a waste of time! Your counsel to look forward, and focus on what we'll all do in the future to help each other avoid conflict creates on-going trust and therefore misconceptions and imputed bad motives don't have so much "breeding" room.
I have a feeling that the current GB get along many times better than the 17 at once during my tour of duty. I hear from a friend that these kinds of issues are more likely only from the more competitive among the "helpers." I visited Patterson early last year (and Brooklyn Bethel, too, but it doesn't tell you as much any more) and I see a much more professional group who appear less likely to let education levels, class differences, and various insecurities get in the way.

Don't know who wrote the Wikipedia article about David Rohl you are quoting but it is not accurate.  Rohl's dates are closer to the dates given by the Witnesses.  Most atheists say there is no evidence of the exodus in the bible.  Rohl is of the contention that they are looking in the wrong time-line for it because the evidence is there!   Many of these contentious Egyptian chronologists (Rohl included) say the ancient Egyptian history is out by 200 years and closer to the time of Nebuchadnezzar they are out by 20 years. 

I agree: It is remarkable that Israel won their wars under almost impossible circumstances just after the creation of their own country 1947.  I admire them as a people. They are on the forefront of new technologies and have turned Israel into a agricultural productive country where it was a wasteland before. I also see that the Muslim lobby has created hate groups against Jews at present.....(They believe Jews are apes and pigs).    However...., What I do not agree with is: that most Christians tout this as the reason why they think that Israel is still the true nation of God and send them large donations.
Very few people go back in history to look for the  links with the  Rothschild family (promises to them that Israel shall receive their own state after the break up of the Turkish Empire).   The Belfour declaration and its links with a certain letter written by the then British Prime Minister (Wilson) to Mr. Rothschild after he (Rotschield) made promises to get America included in the war. This was at the time Germany called for an armistice - before America came into the war.  
The entire situation before the first world war with Lenin and Trotsky (real name: Lev Davidovich Bronstein) and the fall of the Russian king etc. and the call from the Jews to boycott Germany so that they could not sell any of their products produced in a labor based economy in any other country of the world. It was also in this time that the FEDERAL Bank was created 1913.  Money and war colluding!  This is the history of the world.... and the innocent suffer.
Similarly at present: there are rich people behind the scenes backing their groups on the ground with big money, who in turn pressure the governments in certain ways (far-left and far-right groups).  Then there are religions who are now riding the beast....and also receiving large amounts of money from the middle east etc..
So it helps to find out the history behind the history  - then you will not be gullible to believe that any government is innocent or people of God.    They are all  "beastlike".
 
 

Don't know who wrote the Wikipedia article about David Rohl you are quoting but it is not accurate.  Rohl's dates are closer to the dates given by the Witnesses.  Most atheists say there is no evidence of the exodus in the bible.  Rohl is of the contention that they are looking in the wrong time-line for it because the evidence is there!   Many of these contentious Egyptian chronologists (Rohl included) say the ancient Egyptian history is out by 200 years and closer to the time of Nebuchadnezzar they are out by 20 years. 

I agree: It is remarkable that Israel won their wars under almost impossible circumstances just after the creation of their own country 1947.  I admire them as a people. They are on the forefront of new technologies and have turned Israel into a agricultural productive country where it was a wasteland before. I also see that the Muslim lobby has created hate groups against Jews at present.....(They believe Jews are apes and pigs).    However...., What I do not agree with is: that most Christians tout this as the reason why they think that Israel is still the true nation of God and send them large donations.
Very few people go back in history to look for the  links with the  Rothschild family (promises to them that Israel shall receive their own state after the break up of the Turkish Empire).   The Belfour declaration and its links with a certain letter written by the then British Prime Minister (Wilson) to Mr. Rothschild after he (Rotschield) made promises to get America included in the war. This was at the time Germany called for an armistice - before America came into the war.  
The entire situation before the first world war with Lenin and Trotsky (real name: Lev Davidovich Bronstein) and the fall of the Russian king etc. and the call from the Jews to boycott Germany so that they could not sell any of their products produced in a labor based economy in any other country of the world. It was also in this time that the FEDERAL Bank was created 1913.  Money and war colluding!  This is the history of the world.... and the innocent suffer.
Similarly at present: there are rich people behind the scenes backing their groups on the ground with big money, who in turn pressure the governments in certain ways (far-left and far-right groups).  Then there are religions who are now riding the beast....and also receiving large amounts of money from the middle east etc..
So it helps to find out the history behind the history  - then you will not be gullible to believe that any government is innocent or people of God.    They are all  "beastlike".
 
