Melinda Mills

After having spent twenty five and more years discussing things like this with people who have strong ideas about such things ... but like myself, NOT HAVING THE SLIGHTEST CLUE, I have given up even caring about such things.
Things ARE WHAT THEY ARE .... and,
THEY ARE NOT WHAT THEY ARE NOT
... and a million word exposition  by the clueless ... myself included ... will not change that.
Do the best you can ... chill out ... have a beer ...  relax ... take more naps.  Pay more attention to your children while you still can.
Most "pangs of distress", I have found ... are self inflicted.
About the OTHER "pangs of distress" ... soon ... perhaps too soon ... we will all know.
I will probably be worse if you built your home on the side of an active volcano, or you live close to Yellowstone Park.

Nice points from both of you. 
For my son I had an intuitive feeling that something was about to happen but no significant signs, e.g. broken amniotic sac or contractions.   Since I was tired only, I checked myself in  just before sunset and had the baby just after midnight , although the nurse told me I was not in labour.  Just to show that sometimes one can't go by the normal signs. Still shows you have to be always ready, as you are expectant.

"the contractions in the uterus start sometime near the start of the final month" https://baby-pedia.com
1 Thess. 5:2, 3 appears to be applying a pregnancy metaphor differently to the way Jesus did at , for example Matt.24:8.
I have only been present for 5 pregnancies and births, but the mother tells me that while the contractions certainly increased in intensity quite close to the delivery, they started much earlier in the final month, though at different times for each child. (not to be confused of course with the Braxton Hicks variety). Others indicate that these pangs of distress can indeed occur weeks before the birth, or days before. The difference seems to add weight to the metaphor.
From what I can glean then, both are true to life descriptions of the occurence of labor contractions. Jesus uses the aspect of their heralding the start of a period or stage leading to an inevitable conclusion. Paul uses the suddeness of their occurence to relate to the manner in which a prophesied event takes place.
In answer to @JWInsider who posted whilst I was writing, I would suggest that trying too hard see some sort of specific time element as having any significance here would be a mistake. ?

Nice points from both of you. 
For my son I had an intuitive feeling that something was about to happen but no significant signs, e.g. broken amniotic sac or contractions.   Since I was tired only, I checked myself in  just before sunset and had the baby just after midnight , although the nurse told me I was not in labour.  Just to show that sometimes one can't go by the normal signs. Still shows you have to be always ready, as you are expectant.

"Whenever it is that they are saying: ‘Peace and security!’ then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape.” (1 Thess. 5:2, 3) 
"A woman is pregnant for 9 months, but pangs of distress or contractions usually start occurring during the last 3 months."  The scripture above is more true to life.
Pangs of distress usually come instantly and unexpectedly at the end of the last trimester - a day or two  before or a few hours before. 
The metaphor in Matthew 24:8 is still fitting as the conditions were distressful ever since the beginning of the last days since 1914. Distressing things would be happening concomitantly with happy things like celebrations, etc. We had a joyous, sumptuous wedding last weekend but we also had a shooting, an ongoing volcanic eruption, a  plane crash around the same time.

