Witness

22 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I see a Facebook page, and three or four bitter diatribes per day at those who you accuse of upstaging you and your cohorts.

So, you're checking in 3-4 times a day?  What are you even doing there? You're quite the liar, Tom.  3-4 "diatribes" per day?  I'm glad if I get anything posted there once a week.  Surely you remember who calls apostates "despicable", don't you? 

Upstaging?  Your wicked slave has upstaged all anointed in the organization and you don't see it.  Your elder body has upstaged the anointed priesthood, and you don't see it.  

14 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Do I know that he is anointed? No, of course not. But I don’t know that of anyone, least of all you, who so immodestly terms yourself a “genuine anointed.”

Could you please tell me when I have elaborated on my anointing other than when you grilled me about it?  Can you target any time when I have exalted myself above my brothers and sisters in the organization?  Please, you've done this before and found that you had to take back your words.  

16 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

At least with him, I can see many decades of full-time service, making it unlikely, after such sacred service, that he would lie.

That means nothing.  Jesus told us how to detect an anointed sent by him.  Matt 7:15-19; John 15:15

Their "fruit"/teachings are good, never bad...and all of their teachings remain, never discarded.  

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It is a phrase completely of your own devising.

To defend @4Jah2me's statement about True Anointed ones, I personally don’t believe every man on the GB are genuinely anointed.

Why don’t you spend some time, if you haven’t already, and listen to Stephen Lett’s wisdom on his video about anointing.  He has no clue what an anointing is. And I believe there are a few more on that body just like him

But, after listening to his speech of lies, you might (or might not) want to read this comment from a genuine anointed one:

Wow, the very first two things he says in the first sentence, are false. No scripture says that you must be water baptized by men, before God can anoint you with his spirit. In fact, Acts10 reads; "44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days." Gentiles were anointed, previous to their water baptism.

 Secondly... Lett states that one must establish oneself as having a faithful course in the eyes of men, previous to their anointing by God. I assume that this "faithful course" is defined by the organization and includes their own standards of behavior (meeting attendance, service hours, proper dress, etc.). Again the scriptures disprove this fallacy. Did Paul establish himself as an exemplary Christian (according to the "watchtower's" criteria), while he traveled from town to town, hunting down and trying to eradicate the sect? Yet while in that spiritual state of mind, Jesus Christ himself chose Paul... not only to be among the 144K, but to be an apostle. Lett's assertions do two things... *insult the power of God to read a heart, and *bestows authority on the organization to interject their own standards into something that is none of their business. They don't get to tell God who He can adopt, and when. Outrageous arrogance!

 There is also no scriptural indication, that the "heavenly calling" is exclusively heavenly, as Lett asserts. For goodness sake... Rev.21:3-4 tells us plainly, that New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven. It states that God's dwelling [his temple made up of the anointed (1Pet.2:5; 1Cor.3:16)] is WITH MANKIND. How can you be an heir of the earth (Gal.3:29; Gen.28:4,13-14), but not be allowed to set foot on it? Lett is locked in a dark closet indeed.

Wow, next, he twists the meaning of 1John2:20. The interlinear Greek makes plain, that in context with verses21 and 27, ...the "knowledge" is a growth in divine truths... Not an awareness that one is anointed. This guy can't open his mouth, without fulfilling Rev.13:11! Wasn't there recently a video about how shameful and taboo it is to inquire about the anointing experience? These guys need to make up their minds.

Great... now I hear him ripping off from things I have written. What's wrong? Are your lamps going out and you need to borrow some oil? So I get Df'd for speaking the truth, but they can take what I got thrown out for, and use it in their talk? Another 12 minutes of video to go. I can't stomach much more. I now have strong personal doubt that Stephen Lett is a genuine anointed.

He makes no mention of the experience of being anointed. While mentioning how powerful God's spirit witness is, he doesn't even touch upon that experience... which he certainly would if he really received it.

The priests and kings in Israel, when anointed, were certainly aware of the event. They could feel the oil being poured upon them. It wasn't something that occurred because they had already been water baptized, or because they were regular in service. The Bible makes clear what the heart feels during an anointing by God's holy spirit... something obviously foreign to Stephen Lett. 

5 hours ago, xero said:

You can always know someone has driven off into the ditch once they leave off preaching the kingdom but instead start rolling their own scrolls and smoking them.

Musing more...

It seems that I need to keep studying this business of conscience and it's relationship to organization and organizational discipline as a requirement for identifying an organization truly fulfilling the commission of making disciples and teaching them to observe (OBEY).

Seems like the word "OBEY" is a four letter word to those perishing.

My arguments need to be short, scriptural and the illustrations, emotionally evocative.

I also need a list of organizational "conversation stoppers" and ways to defuse these obstacles.

