Shiwiii

On 10/22/2018 at 5:52 AM, Space Merchant said:

In the Boys and Girls clubs, as well as YMCA

Blasphemy !  Blasphemy !  Patooie! Shame, shame!  You are not supposed to know anything about those sick devil groups.

Is it true that for religious reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses may not become members of the YMCA (Young Men’s Christian Association)? ... We have long recognized that the YMCA, though not being a church as such, is definitely aligned with the religious organizations of Christendom in efforts to promote interfaith.
w79 1/1 pp. 30-31 - The Watchtower—1979

On 6/3/2018 at 10:36 AM, Jack Ryan said:

The Jehovah's Witness organization reversed direction and decided that disfellowshipping and shunning are very powerful tools for maintaining control over the activities and behavior of members.

It must mean that this "new light" was right all along and they are being enlightened by the Catholic Church, or they're continuing down the path that the Catholics have taken in response to many things to include CSA. 

I wonder why there are no comments from jws on this thread? 

On 7/6/2017 at 3:42 AM, Colin Browne said:

wearing anything from the common worldly masculine unshaven look to upturned waxed corners which would not appeal to any sincere Christian.

oh my......I seriously had to laugh at this comment. Thanks for the humor Colin.

8 hours ago, Hankulan Tunani said:

I won’t post copyright material since the Watchtower hasn’t given me permission to post them unto a discussion forum. However, I will direct those interested to JW.org. But how can anyone that understands scripture possibly think that anyone would come to life after the 1000 year has ended? This makes no sense.

If people are to experience all that God promises and Jesus offered, all this would have to be completed before the 1000 years. Scripture doesn’t support anything else.

Other religions do make claims that go beyond scripture. They go to extremes to add to it, which is offensive to God. So, of course, witnesses should find themselves comparing scriptural interpretation. The best direction is to compare scripture as the first century Christians did through Christ. This is what the Watchtower set out to do and its purpose.

I've quoted literature from your jw.org, and it still says the same thing. They believe that only those who are part of their org will be alive after Armageddon. . 

16 hours ago, Gone Away said:

Just a little clarification here. There are Jehovah's Witnesses and Jehovah's witnesses.

One group are members of a religious organisation  existing in this early part of the 21st Century.

The other group consists of humans who will witness (literally) the saving hand of Jehovah through a cataclysmic demonstration of his power in destroying a wicked and Satanic system of things at a time of His chosing. 

Membership of both groups is not mutually inclusive.

This is pure semantics.   The point is that the context of the wt literature speaks of only those who belong to their idea of "jehovah's org", you know this as well. 

29 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

Answer for Shiwii

Rev 20:7  Now as soon as the 1,000 years have ended, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Maʹgog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they advanced over the whole earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and consumed them. 

Restored mankind will not be fighting each other, though.  They will not be learning war in the 1000-year reign.  But as the final test is placed on all perfected humans, some rebels will come forth.  The true nature of their hearts will be revealed and they will show their true colours. They will attack the ones who are loyal to the kingdom. The warriors/rebels will be in effect be fighting against God, like at Armageddon.  The warriors will be on one side, and Jehovah will fight for them the other side, his restored faithful people, who will be granted everlasting life after the final test.  Fire will come down from heaven and eat up these rebels.  (See quotes below)

29 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

I think you read that wrong.  If someone encircled your home to draw you out into a fight or brawl, you don't necessarily have to come out. You might simply wait for the Police to come or your security people.

The scriptures show that fire will come down from heaven and consume them.  Means the heavenly forces will act again for the loyal ones, as in Jehoshaphat's  time and as at Armageddon.

I can follow you on this thought, but first we need to address the position of the wt/gb/jws. As stated in this book, as well as other's sited, it is the position of the gb/wt/jws that only jws will survive Armageddon. This has been shown to be true from not only my examples but also from other's opinion here, such as Gone Away and JW Insider. So it isn't something I made up. 

Now I understand your point about you don't have to fight and can stay inside if one wishes.  My point is that these left are ONLY jws, as stated in the wt books/opinions of jws etc. So a very, VERY LARGE number of jws WILL be preparing for war against those who as you say "stay inside and wait for authorities", which as pointed out by the publications are also jws. So in a sense, jws will be preparing to go to war with other jws.  If that's all that's left, then there is no other option. 

