Shiwiii

damn typical fashion!!!! UGH, distracted this from the main topic by means of the shell game. 

You're good mr gone away, very good. I bit. 

Back to our regular scheduled program. 

So which is it? Alliance with the Bible on who is still here after Armageddon or the wt and its publications? 

Just now, JOHN BUTLER said:

So is it true that the JW Org is running out of money ? I do know they are selling Kingdom Halls here in the UK.

And the reduction in both magazines and book publications, inc Calendars and Day Texts.

Some might say it's because 'we are close to the end of this system' but I think it's because they are running out of money. 

I think you are right, honestly. With the broadcast by mr. splaine, or it could have been mr lett, stating they had more going out then coming in, you just might be seeing the beginning  of the end......Armageddon of the wt. 

41 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The GB are stumbling so many that they must be blood guilty of much. Hundreds of people are leaving the JW Org earthwide. This is because congregants can see the GB and elders are acting against the instructions given by Christ. So therefore if someone leaves the Org for the right reasons, as I did, I cannot see that Jehovah or Jesus Christ would punish them. 

Or do you think people should continue to offer children to Molech just to please the GB. 

The wt IS offering children to Molech by means of allowing pedophiles to hide within. 

It is super simple, report abuse to the police........period.

Quit trying to be above the law. 

In fact we are to pray for those in charge, government leaders/police/mayors/etc. 

1 Timothy 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.

1 minute ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Not here in the UK I'm not. The congregations are only allowed to keep so much then have to hand over the rest. 

I only left the Org in the beginning of this year, so i do know what I'm talking about.

But of course you can try to belittle me as it's the thing JW's do. 

you are correct John. 

Not only that but the continuous payment on building loans to wt headquarters after those loans have been paid back to the bank in full by the wt.  

4 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

Look, even the most basic comprehension of this topic demonstrates its pathetic reasoning. Covering costs is exactly what Jehovah's Witnesses are about, hence a per capita assessment, which makes perfect economic sense. You are presenting this (covertly) as if it were comparable to a levy, such as the tithing arrangement so favoured by some, or, as explicitly stated as a "passing the plate" excercise similar to that carried out customarily by others. I am not going to argue the case further on that point, but I would suggest a more careful marshalling of facts is really in order here.

So what you are saying is that its ok because it is the wt doing it for economic reasons and its not ok for other groups to do it for economic reasons. Gotcha.......sheesh. You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth. 

6 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

Jehovah's Witnesses are quite happy to contribute both time and cost-covering money to furthering the interests of what they consider to be God's Kingdom at this time. And that includes direction on costs, along with information on cost-effective and efficient methods to make financial contributions to cover those costs.

no problem at all from me about what jws want to do with their money and time. 

The problem I have is, the hypocritical stance of doing the same thing, but yet condemning others for the same practices. 

8 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

These other groups you mention appear to be covering far more than costs.

that is pure speculation, unless you have some reports of Hindu money practices. what isn't speculation is the numerous court cases that the wt is fighting across the world with your funds. I know you don't care about those issues nor that your money is being used in this way, but it is the facts. 

lets try this another way. According to the publications produced by the wt:

What group solely has any scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system? 

What group must one identify with to gain salvation?

If we left a group and lost the hope of life in God's new world because of leaving this group, what group would that be? 

10 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

I almost thought I could agree with you, but this is not a logical conclusion.

It is the cognitive dissonance that won't allow you. It is completely logical and that is the problem.  

8 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

Are you reading minds again? Tsk! Tsk! 

I don't need to dodge this topic? It makes perfect sense to me. You just can't accept that telling people how much it costs to run an assembly is quite normal and practical. That's not how you feel. Not everyone feels the same way as you do. You will just have to accept that.

The question posed was "How is this different from "passing the plate", it is not. You said you couldn't comprehend that,  and now you are telling me? 

The fact of the matter is that it is exactly the same thing, to cover costs associated with whatever religious events the group puts on, no matter if they are Catholic/Hindu/Christian/jws. 

