Shiwiii

17 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

It does not matter if one is a Jehovah's Witnesses or not a Jehovah's Witnesses

right here tells me you do not know the position of the jws and thus cannot dismiss the questions asked. 

17 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

That being said, I believe the JWs made it clear, based on the bible, of who will be saved, it is safe to also mention they also believe others can be saved too, even outside of their faith, as long as those on the outside accepts what the bible says.

again, not according to their teachings. 

You may want to believe that the jws think the way you do, but the reality is that the wt teaches otherwise. I can, if you require it, provide proof.

You certainly write a lot, but I think some of that is to side track the actual topic in discussion and create an alternate argument about something not even relevant.  

I don't even know what to think about your post. It addresses nothing I mentioned and goes off on some tangent to which has almost no relevance to the topic at hand. Basically JW Insider mentioned ctr and his self proclaiming and I'm sure some of that post was in reference to how the gb handle things currently, I just agreed and elaborated a little. You've said nothing to contradict the statements made in this thread, but it was nice reading. 

3 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

 

I erased your text in my quote to save space. 

That still doesn't address the belief of jw's that unless you are a jw you will not be saved. QE mentioned that if one parent/guardian were a jw then the kids are safe, my point was that those kids who do not have a jw parent/guardian (according to jw beliefs) are burnt hotdogs. 

Is this or is this not the jw/wt stance on the matter? While your opinion may differ, which I hope it actually does, it is still the question being asked from the beginning of this thread. 

2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

You do realize how religious leaders position were in scripture? perhaps those who lead, speak and give insight to the tribes they lead? It is not outlandish for Jehovah's Witnesses to have religious leaders. As it was said by the Son of Man, in context, one shepherd to one flock, such ones together in Christ, as one, and such ones adhere to the teachings and learn of God the Father accordingly, such ones do not tolerance interfaith teachings that are clearly not of the church, let alone such ones do not take in the traditions of man into the church, I believe I mentioned something along the lines before.

Also it is worth to note that even those who do not agree with JWs, they agree with CTR, on the other side of the spectrum, there is hypocrisy though coming from the non-religious camps.

My point was the similarities between the way ctr and the gb act according to what Jw Insider wrote. ctr is rejected in modern jws/wt and is considered "old light", however the actions of both are very similar. Now if you are saying that religious leaders are to lead the collective body, I have no disagreement, but the actions of those leaders are what I would consider something to inspect. The inspection should be done on a personal level and not by the collective group following the leader, so that ones who do not agree with the practices of said leader are free to deviate without repercussion. My example of this is those who were called Pharisees, religious leaders of the time, but far from the mark. The repercussion involved in deviation from their leadership resulted in death. now that is not exactly the case today, but it kinda is. 

Manna and worms......

This observation of the very foundation of the jw religion today is very relevant and should be to all jws. The thinking of CTR is still very much the thinking of the gb. Just as JW Insider stated, CTR established himself as the supreme authority, God's mouthpiece, so too do the gb and their attitudes towards the R&F. How can you publish something like 'just do what we say, no matter if you think it is crazy from a human logical standpoint', and not see the parallels? 

Cognitive dissonance,    that's how. 

Why is the attendance of the parents contingent on the appearance of the son? Couldn't they just choose to continue to shun while there? Or would that give the impression of conditional love to all of the other family members in regards to how they treat their own flesh and blood? I'm thinking that IS the case. Wouldn't want the rest of the family to see how these two treat their own child. It might give insight into how they may be treated if they choose not to accept what the wt teaches.  

On 6/17/2018 at 7:27 PM, Queen Esther said:

And   NOT  forget  @Matthew9969....  Babies  and  little  children  are  holy  through  their  JW  parents !  ONE  is  enogh  -  Mom  or  Dad....

But not all of them right? I mean the ones without jw parents are toast correct? As Tony Morris said "like human hotdogs"

17 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

In fact, today the CO at my kingdom hall referenced child molestation as a way to verify that a religion DOES NOT have God's backing!

WHAT?!?!?!?! I don't thin k he really knew what he said right there. 