 

They moved some of the threads - sorry do not know where to find them!
I wanted to talk about the thoughts expressed by Insider.   After reading your experiences in Bethel you were on my mind - lets say - a lot. Was I shocked by your feelings and revelations?  NO.  People are people and Jehovah allows persons to choose their way and behavior.  Unfortunately, there are people who like to dominate others and as I said before - this is not a Christ-like quality. There are also those who like to sow doubt while they are busy with wicked things themselves.  So these persons were an instrument - not to break your faith BUT to break your trust.  However,  I do not distrust Jehovah when my neighbor does something bad to me - so the same when I brother does not act in a way we would expect. 
I can imagine the effect this can have on a young, eager mind.  But also remember - you do not know the inside story. He may have been seen - hence the rumors - and everything said and done in secret was revealed at once..... .
 I have read articles about the re-wiring of the brain or the strengthening of connections. Every time you re-live an emotion or a bad past experience your are re-wiring the memory again.....  So in order to look forward ... and not look back too much - do not think about bad experiences too much.  Jehovah told Cain to not let his bad thoughts control him.  He was expected to get control over it.  He did not listen to this advice direct from Jehovah. If your trust was shaken - sufficient time has now passed for you to get a more mature perspective of what happened.  If he was humble enough for correction would he not have come back later?  So did Jehovah withhold his spirit for a reason? 
My husband and I often talk about the earlier generations - they were more harsh because they were punished quite severely in school and most of them grew up in very strict (obedient to parents/teachers) environments.  The two world wars also had a great effect on society - more rigid.  So while I do not apologize for this behavior it is always good to look for mitigating circumstances and remember the Jehovah is the final judge.
It just worries me to think that it is still so vivid in your mind.  The restructuring of the GB and committees has made it less likely to happen again.  Now they pay much more attention to "reviling" than before.  If the dis-fellowshipped group displayed any form of defiant behavior - I  can understand why they then would quickly dis-fellowship them. Wicked people, often play on peoples feelings by playing the 'victim'. It is just another form of deceit.
The GB will definitely be attacked again by Satan and people maybe dis-fellowshipped. ... If there are people who can be used by satan to sow doubt or other behaviors which can break trust - he will do so - of this I am certain.

BCE - The Greeks figured time by means of four-year periods called Olympiads, starting from the first Olympiad, calculated as beginning in 776 B.C.E. Additionally, they often identified specific years by referring to the term of office of some particular official. More accurate and more sources than the Babylonian chronology. However, evidence will be stronger if one uses  BOTH  - not just one set of evidences!
539 BCE is the most accurate date because not only do the Babylonian sources agree but also when one takes the death of Cyrus (confirmed at 530 BCE from many sources.  + 9 years rule -   gives one 539 BCE for fall of Babylon. (battle of Opis given in same year.... so there are many additional  'indications' that this date is good...... and the proof is still on the ground!!regarding 1914 as the date which Jesus started ruling amidst his enemies! and the first resurrection took place.
 
 

It IS in the Qur'an:   Mohammad wanted to sleep with his adopted son's wife when he saw her and wrote in the Quran that maybe Allah will give her to him. (surah 33 if I remember correctly).  His son felt obliged to divorce her so Mr. M can sleep with her.  This is how this law started  in the Quran that another man has to sleep with her before a wife can go back to her husband after he has divorced her by saying 3 times: Talaq, Talaq, Talaq.  (By the way this is not viewed as adultery). So it has become quite a big business where men advertise to be paid to do the job and in many cases the Imam takes this duty.........for money..... to sleep with the wife so her husband can take her back.  Wives are in terrible stress because they do not want to do this but have to in order to go back!  So much for the rights of wives! Some of the pagans in his time were shocked that Mr M slept with his own adopted son's wife (viewed as his own son) so then  Mr M changed the laws on adoption.... to suit himself.

It IS in the Qur'an:   Mohammad wanted to sleep with his adopted son's wife when he saw her and wrote in the Quran that maybe Allah will give her to him. (surah 33 if I remember correctly).  His son felt obliged to divorce her so Mr. M can sleep with her.  This is how this law started  in the Quran that another man has to sleep with her before a wife can go back to her husband after he has divorced her by saying 3 times: Talaq, Talaq, Talaq.  (By the way this is not viewed as adultery).
So it has become quite a big business where men advertise to be paid to do the job and in many cases the Imam takes this duty.........for money..... to sleep with the wife so her husband can take her back.  Wives are in terrible stress because they do not want to do this but have to in order to go back!  So much for the rights of wives!
Some of the pagans in his time were shocked that Mr M slept with his own adopted son's wife (viewed as his own son) so then  Mr M changed the laws on adoption.... to suit himself.