***Again...just thinking aloud

 

“Obey those who [a]rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you. “Heb 13:17

[a]rule – “lead”. 

This scripture is a fallback for the organization to expect obedience to the GB and elders.  The apostles led the newly anointed ones especially, in truth.  The point of this leading was to direct them to Jesus Christ.  This, is how they were making disciples for Jesus and the Father.  It had nothing to do with earthly organizational arrangements, and leading people to the organization.  Jesus knew the last remnant of anointed would face such a delusion. He stated to these disciples who were desiring to be greater than another:

“The kings of nations have power over their people, and those in authority call themselves friends of the people. 26 But you’re not going to be that way! Rather, the greatest among you must be like the youngest, and your leader must be like a servant. 27 Who’s the greatest, the person who sits at the table or the servant? Isn’t it really the person who sits at the table? But I’m among you as a servant.”  Luke 22:25-27

Elders, are the “kings” of the nations, as they “represent the royal priesthood of "kings"”, which in reality means they have usurped the dignity of this priesthood. (2 Thess 2:3,4) “Those in authority” over these “kings”, is the GB – “friends of the people”/”benefactors” - who volunteer their time for the 'greater good'.  This is organizational arrangement, but Jesus condemns it.

How powerful, how much impact do Jesus’ words have, against those of men who “rule” and wield discipline under such an arrangement?  Jesus’ words have no impact.  JWs see the elders, the GB, their great accomplishments, and it is to them that obedience and praise is given. 

Anthony Morris: 

“When that direction comes out to Branch committee members, or when it comes out to the congregations; IF you want Jehovah’s blessing on you as an individual or family, certainly as an elder or congregation, it’d be best to ask Jehovah to help you understand it, but obey the decision.”

He continues, “This is a theocracy ruled by God, not a collection of man-made decisions. This is governed from heaven.”

There is no way that God would sanction such actions of men who fabricate their own “theocracy”,  and who admit they are not inspired and never have been. We don’t obey decision that have nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus Christ.  Are the Branch Committee Members inspired where these decrees originate?  Morris was putting his fist down to preserve his dominance over everyone, totally contrary to what Jesus expects of those whom HE sends.  Morris was enforcing “man-made” organizational protocol, with the threat that God will not bless a JW if these various organizational decisions are not followed. 

 Jesus’ teachings, and the teachings of the apostles, - the foundation of the spiritual Temple -  reflected Truth, not prominence of men, and certainly not obedience to a shifting doctrine newly formed, and then overhauled, as if such shifting of false truth is ever received from the Father and Jesus Christ.  James 1:17

 This foundation of Truth that we already have in God’s word, is our touchstone.  If what men say contradicts that touchstone, we are to walk away from them.  Doing this, displays our obedience to Jesus Christ.  

"The man of sin will come with the power of Satan. He will use every kind of power, including miraculous and wonderful signs. But they will be lies. 10 He will use everything that God disapproves of to deceive those who are dying, those who refused to love the truth that would save them. 11 That’s why God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe a lie. 12 Then everyone who did not believe the truth, but was delighted with what God disapproves of, will be condemned."  2 Thess 2:9-12

4 hours ago, Witness said:

and imagine that what they are doing there has anything to do with preaching the good news of God's Kingdom to the remotest part of the earth.

They are preaching the good news of the redemption and  restoration of "Jacob"/"Israel", in the same manner that JWs are preaching presently.  I doubt the GB will now say, stay away from the internet -  from social forums - when they have made the choice to reach the remotest parts of the earth, via internet.  

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed in the whole inhabited earth (God's "land" - Ps 132:7; Isa 66:1; 1 Cor 3:9)   for a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come."  Matt 24:14

"When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes."  Matt 10:23

Not the nation of Israel, but the spiritual nation of "Israel" today.  They are, God's "inhabited earth".  (1 Pet 2:5,9,10)

"Leave Babylon, flee from the Chaldeans! Declare with a shout of joy, proclaim this, let it go out to the end of the earth; announce, "The LORD has redeemed his servant Jacob!"  Isa 48:20

Then I heard another voice from heaven say:

“‘Come out of her, my people,’[b] - Jer 51:45
    so that you will not share in her sins,
    so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
5 for her sins are piled up to heaven,
    and God has remembered her crimes.
6 Give back to her as she has given;
    pay her back double for what she has done.
    Pour her a double portion from her own cup.
7 Give her as much torment and grief
    as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
In her heart she boasts,
    ‘I sit enthroned as queen.
I am not a widow;
    I will never mourn.’
8 Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:
    death, mourning and famine.
She will be consumed by fire,
    for mighty is the Lord God who judges her."  Rev 18:4-8

Jer 51:45 - “Come out of her, my people!
    Run for your lives!
    Run from the fierce anger of the Lord."