1 minute ago, Gone Away said:

Of course statements like the ones you quote could be misunderstood by onlookers to suggest that organisational membership is all that is required for salvation, but that is not the view of anyone taking the Bible seriously. If your agenda includes making that point, then in the light of Matthew 7:21-23, (quoted earlier), it is a good point and is duly noted.

It is interesting to note that you too, thought that those quotes would lead someone to believe that the wt is saying that one must be part of the wt org for salvation. That must be because it DOES SAY THAT. 

1 minute ago, Gone Away said:

Now you are reading minds, (two at the same time it seems), and drawing conclusions on your results????

I know you are hurting over something, but I don't think you are on a healing route here.  ?

Bahahahaha, Nice deflection. I think you are dodging the topic because you know what I said is true, you just can't accept it. 

"Only Jehovah's Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil." Watchtower 1989 Sep 1 p.19

"They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah's organization is essential to their salvation." Kingdom Ministry Nov 1990

 Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah's universal organization." Watchtower 2006 May 15 p.22 "Are You Prepared for Survival?"

"But Jehovah's servants already belong to the only organization that will survive the end of this wicked system of things." Watchtower  Dec 2007

"An even greater mistake would be to allow the faults of others to stumble us and cause us to leave Jehovah’s organization. Were that to happen, we would lose not only the privilege of doing God’s will but also the hope of life in God’s new world."  Watchtower June 2016 study edition

So while some of you claim that it is only God who decides, which IS true, the wt has made the claims otherwise.

Gone Away:   Which side are you on? The Bible, God's word, or the publications of the wt? 

JW Insider: While the talk may be toned down, the position hasn't changed since at least 1989. Unless it has changed in the past 2 years
 

Through the publications of the wt, they have stated that only jws will survive Armageddon and the 1000 year reign.  So those of you who are jws, how does that sit with you in light of scripture?

14 hours ago, Gone Away said:

it’s not our job to judge who will or won’t be saved. That assignment rests squarely in Jesus’ hands.—John 5:22, 27.

Oh I quite agree with you, however when it is stated in the publications otherwise, what do you make of it? Do you side with scripture or do you side with the organizations publications? 

47 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

What! Shiwiiiii would equate the two? It's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

7 hours ago, Gone Away said:

Probably best to let each one carry his own load in this regard.

Are you both serious? Really? 

You mean to tell me that you cannot see the similarities between passing the plate and requesting money? Had this come from the Catholic church encouraging their members to fork over some money, you two would be going over some dialog in your minds of how jws are so much better because the jws don't do that. The fact of the matter is ALL churches do it. They all do it for the same exact reasons stated here and elsewhere, to cover expenses. Do some spend it frivolously and are wasteful? Sure. Is any one group innocent in their dealings with the peoples money 100% of the time, probably not. Are there some who try to use the money responsibly? No doubt. But to look down your nose at another group while ignoring your own actions is the perfect definition of hypocrisy.    

1 minute ago, Gone Away said:

This was addressed to @JWInsider , but I would like to cite a couple of scriptures very much in the consciousness of all true Christians today. They are:

1Co.11:12 "So let the one who thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall."

Matt.7:21 "“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will"

These have a bearing on who will "left after the 1000 year reign.

While there are PLENTY of scriptures we can quote, I'm more interested in the official stance on the matter from the gb vs regular jws. 

what do you want me to do about your struggle? 

On 9/17/2018 at 6:41 PM, JW Insider said:

Many persons will no doubt witness such spectacles of Jehovah's selective judgments, and realize they are not random, but purposeful. This would have to be interpreted as a true and spectacular judgment message from heaven. That means that, in effect, EVERYBODY who witnesses Jehovah's judgments will now be one of Jehovah's witnesses at this point,

This absolutely makes no sense. While yes with a play of words it is true, but not in the sense of jws today. I think that is a bit of grasping at straws really. 

I don't have the articles on hand at the moment, but I do recall the sentiment of actual jws will be the only ones left. This was my question and point. Since no one here has come out and said "only jws will be left", I'll have to find the articles. I think Tony Morris spoke on this as well and mentioned something of the sort of likeness between human flesh and hotdogs on a grill.  

I'll dig up the articles, but even if I do it seems as though most will shrug it off and make some excuse. But the question still remains:

Is it your position that only jws, as they are defined and structured today, will be left after the 1000 year reign? 

