Shiwiii

We agree that the new heaven and the new earth will be redeemed, weather that is by means of restoration or by replacement, none the less redeemed. I was just curious if you thought that the two would become one in a sense. Once God's dwelling place is with men, is that the combination, or do you feel that there will still be a separation between heaven and earth? 

15 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

those of whom are called the chosen ones, those who are of Heavenly Jerusalem

 This Heavenly Jerusalem consists of those called/chosen, do you subscribe to the same views as the jws on this? That this consists of only a select number of folks, say the 144k? 

15 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

I believe I have talked about something similar regarding the Spiritual House, before, one my responses to Witness, for this House that it's very foundation being the Christ consist of both groups, and consist what we know about the new heavens and the earth deemed the new creation.

This kind of addresses my first question in this response. Both groups become one under this Spiritual house, but is there still a separation of sorts? 

12 hours ago, JW Insider said:

From what I can see, it's one guy in 30 persons, and 30 persons in one guy. He takes the idea of "trinity" to a whole new order of magnitude.

now that's funny. Sort of reminds me of Allen Smith.

On 6/29/2018 at 8:27 PM, Space Merchant said:

the new creation will bring, that is the new heavens and earth

In your opinion is this "God's Kingdom" ? I mean the new heaven and the new earth? 

Logically speaking, I would say yes it is. However what I mean is, God's kingdom will and does consist of everything He has made, but more specifically will heaven and earth be a combination?  

This new wt sure looks like a "letter of solicitation" according to the definition. I wonder if this is the reason why the publication has been suspended (no more printed books and such).  Is this a way the wt can still be correct according to their own statement????

God’s Kingdom Rules! pages 195 & 196

Chapter 18: How Kingdom Activities Are Financed

“It Will Never Beg nor Petition Men for Support”

7 Brother Russell and his associates refused to imitate the money-raising schemes so common in the churches of Christendom. In the second issue of the Watch Tower, under the heading “Do You Want ‘Zion’s Watch Tower’?” Russell stated: “‘Zion’s Watch Tower’ has, we believe, JEHOVAH for its backer, and while this is the case it will never beg nor petition men for support. When He who says: ‘All the gold and silver of the mountains are mine,’ fails to provide necessary funds, we will understand it to be time to suspend the publication.” (Hag. 2:7-9) Over 130 years later, The Watchtower and the organization that publishes it are still going strong!

8 Jehovah’s people do not beg for money. They do not pass collection plates or send out letters of solicitation. Neither do they use bingo, bazaars, or raffles to raise money. They hold to what the Watch Tower long ago said: “We have never considered it proper to solicit money for the Lord’s cause, after the common custom . . . It is our judgment that money raised by the various begging devices in the name of our Lord is offensive, unacceptable to him, and does not bring his blessing either upon the givers or the work accomplished.” [Footnote: The Watch Tower, August 1, 1899, page 201.]

The back cover of Nov 2018 wt magazine has a full page asking "What gift can you give to Jehovah?"  There are a few ways to give your "gift" and are explained. Using your web browser or jw library app, you can set up recurring donations. 

How is this not equivalent to passing the plate? 

On 7/18/2018 at 10:37 AM, Shiwiii said:

The account in Galatians is much more specific though as to whom is part of this "New Jerusalem" and the account in Revelation 21 ties in perfectly with our topic of discussion here.

In Galatians we read that in Ch 3 verse 29, those who belong to Christ are heirs according to promise. They are Abraham's descendants. So what about them? where do they belong? Heaven or Earth?  

Who belongs to Christ?

15 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

You neither understand nor correctly report my position on this matter and, frankly, appear to demonstrate incompetence in both reading and comprehension by a pathetically shallow response. You're probably tired. No one could exhibit such inability intentionally. 

When you come out with a statement clearly showing you can't understand why child abuse " is such a thorny matter.", it sets the tone of the remainder of your opinion. 

3 hours ago, Gone Away said:

Fotr the life of me, I cannot see why this issue is such a thorny matter.

Here lies the problem of the matter. The people who don't see why it is an issue that children are abused. Thanks for telling us your position on the matter. 

who then is the meek?

On 6/29/2018 at 5:59 PM, JW Insider said:

Here we also have a scripture stating that the old Heavens is gone, dead, passed away. Could this be a restoration of the Heavens?

Sure could be. I would agree, and it wouldn't matter much if it were literal or figurative, it is still "new"

On 6/29/2018 at 5:59 PM, JW Insider said:

We could say the same about the Earth. You make a statement showing that you also believe there is a new earth, possibly in some sense "physical," which the new Jerusalem comes down to.

