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Witness

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    Witness got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in IS IT PROPER FOR A WOMAN TO SPEAK, TEACH AND PROPHESY?   
    I must ask, did you read the article written by Pearl?  You offer no scriptures as a rebuttal, while the article is chocked full of them supporting the role of women as teachers and prophets.
    Just look at the example of prophets.
    “Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.”  Eph 2:20-22
    “Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.” 1 Cor 12:27-31
    There is no demarcation between male or female in these scriptures.  It is in the minds of men.
    “Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.” 1 Cor 14:29-31
    So you see, women who were prophets were to instruct others, which included men. Thus, prophets could be teachers as well.  And as far as teachers go, does it say they must be male?  Are you speaking for God when you say women cannot teach?  How do you know women who are anointed are not given the admonition by Holy Spirit to teach, especially when we have record of women prophets who also instructed others in the congregations?
    “There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”  Gal 3:28
    Prophets that we know of in the New Testament:
    Anna
    Mary
    Philip’s daughters
    Over the ages since Christ, we can guarantee there were more:
    Acts 2:17,18 - ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
    That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
    Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
    Your young men shall see visions,
    Your old men shall dream dreams.
    18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
    I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
    And they shall prophesy.’
     
     
     
     
     
     
  2. Like
    Witness got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in IS IT PROPER FOR A WOMAN TO SPEAK, TEACH AND PROPHESY?   
    Pearl Doxsey - 
    (1 Corinthians 14:34)... "let the women keep silent in the congregations, for it is not permitted for them to speak, but let them be in subjection, even as the Law says" 
    Paul had been a teacher of this "Law" that he was referring to (Acts23:6). This was the Jewish Law, which viewed woman as lower class, untouchable, and as unclean.

    Christ abolished this practice (Rom.4:14; Eph.2:15,16; Matt.9:20,21,22), as we will see. 
    At Gal.2:21; 3:1-2 Paul stated...
    I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose. O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the law based in the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
    Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"
    (see also Col.2:14,20; Eph.2:15)
     
     Take note of how he introduces Phoebe:
     Rom.16:1,2:
    "I recommend to YOU Phoe′be our sister, who is a minister of the congregation that is in Cen′chre‧ae, 2 that YOU may welcome her in [the] Lord in a way worthy of the holy ones, and that YOU may assist her in any matter where she may need YOU, for she herself also proved to be a defender of many, yes, of me myself".


    And what Paul said here...

    1 Cor. 11:4 "Every man that prays or prophesies having something on his head shames his head; 5 but every woman that prays or prophesies with her head uncovered shames her head"...clearly reveals his realization that women can prophesy.
    This is confirmed, at Acts 21:8-9.

    Why the change in Paul's teaching about women?

    Regarding whether the new Christian congregation continued to practice the Law, this gradually faded and those who continued to observe it, were corrected.

    Heb.8:7,6,13 states:

    (7) "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah (6) But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. (13) By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear."
    So the time came for the Law to "disappear", which was at Pentecost (please noteActs1:4-5; 1:8-9; 2:1-4,14-18), when both men and women received the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant, and they were enabled to prophesy, speak, and teach. The Law, was then finished.

    Even while the Jewish Nation was still under Law, note some accounts of women who were prophets:

    (Luke 2:36,37,38) Now there was Anna a prophetess, Phan′u‧el’s daughter, of Ash′er’s tribe (this woman was well along in years, and had lived with a husband for seven years from her virginity, 37 and she was a widow now eighty-four years old), who was never missing from the temple, rendering sacred service night and day with fastings and supplications. 38 And in that very hour she came near and began returning thanks to God and speaking about [the child] to all those waiting for Jerusalem’s deliverance".

    Judges 4:4:
    "Now Deb′o‧rah, a prophetess, the wife of Lap′pi‧doth, was judging Israel at that particular time....
    and the sons of Israel would go up to her for judgment".
    2Kings 22:14-20:
     "Accordingly Hil‧ki′ah the priest and A‧hi′kam and Ach′bor and Sha′phan and A‧sai′ahwent to Hul′dah the prophetess the wife of Shal′lum the son of Tik′vah the son of Har′has, the caretaker of the garments, as she was dwelling in Jerusalem in the second quarter; and they proceeded to speak to her. 15 In turn she said to them: “This is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said, ‘Say to the man that has sent YOU men to me: 16 “This is what Jehovah has said, ‘Here I am bringing calamity upon this place and upon its inhabitants, even all the words of the book that the king of Judah has read; 17 due to the fact that they have left me and have gone making sacrificial smoke to other gods in order to offend me with all the work of their hands, and my rage has been set afire against this place and will not be extinguished.’”’ 
    18 And as to the king of Judah who is sending YOU to inquire of Jehovah, this is what YOU should say to him, ‘This is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said: “As regards the words that you have heard, 19 for the reason that your heart was soft so that you humbled yourself because of Jehovah at your hearing what I have spoken against this place and its inhabitants [for it] to become an object of astonishment and a malediction, and then you ripped your garments apart and began weeping before me, I, even I, have heard,” is the utterance of Jehovah. 20 “That is why here I am gathering you to your forefathers, and you will certainly be gathered to your own graveyard in peace, and your eyes will not look upon all the calamity that I am bringing upon this place.”’” And they proceeded to bring the king the reply.".
    2Chron.34:22  "Accordingly Hil‧ki′ah along with those whom the king [had said] went to Hul′dah the prophetess, the wife of Shal′lum the son of Tik′vah the son of Har′has the caretaker of the garments, as she was dwelling in Jerusalem in the second quarter; and they proceeded to speak to her like this. 23 In turn she said to them:...".
    Side point:
    Interestingly, the name Huldah (meaning mole-rat), and deborah (meaning bee) are both creatures who belong to social structures called, eusociality.
      According to Wikipedia:
    Eusociality (Greek eu: "good/real" + "social") is a term used for the highest level of social organization in a hierarchical classification.
     
    Examples
    "The most familiar examples are social insects such as ants, bees, and wasps (order Hymenoptera), as well as termites (order Isoptera), all with reproductive queens and more or less sterile workers and/or soldiers. The only mammalian examples are the naked mole rat and the Damaraland mole rat.[2]
    Eusociality with biologically sterile individuals represents the most extreme form of kin selection. The analysis of eusociality played a key role in the development of theories in
    sociobiology.
    The phenomenon of reproductive specialization is found in various organisms. It generally involves the production of sterile members of the species, which carry out specialized tasks, effectively caring for the reproductive members. It can manifest in the appearance of individuals within a group whose behavior (and sometimes anatomy) is modified for group defense, including self-sacrificing ("altruism")."

    I find it interesting that the names of both prophetesses are derived from eusocial creatures, that have a queen at the pinnacle of its complex social structure.