Ok M'dear,
Thanks Nana for quoting: The Babylonian Chronicles: Classification and Provenance
There are many sources which gives the end of Cyrus' rule as 530 BCE. To quote " Insight on the Scriptures:
"The date of 539 B.C.E. for the fall of Babylon can be arrived at not only by Ptolemy’s canon but by other sources as well. The historian Diodorus, as well as Africanus and Eusebius, shows that Cyrus’ first year as king of Persia corresponded to Olympiad 55, year 1 (560/559 B.C.E.), while Cyrus’ last year is placed at Olympiad 62, year 2 (531/530 B.C.E.).
Cuneiform tablets give Cyrus a rule of nine years over Babylon, which would therefore substantiate the year 539 as the date of his conquest of Babylon.—Handbook of Biblical Chronology, by Jack Finegan, 1964, pp. 112, 168-170; Babylonian Chronology, 626 B.C.–A.D. 75, p. 14; 
Cyrus died 530 + 9 year rule over Babylon before he died - he conquered Babylon in 539 BCE. Which is also the year for the battle of OPIS according to Babylonian Chronicles. This date is accurate!
 
Regarding a comment the other threads:
I do not buy this idea that a totally innocent person was dis-fellowshipped.   Although brothers are asked not to 'talk' about things - there must have been witnesses to some unbecoming or compromising situations or behavior - and these witnesses could have spoken out of place - given reasons secretly to friends.... and it spread like wild fire.    
I was not there but I firmly believe that when people start deviating from the straight and narrow path and repeat this behavior (it is a practice of a behavior not a mistake which gets a person dis-fellowshipped)  then Jehovah (and the angels) usually gives them time to confess - AFTER which he withdraws his spirit.  When people lose Jehovah's spirit they become arrogant,  defiant or put themselves in opposition to the organization.  So there could have been other behavior which triggered a Judas-like attitude - apart form the disagreements about time-lines. 
Judas was practicing a wrong attitude for a long time because he was stealing money over a time period. He could have confessed but he kept it secret - which lead to him to become so angry when satan entered him- and he betrayed Jesus.
 
 
 

Ok M'dear,
Thanks Nana for quoting: The Babylonian Chronicles: Classification and Provenance
There are many sources which gives the end of Cyrus' rule as 530 BCE. To quote " Insight on the Scriptures:
"The date of 539 B.C.E. for the fall of Babylon can be arrived at not only by Ptolemy’s canon but by other sources as well. The historian Diodorus, as well as Africanus and Eusebius, shows that Cyrus’ first year as king of Persia corresponded to Olympiad 55, year 1 (560/559 B.C.E.), while Cyrus’ last year is placed at Olympiad 62, year 2 (531/530 B.C.E.).
Cuneiform tablets give Cyrus a rule of nine years over Babylon, which would therefore substantiate the year 539 as the date of his conquest of Babylon.—Handbook of Biblical Chronology, by Jack Finegan, 1964, pp. 112, 168-170; Babylonian Chronology, 626 B.C.–A.D. 75, p. 14; 
Cyrus died 530 + 9 year rule over Babylon before he died - he conquered Babylon in 539 BCE. Which is also the year for the battle of OPIS according to Babylonian Chronicles. This date is accurate!
 
Regarding a comment the other threads:
I do not buy this idea that a totally innocent person was dis-fellowshipped.   Although brothers are asked not to 'talk' about things - there must have been witnesses to some unbecoming or compromising situations or behavior - and these witnesses could have spoken out of place - given reasons secretly to friends.... and it spread like wild fire.    
I was not there but I firmly believe that when people start deviating from the straight and narrow path and repeat this behavior (it is a practice of a behavior not a mistake which gets a person dis-fellowshipped)  then Jehovah (and the angels) usually gives them time to confess - AFTER which he withdraws his spirit.  When people lose Jehovah's spirit they become arrogant,  defiant or put themselves in opposition to the organization.  So there could have been other behavior which triggered a Judas-like attitude - apart form the disagreements about time-lines. 
Judas was practicing a wrong attitude for a long time because he was stealing money over a time period. He could have confessed but he kept it secret - which lead to him to become so angry when satan entered him- and he betrayed Jesus.
 
 
 

Threadmeister? Great. I hereby rule that no one can make more than two posts in this thread containing lyrics from My Fair Lady. 
So show me you understand, and, if you did it, then just you wait because I know the street where you live, and with a little bit of luck, we'll carry on without you. But right now, I've got a customer to face.

