Shiwiii

haven't they already?

Actually no, since that is their carrot, that is the exact thing in which they use to lure in others. How can you believe this when their publications state otherwise? This is actually their slight of hand tactic. I say this because they will say that "well, those folks never heard of our message" and that gives them the escape from the argument. It is a diversion from the actual beliefs that they currently hold. I never meant for it to be linked. It kind of makes me chuckle that instead of addressing the quote, you dismiss it because the internet link doesn't work. Its equivalent to sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "LA LA LA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU" Your response to the 1990 quote says nothing about the fact that the wt says one MUST appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah's organization is essential to their salvation. Reworded it is saying that if one does not identify themselves as jw they have no salvation. Its the crucial element of this thread. You can wish it away all you 'd like, but the fact remains that in their publications it clearly states the answer to the question in the title of this thread.

I'm sorry but it is you who missed the point. The point is the title of this thread. Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah's universal organization." Watchtower 2006 May 15 p.22 "They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah's organization is essential to their salvation." Kingdom Ministry 1990 Nov p.1 There is more if needed. In general I agree with you on this view point, but unfortunately the wt does not as you can see from their publications I quoted above.

right here tells me you do not know the position of the jws and thus cannot dismiss the questions asked. again, not according to their teachings. You may want to believe that the jws think the way you do, but the reality is that the wt teaches otherwise. I can, if you require it, provide proof. You certainly write a lot, but I think some of that is to side track the actual topic in discussion and create an alternate argument about something not even relevant.

I don't even know what to think about your post. It addresses nothing I mentioned and goes off on some tangent to which has almost no relevance to the topic at hand. Basically JW Insider mentioned ctr and his self proclaiming and I'm sure some of that post was in reference to how the gb handle things currently, I just agreed and elaborated a little. You've said nothing to contradict the statements made in this thread, but it was nice reading.

I erased your text in my quote to save space. That still doesn't address the belief of jw's that unless you are a jw you will not be saved. QE mentioned that if one parent/guardian were a jw then the kids are safe, my point was that those kids who do not have a jw parent/guardian (according to jw beliefs) are burnt hotdogs. Is this or is this not the jw/wt stance on the matter? While your opinion may differ, which I hope it actually does, it is still the question being asked from the beginning of this thread.

My point was the similarities between the way ctr and the gb act according to what Jw Insider wrote. ctr is rejected in modern jws/wt and is considered "old light", however the actions of both are very similar. Now if you are saying that religious leaders are to lead the collective body, I have no disagreement, but the actions of those leaders are what I would consider something to inspect. The inspection should be done on a personal level and not by the collective group following the leader, so that ones who do not agree with the practices of said leader are free to deviate without repercussion. My example of this is those who were called Pharisees, religious leaders of the time, but far from the mark. The repercussion involved in deviation from their leadership resulted in death. now that is not exactly the case today, but it kinda is.

Manna and worms...... This observation of the very foundation of the jw religion today is very relevant and should be to all jws. The thinking of CTR is still very much the thinking of the gb. Just as JW Insider stated, CTR established himself as the supreme authority, God's mouthpiece, so too do the gb and their attitudes towards the R&F. How can you publish something like 'just do what we say, no matter if you think it is crazy from a human logical standpoint', and not see the parallels? Cognitive dissonance, that's how.

Why is the attendance of the parents contingent on the appearance of the son? Couldn't they just choose to continue to shun while there? Or would that give the impression of conditional love to all of the other family members in regards to how they treat their own flesh and blood? I'm thinking that IS the case. Wouldn't want the rest of the family to see how these two treat their own child. It might give insight into how they may be treated if they choose not to accept what the wt teaches.

But not all of them right? I mean the ones without jw parents are toast correct? As Tony Morris said "like human hotdogs"

WHAT?!?!?!?! I don't thin k he really knew what he said right there. yep. And that is why my personal belief is that like you said, there are plenty of organizations that have this and other corruptions, so my relationship with God is mine and mine alone. I align with a group of folks, but in the end I answer to God, not the group. There is an extent to organized religion where I will participate.