2 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

Don't know that one, unless it is one of the revised ones I did not see.

 

 I believe it is new.

it's on the website

1 hour ago, Melinda Mills said:

Remember United in Worship... book, can't remember one with Pure Worship. Could you write out the full name of the book.

Pure Worship of Jehovah—Restored at Last! is the title of this book

25 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

".... they must demonstrate by words and actions their devotion to pure worship ".

So the question to ask is, Where is this pure worship ? 

It certainly is not within the JW Org governed by the Governing Body. The GB have proved themselves false in so many ways.  

Well according to the article: "...and to support Christ’s brothers loyally."  That's where.....

"To survive the coming destruction, individuals need to prove their faith now. As we saw earlier, those who survived Jerusalem’s destruction in 607 B.C.E. demonstrated beforehand their heartfelt rejection of wickedness and their devotion to pure worship. It is similar today. Before the destruction comes, individuals need to be “sighing and groaning”—deeply grieved at heart—over the wickedness of this world. And rather than hide their feelings, they must demonstrate by words and actions their devotion to pure worship. How can they do so? They need to react favorably to the preaching work that is being done today, to continue putting on a Christlike personality, to get baptized in symbol of their dedication to Jehovah, and to support Christ’s brothers loyally. (Ezek. 9:4; Matt. 25:34-40; Eph. 4:22-24; 1 Pet. 3:21) Only those who pursue such a course now—and who enter the great tribulation as pure worshippers—will be in a position to be marked for survival."

Also from the same book. 

"... As happened with the ancient city of Jerusalem, Jehovah will use secular forces to do the unthinkable —to attack all false religious organizations on earth... Just as Jerusalem’s destruction was “a unique calamity,” so the “great tribulation” with its war of Armageddon will be an event that “has not occurred” before...

... God’s Word indicates that individual supporters of false religion will survive the coming destruction of religious institutions. Fearful, these survivors will join other individuals of all ranks who will be searching for a hiding place...

... any hiding places into which the survivors of the attack on religion may run will not shield them from Jehovah’s sword. At Armageddon, they will be put to death, together with all other goatlike ones.

... The time left to “make disciples of people of all the nations” is limited. When the attack of “the rod” (the secular forces) against religion begins, we will no longer preach a message of salvation... As far as sharing good news is concerned, we will become “mute,” just as Ezekiel became mute, or stopped proclaiming his messages, during part of his ministry... True, after the destruction of false religion, people will, in a sense, desperately “seek a vision from a prophet,” but no lifesaving instructions will be given to them. The time to receive such instruction and to become a disciple of Christ will have passed...

... However, our work as preachers will not cease. Why not? During the great tribulation, we may well begin proclaiming a message of judgment that will be like a plague of hail. That message will clearly signal that the end of the wicked world is upon mankind... "

The above is from the pure worship book. 

This makes it pretty clear that the wt/gb says that only jws will survive. 

What I really didn't get about that video was, what exactly is it teaching kids? 

Here are a few questions I had:

Why did Sophia look all somber when she saw the poster of the girl with her diploma? That didn't fit anywhere in the story/ thought of knowing that God sees us all the time. Is this some sort of backhanded scowl at higher education? 

My next question is:    When any of you were in school, and you were doing well and at the top of your class, did anyone try and GIVE you answers? Me personally, No. They were asking for the answers, not trying to give them to me. What is left out of the story line here is why did she not answer the question? From looking at the other questions on her test, it wasn't because she didn't know the answer or couldn't figure it out because the other question were harder, so why leave it blank?  Totally unrealistic and fear mongering. So God is going to frown on you if you get a good score? 

What was bad about Caleb's classmates? Was it the shoot'em up games? We see the poster of the shooter game but not really that of the game consoles. Then the bully kid comes in, what was the point of him? To try and stir some sort of persecution complex because Caleb didn't want to play the game? Of course there are bullies in school who bully for no good reason, but why include it in the story if it had nothing to do with the story? Did David participate in war training? Did he go to war? Didn't he kill a bear and a lion with his "gun" ? 