The reason why you cannot accept 539 BCE as the only secular date which is truly verified is because you use mainly Babylonian sources to try to verify the date and their dates are all over the place - not reliable (reigns which are too long and impossible to correlate etc.)
The Persian and Greek sources gets us to the truth.  Please look up when the battle of OPIS took place and between who....?  This took place before Cyrus went right into Babylon.
This will give you a good idea why 537 BCE is correct for the return of the Jews to Jerusalem - which in turn proves that 607 BCE and 1914 is accurate.
The reason for the 'myopia' is an inability to accept that the slave (very imperfect and uneducated though they may be) may just have made a big mistake and accidentally got it RIGHT - because Jehovah was guiding them. The problems came when someone's ego got the better of them and they abused their power and were removed.... 
All the knowledge in the world cannot fight against the knowledge of Jehovah... and he can use his spirit to assist who he wants?  When a "mistake" (some people used their influence to say it is a mistake) turns out to be spot on later - as more historical facts were opened up - is it not quite revealing?  Don't you agree? 
Even if you feel you have "special insight" this does not mean that you have.   The ability to show the 'fruits' is cooperation, to subject your free will to Jehovah and help with the preaching work - become a slave of Jehovah and help the rest of his "slave".  (A slave has no personal power but has to do as he is told - the preaching).  Personally I would refuse to go out with someone who does not accept that Jehovah is guiding his people or "recognize" the 'slave' because we have to "help" our brothers with the commission they were given.
ANOTHER important question: How would you run such a large organization as ours when you have no special business training and you are responsible for the management and written content which goes out into the entire world; massive operations on a large scale and all on donations.....You have to try to manage other problems in congregations too - on top of millions of laws in every different country etc etc.  Did they fail in some aspects or re-act instead of being pro-active?  Of course they did.  CEOs do not even get it right...
CEOs which earn literally millions of dollars per year do not get it right and move around from company to company (we know what is going on in the banking industry and many Fortune 500 companies - don't we?)  and.......they do not have to cope with Satan's focus on them, trying to undermine the smooth daily operations set in place.  Some upstart - which you trusted and put in a trusted position - comes and wants to disrupt everything and starts a little group because he now has superior insight and becomes rebellious.  (Satan did the same thing to Jehovah because Jehovah is mild tempered and kind).  I think those put in place of responsibility would be hurt and shocked but in the end would guard the heritage of Jehovah -  put this first.  Would you not? And there will be some who will be taken in by this rebellion - will they not? 
Our history was not clean from the start - we recognize that completely.  And while they Russel and friends fumbled in the dark they accepted teachings from other religions which were in line with scripture.  In their ignorance they were determined to be guided to bring the truth to others. The immortality of the soul was one of the first teachings they rejected and we all know the reason why Russel stopped publishing with his associates and went out on his own to create the watchtower.
It was only after some cleansing of their teachings (Jehovah inspected them - where does that fit in with your dates?) that Jehovah appointed them as the slave.  They will guard the heritage they have received and try to keep the organization clean from anyone who tries to destroy it.
Has everything gone perfect in its management - NO.  Was there injustices - maybe?  But the main focus should be the preaching and the vindication of the true name of god and his promises.
I suspect we will see many more actions by Satan to discredit Jehovah and his organization (run by uneducated, imperfect men) before the final end - and he will use brothers with the spirit of Judas to do this.   If anyone in this circle does not think that we are going to have a terrible time of it - think again.
The forces of Satan is stacking up against us and the world has become a very violent place - and it is escalating. When they finally lash out at us they will be happy to find some soft target to vent all their anger against. 
LAST THOUGHT:  Is there any other Christian organization on earth which is unitedly preaching the good news of the kingdom as indicated in prophecy about the time of the end in Matt 24:14.    The proof is there!  To me it is a miracle!  
There are so many secret organizations with most of the worlds money in their pockets, who want the world to be united in ONE government.  There are many religions who want to rule the world and are prepared to use the sword to obtain it.  There are forces moving in the EU and the UN which is trying to bring in laws to control all people.  When this happens - we will be told to stop preaching.... and our neutrality will also become an issue........ it will be an attack.... but we will see great apostasy before this.  
 