Couldn't agree more with your view here. Sadly it is NOT the view of the wt. They came out after the ARC and stated that they will NOT be changing the two witness rule no matter who says what. Pedo's don't normally invite a viewing party. This is the loophole that, maybe wasn't designed for this, is the perfect avenue for repeat abuse. The octo-popes of wt know this, but refuse to change for some reason. oh I am not ignoring this point, but rather magnifying it. You are correct that an abuser uses clever ways of carrying out the abuse, but why make it eaiser? Why give them a loophole? They've admitted that they will NOT change their stance. Maybe they did learn, but they refuse to put it into practice. agreed, and it should be done with qualified persons. Elders are not qualified, yet. I hope that one day there IS a training curriculum for them to be able to be qualified. Thank you for your thoughts and giving me, and the rest of us, a glimpse of your part of the world and its own view on things. I truly appreciate your contributions to this and other threads. To see an outsiders view, from a place where corruption is partly normal (isn't it everywhere on some scale), is refreshing. I agree with most of what you wrote and my only point in this whole thread is that the wt CAN make a difference. They CAN educate the elders, they CAN inform the police and they CAN make this official policy. They can do this without anything more than dropping their pride and accepting help in making it a reality. Obviously they cannot do it on their own, or they would have. Since they boast about the worldwide brotherhood adhering to the same teachings, they can make the necessary changes to at the least prevent ONE child from abuse. They can do that, they just refuse.

how do you know I don't? Do you have spyware on my computer or something? On top of that, it really makes no difference if I am or not. Facts are facts Allen. If its too hot in the kitchen, go outside! Â

Did you happen to forget where you are here? I thought we were on a forum about THE WATCHTOWER and Jehovah's witnesses. That being said, I think it is very appropriate to make such comments directly about the wt and single them out of the list the ARC provided. The issue is the way the wt handles these types of abuse cases. OK,ok,ok I'm sure you're better, have the biggest, fastest car with the nicest house or whatever, it doesn't mean I haven't read and watched the same ARC proceedings. Statistics are one thing, but as you will note JTR's post above, it means nothing if it is not relevant. What is relevant is the wt's consistency to hide its pedo's like the Catholic Church did. yes it is , you are correct. It is also a problem that some people and org's turn a blind eye to it or make it easier to continue. And with this, the wt has said "thank you very much, we'll do things our way anyway." I see your point, but hopefully you can see mine as well: If you see a problem, a serious problem at your workplace or neighborhood and it might bring harm to someone, do you just go to the city counsel or state department and speak up there or do you address the issue as it sits in your face? Have you ever heard the term "think globally, act locally" ? It makes the statement that one must clean their own before tackling the world, and by cleaning our own, each of us, the world naturally gets cleaner.

Thank you

Here lies the problem, you are interested in math and how adding numbers and dividing by the number of people who are not jws......etc. Instead of looking at how ANY child abuse case is handled within the org. THAT IS THE PROBLEM TOM, the org does not help the abused, but rather the abuser. That's the whole reason why the ARC investigated. And by the way, nothing in your post has any relation to the meaning of proactive.

I live near by but south

hey I know that place, how do you know that place?

being called to the carpet is NOT being proactive. Again, it is only jws who believe that the ARC was a good thing for the wt.

Give me a break, unless you mean cover up pedo's better than the Catholics. you are delusional. Is it keeping the cong clean when KNOWN pedo's are allowed to be reinstated and have access to kids again? Is it keeping the cong clean when an elders sin can be washed away by a loophole because he's an elder and anyone else who commits the same gets the shun? In the Shepherd the Flock of God book under the chapter "Appointment and Deletion of Elders and Ministerial Servants", on pg. 38, paragraph 19 it says: Again Tom, look at the world picture and not this little slice that you think makes the wt look good. By the way, it is ONLY the jws who think the WT looks good in OZ. you are correct, but it doesn't take the spotlight off of the wt when the practices of the wt foster this kind of behavior

What you, Space Merchant, Tom and anyone else minimizing the issue by focusing on one country and the small population of jws in said country, are missing the point. Think globally not locally. You are living in a dream world if you think OZ is a one off thing. Countries participating thus far that we know of: UK Holland USA Austraila Canada This is like the Olympics of investigation of the wt and their practices. Why would all of these countries be looking into the wt if there was no problem? They wouldn't

I agree it is about the money, but....................How can the average jw accept the words coming out of their mouths? How can the average jw not see what we see? How can the average jw not understand that this isn't "apostate lies" or fake news when it involves multiple countries? How can the average jw put their faith in an organization who is robbing the local kh's? How can the average jw..............makes my head hurt that there are people being scammed and lied to but they refuse to research and think for themselves.