I don't question that Revelation 17 has an important meaning for us.
Yes. We should always pay attention to our teaching. 1 Tim 4:16: "Pay close attention to your life and to your teaching. Persevere in these things, for by so doing you will save both yourself and those who hear you." [Berean]
If this Watchtower eschatological scenario could be absolutely known for sure to be correct then I would think that some hints could be discerned from political and ideological developments. Of course, I trust that Jesus' words preclude any human from knowing absolutely what the future scenario might look like. However, when the Bible says that God puts the idea in their hearts it likely means (as the Watchtower teaches) that Jehovah allows these entities to go ahead with intentions that already existed in some form. Therefore, such a future scenario could very well be discernible to some extent in advance. To the extent that anyone might feel it useful to look for such hints as a way of testing the validity of the teaching then there is a legitimate reason to "test the spirits." [1 John 4:1]. But I would think there are much more basic and important Bible principles to test against before we can get to that point.  
I think Jesus told us why. He made it clear that the very topic of the end and the natural desire to get advance information about when it would occur would result in much confusion and persons who would end up misleading others, either on purpose or just human nature. So Jesus made it clear that there would be a lot of things happening that people would latch onto in order to claim that they KNEW more about the closeness of the end. So Jesus made it clear that wars would continue to happen, but that they shouldn't get all excited and think this was a sign that the end must be close. Jesus made the same point about earthquakes that might shake someone from their reason and make them think the due time had approached. Or pestilence, famine, persecution. All these things would go on happening, but there was no reason to become inordinately excited. In fact, Jesus added that during the period leading up to the final end [the synteleia/parousia] people would be marrying and being given in marriage, people would be eating and drinking, and the parousia would come upon most of them as if without any warning. In other words, these people would be crying out 'there is peace and security' before sudden destruction came upon them. Peter adds that scoffers could even say 'Where is this promised parousia [that will shine brightly like lightning from one part of the heavens all the way across to the other]? Things are still going on just as they always have.
So, yes, Jesus gave a lot of details about the prophecy related to the end times, but many of those details were to show that there would be NO specific details that could be seen as an advance sign of the end, but that Christians should remain active and endure patiently in spite of the lack of signs. But when the end finally came, THEN there would be an unmistakable sign that this parousia was upon us suddenly like bright visible lightning.

I hate when people do this.
Ford had just assumed the presidency and pardoned Nixon. At a NYC District Convention the next day, the speaker held aloft the NYDaily headlines - "Peace and Security!" and said: "Have you seen this headline??!!!"
It was irresistable. I would have done it, too.

Had to caution a few brothers that were sending out thoughts on Facebook and a few places on the matter of looking for God's intervention in human affairs "whenever it is that they are saying "Peace and security!" around the time (a few weeks ago)  America seemed to be making progress in securing peace between North Korea and the West. I reminded them about Jesus' words at  Matthew 24:42-44, as follows:
"(Matthew 24:42-44) Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 “But know one thing: If the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 On this account, you too prove yourselves ready, because the Son of man is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it."
 At the transfiguration Jehovah told Jesus' disciples to "Listen to him".   These sayings are from the same source, Jehovah, but we have to be sober and not run off with one but not weighing the other.  We know the season we are in, but we will not be able to work out the precise period of the end. No matter what we see now, the end is going to take us by surprise.  We should obey Jesus and prove ourselves ready. No one knows when a thief plans to come.  Jesus stated that it was at an hour that "you do not think to be it", referring to his disciples. So let us to take note but be modest, sober and most of all, ready.  So the question above is really timely.