 
 
 

The reason why you cannot accept 539 BCE as the only secular date which is truly verified is because you use mainly Babylonian sources to try to verify the date and their dates are all over the place - not reliable (reigns which are too long and impossible to correlate etc.)
The Persian and Greek sources gets us to the truth.  Please look up when the battle of OPIS took place and between who....?  This took place before Cyrus went right into Babylon.
This will give you a good idea why 537 BCE is correct for the return of the Jews to Jerusalem - which in turn proves that 607 BCE and 1914 is accurate.
The reason for the 'myopia' is an inability to accept that the slave (very imperfect and uneducated though they may be) may just have made a big mistake and accidentally got it RIGHT - because Jehovah was guiding them. The problems came when someone's ego got the better of them and they abused their power and were removed.... 
All the knowledge in the world cannot fight against the knowledge of Jehovah... and he can use his spirit to assist who he wants?  When a "mistake" (some people used their influence to say it is a mistake) turns out to be spot on later - as more historical facts were opened up - is it not quite revealing?  Don't you agree? 
Even if you feel you have "special insight" this does not mean that you have.   The ability to show the 'fruits' is cooperation, to subject your free will to Jehovah and help with the preaching work - become a slave of Jehovah and help the rest of his "slave".  (A slave has no personal power but has to do as he is told - the preaching).  Personally I would refuse to go out with someone who does not accept that Jehovah is guiding his people or "recognize" the 'slave' because we have to "help" our brothers with the commission they were given.
ANOTHER important question: How would you run such a large organization as ours when you have no special business training and you are responsible for the management and written content which goes out into the entire world; massive operations on a large scale and all on donations.....You have to try to manage other problems in congregations too - on top of millions of laws in every different country etc etc.  Did they fail in some aspects or re-act instead of being pro-active?  Of course they did.  CEOs do not even get it right...
CEOs which earn literally millions of dollars per year do not get it right and move around from company to company (we know what is going on in the banking industry and many Fortune 500 companies - don't we?)  and.......they do not have to cope with Satan's focus on them, trying to undermine the smooth daily operations set in place.  Some upstart - which you trusted and put in a trusted position - comes and wants to disrupt everything and starts a little group because he now has superior insight and becomes rebellious.  (Satan did the same thing to Jehovah because Jehovah is mild tempered and kind).  I think those put in place of responsibility would be hurt and shocked but in the end would guard the heritage of Jehovah -  put this first.  Would you not? And there will be some who will be taken in by this rebellion - will they not? 
Our history was not clean from the start - we recognize that completely.  And while they Russel and friends fumbled in the dark they accepted teachings from other religions which were in line with scripture.  In their ignorance they were determined to be guided to bring the truth to others. The immortality of the soul was one of the first teachings they rejected and we all know the reason why Russel stopped publishing with his associates and went out on his own to create the watchtower.
It was only after some cleansing of their teachings (Jehovah inspected them - where does that fit in with your dates?) that Jehovah appointed them as the slave.  They will guard the heritage they have received and try to keep the organization clean from anyone who tries to destroy it.
Has everything gone perfect in its management - NO.  Was there injustices - maybe?  But the main focus should be the preaching and the vindication of the true name of god and his promises.
I suspect we will see many more actions by Satan to discredit Jehovah and his organization (run by uneducated, imperfect men) before the final end - and he will use brothers with the spirit of Judas to do this.   If anyone in this circle does not think that we are going to have a terrible time of it - think again.
The forces of Satan is stacking up against us and the world has become a very violent place - and it is escalating. When they finally lash out at us they will be happy to find some soft target to vent all their anger against. 
LAST THOUGHT:  Is there any other Christian organization on earth which is unitedly preaching the good news of the kingdom as indicated in prophecy about the time of the end in Matt 24:14.    The proof is there!  To me it is a miracle!  
There are so many secret organizations with most of the worlds money in their pockets, who want the world to be united in ONE government.  There are many religions who want to rule the world and are prepared to use the sword to obtain it.  There are forces moving in the EU and the UN which is trying to bring in laws to control all people.  When this happens - we will be told to stop preaching.... and our neutrality will also become an issue........ it will be an attack.... but we will see great apostasy before this.  
 
 
 
 