    Let us move forward in time to the example of Christ.
    Jesus corrected and defied this practice of spurning women, even doing so with a Samaritan woman. He both spoke to her and touched her, which broke that Law twice. He asked her questions and listened to her answers, also breaking this Law (John 4:7-27). He had women as friends (John 11:5,20), including a former Harlot (Luke 7:36-50). He anointed women, and is still doing so today (1Pet.3:7;Acts 1:14;2:1,2,3,4,18,33). 
    Anointed women are to be among the "two witnesses"; ...anointed that he will "cause" to "prophesy" (Rev.11:3,4,5) during the last days (Acts 2:17; Rev.1:10).
    We read at Rev.6:9-11, that both men and women... 
         ["brothers and sisters" - Greek word for brothers and sisters
          (adelphoi) refers here to believers, both men and women, 
           as part of God’s family; also in Rev.12:10; 19:10.] 
    ..."killed" for giving their testimony. Women cannot testify, if they are silent.
    Is there other scriptural proof that women can be true prophets?
    See Acts 21:8-10 and Acts 2:18...
    (Acts 21:9) This man had four daughters, virgins, that prophesied" (Philip)
    (Acts 2:18) and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
     
    The "Watchtower" society interprets 1Cor.14:34 as meaning that a sister cannot get up in front of the Congregation and teach the men in the audience, including perhaps her husband. Yet, women were evangelizers and prophets. So they did teach. 
    Let us consider another scripture which is used to silence women, and remove them from the religious justice system.
    (1 Timothy 2:11,12)... "Let a woman learn in silence with full submissiveness. 12 I (not God) do not permit a woman to teach, or to *exercise authority over a man*, but to be in silence."
    Paul made a distinction between his own opinion, and one derived from God's Holy Spirit (1Cor.7:40,6,25).
    When Paul stated; 
    "Let a woman *learn in silence* with full submissiveness"...
    I am inclined to believe that Paul was referring to the Bible's meaning of "woman" covenants, and those taken into them (Gal.4:24,26)...that these are to be silent before the Christ who teaches them (Matt.10:27;Eph.5:23,24; Col.1:18; 1Cor.12:27) This is the meaning of the context of 1Tim.2:12(1Tim.2:13,14,15; Gal.4:19; Rev.12:2; Eph.5:23,24,32) Being "kept safe through childbearing" (1Tim.2:15) is not a reference to literal women in a physical sense, but was a symbolic, spiritual reference (Gal.4:19; Rev.12:1-2; John16:21-22). 

    Also the submissive virginal "wife" of which Paul speaks as having this spiritual protection, is not physical, but spiritual (2Cor.11:2; Matt.25:1; Rev.21:9).
    How might this lack of submissiveness among symbolic "women" (Rev.17:1), be evidenced?
    Many anointed ones/Chosen saints, and other ecclesiastical leaders fail in their submission to Christ (John15:4-5,8),
    by "speaking up" and teaching things that Christ has not given them (Matt.24:45-48;24:49-51; Rev.14:8; Deut.32:33). These usurp the headship and actual teachings of Christ, in favor of their own contrived tenets (Matt.15:9; Col.2:22; Mark7:13).

    Paul was the watchdog of the first century, over this very "wife" (2Cor.11:2-3; 11:13).
    This is why he did not permit such impropriety among the "Bride"/"woman" members (Rev.21:2,9; 19:7; 22:17).
    So, a prophetess (who is not learning from a man, but learning from God) learns in silence. This carries with it the thought that while she is learning, she should not contribute her own thoughts (John16:13). This should apply to male prophets as well, who are also members of this "woman". While silent during learning;  .....after she has learned, she can not be silent!.....(we will learn why, below.)
    "I do not permit a woman to teach"...
    Notice, Paul does not say, "God does not permit", he says. "I do not permit".
    "or to *exercise authority over a man*"...
    But, she can convey God's message without exercising authority over a man! 
    By a woman writing what God's Word and spirit incites, men can choose to read and heed, or not (Eze.2:5,7).

    What a true prophet offers is not based on *authority over men*, but they give what God directs by spirit. About 350 times, Bible writers wrote the words, "Hear the word of Jehovah". Yet, this message from God, came through the mouths of his prophets and prophetesses.

    Neither I, other women, nor even men, have any authority to teach. While a man, even Jesus did not take this authority. (John 7:16). Only YHWH and the glorified Christ have such authority (Rev.5:4,5). They "exercise authority over" all men (Matt.28:18). What they give, we all must teach (1Cor.9:16; Jer.20:9; Matt10:27).
    One who prophesies (male or female), must preach God's message to all (Acts5:28-29). This can be done in a respectful way that does not neglect the respect men are due (1 Peter 3:15). Men can voluntarily read what a prophetess may write. Remember, a true prophet does not teach from themselves...they only pass on what they are given by God. . Like Christ, they do not speak of their own originality. They speak what God commands and gives. They are only a vessel (Acts9:15; Rom.9:21;1Thess.4:4; 2Tim.2:21). Therefore, it is not them teaching, but God (Matt.10:20).

    Should we then take all that any "prophet" says, as from God? No. Any man or woman making that claim, we must scrutinize! Jesus said this scrutiny is vital. He also told us how to do this (Matt.7:15-27; Gal.5:22,23,24,25). Also, any interpretations of prophecy, must be done completely by means of God's Word (Gen.40:8; Rev.22:18,19). 
    Would anointed women have a role in this job of prophesying???
    If you look at Gal. 3:28...
    (Galatians 3:26,27,28) YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus".
    We see here that once a woman is a son of God (anointed), baptized into Christ by spirit, she no longer is considered separate from the men (or a lower female) in comparison to her other brothers in Christ. All become "sons" and "brothers" in union with Christ. This pouring out of spirit upon both men and women under the New Covenant, began at Pentecost, as discussed at the outset of this article.
    Romans 12:4,5,6 reads:
     "For just as we have in one body many members, but the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, although many, are one body in union with Christ, but members belonging individually to one another. 6 Since, then, we have gifts differing according to the undeserved kindness given to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the faith proportioned [to us]".
    Christ's body is made of both male and female. Each uses whatever gift they are given by spirit.

    1Cor. 10:17:
    "Because there is one loaf, we, although many, are one body, for we are all partaking of that one loaf."
    Should a female prophet fail to declare what she has received from God and Christ because of fear of man (as being over her), she would be submitting herself to men rather than to God (Acts5:29; Rom.3:4). No prophecy from God should be silenced to honor men. God is obeyed and honored, foremost (John5:44; Rev.4:11).
    Remember what YHWH says:
    (Acts 2:18) and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy".
    We must prophesy, whether we are female prophets, or male prophets.
    We cannot prophesy if we are "silent".
    - - - - - - -
    (Acts 21:9) This man had four daughters, virgins, that prophesied" (Philip)
    (Acts 2:18) and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
    (Galatians 3:26,27,28) YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus".
     
    ----------------PART TWO--------------------
     "
    A QUESTION:

    Jehovah Witness Religion-What is the role of women?
    Question: "Can a women lead the congregation in a Kingdom Hall and can she reside over a funeral?" 
    ANSWER:

    Hello Jane,
    Your question is a bit difficult because it is really asking three things; and the answer to each is different.

    In the "Subject", you ask what the role of women is in the "Jehovah's Witness" religion.
    Yet your question asks if a woman can lead the Congregation in a Kingdom Hall; 
    and then, if a woman can preside over a funeral.

    I will do my best to give you a thorough answer to all three.

    In regards to the religious doctrine of "Jehovah's Witnesses", all baptized women are considered to be in subjection to all baptized men. This means that they can not take the lead in anything within the religion, or within the Kingdom Hall. 
    The only exception is what is called "taking the lead out in service". According to doctrine, a woman may, if no male is available, cover her head (to show subjection to the males who are not present), and then proceed to make field service arrangements and offer a closing prayer for that gathering. 
    ("Field service arrangements", determine who rides in what car with who, and what territory will be covered.) 
    Other than that, women do not give "talks" in Kingdom Halls, unless they sit down at a table and put the information in "demonstration" format...a dramatization...a pretend scenario. In this way, it can be construed that she is not really "teaching" the men in her audience.
    Of course to anyone who has thinking ability, this is hypocrisy.

    I hope this addresses your first question.

    As regards the covering of the woman's head to show subjection..."Jehovah's Witnesses" claim that all women are under subjection to all baptized men, and they must display this subjection in order to give the angels in heaven a good example. They base this doctrine upon 1Cor11:1-16:

    1"Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.  
    2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.  
    3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 
    4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 
    5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 
    6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 
    7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 
    8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 
    9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 
    10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 
    11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 
    12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God. 
    13 Judge among yourselves. Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 
    14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him? 
    15 But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her[a] for a covering. 
    16 But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God.