Yes, we could. Again I would agree and it would matter not if it were  literal or figurative.

On 6/29/2018 at 5:59 PM, JW Insider said:

The rendering of a verse in 2 Corinthians, below, matches the ideas of Rev 21 & 22. I don't see it necessary to imagine the literal existing heavens hissing away for the verses to be fulfilled. I suppose it's a matter of whether we understand the same things to be figurative or symbolic and which ones we see as literal.

I will live in them and move among them. 
I will be their God. 
They will be My people. 
'So, come away from them! 
Be separate!' says the Lord. (2 Cor. 6:16,17 SEB)

No problem here with me either. I do not think that it HAS to be new vs restored. What part I do take literal is the part of "New Jerusalem" coming down from Heaven. Just like you mention in 2 Corinthians. Which is also mentioned in Galatians 4:21-31. The account in Galatians is much more specific though as to whom is part of this "New Jerusalem" and the account in Revelation 21 ties in perfectly with our topic of discussion here. 

We are seeing more and more of this type of behavior both in and out of religious organizations. It is truly sad that there are people(animals) out there who prey upon children. What makes it even worse is those who turn a blind eye to it all. I'm sure some turn away because of fear, fear that they might be next or fear from their own past trauma. There are some who turn away based on what they are told they should do. I cannot see any reason why anyone would think that YHWH would approve of not seeking justice and prevention of this continuing. We are to govern our civilizations and from the top to the bottom we ALL are responsible to govern. We govern our own house first, it trickles upward  to our schools then our community, state, country. What was done to those people who did this in the 1600's? (Yes, I am aware that marriage was done at a much younger age for women/girls back then.)  If they were caught abusing children, most likely that was the last time they did that and probably the last time they did anything. I don't see it as wrong to eliminate these types of people, as well as those who allow this to happen over and over by not bringing it to light, from civilization, for obviously they are not civil. 

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Perhaps it is one of the best ways to find the proper meaning of the following verses, among several others:

 

• (Matthew 5:18) 18 Truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one stroke of a letter to pass away from the Law until all things take place.
• (Matthew 5:34, 35) . . .neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by earth, for it is the footstool of his feet;. . .
• (Matthew 6:10) . . .Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth.
• (Acts 3:25) . . .: ‘And by means of your offspring all the families of the earth will be blessed.’
• (Acts 17:25, 26) . . .. 26 And he made out of one man every nation of men to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of where men would dwell,
• (Ephesians 1:9, 10) . . .It is according to his good pleasure that he himself purposed 10 for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, to gather all things together in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. . . .
• (Colossians 1:20) 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all other things by making peace through the blood he shed on the torture stake, whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens.
• (Hebrews 2:5) 5 For it is not to angels that he has subjected the inhabited earth to come, about which we are speaking.
• (2 Peter 3:13) 13 But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.
• (Revelation 5:10) 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
• (Revelation 11:18) 18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time came for the dead to be judged and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”
• (Revelation 21:1) 21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth;. . .

 

Matt 5:18  -    how is this any support for meek on Earth? I mean Jesus was speaking about what was to come and what would not pass away (the LAW). He was the fulfillment of the LAW as He died without sin. Sure, Jesus said the "meek shall inherit the Earth", I think we see this a bit different and I'll explain once I respond to Revelation 21:1. 

Matt 5:34/35  - This section of scripture is speaking of taking an Oath, swearing on your momma's grave, etc. It has nothing to do with meek inheriting the Earth. 

Matt 6:10 - A section of the Lord's prayer is supporting people on Earth vs people in Heaven? I cannot see that in this scripture. The only correlation is that the word "Earth" is used. 

Acts 3:25  -  This is speaking of what God said to Abraham, not a future fulfillment. It was reassuring Abraham that his children and theirs would be looked after by God. 

Acts 17:25/26 - Paul was explaining who God is and what God has done, again not a prophetic statement. 

Ephesians 1:9/10, Colossians 1:20 - Interesting scriptures to use, as they tie in nicely with Revelation 21 as well. to be expounded upon at the end of my response. 

Hebrews 2:5 -  I suspect you are holding to the "inhabited world to come" portion of this scripture. I agree, to an extent and will address this in my response to Revelation 21. 

2 Peter 3:13 -  New heaven and New Earth.....see revelation 21 response

Revelation 5:10, Revelation 11:18 and Revelation 21:1  --  Ok, here is where I can give you my perspective on most of this. We may disagree, but it is up to us to explain using scripture our position. 