5 hours ago, xero said:

Witness, no one in their right mind is going to get together with a handful of people online or in someone's garage and imagine that what they are doing there has anything to do with preaching the good news of God's Kingdom to the remotest part of the earth. That requires organization, a world wide organization.

What is meant by Jesus’ words in John 4:21-24?

What mountain will rise and draw people to it, in the last days?  Isa 2:2,3

What “mountain” is destroyed in Zech 4:7-14, when the last “living stone” of the Temple/mountain of God is in place? 

What “mountain” is destroyed in Rev 8:8? It is an established earthly “mountain-like” organization.  I can only think of one organization that calls itself the “mountain-like” “spirit-directed” organization – the one you expect people to submit to.

5 hours ago, xero said:

Hanging out w/a tiny group of people just feels creepy and weird. I'd imagine the next step in that group would be for the cyanide koolaide to come out at some point.

As far as “cyanide” affecting a tiny group of people, this warning was given to God’s saints:

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping."  2 Pet 2:1-3

How is this accomplished?  How can truth, the living waters of Jesus Christ, be brought into disrepute?  (John 7:38)

”See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.  Heb 12:15

Wouldn’t you know... wormwood is a bitter root; and knowing that “stars” are represented by anointed ones, (Gen 26:4; Dan 12:3; Luke 11:33; 2 Pet 1:19; Rev 1:20)…

...who is Wormwood in Rev 8:10,11?  Interestingly, this account of a fallen star being called “Wormwood” is noted in the same chapter as the “mountain” being destroyed.

God allows this or has allowed Satan to deceive, when His people have sinned through idolatry and the acceptance of false teachings.  (Luke 22:39)

“Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts concerning the prophets:

‘Behold, I will feed them with wormwood,
And make them drink the water of gall;
For from the prophets of Jerusalem
Profaneness has gone out into all the land.’ ”  Jer 23:15

What is more important to you, knowing the truth from Jesus Christ, or accepting the discipline administered by men which an organization provides?

Wormwood, False Prophets, Armageddon

22 hours ago, xero said:

4Jah - You're clearly confusing your emotions w/a functioning conscience. Don't burn incense to your inner light. You don't know if the light that in you is darkness or light unless you subject it to the true light of scripture. The true light of scripture makes it clear (unless you reject Hebrews among other books) that God has and uses organization, that he delegates authority to humans in these organizations and that one must be submissive and obedient to those taking the lead. It doesn't say you'll like it. In fact the scriptures suggest the opposite. Discipline isn't fun, but it's useful.

Your job is to determine which organization you are going to be submissive to. You can't go it alone. Not scripturally.

Right.  In this corrupted world, God would choose elements based on the expertise of men, to shed "light" on the scriptures.  Men would organize themselves, choose who would be the leaders and those who must submit to their "expertise" and supposed knowledge of His Word.  

This isn't the organization concept from God, it is submitting oneself to the "world".  Men will then say, 'our organization is the dwelling place of God'.  This is blasphemy.  

Earthly organizations are created mountains.  They come with rules and regulations on how to worship God. These rules are at the whim of men.  If they they are not followed, this mountain can consume the "sheep".  

Jesus referred to two mountains in John 4, where worship was established -  Jerusalem, and the Samaritan temple.  Those mountains were corrupted by corrupt leaders.  God removed His Spirit from Jerusalem when Jesus died. 

There is only one organization that is acceptable to God, and it isn't fabricated by men.  You are misunderstanding the concept of church, congregation, and the Body of Christ.  While you reign over and discipline the anointed in the organization, you have failed to see that they are the dwelling of God - His Temple. (1 Cor 3:16,17)  Can you comprehend  that the Wt has consumed the sheep of Jesus Christ, through a man-made organization?  Rev 13:5-10

You are expecting the members of Jesus' body to be submissive to a discipline created by men.  THEY, the anointed, are the "organization" outlined by God.  Within their heart are the "rules and regulations" that God put there. (Heb 8:10) Yet, men are superior with their book of "light" that always needs updating.   8 million JWs have no understanding of the true spiritual organization built on the anointed Body of Christ.  Who would blind them of this truth, Jesus or Satan?  (Col 2:8; Rev 12:1-4,7,13-15)

 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.

“Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”  Acts 24,25,29-31

"human design and skill", is how an earthly organization is is born.

As I just asked a JW, once a ministerial servant ,who now realizes now that no earthly organization is the "way" to truth...

"One has to ask, what is more important today, this spiritual Temple, or the organization?  Who is called on to teach the word of God, the anointed priesthood (Mal 2:7), or elders not part of God’s Temple, but are the backbone of an earthly organization?

I'm sorry you are so blind.  