    I hope that you will let this scripture, upon which "Jehovah's Witnesses" rest this doctrine, to teach you what God's Word actually says in comparison to this doctrine.
    Take note of verse 5...
    "But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved."  
    There it says that if a woman prays or prophesies uncovered, she dishonors "HER HEAD". This is saying that she need not show subjection to ALL men, but only her personal head, which is her own husband. This is confirmed at Eph.5:22,23,24:

    "Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything."

    Therefore, the "head" of each woman, is not ALL baptized men in general, but only her own husband (baptized or not), should she be married.
    What about an anointed woman or female anointed prophet? Who is her head?
    Anointed (male or female) have one head...Christ. (Eph.1:22; 5:23; Col.1:18; 2:19)
    Anointed are told to put their marriage behind their calling (1Cor.7:29).

    Note too, that the praying and prophesying a woman may do in verse 5, is public. 
    This CONTRADICTS the doctrine, which prohibits women from saying public prayers or public teaching in Kingdom Halls. 
    (This doctrine is hypocritically violated when women preach door-to-door.) 
    It seems uncovered women are permitted to take the lead teaching publicly when outside the Kingdom Halls (even in the presence of baptized men), but not inside Kingdom Halls. The Bible does not make this distinction of inside or outside buildings.

    Verse 15&16 go well together....
    This "Witness" doctrine ignores verse 15, which indicates that this "head covering" is the natural hair a woman possesses upon her head. 
    Verse 16 shows that this subject should not raise "contention". Paul makes clear that if anyone has a problem with this show of subjection as already cared for by nature itself, that the true churches of God have no such custom of requiring more. This he says to counteract the excessive demands of the Jewish law...which DID require a woman to cover her head in excess of her hair.

    We see that "Jehovah's Witnesses" are doing no better than the Jews, in going beyond what is written (Acts15:28,29; 1Cor.4:6; Matt.23:4; Isa.28:10).

    Finally, verse 10 reads:
    "For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels."
    The "Witnesses" assume that this is speaking of the angelic spirits in heaven. They assume that these angels are lower than mortal women, in that women set a teaching example to these mighty Sons of God. 
    According to the Bible, the PERFECT MAN Christ, was made a little LOWER than the heavenly angels (Psalm8:5; Heb.2:7; Phil.2:7). Now from a perfect man...we must take a BIG step down a notch to go to IMPERFECT SINFUL MAN....and then step down another notch from man to woman. We are told of perfect EVE, that unlike Adam, she was thoroughly deceived (1Tim.2:14). Are we to reason that imperfect women today are really a teaching example to the mighty perfect Sons of God in Heaven???

    Let's see what this verse really means. 
    1Cor.11:10:
    "For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels."
    The symbolism Paul refers to, can be found if we return once again to Eph.5:22,23,24; only this time lets look at what a woman's subjection to her own husband is compared to...
    Verse 23&24 read:
    23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything."

    Did you notice the comparison to Christ and the "Congregation"?
    How does the subjection of the anointed "Congregation" (Christ's own wife/body) compare to "angels"?  (1Cor.12:27,28; 1Cor.3:16)

    It is a fact, according to the Bible, that the "New Creation" of anointed (Christ's wife), are called "angels".
    In order for these "angels" ("Greek" for "messenger")...to prove faithful and be sealed, they must remain in union and subjection to the "head" Christ, as his body. (Matt.22:30; Heb.1:6,7; 1John2:28; 1Cor.6:15; Rev.1:20; 2:8,12, etc.) It is in regards to THESE angels, that Paul makes reference to women showing subjection. A woman's subjection to her OWN HUSBAND, is a visible example to the anointed body of Christ.

    But when you ask, "Can" a woman "reside" over a funeral...I'm not sure if you are asking about the doctrine of Jehovah's witnesses, or the truth of the Bible.
    According to "Witness" doctrine, No...once again, due to the imaginary presence of baptized males.

    If you would like to read about the role of women in the Bible, please consider “Should Women Teach?” on my blog.

    You may learn there, that the Bible expects especially "anointed" women, to work as hard as men in their public teaching. For, in the "body" of Christ, there is "neither male nor female" (Gal.3:28). In that article, you will find the many scriptures that indicate that men and women are equal in God's sight; both in glory and in divine expectations.


    This truth helps to answer your question about "residing over a funeral". My relatives are not Christians. Yet, at the death of a relative, I was asked to give a talk in light of my known familiarity with the Bible. I was able to use the occasion to give a fine witness to many people. Imagine God's disapproval if I had declined that opportunity, in favor of an unscriptural constraint through the doctrines of men! (Mark7:13;2Tim.4:2)
     
     
    (more on 4womaninthewilderness Pearl Doxsey)
  3. Like
    Witness reacted to Srecko Sostar in JW Women and Teaching   
    Would it be acceptable to WT teaching that JW women (sister-single or marriage) be involved in  congregational legal cases (investigations, interrogations, judging) in elder staff meetings when it comes to children (especially female children) and other JW women?
  4. Haha
    Witness reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in Is it considered "passing the plate" ?   
    BINGO!
  5. Like
    Witness reacted to Shiwiii in Is it considered "passing the plate" ?   
    The back cover of Nov 2018 wt magazine has a full page asking "What gift can you give to Jehovah?"  There are a few ways to give your "gift" and are explained. Using your web browser or jw library app, you can set up recurring donations. 
    How is this not equivalent to passing the plate? 
     
  6. Like
    Witness got a reaction from lentaylor71 in Is the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses ‘Inspired’?   
    So every changed teaching; say, about “this generation”, or failed Armageddon dates, was a gift from Christ, because the governing body ASKED for Holy spirit on the matter. 
    Or, did they forget to ask?
    Maybe they are like surgeon generals, or doctors, who cannot lead a spiritual nation because they are not blessed to do so, (unless either one is an authentic "faithful and discreet slave").
    If an anointed one “remains” in Christ, they can ONLY produce good fruit.  Changed doctrine is bad fruit.  There is no in-between or middle road.  Matt 12:33-37  Notice, these anointed “trees”, “will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken.  For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”
    Good and perfect gifts from the Father are very possible to receive if that anointed one remains close to Christ.  James 1:17; Luke 11:13
     “Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
    5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.  John 15:4,5
    Jesus is not speaking about changed teachings; he is speaking about fruit that endures the test of time.  The generation teaching was scrapped – how many times?
    “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.”  John 15:16
    Teaching a changed doctrine, or  prophecies failed, is presumptuousness; not sourced in Holy Spirit. It shows what is in the teacher’s heart.  Luke 6:43-45
    Remember Prov 3:5-7?  Each doctrine that has to be changed or fails is clear evidence that the governing body lean on their own understanding. 
  7. Like
    Witness got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in Is the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses ‘Inspired’?   
    Check it out...
    Which change was the result of Christ's direction and not the Wt leaders' own understanding?

  8. Thanks
    Witness got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in Is the Governing body still "spirit directed"?   
    This always bothered me too, until I kept reading...
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+20%3A9-18&version=NKJV
  9. Like
    Witness got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in Why doesn't All-Powerful Jehovah Protect Young Witness Girls from Pedophiles in the Congregation?   
    Well there is this one, from 2/1/1983
    My son pointed out the picture of Zeus in the woman’s skirt when he was just 10 years old.  It was later that I saw the angelÂ’s right twisted leg and “hoof” that really raised an eyebrow.
    No angel of God there, protecting those women in their preaching work!
    Sure.  There are subliminal images all through the history of the Watchtower.  And sure, JWs will always figure out an excuse for them, which is just what Satan wants them to do.
    Jesus answered them, “Be careful that no one leads you astray.  For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will lead many astray.”  Matt 24:4,5
    Yes, fully accomplished by those “ambassadors substituting for Christ. NWT 2 Cor 5:20
    Substituting:  “If you substitute one thing for another, or if one thing substitutes for another, it takes the place or performs the function of the other thing.”
    This is how the GB gets away with expecting the obedience of all anointed and all JWs.  They are “performing” as if they are Christ. 
    “Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.”  KJV 2 Cor 5:20
    Ambassadors are messengers, coming as representatives of someone.  The anointed priesthood are to bear Christ’s message, not replace him.  Mal 2:7; 1 Pet 2:5,9  Any anointed one who wants to “substitute” for Christ has an ulterior motive – power over others. I wonder how many times the magazines refer to the corrupted form of 2 Cor 5:20.  THAT is the “subliminal” message being taken to the door.  God would not bless such a message or the messengers who present it.
     