Revelation 5:10 is speaking of who will rule and reign and over what. Men from every tribe, nation and language who have been saved by the Blood of Christ are going to reign over the Earth.  Further in Revelation, where you cited ch 11:18, it speaks of those who are ruining the Earth and that God will ruin them. I'm with you here. Now which Earth are we talking about here? The New Earth or the Old one? Because they are not one in the same. Revelation 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.   Here we have scripture stating that the old Earth is gone, dead, passed away. Could this be a restoration of the Earth, sure, but never the less the previous Earth is no more. This is "NEW" Earth. Does scripture tell us which Earth the meek shall inherit? nope, but I suspect it IS this new Earth. We kind of agree here I think. 2 Peter 3:13 talking about this new Heaven and new Earth and Hebrews 2:5, I believe is speaking of this new Earth that is to come as well. Men will be on the Earth, no doubt. They will be governed by those that God selects. 

Now I want to explain my view on Ephesians 1:9&10 and Colossians 1:20. These two sections of scripture talk about a joining together or reconciliation of all the things in Heaven and on Earth to Christ. While Christ alone can do this however He wishes, we are told of another reconciliation which would fit this role as well, but it come much later then the harvest. It comes when the new Heaven and the new Earth come into play. Revelation 21: 2&3 tells us that a new Jerusalem will come down from Heaven and reside on the New Earth and thus God's dwelling place will be with man. This reconciles all things that are in Heaven and all things that are on Earth, to God. He will be among men on the new Earth. So Heaven will come down to Earth. 

3 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

I have used Scripture and offered an explanation as to how those who are invited are already chosen, hence the door being shut, but it would seem that is not enough for you apparently.

apparently not, and I think it comes down to the scriptures you used said nothing about what we were talking about. Nothing indicated the "door shut". That is why apparently I was not satisfied. 

5 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Not really. Because as to what Jesus is the first fruits of, in regards to those who are chosen, as well as those who will remain on the earth itself. And many people know of what this implies, for it is something that is not only known to Jehovah's Witnesses, especially if one is to understands what the New Creation is all about. Such information is quite brief and understandable.

That being said, those of that New Creation are the ones who make up these groups, those who rule alongside the Christ, and those who inherit the earth itself.

If it is a separate thread you want, then by all means, regardless though, what was said is of this topic, mainly when it comes to those among the righteous and the meek.

 

If anything, I was going to post something to this degree in a few days.

I don't even think we're close to being on the same page here. Your point has nothing to do with what I asked. 

I have started this thread for the discussion of the meek and the Earth, which has come out of the "will only the jws be saved" thread.

I will be answering JWInsider and Space Merchant here on their positions and responses to me. 

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Perhaps it is one of the best ways to find the proper meaning of the following verses, among several others:

 

• (Matthew 5:18) 18 Truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one stroke of a letter to pass away from the Law until all things take place.
• (Matthew 5:34, 35) . . .neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by earth, for it is the footstool of his feet;. . .
• (Matthew 6:10) . . .Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth.
• (Acts 3:25) . . .: ‘And by means of your offspring all the families of the earth will be blessed.’
• (Acts 17:25, 26) . . .. 26 And he made out of one man every nation of men to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of where men would dwell,
• (Ephesians 1:9, 10) . . .It is according to his good pleasure that he himself purposed 10 for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, to gather all things together in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. . . .
• (Colossians 1:20) 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all other things by making peace through the blood he shed on the torture stake, whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens.
• (Hebrews 2:5) 5 For it is not to angels that he has subjected the inhabited earth to come, about which we are speaking.
• (2 Peter 3:13) 13 But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.
• (Revelation 5:10) 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
• (Revelation 11:18) 18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time came for the dead to be judged and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”
• (Revelation 21:1) 21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth;. . .

 

This will take me some time to respond to each scripture you have cited. But like I mentioned to Space, maybe we should start a new thread. 

7 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

This is why I stated technically in my last response, in addition to making referring to those that God has chosen liken to an invitation, these people are already identified by God. The door is shut meaning such have already been identified and clearly God does not have need to have such invitations exceed 144,000

but you have failed in providing the scriptural evidence to back your claim that this selection or "door" is shut. Your opinion is fine, but without support, it is still just your opinion. It also matters not if others agree with your opinion, without scriptural support it is an opinion. 

11 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

I already have proven such in regards to identification and sealing, like I said, if those of this fold are already chosen, there's no question that 144,000 chosen throughout the centuries down to this day, are clearly awaiting the position they'll be given

actually you have not, well with scripture I mean. 

12 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

The fact that you think only the Jehovah's Witnesses believe this is mind-boggling. They, as well as those who profess the truth of what the Bible says, know that those chosen are the only ones going to Heaven to co-rule alongside God's chosen Messianaic King, who is among the first ones before the 144,000, hence the harvest. Which begs the question, are you even aware of what it means when Jesus is both the firstborn out of the dead and the first fruits of the harvest, the first among those who are asleep?