The reason why you cannot accept 539 BCE as the only secular date which is truly verified is because you use mainly Babylonian sources to try to verify the date and their dates are all over the place - not reliable (reigns which are too long and impossible to correlate etc.)
The Persian and Greek sources gets us to the truth.  Please look up when the battle of OPIS took place and between who....?  This took place before Cyrus went right into Babylon.
This will give you a good idea why 537 BCE is correct for the return of the Jews to Jerusalem - which in turn proves that 607 BCE and 1914 is accurate.
The reason for the 'myopia' is an inability to accept that the slave (very imperfect and uneducated though they may be) may just have made a big mistake and accidentally got it RIGHT - because Jehovah was guiding them. The problems came when someone's ego got the better of them and they abused their power and were removed.... 
All the knowledge in the world cannot fight against the knowledge of Jehovah... and he can use his spirit to assist who he wants?  When a "mistake" (some people used their influence to say it is a mistake) turns out to be spot on later - as more historical facts were opened up - is it not quite revealing?  Don't you agree? 
Even if you feel you have "special insight" this does not mean that you have.   The ability to show the 'fruits' is cooperation, to subject your free will to Jehovah and help with the preaching work - become a slave of Jehovah and help the rest of his "slave".  (A slave has no personal power but has to do as he is told - the preaching).  Personally I would refuse to go out with someone who does not accept that Jehovah is guiding his people or "recognize" the 'slave' because we have to "help" our brothers with the commission they were given.
ANOTHER important question: How would you run such a large organization as ours when you have no special business training and you are responsible for the management and written content which goes out into the entire world; massive operations on a large scale and all on donations.....You have to try to manage other problems in congregations too - on top of millions of laws in every different country etc etc.  Did they fail in some aspects or re-act instead of being pro-active?  Of course they did.  CEOs do not even get it right...
CEOs which earn literally millions of dollars per year do not get it right and move around from company to company (we know what is going on in the banking industry and many Fortune 500 companies - don't we?)  and.......they do not have to cope with Satan's focus on them, trying to undermine the smooth daily operations set in place.  Some upstart - which you trusted and put in a trusted position - comes and wants to disrupt everything and starts a little group because he now has superior insight and becomes rebellious.  (Satan did the same thing to Jehovah because Jehovah is mild tempered and kind).  I think those put in place of responsibility would be hurt and shocked but in the end would guard the heritage of Jehovah -  put this first.  Would you not? And there will be some who will be taken in by this rebellion - will they not? 
Our history was not clean from the start - we recognize that completely.  And while they Russel and friends fumbled in the dark they accepted teachings from other religions which were in line with scripture.  In their ignorance they were determined to be guided to bring the truth to others. The immortality of the soul was one of the first teachings they rejected and we all know the reason why Russel stopped publishing with his associates and went out on his own to create the watchtower.
It was only after some cleansing of their teachings (Jehovah inspected them - where does that fit in with your dates?) that Jehovah appointed them as the slave.  They will guard the heritage they have received and try to keep the organization clean from anyone who tries to destroy it.
Has everything gone perfect in its management - NO.  Was there injustices - maybe?  But the main focus should be the preaching and the vindication of the true name of god and his promises.
I suspect we will see many more actions by Satan to discredit Jehovah and his organization (run by uneducated, imperfect men) before the final end - and he will use brothers with the spirit of Judas to do this.   If anyone in this circle does not think that we are going to have a terrible time of it - think again.
The forces of Satan is stacking up against us and the world has become a very violent place - and it is escalating. When they finally lash out at us they will be happy to find some soft target to vent all their anger against. 
LAST THOUGHT:  Is there any other Christian organization on earth which is unitedly preaching the good news of the kingdom as indicated in prophecy about the time of the end in Matt 24:14.    The proof is there!  To me it is a miracle!  
There are so many secret organizations with most of the worlds money in their pockets, who want the world to be united in ONE government.  There are many religions who want to rule the world and are prepared to use the sword to obtain it.  There are forces moving in the EU and the UN which is trying to bring in laws to control all people.  When this happens - we will be told to stop preaching.... and our neutrality will also become an issue........ it will be an attack.... but we will see great apostasy before this.  
 
 
 
 

Sometimes we have to clean out the puss before a wound can heal.  Cleaning the wound is painful..... but the results are so much better!  Thanks M'dear!   

Sometimes we have to clean out the puss before a wound can heal.  Cleaning the wound is painful..... but the results are so much better!  Thanks M'dear!   

Just would like to mention:  
"The Soncino Press also published the Soncino Talmud (1935–1952), the Soncino Midrash Rabbah and the Soncino Zohar (1934) all of which were translations of the Talmud, Midrash Rabbah, and Zohar, respectively. Another publication is the Soncino Haggadah, a translation and commentary on the Haggadah by Cecil Roth."
 
While it is good to look at Josephus and other historians when one looks at Jewish tradition - be very careful of the Talmud, Kabbalah and Zohar and people who associate these rabbinical writings with the Torah (books of Moses).
Just type into Google "Talmud and Jesus" and you will get the shock of your life.  The Kabbalah and Zohar in my mind is pure spiritism.
Today the Talmud is called the 'holy book' and the kabbalah the most holy book. Most Rabbis study the kabbalah.   I understand why the Quran is so hateful to all non-believers because the Jews were believing in the 'oral tradition' which Jesusrejected. These were first written down in the Mishnah and further in the Talmud which has commentaries on the commentaries. Muhammad stole his ideas from these extreme laws.
After the temple was destroyed the Jews had no temple to worship at.  The Rabbis devised a system of traditions, rituals and superiority teachings which keep the Jewish nation separate from all other nations.  Ever tried to talk to a Jew about the Truth? You will see how quickly you are rebuffed.  The Muslims have a similar system whereby the leaders have total control over the people and their word is like the word of God.
Be careful of the mindset of these books!  That is all I have to say.... 