     
     

  10. Sad
  11. Upvote
    Witness got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in Is the Governing body still "spirit directed"?   
    David Splane – “Decisions of the Faithful and Discreet Slave”
    “The Governing Body loves to get together and discuss the bible, and when those bibles come out on the table, and when the brothers bring their research in, and they’re starting to search the scriptures and analyze the scriptures, you see the happiest smiles on their faces.
    The brothers love discussing spiritual things.
    But the clarifications are often a long time in coming into print. Why. Because the clarification on one scripture can have a domino effect on others.
    The clarification on one scripture can have ramifications on other prophesies. SO WE HAVE TO BE ABSOLUTELY SURE THAT EVERYTHING FITS.
    So, to reiterate, although certain changes may be announced one after another, these decisions are thought out very carefully.
    Here’s an interesting side point. The older members of the GB, Brother Jaracz, Brother Barr were just as interested in making the adjustments as the younger members were. They were very progressive.”
    On becoming privy to the process of how the GB reaches decisions, we discern just what truly is their priority. There is no mention of Holy Spirit guiding these men, no articulation made of a prayerful interchange; but as we can see, their own “thoughts” are the driving force to change.
    “So we have to be absolutely sure everything fits”. Whose puzzle are they building, one crafted by men, or do they carry the wisdom of God?
    Has Christ yet to hand them the missing piece of their own thought-provoking puzzle? 
    Time and projected failures prove that their puzzle is becoming more disheveled by the moment.
    “For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate. Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?” 1 Cor 1:19,20
    Please, JWs, think of how the apostles were led, and how they never failed to acknowledge the Holy Spirit that filled their HEART. 2 Cor 1:21,22; 2 Tim 1:14 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…
    “These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. “ 1 Cor 2:13,14
    Any of us can research the Bible, but if these men are teaching millions to rely on the Holy Spirit to direct them in GodÂ’s Word, shouldnÂ’t they also prove that they do the same?
    “BUT THE THINGS THAT COME OUT OF A PERSON’S MOUTH COME FROM THE HEART, and these defile them. For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, FALSE TESTIMONY, slander.” Matt 15:18,19
    The words of David Splane verify what inhabits the hearts of the Governing Body. Even wicked thoughts bring smiles, to those with evil intentions.
    "Scoundrels use wicked methods,
    they make up evil schemes
    to destroy the poor with lies,
    even when the plea of the needy is just." Isa 32:7
    “Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.” Matt 15:14
     
     

  12. Like
    Witness got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in What was the reasoning behind not reporting such crimes?   
    Why spoil this superficial image that the organization tries desperately to maintain?
    “Watch Yourselves for You Are Being Watched!”
    Watchtower 1960 8/15 pp 503-508 - Instead of producing the “works of the flesh,” what kind of fruitage do witnesses of Jehovah bear?  12 So it is, by observing the conduct of Jehovah’s witnesses, people see that here is a good, upright and godly organization. …
    They also see that here is a clean and virtuous organization whose members have “put off the works belonging to darkness,” who are not walking “in revelries and drunken bouts, not in illicit intercourse and loose conduct, not in strife and jealousy,” and who are not “planning ahead for the desires of the flesh.
    “People of good will also see this tremendous difference and they are attracted to this clean organization, recognizing that here Jehovah’s spirit is dwelling.”—2 John 10, 11.
    Now that we know what lies under the surface –we should be able to surmise God’s spirit does not dwell in the Watchtower.
    “Woe to those who call evil good
        and good evil,
    who put darkness for light
        and light for darkness,
    who put bitter for sweet
        and sweet for bitter.
    21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
        and clever in their own sight. (Matt 24:48-51)
    22 Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine (Rev 14:8; 18:3)
        and champions at mixing drinks,
    23 who acquit the guilty for a bribe,
        but deny justice to the innocent.  Isa 5:20-23
     
  13. Like
    Witness reacted to Srecko Sostar in SIX SCREENS OF THE WATCHTOWER   
    Nice comparison. In material sense we can compare Jesus and Widow to some level. Before, until he came to age 30 Jesus making jobs and perhaps earn some "money" ( ohhh this money issue again :))))). Was he and his family poor or "middle class" Jew people. Guess he have simple (in material way) life, modest family.
    How contrary in compare to nowadays religious leaders (even WT leaders about whom you hold back to make any comments)  who making big, expensive and modern worshiping centers, headquarters and handle with millions (currency).   
     
  14. Upvote
    Witness got a reaction from James Thomas Rook Jr. in Apostate Attack   
    Dear Nicole, 
    How is it that they are “mentally ill”, these “professional” apostates?  Was their language foul?  Were their stories insincere?  Were they physically aggressive?   Did they personally abuse anyone?
    It would seem to me that one is mentally ill when an elder or elder body chooses to harbor a pedophile in the organization; deliberately ignoring the large chance that another innocent one may be victimize, because of their insane decision to handle the matter ‘in house’.
    We know where that leads, don’t we. 
    Just saying.  
  15. Downvote
    Witness got a reaction from DespicableME in Silent lambs: Child sexual abuse and the Jehovah’s Witnesses   
    Watchtower 14/11/15 
    The flocking of many humans to worship Jehovah with his people in this time of the end was foretold by two ancient prophets. Isaiah prophesied: “Many peoples will go and say: ‘Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.’ For law will go out of Zion, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem.” (Isa. 2:2, 3)
    If, therefore, we wish to benefit from Jehovah’s protection during the great tribulation, we must recognize that Jehovah has a people on earth, organized into congregations. We must continue to take our stand with them and remain closely associated with our local congregation. With all our hearts, may we join the psalmist in proclaiming: “Salvation belongs to Jehovah. Your blessing is upon your people.” —Ps. 3:8.
    Protection?  Blessings?  Have you considered how a victim of abuse feels about this?
    Tell me, JWs, when the court systems of the world must alert and teach JWs to show compassion and righteous judgment to victims of child abuse, where is the “law that goes out from Zion” – GOD’S LAW?
    Does this organization protect and nurture, through the teaching of God’s law which is far superior than any court law of the land?  The “law” is found in the hearts of the anointed priests and kings that YOU refuse to recognize due to your submission to a Harlot/false prophet/ Wicked Slave; and her muscle, the elder body carrying out their own version of God’s laws. Isa 43:10; I Pet 2:5,9,10; Heb 8:10; Rev 13:1,6,7,11,14-17; Matt 24:48-51
    WAKE UP!  It can’t be excused away that this organization  IS Zion, yet offers no protection or blessing from the true God, YHWH. It is all, a delusion.  2 Thess 2:9-12
    Mount Zion, in all its glory, is NOT FOUND IN SATAN’S WORLD, called the “mountainlike organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses” but in the hearts of righteous faithful anointed ones,  who LEAVE THIS LIE BEHIND.   Many others, have found it to be “neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, the now “apostate city” of Harlots and their hardened hearts. 2 Chron 7:14  “God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”  John 4:21-24
    “What are you, mighty mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become level ground. Then he will bring out the capstone to shouts of ‘God bless it! God bless it!’”  Zech 4:7
    “The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, 9 a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.”  Rev 8:8,9
    It is blasphemy to believe that the cornerstone of God’s Zion/Temple (1 Pet 2:6) and his fulfillment of the “law” based on love, would approve of such twisting of God’s decrees, by men who trust only in themselves. Isa 2:22
    YHWH’s Genuine Mountain – Pearl Doxsey 4womaninthewilderness
     https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/362404/silent-lambs-child-sexual-abuse-and-the-jehovah-s-witnesses
     