It is no idea, nor is it a mere opinion, we know of what Jesus is in regards to the New Creation (which is as clear as day in the Revelations of John) itself, as to what he is the first and last of/beginning and end of.

I suggest we start a separate thread on this, because it will be much longer then a few exchanges. Unless your mind is too boggled....)

13 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Going back on this, I am actually in error, confused you for Matt,

fair enough. Thank you

13 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

In short, those who have been identified as among the chosen ones, all there is now is such the sealing (Revelations 7:1-8, Revelations 14:1-5). Technically the door is indeed shut, all there is now is to wait it out. But those of await an inheritance that is eternal life, such ones the door is indeed open for them, for there is time for such ones, even those who want to make a change.

None of the scriptures you cited mention that the "door is shut". I asked you to show me from the Bible where this concept is stated, but you give me a reference to the sealing of Israel. Those scriptures mention nothing of the door being shut. Instead you give me your opinion, which is fine, but it still doesn't answer the question. You can have whatever view you'd like, but if you are going to claim the Bible says such, then you are going to have to prove it with the Bible. 

13 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Then we have the other group, those who will inherit the earth,

You and the jws believe this, but I'd like to know where you get this from out of the Bible. I know that the "meek shall inherit the Earth" scripture, but is there another scripture(s) you use to back up this idea? 

5 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

You brought Jeff and his team, Apologia Studios to make a claim in regards to Christmas festivities and the celebration of one's birth practice, paganism, druidism, etc, to which I had spoken such things are not things a Christian should be doing, for even in the past, I myself brought up those who took issue with such. I made mention of him because he is among the false teachers inside of mainstream Christendom. Indeed it is agreeable you are applying verses, but surely you should have known of any one who is in technically a false teacher, who literally does not stick to the sculpture and God's Law.

Can you please show me where I used Jeff and his "team". In your view he is a false teacher, ok, so what? If I do not, then again, so what? This again smells of a long typed banter to distract from the topic. This really is getting tiresome Mr. Merchant. 

7 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

If you want to be direct to the letter, he was talking more specifically on the those chosen for priesthood the door is indeed closed in this regard, as for the others, not of the chosen ones, benefactors of the Spiritual House, the door for eternal life is indeed open still, should they choose to accept it.

yes, direct IS what I'd prefer. Can you show me where the Bible states that this door has been shut? 

9 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

No, I always post a response and give an answer with detailed information and example regarding that response for I tend to be as direct as possible. You may think of it as rambling, it does not matter to be because I lack the ability to care at times when something is that minor, however, because you clearly do not want to adhere to what is being said, as it was before, as is now. Oh and it is relevant, Matthew 23:23 has been said, so information in detail can be brought up in a direct response to what you have mentioned.

I think you just might want to reread some of what you have written in this and other threads. More than just me have this same opinion of your responses. 

12 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

You yourself have to realize that,

You YOURSELF have to realize the context of what I wrote concerning the "letter" that JW Insider has a copy of. 

What does that letter state? Here is a quote from JW Insider 

23 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I have a letter from the WTS dated in 1922 which answers a question sent in by a Bible Student about the possibility of more persons becoming a part of the "anointed class." The answer simply clarifies that the "door was closed" to new persons of that class in 1881, and that the only persons who might have still been chosen were only chosen in the rare event that someone who had already been chosen in 1881 had proven unfaithful after 1881 but before their final sealing.

23 hours ago, JW Insider said:

That same claim about the door closing in 1881 was later used for 1935,

Who closed that door? Oh yeah, the wt, as stated in the letter. 

17 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Indeed, there are false ones out there, some far worse than others, who derive people away from what the Bible says, this is also said in Luke 11:42. Among them would be pastors, teachers, even church goers themselves who push something that is not of the Bible, those who not only follow God's Laws, but such ones who preach and attempt to convince others not to follow God's Laws, in addition, that of which Jesus had entrusted the church to do.

I quite agree.

18 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

I will take an example of a pastor you brought up before, Jeff Durbin,

please refresh my memory, when did I quote/refer to this Jeff Durbin? I'm not saying I didn't, just want to make sure we are on the same page. 

How can you write so much but yet not address what I mentioned? If you are going to respond to my post,  respond!  

 I think, like another has posted, that you try and write so much that the real topic bets buried under your ramblings about nothing relevant to the topic discussion. 