53 minutes ago, xero said:

As much as I look about, this is certainly an earmark of what I'd expect of a true religion - that the religion would expect and enforce biblical standards and principles.

That leaves out the Wt organization, which continually fights for their worldly rights; who cannot accept a court's decision in the case of child abuse, but must bulldoze their way back into court, to preserve their riches.  As far as religious organizations go, they are as worldly as the worst of them.  

"Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you." James 1:27

James 2:1-17; Exod 22:22; James 4:4-10

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I am not aware of "many accounts" but if we're honest, I'd bet that most of us here know of at least one case in any average sized congregation. I just wrote up a related experience of a sister who I think no one would consider mentally imbalanced, but who was told to hold off a few years partaking in public because awareness of her "calling" was causing distress for another sister who was then only one in that congregation who partook. I just removed the long-winded version of the experience because it's too easy to figure out who these ones were.

Everything is wrong with this picture.

Everything.

The distressed sister was preventing another member of the Body to “partake”. Perhaps she was enjoying her presumed prestige she experienced in that congregation?  She couldn’t tolerate a rival.  The sister who went to the elder is equally guilty, if she listened to him and did not partake.  Her first inclination should have been to approach the distressed sister with scriptures, who should have been over the moon knowing another anointed had joined her. (1 Cor 12:15-26; 11:33)  Perhaps it is only in her own mind that the distressed one had put herself upon a pedestal…sort of like her example, Tony Morris.   

The elder, is also guilty.  He is not the mediator between Jesus Christ and the members of his body. (1 Tim 2:5)   But, that is the setup of the organization, and it is blasphemy.  Rev 13:5-8)  They have the power to rule over a spiritual nation, the “special possession” of God, and the anointed allow it.  Whenever this has happened in the past with Israel, it is because of their sins.  The anointed have left Jesus Christ and allowed men to dictate their every move.

Gal 1:10 - For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.

Obviously, the example provided shows this. 

The elders, “represent the royal priesthood”, which means, they are an active representation of God’s priests.  They are acting in the capacity of priests.  On the other hand, the members of God’s authentic priesthood are told they cannot act as priests until the Kingdom.  In actuality, they are treated no different than any other JW.  But their representatives are treated with honor.  Every JW is told they must submit to their decrees.  This has made it convenient, for men to rule over and trample the anointed.  The power of the holy ones (aside of any who may be anointed within the GB at present) does not exist.  (Dan 12:7; Matt 24:15,16; 2 Thess 2:3,4) And, the GB's power does not come from Jesus Christ anyway.  (Matt 24:24; Rev 13:11,12)

Mal 2:7 - “For the lips of a priest ought to preserve knowledge, because he is the messenger of the Lord Almighty and people seek instruction from his mouth.”

The dichotomy to Mal 2:7 is this:

The lips of the elders who “represent the royal priesthood” ought to preserve knowledge, because he is the messenger of the GB, and JWs seek instruction from his mouth.

42 minutes ago, Anna said:

None of this is true at all

You are not aware of the many accounts, I suppose, of anointed who have approached the elders saying they are anointed, yet the elders say they aren't?   How many "mentally imbalanced" anointed are told they are not anointed and cannot partake?  Only God knows, right?

Are you saying that the GB are liars about not approving of the anointed to bond and study the Bible together?

14 hours ago, xero said:

No, even now it strikes me as a very important thing, this business of discipline.

Do you enjoy having such power to discipline  all JWs?  Do you realize you have been given power by men to judge the anointed royal priesthood/"Israel"/Temple/dwelling of God? (1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22.  Is this power originating from God?  

2 Thess 2:1-4 - "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God." 

Next time you pass the memorial emblems to an anointed one who cannot join with other anointed to study God's word together, I hope you think about this.  It is a control issue, and you are a part of it as an elder. (Rev 13:5-8,11,12,15)  You also have the power to tell someone they are not anointed and cannot partake.   Jesus and his disciples that formed the foundation of the Temple of God, did not have those not invited to his supper, passing the emblems to them. 

Who really should receive discipline for not following God's word?  

"But you and your sons with you shall attend to your priesthood for everything that concerns the altar and inside the veil, and you are to perform service. I am giving you the priesthood as a service that is a gift, and the unauthorized person who comes near shall be put to death."  Num 18:7

"But no one is to enter the house of the LORD except the priests and the ministering Levites; they may enter, for they are holy. And all the people are to keep the command of the LORD." 2 Chron 23:6

'This is what the Lord GOD says: "No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, of all the foreigners who are among the sons of Israel, shall enter My sanctuary."  Ezek 44:9

Have the elders entered God's sanctuary?  Yes, they have the authority to "represent the royal priesthood".  But, there is no scripture that allows for "uncircumcised" men to act as God's priests. Thus, the Temple in the anointed are slandered, silenced and judged.