     edited for sentence structure
     
  16. Like
    Witness got a reaction from Judith Sweeney in JESUS, MICHAEL, AND THE CHIEF PRINCES   
    Pearl Doxsey, July 2, 2018:
    Many refute that Michael the archangel is an identity of Jesus Christ, in his capacity as protector of the saints (Dan.12:1;John17:12; 6:39; 18:9; Rev.19:12) and defender of God's supremacy in the face of global idolatry (Rev.13:8,4) 
    (The name "Michael" means, "Who is like God?").
    Those who refute that role of the resurrected Jesus Christ, point to the fact that Jesus could not be a mere angel, even if being, an arch - angel. 
    Those who make such an assertion, apparently do not know the meaning of the Greek word, angelos. It simply means "messenger" (John12:49; 7:16). 
    The Greek meaning of "arch", is defined as the original prototype, with no equal. To be the "archangel", is to be supreme among God's messengers. 
    When Armageddon arrives, Jesus takes on an identity of a warrior (Rev.19:11,14; 17:14; 12:7) (Rev.3:12; Jer.31:33; Heb.10:16;Ex.34:14; Deut.11:18; Rev.7:3; 13:7,8,16,4). The name "Michael" ("Who is like God?"), perfectly describes his battle tactic and purpose, and indicates the target of his warfare that needs to be neutralized by the strategy reflected in that victorious name (Isa.40:25,18; 46:5) (Rev.13:14).

    Others may refute this named role of Jesus, based upon Michael being called "the great prince" (Dan.12:1) and "one of the chief princes" (Dan.10:12-14). Those are the topics that the link below, addresses.
    The article on the chief princes was broken down into three parts/questions. Previously, only part one was finished. This post serves as notice, that part two is now ready.
    June 6, 2015:
    QUESTION:

    "does the Bible shed light on how many Chief Princes are there and who they are as stated in Daniel 10:13 Michael, one of the chief princes"

    MY REPLY:

    Yes, the Bible sheds light on how many Chief Princes there are,
    who these chief princes are, and who all the princes are, among whom there are chief princes.
    Accordingly, I will answer your question in three parts.
    1. Who are all the "princes"?
    2. Who are the "chief princes" among all these princes?
    3. Who is The "Great Prince" ("arch-angel") mentioned at Dan.12:1?
        (Jude1:9; Dan.10:21; 8:25; Acts 3:15)
        (Jude1:9; Job 1:8-11; Zech.3:1-2; Rev.12:10 --
                      "Moses" -Deut.18:15,18; Heb.3:5; Matt.16:28; 17:1-3,5; 2Pet.1:18; Rev.14:1)
    -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -

    1. Who are the Bible's princes?

    I will limit my reply to the princes of God's covenant woman, and not include the princes of Satan's covenant of death
    (Eph.2:2; Isa.31:9; Eze.21:25; 22:27; 38:3; Dan.9:26; 10:20; Zeph.3:3; Rev.18:23; 9:7).

    The princes under the Great "guardian" Prince/Rescuer, (Dan.12:1; Isa.49:24-25; Matt.12:29; Rev.20:1-2; Luke10:19), who is Christ,
         (Isa.9:6; Dan.9:25; 12:1; John17:12; 6:39; 10:28; Matt.28:20),
    are the kings under the great king (Rev.19:16; 1:5; 3:21; 5:9,10; Eph.2:6; 1:22; Col.1:13).

    They are also considered by God, Christ's sons, because by means of Christ, they receive spirit life (John10:10; 20:22; 6:63; 5:21;17:2; Rom.8:9,10,11,13; 1John4:9,13; 5:11-12; 2:25; John3:6,15,36; 6:47,48,51,57,63; 10:28; Heb.5:9). "But", you may protest, "don't we all become 'sons of God'?". Yes. But there is more to it.---

    Within the Bible, forefathers are multiple. This tradition is a cultural difference from most modern day societies. 
    Please let me explain...
    Within the Bible, living faithful can have more than one father... both God and Christ (Isa.9:6).  Christ received his life from God first, before he can pass that incorruptible seed to those after him (1Pet.1:23; Luke8:11; John12:49; 6:63; James1:21).
    "Grandfather" is not in the Bible's language. This is why Abraham, David, Jacob, etc., are considered "fathers" of many subsequent generations. 
    All the generations of their descendants, have all of these as "fathers"
    (Zech.1:2,4-6; Acts3:13; 7:19; John8:39; Ex.3:6; Luke1:32; Matt.1:1), regardless of how many generations may come and go in between.

    Accordingly, we should not limit the spiritual lineage of those born of spirit, to either God or Christ as "father". Such ones are "sons" of both. Yet some are born of God's spirit directly (Rom.8:16; Heb.2:11), and others, through Christ and his bride (1Cor.15:45; Gal.4:26; Rev.22:17). 
    You may have noticed that within the scriptures, our spiritual fathers are the ones whom we imitate (John8:39,44; Eph.5:1;1Pet.1:16; Matt.5:44,45,48).  We can therefore, also be sons of Christ (1Pet.2:21) and of the sealed faithful (1Cor.11:1;4:15,14,16,17; 1John2:13,14; Philemon 1:10; Luke1:17; Phil.2:22; 3:17; 1Thess.2:11; 1:6) (Mal.4:5-6). 


    Hopefully, all these previous scriptures have helped to establish within your understanding, that whoever we imitate and do the will of, becomes our spiritual father (Eph.5:1; Matt.12:50; 7:21; 1John2:17; Rom.8:14) -- (Eph.2:2; John8:44). 
    If you do grasp that imitating Christ (1Cor.11:1; 1Pet.2:21) can make us his son, it will then be easier to grasp who the "princes" are. 

    First, lets look at Ps.45:16, which speaks of the dominion of Christ.

    "In place of your fathers will be your sons;
    You shall make them princes in all the earth."

    In place of Christ's kingly forefathers (Luke1:32; Isa.9:7; Matt.12:42), will come his spiritual sons (Heb.2:1-9,14,13,16; Isa.8:18;John10:28,29; 6:37-39; 17:2; 1Pet.1:5; Matt.18:3; 19:14), with whom he shares his kingdom (Ps.132:12; 110:2; Rev.3:21; 14:1;Jer.17:25; Eze.37:25; 34:24) (Heb.2:5,16; Rom.4:13; Gal.3:29; Gen.28:13,14; 13:14,15).
    They become co-kings (2Tim.2:12; Rev.5:9,10; 20:6) and co-princes (Isa.10:8; 9:6; Acts3:15; 5:31; Isa.32:1,2).
    As heirs of the earth, these will heal creation (Rom.8:19; Rev.22:1,2; 21:2-5; Jer.17:7,8; Matt.7:20; Eze.36:8), and also provide a "fatherly" example, that leads to life (1Cor.4:15-17; Phil.3:17; 4:9; 2Thess.3:9; 1Thess.1:6; 2Tim.3:14,15; Heb.13:7; 1Pet.5:3).
    From the foregoing reply to the first question...
    "Who are all the princes?";
    I hope you now perceive, that all those redeemed from death by Christ (Rev.5:9,10; 1Cor.15:54-55; Acts20:28) which "church" is the chosen saints of God's household (1Tim.3:15; 1Cor.14:33; 1Pet.2:10,9), are given fatherly life by Christ's blood...
           (through the new mother covenant of promise/sealed Bride
               -Gal.4:26,24; Matt.26:28; Rom.9:8; Rev.12:2; Gal.4:19; Eph.4:13; 1Thess.2:7; 3John1:4) 
    ...These are his "sons", referred to as "princes" at Psalm 45:16.
    As such, they become "heirs of the earth" 
    (Rom.4:13; Gal.3:29; Heb.2:5,16; Matt.5:5; Psalm.37:11,22,29)
    and are, 
    "all the princes".