17 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

The way this has been handled proves that men are calling the shots here and not God. Only an imperfect human would think they could "contain the stink." Maybe they can prevent JWs from seeing the ugly truth, but they cannot conceal it from Jehovah God.

yep. And that is why my personal belief is that like you said, there are plenty of organizations that have this and other corruptions, so my relationship with God is mine and mine alone. I align with a group of folks, but in the end I answer to God, not the group.  There is an extent to organized religion where I will participate. 

On 2/28/2018 at 10:00 PM, Space Merchant said:

One thing to note is that what is important is that the Watchtower will have to better clarify policies, rules and the like to some elders who are not as experience in handling such situations for any person who is inexperienced in something will not do their job any justice or any position they are appointed to.

Couldn't agree more with your view here. Sadly it is NOT the view of the wt. They came out after the ARC and stated that they will NOT be changing the two witness rule no matter who says what. Pedo's don't normally invite a viewing party. This is the loophole that, maybe wasn't designed for this, is the perfect avenue for repeat abuse. The octo-popes of wt know this, but refuse to change for some reason. 

On 2/28/2018 at 10:00 PM, Space Merchant said:

In addition to that, you are also ignoring that even predators themselves will even con their way into the heads of good persons so they won't get caught, in some situations, the predator can be very violent or the roles could easily be switched with the victim's relatives taking vengeance into their own hands, something of which I most defiantly know any JW wouldn't want to be involved in such, for even other institutions be it religious and or educational themselves wouldn't want to get involved either should things escalate.

oh I am not ignoring this point, but rather magnifying it. You are correct that an abuser uses clever ways of carrying out the abuse, but why make it eaiser? Why give them a loophole? 

On 2/28/2018 at 10:00 PM, Space Merchant said:

Check the reports again. For at least, they learnt something and this time they can better clarify things too for those who are not well-versed in handling such situations.

They've admitted that they will NOT change their stance. Maybe they did learn, but they refuse to put it into practice. 

On 2/28/2018 at 10:00 PM, Space Merchant said:

Educate members also the parents, even outside of religion, parents seem to not do as much, for example, a little girl nearly becoming a victim because her parents didn't monitor a game she was playing, Minecraft of course, whereas the predator was able to convince her to leave her house. Thank Jah the girl was saved -  This actually took place several days ago.

But it wouldn't hurt to educate some people, if some of us can do it, you can also. The JWs will have to get on the ball for it, but, they do have publications regarding child abuse, so such information can be used to help the members, and possibly reduction of any persons becoming victims of abuse, for one of the victims even stated she didn't know she sex abuse was until she read the publications regarding it.

Another factor is, some JWs at their churches tend to be more connected as a family unit than other JW churches, this is just from the African and Hispanic ones I am familiar with, for they are not just a family, but bounded by their culture also, more of a connect prevents abuse from happening, but not every JW church has this luxury nor do every church of any denomination.

agreed, and it should be done with qualified persons. Elders are not qualified, yet. I hope that one day there IS a training curriculum for them to be able to be qualified.

On 2/28/2018 at 10:00 PM, Space Merchant said:

In the end, the world can't be clean 100%, nor can everything be perfect for nothing can be prevented and stopped to its entirety, I do respect that comment though, but it is what it is regarding how this world is now. We can just suppress something briefly only for it it to happen again and or elsewhere, for you can stop a danger here, and there, but you can't stop it over here. We carry our troubles, our anxieties, stress, and even death on our backs as if it was a backpack filled with books. But keeps us going is doing the good that we can, even though such good acts is seen as insignificant to others, as well as our family, and most importantly, our faith and love for God, and the actions and examples His Son has left for us to follow.

There is good people who do good, and there is bad people with the intent to do bad, and will tickle the ears of good persons just so they can have their way, pretending to be repentant even, but eventually, it will be too late before the good person realizes it - but the actions of a bad apple or two does not justify the attack of other good people. I say this because I have a good reason, biblical ones, as to why I stay in my own lane.

Thank you for your thoughts and giving me, and the rest of us, a glimpse of your part of the world and its own view on things. I truly appreciate your contributions to this and other threads. To see an outsiders view, from a place where corruption is partly normal (isn't it everywhere on some scale), is refreshing. I agree with most of what you wrote and my only point in this whole thread is that the wt CAN make a difference. They CAN educate the elders, they CAN inform the police and they CAN make this official policy. They can do this without anything more than dropping their pride and accepting help in making it a reality. Obviously they cannot do it on their own, or they would have. Since they boast about the worldwide brotherhood adhering to the same teachings, they can make the necessary changes to at the least prevent ONE child from abuse. They can do that, they just refuse. 