"If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy that person; for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are."  1 Cor 3:17

Rev 11:1,2 -  "I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months."  

2 hours ago, xero said:

It struck me that perhaps this was the reason I felt comfortable around these people as a group and in general. There were actual consequences for misbehavior.

The consequence of a spiritual "death", as one ex-elder put it recently, in a video I watched?  (John 16:2)

You must not be up-to-date with the old light on disfellowshipping.

20 hours ago, Anna said:

It would be due to the intentional offering of worship; like in the case of Cornelius who bowed before Peter and worshipped him (Acts 10:25-26). If a Catholic were to do such a thing, they would need to repent and begin offering worship to the one who alone has a right to our worship—namely, God.

So, you are applying this to praying to,  and worshipping Jesus Christ?

Rev 5:6-14

Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll
    and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
    and with your blood you purchased for God
    persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
    and they will reign on the earth.”

11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they were saying:

“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
    to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
    and honor and glory and praise!”

13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:

“To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
    be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”

14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

Both the Father and the Son are “worshiped” in this passage. But I suppose in your mind you may be thinking that the falling down was only toward the Lamb, and the worship was given only to the Father. 

1 hour ago, Anna said:

Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

The Bible is explicitly clear that worship belongs only to God.

Who was involved in the conversation?  Everyone?

Who does Jesus worship?  He worships the Father.

Does Satan worship God?  No. Satan wanted Jesus to worship him.  

What did Jesus remind Satan about worship?  

No one else but the two of them, was in the conversation.

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

In this verse he not directed people to LOVE JHVH. In this verse he not directed people to KEEP commandments of JHVH. He directed people to himself. Interesting.

God’s Word is Truth.  It provides the Way to life.

As the Logos, the messenger of God’s Word, Jesus is the Truth, the Way, and the Life.  No one comes to the Father except through him.  John 14:6  We've heard this many times.

And yet, there is more.

“The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. ¹⁶ For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.”  Col 1:15,16 

If we happened to know a person who was a walking “encyclopedia”, who knew the answers to all of our questions, we would frequently seek him out.   This would fit the case of Solomon.

1 Kings 4:29-34 -

God gave Solomon wisdom and very great insight, and a breadth of understanding as measureless as the sand on the seashore. ³⁰ Solomon’s wisdom was greater than the wisdom of all the people of the East, and greater than all the wisdom of Egypt. ³¹ He was wiser than anyone else, including Ethan the Ezrahite—wiser than Heman, Kalkol and Darda, the sons of Mahol. And his fame spread to all the surrounding nations. ³² He spoke three thousand proverbs and his songs numbered a thousand and five. ³³ He spoke about plant life, from the cedar of Lebanon to the hyssop that grows out of walls. He also spoke about animals and birds, reptiles and fish. ³⁴ From all nations people came to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, sent by all the kings of the world, who had heard of his wisdom.

One mortal man was given such wisdom.  The depth of who Jesus is, and his wisdom seems impossible for us to fathom, but he wants us to learn this wisdom, directly from him.  And then we have the Wt, who created a gap between reaching out to him and his wisdom, with the decision that less emphasis was to be given to Jesus, and more emphasis on “Jehovah”.   This gap has grown over the years.  Another gap was created between the anointed and their relationship with Jesus, which is daunting for them to face.  They allow the power of physical men to rule over that relationship, which really isn’t a relationship at all.  Reaching out to their Savior personally, reaching out to the members of his body, comes with a cost of losing the life they know as JWs. (Matt 10:39)  It can only be a setup by the evil one.  No one should regulate how we worship the Father and the Son.     

Preventing ourselves from praying, speaking to Jesus, limits also our relationship with the Father. (Rom 8:38,39)

If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well.  John 14:7

John 21:25  -  “Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.”

Pearl commented on this once:

“When I read that verse, I reflect upon the reality that Jesus was the Tree of Life in Eden.  He was the wellspring that reflected the mind of God.  He said, “All that the Father has, is mine”.  I’m sure that alluded to Jesus having a limitless resource of truth.  His depiction of having hair, white as snow, reflects his wisdom.  Imagine the required intelligence needed, to create everything in the physical realm…various biospheres, internal organs, the propagation and reproduction of living things, our consciousness, the microbiology of the soil.  It’s endless.  Jesus is the source of wisdom for mankind.  We ourselves cannot grasp the Father.  But Jesus comes from the Father’s bosom.  Isa 40:13 asks, Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?”  But we have the mind of Christ” (1 Cor 2:16)  It is the words of Jesus that can instruct the human mind in divine truth.  I think that John was commenting on his experience with Jesus…that every word from him, reflected his great wisdom.  Johns saw that the wisdom of Jesus, was boundless.  Any attempt to record all that Jesus knew, “the world could not contain the books that would written”.