    2. Who are the "chief princes" among all these princes?

    Based upon the facts established above, we can re-word this question as, "Who are the "chief saints/sons of God" among all the saints/anointed chosen and holy ones?". Does such a position, exist? Please consider:
    Luke 12:42; John 21:17
    Although all members of the "one body" bride of Christ (Eph.5:31-32; 1Cor.6:17) are needed by all other members (1Cor.12:21,25;4:7); each has their own assignment (1Cor.12:14,4-7,18,11,20; Eph.4:8,11-12). 
    Some are given more responsibility (Luke 12:42; Mark 13:34; Matt.25:14-15; James 3:1; 1Cor.12:24,26; Luke 14:8,10-11), as "chief princes". How does the Bible describe the position held by those appointed as such?
    One of the symbols used to describe the body of Christ, is as God's Temple (Rom.12:5; 1Cor.3:16; 1Pet.2:5,9-10; Col.1:13).
    Jesus, is described as the cornerstone of that Temple (1Pet.2:6-8; Matt.7:24-25). If we build our faith upon the teachings of that cornerstone, we will not be put to shame but all we teach, will be proven true (Rom.10:11; 3:4; John7:16-18). Can you perceive how the symbolic "chief" cornerstone of our faith (remember, "chief princes"?), is the first symbolic foundation to our worship in spirit and truth? 
    If so, then we are starting to build the Temple of God, within your perception. If the "chief cornerstone" is the "great prince"/"chief prince" (Dan.12:1)... What about the other "chief princes" (Dan.10:13)? Does the Bible describe the rest of God's symbolic Temple, as having other foundation stones, upon which our faith needs to be chiefly built upon?
    Please consider Eph.2:20-22; 3:5; Rev.21:14; 1:20; Dan.12:3-4; Phil.2:15; 2Cor.11:4; Gal.1:8-9; Luke12:42; 1Pet.5:2;Heb.13:17; 1Cor.4:15)
    1Cor.12:28 and Eph.2:20, clarify the arrangement of authority ("chiefs") within the congregation, appointed by God and Christ. The apostles are our foundation stones, along with Jesus the cornerstone, of the truth. 
    ---No one can remain in union with the cornerstone and head of the body, if they leave the teachings of the apostles, whom he appointed as fatherly heads to the 12 tribes of spiritual Israel (Matt.3:9; Gal.3:29,26; Rom.2:28-29; Rev.7:7; 21:11-12,14). 
    ---No one can remain in union with the unfolding direction of holy spirit, if they leave the declarations and warnings of the genuine and faithful prophets, whose foundation is the right hand of Jesus (Rev.1:20; 22:6; Amos 3:7; 2Pet.1:21; 1Cor.14:32-33;Rev.11:3-5; Jer.23:29; Zech.4:11-14,6; Hosea 6:5; Rev.22:6; Mal.3:1-3; Rev.11:3). Those "stars" provide the light of spirit to each of their assigned "lampstands" (Rev.1:20), which lampstands hold up, and work to make visible (Matt.5:14-15; Eph.2:19;Gal.6:10), the prophet/"star" whom they support (Heb.6:10).
    We have learned that the symbolic foundation to the Temple of God's spirit (1Cor.3:16), is the truth of the apostles and the spirit of the prophets (Eph.2:20; 3:5). They are both necessary if a disciple is to lay a foundation of faith and worship, upon spirit and truth (John4:24). The apostles and prophets who produce spiritual food sourced in the spirit and truth from Christ (John15:4-5,8,16;Rev.22:1-2), are the "chief princes"/foundation stones. They are aligned with the cornerstone, and provide a basis upon which the living stones of the Temple of God, rest.

    3. Who is The "Great Prince" ("arch-angel") mentioned at Dan.12:1?
    Dan.12:1 reads; “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered."

    [Before I go into Part 3: The Great Prince; I would like to offer additional information on other points made by Dan.12:1. 
    First, the unprecedented "time of distress". Here is a link to start off the information about the Great Tribulation (Matt.24:21)

    Second, the Book of the Lamb, within which the names of the delivered, are written (Rev.13:8; 21:27; 3:5; 17:8; 20:15,12)

    (TO BE CONTINUED)
    Pearl Doxsey – “WHO ARE THE CHIEF PRINCES?”
    4womaninthewilderness
  17. Upvote
    Witness got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in Ever lose patience with recalcitrant contrarians ?   
    Sorry.  This is what I was generally reacting to.  There is no support for the "weak", the victims of abuse.  I see the governing body/organization on the receiving end of donations, time, energy, the slaving of members including the very victims they refuse to give protection from pedophiles.   Even in a court of law the org. refuse to "give".   
    Yet, the GB will tell you how much 'giving' they have done for the sheep by providing failed "food at the proper time".
    It is sheer hypocrisy.  
    In the long run, the "recalcitrant contrarians" will have to face Christ for their actions.  
  18. Like
    Witness got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in Ever lose patience with recalcitrant contrarians ?   
    I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”  Acts 20:35
     

  19. Thanks
    Witness got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in Changing have positive and negative connotations. JW are Restorationism? By changing their own previous Restoration?   
    “Be careful,” Jesus said to them. “Be on your guard against the yeast (leaven) of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” Matt 16:6
    Strong's G2219 for "leaven" - ζύμη zýmē - ferment (as if boiling up)
    blueletterbible's comment:  "Leaven is applied to that substance which is small in quantity, yet thoroughly pervades a thing by its influence.  The NT uses it in both a positive (Matt 13:33  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+13%3A33&version=NIV)  or negative sense."
    Watchtower's foundation began with a lie, thoroughly pervading every aspect of its existence, by compounding lie after lie.   
    God and Christ are not behind this route of crooked teachings.  Matt 7:24-27 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7%3A24-27&version=NIV
    "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you."  John 15:16
     
     
     