This sort of "kids" videos are done deliberately to enforce the gb views, not Gods. It is truly shameful to hinder children from doing their best.

It limits them in life and makes them a complete outcast as children AND as adults. 

we are getting off on a whole different topic. 

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Um not this comment but one of your previous comments you said " and the standard in which sin is judged is the LAW of Moses."

We no longer live under the Law of Moses, nor did we in fact, as it was only for the Nation of Israel, and it ended when Jesus Christ fulfilled it by his death and resurrection.

So we cannot be judged by the Mosaic Law.  There are things that Christians can do that the Israelites  / Jews could no do. 

We do not keep the Sabbath and we can eat all foods. We do not offer animal sacrifices, etc

 

you are correct, to a point. 

The law was not abolished, it serves as a measuring stick to show us exactly where we fall short. We are not stoned to death any longer for serious sins, but it does not diminish the fact that serious sins are committed. 

Matthew 5:17&18  "“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

45 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Yes quite a lovely thought really. If suicide was painless and not frightening. Why wait for Armageddon if life is not good now ?

Just quietly go to sleep and then wake up in the 'New World'. The only downside is that it is a bit selfish if you have loved ones that would miss you and / or need you here.. 

 

quite true, but this is just an exercise for thought.

It ultimately destroy's the logic of interpreting Romans 6:23 and 6:7 the way that jws do. 

2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

That being said, regarding that verse we should take into the verse fully as well as with the references. Also if I may add, there is another verse in Romans that is nearly the same with this one, it is verse 7.

Kris posted this a while back: https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/44364/in-the-tradition-of-jehovahs-witnesses-does-romans-623-mean-that-all-people-w

 

And here is the top answer (Kris) in your link:

"The answer to this question lies in understanding judgement day from the Jehovah's Witnesses point of view. We do not believe persons are resurrected and judged worthy of eternal life or eternal anihilation based on their imperfect previous existence. Rather those sins are blotted out as you state or paid for by death."

So yes, the jw position IS that your sins are gone upon death as confirmed by Kris. So then there is the question I had asked. Logically speaking, based on this belief that all sins are gone, suicide would only be a sin for a twinkling. 

The reference to verse 7 is what we agreed on much earlier in this thread. Your death removes your ability to sin, the consequences of sin is death, and the standard in which sin is judged is the LAW of Moses. 

Gone away/Space Merchant , I agree with the both of you on your last posts. 

I have spoken to many jws before on this topic (death = sins acquitted) and very adamantly their response has been that those sins are gone, forgiven.  I wondered if there were some here who hold that same view, that once you die all of your sins are gone. If that WAS someone's position, then they would have to settle the idea that suicide could not be a sin, well it would be for a second and gone the next. This topic is a stone in the shoe of those who believe this way. 

3 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

Can't see a logic in concluding because death is the consequence of sin therefore sin cannot be wrong??

I think you're missing something, because we seem to be saying the same thing. 

I'm saying if one believes that all ones sins are acquitted at the time of death (the jw interpretation of Romans 6:23) , then suicide and the act of doing so would be absolved/acquitted instantly. I do not subscribe to this thinking as I do not see Romans 6:23 saying that upon death all of your sins are acquitted. 

I agree with your statement that the consequence of sin is death, which makes perfect sense, but I'm talking about the belief that the jws hold on Romans 6:23 and how that ties into suicide. 

On 9/29/2018 at 5:57 PM, Space Merchant said:

A person who has died his or her sins do not stand against him/her. For if it was not for the sacrifice of our Lord, Jesus, and God’s purpose and will that pertains to the resurrection, an individual, he/she would never live again if that were the case.

Regardless, one would remain acquitted from sin, as God would not review the case of the sinner and then sentence him to other kinds of punishment for his sin, for God is Just and according to his purpose, will and order such ones will be held accountable and it will be between said individual and God when that day comes.

That is the great thing about Jesus sacrifice, it provides this amnesty and paves a path for us regarding Salvation.

This part I don't agree with, or maybe I'm not following you completely. 