I know I’m very passionate about this, but if I return to what @xero started with…

"I ask him and talk to him on the basis of Jesus and his office as high priest and king, however if prayer is respectful speech to God, then what is respectful speech to Jesus? Am I not supposed to talk to him? All authority is given him in heaven and on earth by Jehovah, so recently I've been feeling that I'm treating Jesus like a simple messenger and go-between, which he certainly IS as a mediator, but not at all simple. But am I not allowed to talk to him? Is he not my Lord and Savior? "

…I can detect that the organization’s teachings about Christ and who he is, have little depth.  Xero perceives something is missing.  I hear JWs refer to the “ransom” more than they refer to Jesus Christ.  The “ruler of this world” will do everything possible to limit the perception of Jesus, and prevent one from approaching him in prayer; especially among those who are part of his Body. (Matt 24:24)  We have to remember that this is war, between “seeds”.  Gen 3:15

“For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 

²¹ For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 

²² Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 

²³ that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.  John 5:20-23

The word, “honor” has this meaning:

τιμάω timáō, tim-ah'-o; from G5093; to prize, i.e. fix a valuation upon; by implication, to revere:—honour, value.

Definition of “revere” -
: to show devoted deferential honor to : regard as worthy of great honor

Synonyms: “adore, deify, glorify, reverence, venerate, worship” 

John 10:30 – “I and the Father are one”.

The same honor, is to be given to the Father and to his Son, the  "Everlasting Father" of the Kingdom's children. (Isa 9:6)  The Son glorifies the Father, and the Father glorifies the Son.   

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."  John 17:1-5

13 minutes ago, Witness said:

Do you see this?  Do you really believe that God is going to tell us to give "obeisance" to Jesus Christ when Jesus is brought back into the world?  Or, does God expect us to give him worship?  Heb 1:5-6

 

In order to worship Jesus Christ, we pray to him. 

18 minutes ago, Anna said:

However, there is no such dispute about John 16:23 where John wrote: “... whatever you ask the Father for, he will give you in my name.” We should ask the Father (not the Son) in Jesus’ name. Therefore 'me' at John 14:14 is even more in doubt.

Jesus did tell us to ask the Father in his name.  There is also this:

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out."  

This is an invitation.  Is God the mediator of Jesus?  How do we come to him without communicating with him?  John 6:37

 Berean Interlinear Bible:

14ἐάν (If) τι (anything) αἰτήσητέ (you ask) με (Me)c ἐν (in) τῷ (the) ὀνόματί (name) μου (of Me), ἐγὼ (I) ποιήσω (will do it).

 There are many scriptures we can dispute.  And, especially the NWT which has taken the Greek word for "worship" whenever used in relationship to Jesus Christ,  and changed it to "obeisance".  Yet, not only is "worship" used for God, but for Satan.  

That is a serious step to take, which has its basis in men's doctrine, who do not want you to pray to Christ, and it is no different than changing scripture to enforce the  trinity.  

For to which of the angels did He ever say:

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?

And again:

“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?

6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:

“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

Do you see this?  Do you really believe that God is going to tell us to give "obeisance" to Jesus Christ when Jesus is brought back into the world?  Or, does God expect us to give him worship?  Heb 1:5-6

16 minutes ago, Anna said:

I don't see ME in this interlinear

https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh14.pdf

 

I don't either.  🙂

But I see it here:  https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/14-14.htm

5 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

From scripture I've only seen Jesus guide the anointed to pray to Almighty God. The anointed pray through Christ of course but I haven't seen Jesus say 'Pray to me' 

"And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me  for anything in my name, and I will do it."  John 14:13,14  NIV

Do you have a copy of the Wt. Greek Kingdom Interlinear?  This attachment is from the 1969 edition, and notice how the word, "me" is removed from the English rendering on the right for John 14:14.  

Today's NWT also omits the word "me" - "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it."

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

From scripture I've only seen Jesus guide the anointed to pray to Almight God. The anointed pray through Christ of course but I haven't seen Jesus say 'Pray to me' 

However, I am not anointed, so I do not expect to fully understand scripture. I do not expect God or Chrsit to open up the scriptures to me. 

I think there is a need for an organisation that is run by the True Anointed. The scripture of ten men clinging to the skirt of a JEW, has to be fulfilled. So I do not expect the Earthly class to fully understand scripture. 

I agree that Christ and the Anointed 'are one' as in 'one spiritual body' with Christ as it's head.