Apologies if I sounded sexist..... but for a woman in a man's world I saw the male ego in action too often. So I learnt to distinguish its manifestations very quickly..... having the word of Jehovah to measure it by....
After working as a reporter for many years I worked in PR and publicity for many years.  1) For an umbrella organization which managed 9 museums: Board meetings and PHDs doing research in various fields.  I saw the infighting, the egos and the academic "integrity" first hand. So this is why I am skeptical of academics ..... just as our dear friend is skeptical about the "slave." History is always written by the victors - remember that.  After the infighting ends - it is the view of the victors that are presented....
2) After this I worked for an umbrella organization which managed 15 technical universities.   Learnt a tremendous amount there and could put my hands on rare books from the library.
So what has this to do with our thread?  The male ego-itis  (females also have this sickness but is displays in other ways)  unexpectedly rears its ugly head ... as I said earlier.  I have seen individual brothers display this quality (not often - but it is often those with high secular positions/education who have the boardroom skills to play good servers in meetings) because they are still imperfect human beings. It will not be stamped out completely until the end of 1000 years... and all too often witnesses still respect people too much who have worldly skills instead of the humble spiritual brothers . People are people..... and hopefully they gradually put on the new personality and learn to distinguish godly qualities. 
I can see a good dose of male - ego-itis and OCD here in this thread and the fact that only SECULAR dates are accepted by certain bloggers.... and this takes precedence over the Bible and the slave.
I happen to know the history of Archeology as a science.  It started exactly 200 years ago when Napoleon went into Egypt and the entire world "woke up" to the fact that there are cities under mounds which can prove the Bible correct.  Unfortunately the "science" was not there and for many years they damaged the "basis of the history" by their unscientific methods.  They also made very UNscientific 'assumptions' about dates.  One mistake is the Egyptology dating - which is contested heavily today by "renegade" scientists with the result: they are not allowed on digs in Egypt because there are powers/academics in control that do not allow this. So much for the "science" of it.
Contrary to assurances that Babylonian chronology is accurate - it is NOT.  Babylonian chronology has to fit in with Pharaoh Necho's dates among others - so this is corroborated (they know the dynasty lines and years of rule) but the dates fit in with Egyptology........ this is why the dates do not give a full 70 year period for the exiled Jews. (the bible says 70 years).  
However! The ONE secular date which is scientifically agreed upon by most scholars is the date of the announcement for the return of the Jews from Babylon (give a year) as discussed above.
To my mind - if you are a good scientist and you are a good Biblical scholar - you would adjust all Biblical dates according to THIS date because it is the MOST accurate ancient secular date.... and this is what the organization has done!   So - to continually go back to the maze of OTHER secular dates and the slave's "incompetence" ? .......this is someone who does not accept the slave and does not really want to adjust their thinking and accept there is dodgy secular evidence out there.  
If we accept the secular date of 538 BCE (give one or two years for them getting ready and travel to return to Jerusalem) then the 70th year before this falls on 607 BCE and also gives one 1914 - which is proved by undeniable evidence on the ground.  
If you want to put your faith in secular dates and in their processes and in this action deny the invisible KINGdom establishment in 1914 - do so.  The analysis of 'words' to try to fit another theory is interesting - but it is merely a major hurricane in a tea-cup- because it has not convincing at all! .... especially because the real evidence is already on ground zero!
 
 
 

Just would like to mention:  
"The Soncino Press also published the Soncino Talmud (1935–1952), the Soncino Midrash Rabbah and the Soncino Zohar (1934) all of which were translations of the Talmud, Midrash Rabbah, and Zohar, respectively. Another publication is the Soncino Haggadah, a translation and commentary on the Haggadah by Cecil Roth."
 