On 9/23/2018 at 7:08 AM, Jack Ryan said:

How is this different from "passing the plate" that my dad always boasted that JW's did not do?

its not

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

• Great Tribulation
• Gog of Magog surround God's people to attack (before the 1,000 year reign)
• Armageddon
  • Destruction of Gog of Magog (before the thousand year reign)
  • Binding of Satan and his demons
• The 1,000 Year Reign
• Release of Satan (at the end of the 1000 years)
• Gog and Magog surround God's people to attack (at the end of the 1,000 years)
• Destruction of Gog and Magog (at the end of the 1,000 years)
• Satan and demons thrown into lake of fire

Isn't it believed by jw's that between your #3 sub points and your #4 is when God will sweep clean and destroy all who are not jw's at that time? Setting aside those who have died previously, we're only dealing with those alive during this period. 

42 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

Who are they?

no, I was asking if the only ones left are jw's. Well actually not asking, but rather confirming what jws believe. 

wait a minute. So after this 1000 years, who's left? Just jw's right? its only those who have associated with the organization, well according to the publications. Right? 

10 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Report EVERYTHING to the police ... and let them sort it out.

hear hear! 

Only problem is that:

"you're gonna make Jehovah sad"

"you're going to bring reproach on Jehovah's organization" 

"you're going beyond what is written"

"listen to us, even if it sounds bats#it crazy"

On 6/9/2018 at 11:33 PM, Gone Away said:

How difficult is to check if he is hiding in a Kindom Hall as they suggest?

about as difficult to get most jw congs to report child abuse in the first place. 

16 hours ago, Gone Away said:

Are you one of these?

am I a number? lol

I'm not Jewish and I am not from the mentioned tribes in Revelation 7:4-8............. I fail

I'm also not a virgin, Revelation 14:4 ...........I fail

I have lied before, Revelation 14:5............. I fail

So, I do not qualify according to the standard God has placed in the Bible. 

I am male though, so I guess I qualify 1/5th of the requirements. ......I pass.....err......well just this part. 

32 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

It is a number of individuals chosen, yes. This number is mentioned 3 times in Revelations and everywhere of where it is mentioned, is a direct references to those chosen to co-rule within the Messianic Kingdom. When the New Covenant came into effect, you already have those of Pentecost, which included the Disciples of Jesus, and Judas' replacement, Matthias, which totals up to 3,000, and from there more of the firstfruits are chosen up to present day and onward.

And the opposite of such would be?

Interesting. The opposite is no number. 

In Galatians chapter 4 starting at verse 21, we are told of Abraham's two sets of children. Children of the free woman (Sarah) and children of the bondwoman (Hagar). Specifically telling the reader that these two groups belong to two different camps, one from Jerusalem on Earth and the other from the Jerusalem from above. The Jerusalem from above are those who belong to the freewoman. Verse 27 quotes the OT Isiah 54:1 in which speaks of how the children of the barren woman (Sarah) will outnumber those of the "wife" (Hagar). 
 

So how does this line up with the 144k or does it? It can't. The reason why I say it can't, is because those of earthly Jerusalem (even at the time of the writing) were already greater than 144k. So then these from the Jerusalem from above must be greater than 144k, so those who belong to the Jerusalem from above cannot be one and the same as the 144k mentioned in Revelation. Revelation 21 talks also of this new Jerusalem coming from above and coming down to earth. If you look into all of the places where a new Jerusalem is written about you will not find ANY mention of 144k or any other definite number belonging to it, but rather a number greater than those of Jerusalem from the Earth, which leaves almost an open ended count. 

I don't disagree with your position on the already 3000 chosen, nor the "more firstfruits", I just do not see how this description in Galatians can be dismissed and replaced by the 144k mentioned in Revelation. 

9 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

the reality is it is a collection of persons who are chosen by God and or those destined for such a service.

It is believed and is true that only a few of these people are left and some will be alive until the End Times conclusion and eventually into the days of Great Tribulations.

So is this a number? Is it 144k? The reason why I ask is I don't see anywhere where in scripture where a number is correlated to this group. I see just the opposite actually.