We were all meant to understand the word of God. If that wasn’t the case, we wouldn’t recognize truth.   Yes, the anointed are to be the teachers that bring living water they have received from the spirit of the Father and Christ, to those who crave it.  The same living water fills each heart.   (Mal 2:7; John 4:14; 7:38+)

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mal+2%3A7%3B+John+4%3A14%3B+7%3A38%3B+John13%3A20%3B+Matt.10%3A14%3B+Luke+10%3A16%3B+1Cor.4%3A1%3B+2Cor.5%3A20%3B+Col.1%3A20%3B+Mal.2%3A7%3B+Rev.1%3A6%3B+5%3A10%3B+Zech.8%3A23%3B+Rev.21%3A3%3B+Micah4%3A2%3B+Rev.14%3A1&version=CSB

You have already been blessed by Holy Spirit.  Without it, you would not perceive the peril that the anointed face in the organization.  You recognize that the elder body have replaced God’s priesthood.   The elders “stand where they do not belong”, in the Temple/dwelling of God. (Mark 13:14; 1 Cor 3:16; Rev 11:2; Dan 7:25; 8:10,13; 11:36; 2 Thess 2:4; Luke 21:24; Rev 13:10,7)

Could we perceive this on our own, without the blessing of our eyes being opened? (Isa 35:5; Acts 26:17,18) This blindness was prophesied to occur during the last days. (Isa 6:10; Col 2:8; Rev 13:10,11,12,14; 2:20)  You have reacted appropriately to the sins and hypocrisy that you witness in the organization, and have left – you have exited the apostate “city”. (Rev 18:4-8) You look for the “mountains/hills” of Judea where the “true anointed” will be found.  (Matt 24:15,16)

I know you have noticed that most JWs here, cannot see the grave circumstances that exist among the anointed and themselves in the organization.  Instead, there is mocking, a turning of the head, and complacency when it is addressed.  Why? Their eyes are sealed over. (John 12:40; 2 Cor 11:13-15; Rev 16:13-16) They are drinking “Wormwood’s” (fallen anointed) poisoned waters, and not those from Christ, although they believe they are. (Heb 12:15; Rev 8:10,11; Jude 1:12,13) They have accepted the life they want, even though they are “always learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.”  (1 Thess 5:3; 2 Tim 3:7; 4:1)   When we put a stop to drinking in those lies, and begin our search by praying for authentic truth, the veil is lifted from our spiritual eyes.  (Rev 3:18-20)

Here are just a few scriptures that apply to those not anointed, and to all:

John 11:25,26 - Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me, even if he dies, will live.  Everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this? ”  John 11:25,26

Heb 6:10 - “For God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you demonstrated for his name by serving the saints -- and by continuing to serve them.”

1 Cor 1:2 – “To the church of God at Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called as saints, with all those in every place who call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord -- both their Lord and ours.”

Matt 25:37-40 - “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? ³⁸ When did we see you a stranger and take you in, or without clothes and clothe you? ³⁹ When did we see you sick, or in prison, and visit you?’

⁴⁰ “And the King will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

"The Spirit is the one who gives life. The flesh doesn't help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.”

Rev 22:17“Both the Spirit and the bride say, "Come! " Let anyone who hears, say, "Come! " Let the one who is thirsty come. Let the one who desires take the water of life freely.”

“Then he told his servants, 'The banquet is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 "Go then to where the roads exit the city and invite everyone you find to the banquet.' 10 "So those servants went out on the roads and gathered everyone they found, both evil and good. The wedding banquet was filled with guests.”

This banquet is the revealing of truth, the unfolding of Revelation which you are already beginning to perceive through the blessing of Holy Spirit. (Ps 119:130; Dan 8:26; 12:4)  The true "faithful" anointed do not arrive with bells and whistles as the GB have, with their army of elders; but in time, the “mountain” of truth will become more prominent, and the mountain of lies will become level ground.  Zech 4:1-14

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

Most gladly, then, I will boast about my weaknesses, in order that the power of the Christ may remain over me like a tent

A bit different in translation and meaning I think. 

 

 So I take pleasure in weaknesses, in insults, in times of need, in persecutions and difficulties, for Christ. For when I am weak, then I am powerful.

 

 

Thank you.  This appears to be a NWT, which I personally cannot trust.   If the anointed Body of Christ is trampled in the organization, so is Jesus Christ, their Head.   Dan 8:25

I find it helpful to get a broader view of what is being said.  Here’s a link for many translations, just for 2 Cor 12:9

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/2 Corinthians 12:9  

Consider this, the anointed are part of Christ.  They are the members of his spiritual Body.  He is the Head.   With a physical body, all members are controlled by the head, the mind.  No?  How, can the anointed operate without consulting their Head?  They must meet his approval, they must ask for direction.  They are his future “wife”. 

If we were beheaded we would die. If we were to ignore what our head/mind tells us, we would become a vegetable.