Without faith in Jesus, none of your/my sins are forgiven. Yes, our sins are washed clean by the blood of Jesus, by means of faith, not by us dying. Jesus didn't die for all mankind in the sense of those who reject Him, but rather those who put their faith in Him.

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This is where the Romans 6 verse is misused in my opinion by all who claim that upon death all people's sins are erased. This is also where I was drawing the question. If one believes that suicide is a sin and that Romans 6:23 absolves all sin upon death, then suicide cannot be wrong/sin because instantly that sin would be erased, nullifying the whole thing. 

17 hours ago, sami said:

The Governing Body is directed by Jehovah himself.

How do you know this to be true? Because they told you it was? 

Meanwhile in Montana:

HELENA, Mont. (AP) — A Montana jury has ruled that the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization must pay $34 million to a woman who says the church covered up her sexual abuse as a child at the hands of a congregation member.

Neil Smith, an attorney representing the 32-year-old woman, says the jury’s verdict Wednesday in the lawsuit sends a message to the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ New York headquarters to stop prioritizing church secrecy over children’s safety.

Jehovah’s Witness officials did not immediately respond to a call or email for comment. The monetary award must be reviewed by the trial judge.

The jury dismissed claims by a second woman who alleged abuse by the same man in Thompson Falls in the 1990s.

The jury concluded church elders did not receive notice of the second woman’s abuse and therefore did not have a duty to tell authorities.

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When will this one make the jw news feed? 

12 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I don't know about anyone fighting anyone else BUT, there will be a resurrection of the righteous and the UNrighteous. 

The righteous are the ones that served God before they died. The unrighteous are the ones that didn't serve God before they died.

So, the unrighteous will be given the chance to learn about God, hence millions of 'Bible studies' in the resurrection. Then they will be judged near the end of the 1,000 years. But it seems many will chose to be in opposition to God at that time. 

That all seems to make sense in a practical way. If it's true or not only time will tell. 

Now as for your first sentence. "The wt says that they (jws) are going to be the only ones left after Armageddon", well I don't believe they have the right to say that, if they did actually say it. 

I can see some sort of reasoning such as, 'only one ARK' 'only those in the ARK survived'. 'Only Noah and his family did just as God commanded'. That bit makes sense.

But i think it gets far more complicated than that.  (will write more later). 

 

 

sure, but jws don't go to war. They don't fight. But in Revelation 20 it says they will. AND if they truly believe that they are the only ones left, then they MUST be fighting each other. In other words, their beliefs do not add up. Its the same as most places and beliefs that they interpret, they try and play both sides of the coin. 

Think about the latest video of all the folks in the field and their "Jesus" comes to save them with his bow and arrow from those chasing them. Well in the scenario presented where they are the only ones left, well those who are chasing them are also jws. It just doesn't makes sense.  

23 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

So which is it? Alliance with the Bible on who is still here after Armageddon or the wt and its publications? 

No one here can explain their position I guess. Then again, I guess no one here would need to since the publications already state the position jws are suppose to accept. 

So then this lead me to another question.......

The wt says that they (jws) are going to be the only ones left after Armageddon,  whom are they going to fight in the end after the 1000 year reign? Other jws? I guess so, since they are the only ones left..........how does that fit with the whole "we don't go to war" thing? oops, "Houston we have a problem"

4 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Bible records show some examples of people committing suicide. Although we find no commentary with these incidences, such is covered in principle in the 6th Commandment, therefore, suicide is an act of murder [killing of oneself and or other]. 

That is, if one is to take in what the Laws found in the Torah are all about, with the inclusion of the Ten Commandments.

So let me ask you this then. As your position holds close to that of the jw, at death is that sin not paid for? I mean the wages of sin is death right? See, I do not subscribe to the idea that once I die all of my sins are paid by my death, it merely means I no longer have the ability to perform more sin. I am only washed clean by the blood of Jesus and my faith in Him. I can't see how suicide is an option if your faith is in Jesus. So in essence, I agree that suicide is wrong and possibly a sin, but I just want to know what is being used as support for such a claim.......especially by the jw, because of the wages of sin = death thing.