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

@Shiwiii The doors will eventually close, to not realize what is to come very soon only shows that people are sleeping on this matter as if it is water under the bridge. The very reason why there is time for people, for such is indeed Life or Death, this has not changed, and it is known that God has not changed on what his purpose and will entails for the righteous and meek, and what is to come for those who do not adhere to what he requires, what his Word says or his Laws.

The very reason those who are aware are vigilant, enduring, sacrificing, and the list goes on.

Simply being good, is not going to cut it, for there is a lot that is required in building and maintain faith, just as a bodybuilder takes care of his or her body, to maintain muscle and the like by means of exercise, rest and nourishment, the same applies for faith and adhering to what the bible says.

I agree with your statement here, but it is NOT the decision of any religious organization or any man as to when and who it shuts on. This is the part that stuck out in my mind and why it reminded me of that scripture. 

Think about the actual context of Chapter 23 of Matthew. Who was this chapter written about? Do we have "scribes" and "Pharisees" today? 

29 minutes ago, tromboneck said:

that just shows your woeful lack of spiritual discernment

Really? hmmm, ok....from someone who "likes" their own post to increase their status........

Please indulge me then with your expertise 

19 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I have a letter from the WTS dated in 1922 which answers a question sent in by a Bible Student about the possibility of more persons becoming a part of the "anointed class." The answer simply clarifies that the "door was closed" to new persons of that class in 1881, and that the only persons who might have still been chosen were only chosen in the rare event that someone who had already been chosen in 1881 had proven unfaithful after 1881 but before their final sealing.

This must have already been producing a "generation" problem even as early as 1922 which was 40 years after 1881. (The proofs for the 1881 date were confirmed by quoting some points from Russell's "Studies in the Scriptures.") That same claim about the door closing in 1881 was later used for 1935, along with the same claim of only unfaithful anointed being replaced after 1935. This is no longer stated this way, although there is still a clear level of discouragement associated with new ones who feel they might be of the anointed class.

But, yes, the harvest is primarily the anointed.

Every time I hear of this "closing the door" from the WT it reminds me of Matthew 23:13

¹³ “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.

58 minutes ago, Matthew9969 said:

Its a good thing they didn't have the governing body back in Jesus day, they would have disfellowshipped Jesus.

haven't they already?

28 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Certainly if JWs believed only THEY will be saved, that would defeat the purpose of the whole evangelizing work, now wouldn't it?

Actually no, since that is their carrot, that is the exact thing in which they use to lure in others. 

30 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

One can ask, do they truly believe that they themselves are the only ones who will be saved? The simple answer is no, and everyone knows how a Restorationist is and how they operate in this regard, mainly the ones who adhere to the early Christians and the early Church's structure.

How can you believe this when their publications state otherwise? 

31 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

They hold to, and even profess by evangelicalism, that many people that have lived centuries ago and who were not  one of Jehovah’s Witnesses will come back in  the resurrection and have an opportunity for life, as well as being granted of what the bible informs is about - eternal life, life that is everlasting.

This is actually their slight of hand tactic. I say this because they will say that "well, those folks never heard of our message" and that gives them the escape from the argument. It is a diversion from the actual beliefs that they currently hold. 

34 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

The 2006 source of which you linked: Your link is dead (x_x), so therefore, a response cannot be made to this one nor can your claims be taken as truth, unless you have a correct link of said information, until then, this claim is as empty as a drunkard's bottle.

I never meant for it to be linked. It kind of makes me chuckle that instead of addressing the quote, you dismiss it because the internet link doesn't work. Its equivalent to sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "LA LA LA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU" 

Your response to the 1990 quote says nothing about the fact that the wt says one MUST appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah's organization is essential to their salvation. Reworded it is saying that if one does not identify themselves as jw they have no salvation. Its the crucial element of this thread. You can wish it away all you 'd like, but the fact remains that in their publications it clearly states the answer to the question in the title of this thread. 

1 minute ago, Space Merchant said:

You seem to be missing the point of what I had addressed. It does not matter if one is a JW or not, was mention still stands.

I'm sorry but it is you who missed the point. The point is the title of this thread. 

 Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah's universal organization." Watchtower 2006 May 15 p.22

"They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah's organization is essential to their salvation." Kingdom Ministry 1990 Nov p.1

There is more if needed. 

12 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Other than that, all men are saved when they recognize God's purpose and will as well has his grace through his Son, in addition to maintaining faith and adhere to what the bible teaches. JWs, you, etc, only saved if you adhere to what is taught. Those in any group who do any thing of the accursed, even being ignorant of truth, well, you can throw in the hamburgers with the hotdogs too - there is no middle ground.

In general I agree with you on this view point, but unfortunately the wt does not as you can see from their publications I quoted above.