This, is what I see happening with the anointed in the organization.  They are disconnected from their Head and rely on men to guide them, who prohibited from them connecting in prayer, with their Head, Jesus Christ.

5 hours ago, xero said:

My thoughts on anointed in the past is that we'll eventually find out they were unremarkable from a modern human's historical viewpoint. Probably humble people. Maybe not even particularly bright.

That is true.  But isn’t it quite remarkable what GB has done!  They have put themselves in the limelight, and express the need to trust them!  Look what they have accomplished and built.  And of course, the decrees they pass down must be obeyed. 

I am being flippant, because the description you give of an anointed one does not fit the “anointed” leadership of the organization who glorify themselves before cameras, and before God.  Who have proclaimed that they will be with Christ before the final judgment has arrived.  Men, who expects obedience to their errors.

 ^“Brothers and sisters, consider what you were when God called you to be Christians. Not many of you were wise from a human point of view. You were not in powerful positions or in the upper social classes. ²⁷ But God chose what the world considers nonsense to put wise people to shame. God chose what the world considers weak to put what is strong to shame. ²⁸ God chose what the world considers ordinary and what it despises—what it considers to be nothing—in order to destroy what it considers to be something. ²⁹ As a result, no one can brag in God’s presence. ³⁰ You are partners with Christ Jesus because of God. Jesus has become our wisdom sent from God, our approval, our holiness, and our ransom from sin. ³¹ As Scripture says, “Whoever brags must brag about what the Lord has done.” 1 Cor 1:26-31

These men, won’t last.  Rev 17:12,13,15-18

On 3/19/2021 at 9:39 AM, Anna said:

It is a difficult doctrine for me to accept, yes, however, I am not saying it can't be true. The organization is obviously convinced it is true. If one day there is sufficient evidence for them to stop being so dogmatic about it, they may change their opinion. They have done it before with other things. If that happens, then it won't change my opinion about Jws. It will remain the same as it is today because I do not hang my faith on the 1914 doctrine.

Okay, but I ask, where is love for neighbor with this doctrine, a doctrine that for those who may not be like you, but totally embrace this timetable? Where is your love for your neighboring JWs?   This date is at the root of the organization’s teachings, and is a source of disfellowshipping for many who reject it.  Perhaps that is why you may be keeping your opinion to yourself? (Prov 29:25; Mark 10:29,30)

I just heard a video clip that stated a document was prepared by the Chairman’s Committee of the GB, to change the date of 1914 to 1957.  Ray Franz comments on this document he was holding in the video:

"Now, in this document, they suggest and advances an idea, that uh, the generation that would see the time of the end of all things should not be counted from 1914.  They fix on Jesus’ statement that there would be signs in the heavens, and so they suggest here that the date should be moved up to 1957, when the Sputnik was sent into space by the Russians, and they say, now this is the celestial phenomena that would indicate the generation that would see the final” (I didn’t catch the last word).

It seems that this “Sputnik” idea was even brought out on this forum since I've been a member.  Someone can correct me on that.

So, there you go.  If the doctrine of 1914 was correct, well established by the “slave” under the guidance of Jesus Christ, there would be no reason to consider moving the date.  There would be no need for David Splane to twist and turn the dates of Fred Franz’s birth and baptism…to make a new understanding of a date...they are too cowardly to admit is a lie. 

And yet, it is a tool used to kick people to the curb, and why?  To save the face of men who have no pity for the damage they have done, to the lives of millions over the years. 

Differing weights and varying measures—
both are detestable to the Lord.  Prov 20:10

Their hypocrisy should be detestable to us also.

Have they proven to be “faithful and discreet”?  The word translated as “discreet”, actually has, as its definition…“wise”.  Matt 24:48-51

There is no love for neighbor, no truth, no wisdom, no insight in the doctrine of 1914. 

Yet, this date characterizes the organization that you belong to.

"Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. 18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple. " Rom 16:17,18

15 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Then we have in John 14 6; Jesus said to him, “I am the way + and the truth + and the life. + No one comes to the Father except through me.
But we also have John 6 44; No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him, ..

Thank you for these scriptures. 

God sends those whose hearts desire to serve Him, to Jesus.  Without knowing Jesus and his teachings, we cannot fully come to know God.  Jesus is the pivotal point in our worship in spirit and truth.  (John 4:23,24)

“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." Matt 11:27

This takes a relationship with Christ in order to know the Father.  No one can establish a valuable relationship with anyone, without communication.  

The apostle Paul was a human being who spoke to Jesus twice after his resurrection that we know of...besides the vision he experienced.  How can one man, as well as Stephen, have the privilege of speaking to Jesus, but no other person is allowed to?

"Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 

This is communication, but with whom?

9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” 

Who's power?

"Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong."  2 Cor 12:7b-10

Jesus and Paul were communicating through prayer.