Discuss the question from the title of the topic? Now that's a novel idea. ?
It is a reasonable solution to see the 10-horns and the wild beast as either representing, or some part of the dominant world power at the time of the great tribulation, the fall of Babylon the Great, Armageddon, etc. And it is a reasonable assumption to see the prostitute as false religion. And it seems that God puts a thought into the heart of the ten horns and the heart of the wild beast to give their kingdom to this wild beast until some end predetermined by the God's words will have been accomplished.
Obviously. But is it the same as "biting the hand that feeds us" to discuss whether our current explanation of this chapter is reasonable? Is our end-time-scenario too sacrosanct to question in any way. Or is perhaps now the best opportune time to consider where our loyalties will lie if things seem NOT to be working out as expected? Or is perhaps now the best opportune time to consider the meaning of Jesus words about not being able to work out the closeness of the time of the end if things DO INDEED seem to be working out as expected?
As several people already know, I come at this issue from the perspective that Jesus warned us against trying to look at signs of the times to divine the closeness of the end. It will come as a "thief in the night." Some of us will answer, but we won't be surprised, or in the dark, as someone who is awake and prepared for the thief. That's true, of course, but not because we will be able to figure out the time or season in which the thief will appear. Not because we will be watching for some entity to call out "peace and security." It's because we as Christians will be both patient and ready at all times because we are always looking out that our motivations are pure. Peter says we stay ready by watching ourselves and the type of person we ought to be, and clarifies the motivations behind all our activity in 2 Peter 1:5-8:
5 For this very reason, put forth all earnest effort+ to supply to your faith virtue,+ to your virtue knowledge,+ 6 to your knowledge self-control, to your self-control+ endurance, to your endurance godly devotion,+ 7 to your godly devotion brotherly affection, to your brotherly affection love.+ 8 For if these things exist in you and overflow, they will prevent you from being either inactive or unfruitful*+ regarding the accurate knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. There have always been those persons who think they are doing a favor to fellow Witnesses, or perhaps also highlighting their own faith in the predicted scenario by watching out for any mention of "peace and security" by a Pope, a world leader, or a UN representative. The initial post in this topic goes to a lot of trouble to try to read between the lines for items coming from the UN that somehow indicate that "they" could turn against and attack religion at any time. I think this is unhealthy and unchristian for several reasons. But I've already gone into detail about this aspect in other posts in the past.
This doesn't mean the scenario is impossible, only that Jesus said it was wrong to look for such scenarios as a way to anticipate the closeness of the end or to try to predict the timing his parousia. They might create some fervor and anticipation about the closeness of the end, but they will produce an unchristian motivation.
And, as I've also said, it would not be honest for me to discuss the question at hand without also mentioning that I think the whole scenario should be questioned. And, as I've also said, I think as Christians we are under an obligation to question such scenarios as to whether they are Biblical or even useful.

Which scenario do you refer to here as needing to be questioned?
the scriptural picture as portrayed in Rev. 17? the interpreted understanding and application that Jehovah's Witnesses currently hold in connection with Rev.17? the suggestion that UN preparation for an attack on religion could be discerned from current political and ideological developments? And by extension, where we are in the stream of time relative to the start of the great tribulation?  
This is quite right as the several uses of the thief and unknown hour metaphors in Scripture confirm.
However, why do you think that Jesus outlined detailed events in prophecy relating to end times?
 

"It is precisely what Jesus was referring to when when he said that we should look to specific persons as our leaders or teachers."  You may wish to review this sentence in the context of what you are speaking about.
 

Well one reason would be the scrripture at Dan. 10:20-21 (You quoted partially.) The angel speaking here mentions the princes of Persia and Greece in the same breath as Michael "your prince". (the prince mentioned at Dan. 12:1). The context itself indicates to me that these "princes" are all spirit creatures and the angel speaking these words provides an insight on what is going on "behind the scenes" as it were.  Isn't that reasonable? 

You know... I am just sitting here .... minding my own business ... when on my 3rd monitor I see some guy in  three piece suit run by, and with his hair on fire, crying "heretic! Heretic! HERETIC!" !!
 