While it is good to look at Josephus and other historians when one looks at Jewish tradition - be very careful of the Talmud, Kabbalah and Zohar and people who associate these rabbinical writings with the Torah (books of Moses).
Just type into Google "Talmud and Jesus" and you will get the shock of your life.  The Kabbalah and Zohar in my mind is pure spiritism.
Today the Talmud is called the 'holy book' and the kabbalah the most holy book. Most Rabbis study the kabbalah.   I understand why the Quran is so hateful to all non-believers because the Jews were believing in the 'oral tradition' which Jesusrejected. These were first written down in the Mishnah and further in the Talmud which has commentaries on the commentaries. Muhammad stole his ideas from these extreme laws.
After the temple was destroyed the Jews had no temple to worship at.  The Rabbis devised a system of traditions, rituals and superiority teachings which keep the Jewish nation separate from all other nations.  Ever tried to talk to a Jew about the Truth? You will see how quickly you are rebuffed.  The Muslims have a similar system whereby the leaders have total control over the people and their word is like the word of God.
Be careful of the mindset of these books!  That is all I have to say.... 

Apologies if I sounded sexist..... but for a woman in a man's world I saw the male ego in action too often. So I learnt to distinguish its manifestations very quickly..... having the word of Jehovah to measure it by....
After working as a reporter for many years I worked in PR and publicity for many years.  1) For an umbrella organization which managed 9 museums: Board meetings and PHDs doing research in various fields.  I saw the infighting, the egos and the academic "integrity" first hand. So this is why I am skeptical of academics ..... just as our dear friend is skeptical about the "slave." History is always written by the victors - remember that.  After the infighting ends - it is the view of the victors that are presented....
2) After this I worked for an umbrella organization which managed 15 technical universities.   Learnt a tremendous amount there and could put my hands on rare books from the library.
So what has this to do with our thread?  The male ego-itis  (females also have this sickness but is displays in other ways)  unexpectedly rears its ugly head ... as I said earlier.  I have seen individual brothers display this quality (not often - but it is often those with high secular positions/education who have the boardroom skills to play good servers in meetings) because they are still imperfect human beings. It will not be stamped out completely until the end of 1000 years... and all too often witnesses still respect people too much who have worldly skills instead of the humble spiritual brothers . People are people..... and hopefully they gradually put on the new personality and learn to distinguish godly qualities. 
I can see a good dose of male - ego-itis and OCD here in this thread and the fact that only SECULAR dates are accepted by certain bloggers.... and this takes precedence over the Bible and the slave.
I happen to know the history of Archeology as a science.  It started exactly 200 years ago when Napoleon went into Egypt and the entire world "woke up" to the fact that there are cities under mounds which can prove the Bible correct.  Unfortunately the "science" was not there and for many years they damaged the "basis of the history" by their unscientific methods.  They also made very UNscientific 'assumptions' about dates.  One mistake is the Egyptology dating - which is contested heavily today by "renegade" scientists with the result: they are not allowed on digs in Egypt because there are powers/academics in control that do not allow this. So much for the "science" of it.
Contrary to assurances that Babylonian chronology is accurate - it is NOT.  Babylonian chronology has to fit in with Pharaoh Necho's dates among others - so this is corroborated (they know the dynasty lines and years of rule) but the dates fit in with Egyptology........ this is why the dates do not give a full 70 year period for the exiled Jews. (the bible says 70 years).  
However! The ONE secular date which is scientifically agreed upon by most scholars is the date of the announcement for the return of the Jews from Babylon (give a year) as discussed above.
To my mind - if you are a good scientist and you are a good Biblical scholar - you would adjust all Biblical dates according to THIS date because it is the MOST accurate ancient secular date.... and this is what the organization has done!   So - to continually go back to the maze of OTHER secular dates and the slave's "incompetence" ? .......this is someone who does not accept the slave and does not really want to adjust their thinking and accept there is dodgy secular evidence out there.  
If we accept the secular date of 538 BCE (give one or two years for them getting ready and travel to return to Jerusalem) then the 70th year before this falls on 607 BCE and also gives one 1914 - which is proved by undeniable evidence on the ground.  
If you want to put your faith in secular dates and in their processes and in this action deny the invisible KINGdom establishment in 1914 - do so.  The analysis of 'words' to try to fit another theory is interesting - but it is merely a major hurricane in a tea-cup- because it has not convincing at all! .... especially because the real evidence is already on ground zero!
 
 
 

via TheWorldNewsOrgWorld News

When I was a boy, my uncle had a farm that had many chickens, but only ONE Rooster.
The Rooster was old, and not "performing his Roosterfull duties", so he bought a YOUNGER Rooster and put it in the barnyard.
It was immediately challenged by the Old Rooster and they both  agreed to race around the barn three times to see who would be the "Head Rooster".
The third time they were chasing each other around the barn, my uncle came out with his shotgun, and shot the New Rooster,  exclaiming ...
"That's the third Homo Rooster I have had this month!"