     
  20. Like
  21. Haha
  22. Downvote
    Witness got a reaction from biddy2331@gmail.com in Should we close our ears to rebels? or opposers?   
    Where does the judgment of the wheat and the weeds occur? Remembering that the entire realm of mankind is judged for their works, God’s anointed ones and those with them, are judged using different parameters.  Christ’s parable is speaking about his chosen anointed ones.  John 12:31,32; 1 Pet 4:17 
    “The field is the world, the * good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.”  Matt 13:38  
    * sealed anointed ones. 
    “The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will gather out of his Kingdom (his anointed Body of priests and kings Luke 12:32; Rev 1:6)  all things that cause stumbling, and those who do iniquity,  and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be weeping and the gnashing of teeth.  Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear. Matt 13:41-43
    So you see, God’s priestly kings are being judged for whom they serve.  They must be “pure and blameless” of all falsehoods before serving God and Jesus, eternally, as the Bride of Christ. Phil 2:14-16; Rev 14:5
     Within the Watchtower, the governing body expects them to obey not only themselves, but the elder body, who have been exalted as deserving of obedience even by God’s personally chosen priesthood.  Only Christ is our mediator, but with great deception, the governing body has assumed that role.  1 Tim 2:5
    All who are under the Beasts of Revelation, now face judgment.  The anointed “wheat” join Christ, as do all those who also reject falsehoods, a.k.a, “new light”. The road to life is a narrow one, while the road clearly depicted in the magazines is filled with people of all nations, including those anointed who believe they will walk safely out of Armageddon, and into a paradise.  1 Thess 5:1-3; Rev 6:15-17
    “for this people’s heart has grown callous,
        their ears are dull of hearing,
        they have closed their eyes;
    or else perhaps they might perceive with their eyes,
        hear with their ears,
        understand with their heart,
    and would turn again;
        and I would heal them.’  Matt 13:15
    When Jeremiah proclaimed similar words as the scripture in Rev 18:4, he was speaking to God’s people under covenant with Him. Jer 51:6  They had sinned greatly, forgetting God’s decrees and falling into idolatry – spiritual immorality.  Today, the anointed priesthood are God’s people under covenant with God.  Isa 43:10; 1 Pet 2:5,9,10 They are not in Christendom, but are found already gathered in the organization/Beast of Rev 13:1;16:13,14  Satan has deceived them, and you, hunting them down through a false “preaching work”, enticing them with bits of truth.   God has allowed it to come upon them as 2 Thess 2:11,12 shows us.  Satan demands to “sift” them as “wheat”, just as he tempted Christ with what his earthly realm has to offer.   All JWs, with the anointed, are also being sifted on this “threshing floor”.  Luke 3:17; 4:1-13   
     Where do you direct your love – is it to the Father and Christ only as they expect, or is it to an organization that oppresses God’s holy people with an “army”/elder body, who has taken its seat in His Temple?   God’s Word shows us it can’t be both.  Rev 13:1,6,7;9:1,3,4;Matt 22:37-40 
    Will you listen to Christ’s voice? –
    “You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,  yet you refuse to come to me to have life.”  John 5:39,40
    “And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her (Harlot/false prophet Beast from the earth/governing body Rev 13:11) sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. 6 *Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her. 7 In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’ 8 Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.  Rev 18:4-8
    *“She” approves the disfellowshipping (spiritual “killing”) of God’s anointed priesthood for rejecting “her” lies, and for usurping the position of Christ, as their Head.  Matt 24:48-51; Rev 13:11,14-17
     
     
     
     
  23. Confused
    Witness got a reaction from peaches60 in Should we close our ears to rebels? or opposers?   
    Dear sami,
    Some scriptures have links.  For those that don’t, I do hope you look into the Bible and read.
    What is your definition of “false doctrine”?  Being labeled an apostate by the Watchtower is the rejection of their own teachings unique to the organization.  If I believe in the Father and Christ, and are guided by God’s Word, I am not an apostate according to God’s Word.
    We’ll start by seeing what the Watchtower says about its prophetic abilities:
    "Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a 'prophet' of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show?" (Watchtower April 1, 1972, p. 197)
    What does the records show?  Let’s look at just a few examples over a hundred year span. 
    "In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the kingdom of God, will be accomplished by the end of A.D. 1914." (The Time Is At Hand, 1902 edition, p. 99)
    The "Gentile Times" prove that the present governments must all be overturned about the close of 1915 A.D." Studies In the Scriptures Series II - The Time Is At Hand 1915 ed. pp.99, 101, 242
    "Shortly, within our twentieth century, the "battle in the day of Jehovah" will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom." The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah p. 216
    (We are now in the 21st century.)
    “"Logically, the calling of the little flock would draw to a close when the number was nearing completion, and the evidence is that the general gathering of these specially blessed ones ended in 1935." Watchtower 1995 Feb 15 p.19
    Logically?  Apparently not.
    "Thus it appears that we cannot set a specific date for when the calling of Christians to the heavenly hope ends." Watchtower 2007 May 1 p.31
    Your Awake magazines before 11/8/1995, use to have this statement on the inner cover:
     "Why Awake is Published" “Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away." 
    That generation who saw the events of 1914 is no longer alive!  The magazine now states:
    "Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure world that is about to replace the present wicked, lawless system of things."
    Do you hear Christ’s voice in any of these teachings?  Did your leaders hear Christ’s voice when they fabricated such teachings?   The failed doctrines of “this generation” are so twisted and so plentiful I chose not to list them.  But, I encourage you to check out Watchtower’s lengthy history of changed teachings regarding it.  It is JWs who follow a “Judas goat”/false prophets, putting their lives in jeopardy.  Jer 5:31  Jesus said we would recognize both false prophets and those he sends by the “fruit”/teachings they produce which is to last – not be discarded as you would toss aside a rotten apple.  John 15:4-8,16;13:20; Matt 24:4,5
    Have you ever read the following scriptures?
    Moses speaking:
    “The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear,  according to all you desired of the Lord your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.’
    17 “And the Lord said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. 18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.”  Deut 18:15-22
    Simply, the “prophets” of the organization since its inception have and continue to speak presumptuously on behalf of God, or in the name of another “god” (Jehovah’s organization)…and fail time and time again in their “predictions”.  There really is no wiggle room to get around what God predicts as their outcome. 
    Jesus did not forego speaking up for Truth and exposing lies.  Those of Christ’s Body – the anointed ones – must also speak up for Truth, especially among each other.  2 Cor 10:4,5
     
    The entire world is pressing its nose against Watchtower's windows.  No longer, can Watchtower hide its secrets.  Disfellowshipping has caused thousands to lose connection with their families; it has driven people to take their life; yet, I believe JWs seem to take all of this with tongue in cheek.  Victims of child abuse by other members of the organization, have been disfellowshipped; while perpetrators remain in the congregation.  I am sorry that you are so indoctrinated, you cannot see the lack of love among your leaders, who have twisted this form of counsel - into a catalyst of hate and destruction. This should be enacted by the anointed priesthood under their loving Head, Christ.  Mal 2:7; 1 Pet 2:5,9; John 21:16; Heb 8:10; Rom 13:10; Heb 8:5,6  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+16%3A24-27%3B+Isa+57%3A13%3B++Rev+13%3A11%2C12%2C15%3B+11%3A3%2C7&version=NKJV
    Your use of John 10:27 reminded me of a time in the JW “preaching work” with a woman who approached a man working in his yard. When he rejected her message, she walked away calling out loudly, “Christ’s sheep know his voice”.  This puzzled me, since our message was based on “Jehovah”, the organization, a paradise only obtainable through the organization, and the kingdom that supposedly began in 1914. I wondered if I had personally heard Christ’s voice. To believe that you have, while in the organization is pure folly. The governing body’s voices are much louder and much more demanding than Christ’s.  1 Cor 7:23; Rom 6:16; Matt 11:28-30  It wasn’t until leaving the Wt. did I “hear” his voice, unclouded by men’s doctrine loaded with falsehood.  I learned it was okay to respond to his voice in prayer, something that your Pharisee-like leaders tell you not to do.  John 6:68,69    Ask yourself, who’s voice are you really hearing?  Jesus did say those who hear his voice, follow him. John 10:27     https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Cor+7%3A23%3B+Rom+6%3A16%3B+Matt+11%3A28-30%3B+John+6%3A68%2C69+&version=NKJV
     “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.”  John 10:1-5
    An earthly corporation with many earthly holdings, is not the gate/door to salvation. Matt 6:24; Acts 4:12   Clearly, if you read the scriptures, Jesus is the gate, and the shepherd of his sheep. John 10:9  I am relieved and blessed I now recognize Christ’s voice.  It is no longer a stranger to me.  I am so grateful I ‘ran away’ from the thieves, your leaders, who preach “another Jesus” deliberately, to mislead the flock.    2 Cor 11:3,4; Ps 52:1-7  
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+6%3A24%3B+Acts+4%3A12%3B+John+10%3A9%3B+2+Cor+11%3A3%2C4%3B+Ps+52%3A1-7&version=NKJV
    “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide (Watchtower organization) is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”  Matt 7:13,14
    Regarding 2 Thess 2:7.  I really hope you can put aside your defense for the organization and try to engage yourself in these scriptures.
    2 Thess 2:7 – (AMP)  “For the mystery of lawlessness [rebellion against divine authority and the coming reign of lawlessness] is already at work; [but it is restrained] only until he who now restrains it is taken out of the way. “
    2 Thess 2:6 – “And you know what restrains him now [from being revealed]; it is so that he will be revealed at his own [appointed] time.”
    This lawlessness is not accomplished by one person, but a collective reign -  a power that has now been revealed.  The “day of the Lord” is prophesied to have come in 1914 by your literature.
     Look what 2 Thess 2: 1,2 says about this:
    “Now in regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to meet Him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to be quickly unsettled or alarmed either by a [so-called prophetic revelation of a] spirit or a message or a letter [alleged to be] *from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] come.” 
    *”from us” – from other anointed ones, but who have “gone out” from the Body.  1 John 2:19
    In other words, you should reject Watchtower’s “revelation” about 1914!  Why?
    “Let no one in any way deceive or entrap you, for that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first [that is, the great rebellion, the abandonment of the faith by professed Christians], and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction [the Antichrist, the one who is destined to be destroyed], 4 who opposes and exalts himself [so proudly and so insolently] above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he [actually enters and] takes his seat in the temple of God, publicly proclaiming that he himself is God.”  2 Thess 2:3,4
    There is only one temple of God, found in the hearts of the anointed ones.  Can you envision this?  John 2:19-22; Acts 4:11;  Matt 16:18; Eph 2:20-22  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+2%3A19-22%3B+Acts+4%3A11%3B++Matt+16%3A18%3B+Eph+2%3A20-22&version=NKJV
    To te anointed ones of his time, Paul said:
    Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple. 1 Cor 3:16,17
    How would a collective “man of lawlessness” reign, or “take his seat” over the anointed priesthood of God?  It has developed gradually, and it is within the organization where the anointed are found.  The elder body are, in God’s sight, “foreigners” standing in the Temple of God. 2 Chron 23:6,7; Num 18:7; Ezek 44:6-9 They have been given authority by the administrating anointed ones (GB) to “rule” God’s personal “heritage” – His chosen people.  Isa 43:10; 1 Pet 2:5,9,10; Matt 24:48-51  This is the lawlessness at work among those who “profess” to be Christians.  2 Chron 13:9  
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Chron+23%3A6%2C7%3B+Num+18%3A7%3B+Ezek+44%3A6-9%3BIsa+43%3A10%3B+1+Pet+2%3A5%2C9%2C10%3B+Matt+24%3A48-51%3B+2+Chron+13%3A9++&version=NKJV
     