I attempted above to only address the actual point of difference, as I see it, between your view and my view of the GB.  To be fair, I should probably acknowledge that you appear to be trying to make some additional specific points in your post, but there was nothing there that seemed very appropriate to comment on, because most of what you said just simply doesn't apply or I have always been in full agreement with it. The intent of some of your post wasn't clear to me. So perhaps if I try to respond to what I think you meant, you will be able to clarify further if you can see I'm not understanding you correctly.
From what I can tell, your instant reaction to call me and my views heretical and your other attempts at defamation have become a kind of reflex for you. You apparently don't read what I am saying before quickly misunderstanding words that you don't like.
In this case, I think the primary word you didn't like was "influence." You didn't like that I had said used the term "influence . . . emanated from the Governing Body" in the following question that I had asked:
You might not have understood that I meant this in a very positive way. I mean that the Governing Body has positively influenced Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide with proper guidance and teachings. Yes, I know I have not held back from discussing non-Biblical influences in the past, too, but the question above focused only on the positive influences. It could be restated as follows:
Is it possible that (through all the various publications, practices, encouragement of good habits, assigned Bible reading/discussion, reviewing of important Bible topics, etc.) that the Governing Body has already produced enough good influence on congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses so that they are readily capable of standing on their own in the event of severe persecution that would cut us off from communication with the Governing Body? I hoped the question was rhetorical, because it seems obvious that congregational elders and servants should already be trusted to help guide and teach a congregation in such circumstances. We already know there have been exceptional cases and extreme circumstances in the recent modern history of Jehovah's Witnesses where communication has been cut off and the Witness work and congregational matters went on without any major problems. And as I already stated in the post, we are reminded that we should be ready for such extreme circumstances.
I also note that you might have misunderstood my use of the word "past." It didn't refer to Russell, Rutherford, and past GB "influences." It refers to the pattern of instruction already received, with good habits learned over the years. Many elders and servants had no ability to manage even a small project, yet past assignments over the years have taught many brothers and sisters to rise to the occasion to manage complex tasks. (Assembly organization, budgets, donations, paperwork, building halls, scheduling assignments.)
I think you took some offense to the fact that I mentioned influence of the GB as if it superseded the influence of Jehovah, Jesus, the Bible, and the holy spirit. That wasn't the intent. For some individuals, unfortunately, I think it does supersede all these entities. But that wasn't the topic here. I meant it only as a guide for understanding proper spiritual influence.
This is where I figured you must have misunderstood GB influence. I meant it, just as you said: "a GUIDE to the teachings of Christ" not a replacement for Scripture. I know where you are coming from, so I don't blame you for thinking I was here referring to areas where I believe the Bible gives us a clear reason to disagree. But in this context I was referring to the many areas where we can positively agree.

Almost 2000 viewers, but no comment??

When you do not know the answers, sometimes it is best to let those who pretend to know, comment.

Thanks Melinda. ? I left out a fairly important three-letter word: NOT. Edited it above to correct it.

"It is precisely what Jesus was referring to when when he said that we should look to specific persons as our leaders or teachers."  You may wish to review this sentence in the context of what you are speaking about.
 

"It is precisely what Jesus was referring to when when he said that we should look to specific persons as our leaders or teachers."  You may wish to review this sentence in the context of what you are speaking about.
 

I suspect more information  will come out over time ........ perhaps the news articles were inaccurate, incomplete, or something else unknowable..... for now.

https://www.jw.org/en/news/jw/region/global/love-in-action-hurricane-irma-maria-relief-work/
Nice video report on JW.org website.
Thanks for emailing me about this.
 
 

These are the words of the surviving father???   
Who else thinks this is SICK way of thinking much less speaking publicly.
Are Jehovah's Witnesses taught to think that a father has this right? Is it their studies of patriarchal times affecting his thoughts that his father in law somehow "OWNED" these women and children?
He needs mental health treatment immediately himself.

Sorry, but the words he spoke are mentally flawed. His reaction and speech betray who he is. It is difficult to imagine a JW ever speaking this way. But it doesn't mean it can't happen, and it may happen more often than we would like to admit. In recent years, many things are coming into the public eye, and they humble us to have to face them. None of us are saints in the perfect sense, but these things happen and I wonder if they will come to the fore more and more in the following months. 
There are a number of things wrong with the crime scene that police seem to have just accepted at face value. The last few years feel like a bad dream, many logically solvable problems seem to have taken drastically odd directions. Nowadays most news is hard to trust, almost anything can be faked now, sometimes with just a home pc. The world is at an empass I think...

That  are  YOUR  words,  @Matthew9969   -  holding  hands  during  a  public  prayer!    Thats  only  for  married  couples  or  families.  Not  holding  hands  in  the  Kingdom  Hall !   I  saw  JW - friends,  GOING  hand  in  hand....  Also, everyone  has  another  mature  level.  -   Many  JW  have  their  own  special  rules...  and  we  not  have  to  judge !
Thats  all  I've  to  say  ~~~~~~~~

Romans 6:7 "For the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin."
The use of a Kingdom Hall for a funeral would depend on circumstance so there isn't a blanket rule.