Why won't the head of the wt org admit that abuse is a problem within the society (yes, I understand that j jackson has in a round about way admitted this) and that they are willing to accept help to protect the people within the org? Is it PRIDE? The Catholic Church has offered help to the jws in the upcoming Holland investigation. They're been there and done that and know what it takes to keep on ticking. The government of Australia has given recommendations. It appears that the head of the wt is more concerned with getting money, real estate, constant requests for voluntary donations, taking on the loans from local kh's only to make those payments by the local kh endless, special announcements and written articles on how to leave your estate to the wt (just make sure if its land that it is able to be sold), etc. Why is the focus not on the problem that keep rearing its head worldwide? The governments of The United States, Australia, the UK, Canada and most recently Holland all have seen that the wt is not about to help the situation, but rather do their best to hinder it. What good reason is there for the obstruction of justice and complete disregard for victims or the countries in which these things are being investigated? How can one believe that this org is being used by God at all? Doesn't the Bible say at 1 Peter 2:13-20 to be subject to those who govern over you and by doing right you silence the ignorance of foolish men? Seems to me that the wt leadership is doing the exact opposite. WHY?

February 19, 2018 TO ALL BODIES OF ELDERS IN THE UNITED STATES Re: Online Congregation Donations Using JW.ORG Dear Brothers: As outlined in our letter of January 22, 2018, online donations via jw.org are now available in the United States for congregations and circuits. The five-minute local needs part on the midweek meeting of March 5, 2018, will be used to explain this arrangement more fully to the congregation. We are now writing to provide more details on how this part will be handled. We are pleased to inform you that an excerpt from the video entitled “Making Donations Electronically” has been prepared for the congregation. This two-minute video provides a reminder of how to find the donation feature on jw.org, how to set up an account, and how to set up a recurring donation. The screenshots shown in the video have been updated to show the new layout of the donation page on jw.org that includes congregation and circuit donations. The video will soon be available in English and Spanish in the “Event Media” section under the “Documents” tab on jw.org. Begin the part by summarizing the announcement read the week of February 5, 2018, and playing the video. Thereafter, briefly mention the monthly local expenses that are covered by donations to your congregation. (See letter dated December 2, 2017, paragraphs 22, 23.) Highlight that the jw.org recurring donation feature can be used as a tool for budgeting donations to support these congregation expenses. (1 Cor. 16:2) Provide the congregation with the names of the elders or ministerial servants who have been selected by the body of elders to assist individuals with donations on jw.org. If your congregation has used KHDonate.net in the past, remind the congregation that this service will be discontinued on May 31, 2018, and that any questions about this discontinuation should be directed to KHDonate.net. Warmly commend the congregation for the generous support provided by the brothers and sisters. Please make sure to follow the feature activation steps before this part is presented, as outlined in the form Instructions for Processing Donations Made to the Congregation via JW.ORG. If the jw.org online donation feature for your congregation has not been activated before the part, inform the congregation of the date that it will be activated or that you have decided not to participate. If your congregation is attending a circuit assembly the week of March 5, 2018, this part may be scheduled for a future local needs part. Thank you for caring for these matters. We hope that this new provision will provide an additional opportunity for publishers in your congregation to make their local donations. Your brothers, ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yay, there is not an actual plate to pass, so we're all good and different then all those other churches we talk crap about. Why did there need to be a special announcement about donations? online specific to the .org. If you have to filter the donations from NY then back to the local, you're going to have to pay for it to get back to the local, by then there isn't much left so might as well just keep it in NY right? Oh and another thing, no paid clergy? Are the gb on the payroll?