    Do you know where we can find further description of this present “lawlessness”? It is in the Beast of Revelation 13:1,18, and the 4th Beast of Daniel’s image. (Dan 7:7)
    This Beast, (Rev 13:1) along with Revelation’s false prophet (Rev 13:11) unitedly work together to claim power over the “holy ones.”  Rev 13:6,7; Dan 12:7  YOU reside with the anointed ones.  YOU accept the lawless rule over them, and over yourself.   When Jesus prophesied that a “disgusting thing” would be found in the temple, it was a two-fold prophesy.  It came upon the city of Jerusalem leading to its destruction by a Gentile Roman army.  It has appeared again upon the “New Jerusalem”/Temple of God – the anointed Body of Christ. Matt 24:15,16; Rev 11:1-3  Those who are not anointed as spiritual “Israel”, are spiritual “Gentiles”.  Rom 2:28,29; Rev 7:4  The elder body is by far, not anointed.
    Christ’s voice is heard by those who reject the Beasts and their great deception to come against the “remaining ones of the woman’s seed”.  Rev 12:17  I do hope you ask God if you are on the side of pure, unadulterated by falsehoods, TRUTH, since you are seeing the effects of the battle of truth against lies.  Those anointed “kings” who side with Christ in truth, against anointed “kings” who side with Satan and his delusion.  2 Thess 2:9-12; Rev 20:7-9
    2 Thess 2:9,10  (AMP)“The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them]. 11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.”
    Do you believe the lie that Christ approves of failed doctrines?  That God approves an organization that must be cherished and revered as one’s path to salvation over His Son?  Do you believe the anointed ones, God’s true priesthood/teachers must remain apart from one another in the organization as your leaders teach you? Do you believe the organization is “spirit-directed” by God, when its leaders have admitted they personally, are not?   All of these things are what the Watchtower teaches. 
     
     
     
     
     
     
  24. Haha
    Witness got a reaction from Foreigner in SIX SCREENS OF THE WATCHTOWER   
    Space Merchant,
    If there is any possibility of a "weapon bunker", it would be at Warwick, not under kingdom halls.   Before that, the Brooklyn tunnels, maybe....  All speculation.
    Maybe this research will help.  http://www.die-vierte-wache.eu/EN/share-earnings-of-the-watchtower.html
    The link, “Website of NCC” is broken
    This is the one I used: https://nccs.urban.org/
    I clicked “Charity Navigator”, typed in “Henrietta M Riley Trust 33b006006 FBO” and opened the documents below.  I had to sign up in order to gain access. 
    We all know this Trust “supports the Watchtower”, and that this stock is “shared”,  but no one has them chained to it.  They freely profit from the listed companies, no matter what they stand for, no matter what they sell; and they have done so for a number of years now.   
    The Raytheon Company was on the 2009 tax return (see link above) which is not available on Charity Navigator any longer.
    http://990s.foundationcenter.org/990pf_pdf_archive/386/386043103/386043103_201504_990PF.pdf
    http://990s.foundationcenter.org/990pf_pdf_archive/386/386043103/386043103_201504_990PF.pdf
    http://990s.foundationcenter.org/990pf_pdf_archive/386/386043103/386043103_201604_990PF.pdf
    http://990s.foundationcenter.org/990pf_pdf_archive/386/386043103/386043103_201704_990PF.pdf
    For 2017, there is not a comprehensive list of companies as do the other returns, but only the title, “Various Stock Funds”.  The GB must be getting nervous.  ?  At one time, these documents were available on Charity Navigator back to 2003, I believe.
    I typed in Watchtower Bible and Tract Society just to see what pulled up.  Interestingly, I am guessing a rogue kh, in Cortez, CO was available for donations.  Is this the new “donation arrangement”?  Are they getting that desperate?  Cortez is a very small town, and having been there many times, there isn’t any Watchtower complex on the edge of the Colorado/New Mexico/Utah border to warrant the need to rake in charity monies.  
    You may already be aware of Watchtower’s interest in Rand Cam:
    https://www.watchtowerlies.com/watchtower_owns_warfare_technology.html
    See the sources at the bottom of the page
     
  25. Confused
    Witness got a reaction from Foreigner in SIX SCREENS OF THE WATCHTOWER   
    SM – my point is, I don’t really care what the Watchtower may or may not have “bunkered” away.  The bigger evil is played out in the “heavenly” realm and affects the motivation of its leaders. Yet, anything is possible by an organization that practices spiritual deceit and lacks integrity toward upholding God’s Word. Eph 6:12
    The Watchtower is not in the dark concerning where the trust money comes from, but the rank and file have been for years.  I suppose if there was a brothel listed among the companies you may take a different view of this trust money coming into the hands of the Watchtower?  You are on the other side of the Watchtower fence.  Although you have nicely explained how the trust funds develop and are used, the truth is, the money has been accrued and used by the very organization that teaches its members to be “no part of the world”.  The money the Watchtower open-handedly accepts with no questions comes from companies that its members would be disfellowshipped for working for.  In fact, they may not be approved for baptism if working for a military company, when readying themselves to join the organization. 
    It is hypocrisy and deceit, a fact kept until recently, from the rank and file who have believed it is only through their donations that Watchtower’s building projects are funded, as well as a preaching work that is taught as leading people out of the world and into a spiritual paradise.    
    Thank you for listing the companies. This scripture has a startling deeper meaning to me when applying it to the leaders of the Watchtower...
    “Then the devil, taking Him up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.  And the devil said to Him, “All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.  Therefore, if You will worship before me, all will be Yours.”  Luke 4:5-7
     
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