45 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

Then why don’t you carry your concerns to OTHER forums of faith to discuss their failures as seen through your eyes? I havenÂ’t seen you, witness, Srecko, or any other hypocrite ATTACK any other religion as you do with the Watchtower OK! OK! OK! So, Step down off your high horse, Mister. You don't get lard unless you boil the hog!

how do you know I don't? Do you have spyware on my computer or something? On top of that, it really makes no difference if I am or not. Facts are facts Allen. If its too hot in the kitchen, go outside! 

 

55 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

No one is minimizing anything, for it is you who do not understand, we read the case studies and the final reports, you haven't, which is evident in your previous comments. For we take into account of the information we have before us and understand where the ARC's conclusion is about, some of us, like me, have been following ARC since 2012 (there is a HUGE timeline and it is on their website), for I didn't just jump on the ship very late into the game as you obviously did, use the line and read everything of all cases and reports and the very beginning of ARC actions towards the religious groups.

And no, don't bring the Olympics into this because last I check your focus was solely on the Watchtower, for if you did care about the child abuse issues than your comment would have been regarding all children not just children from a  single group, obliviously a single tarted religious group for all your questions and comments in your first post was directed to the Watchtower only or do you not recall what you even posted?

For we were talking about solely child abuse, we wouldn't be focused solely on a religion, let alone a religious group, but even if outside things are mentioned, people who read things are aware of things and do not jump to claims and assumptions of others over what is true.

Did you happen to forget where you are here? I thought we were on a forum about THE WATCHTOWER and Jehovah's witnesses. That being said, I think it is very appropriate to make such comments directly about the wt and single them out of the list the ARC provided.  The issue is the way the wt handles these types of abuse cases. OK,ok,ok I'm sure you're better, have the biggest, fastest car with the nicest house or whatever, it doesn't mean I haven't read and watched the same ARC proceedings. Statistics are one thing, but as you will note JTR's post above, it means nothing if it is not relevant. What is relevant is the wt's consistency to hide its pedo's like the Catholic Church did.  

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

It is agreeable that child abuse is a problem. But some people do not understand that, which I have said time and time again to which some seem to ignore it, is a worldwide global issue when it comes to violence and sexual immorality, this includes child abuse. It takes place in schools, religions, clubs, even businesses that there to support children, sports, etc.

yes it is , you are correct. It is also a problem that some people and org's turn a blind eye to it or make it easier to continue. 

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

As for the Watchtower, the Final reports in ARC has given them something to look into, to better clarify the rules to elders in the faith.

And with this, the wt has said "thank you very much, we'll do things our way anyway." 

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

If you want to fight child abuse of any kind, there are smart and better ways of doing it. Trying to bring down a religion isn't the best way of doing it, for what difference is there between you and the anti-religion, black flag and cross wielding, people who want to see all faiths by knocked down permanently?

I see your point, but hopefully you can see mine as well:

If you see a problem, a serious problem at your workplace or neighborhood and it might bring harm to someone, do you just go to the city counsel or state department and speak up there or do you address the issue as it sits in your face? Have you ever heard the term "think globally, act locally" ?  It makes the statement that one must clean their own before tackling the world, and by cleaning our own, each of us, the world naturally gets cleaner. 

1 minute ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Yes, they are concerned with the smaller picture, not the greater overall one.

Thank you

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

If greater Australia experienced child sexual abuse in the same proportion that Jehovah's Witnesses did, it would have reported 4,266 incidences, not 41, 621. (Do the math, or find somebody who can)

Here lies the problem, you are interested in math and how adding numbers and dividing by the number of people who are not jws......etc. Instead of looking at how ANY child abuse case is handled within the org. THAT IS THE PROBLEM TOM, the org does not help the abused, but rather the abuser. That's the whole reason why the ARC investigated. 

And by the way, nothing in your post has any relation to the meaning of proactive. 

32 minutes ago, Nana Fofana said:

Well, since I already self-dox to  max, as not gno anythings how darpanets is working?  - I will confest I use to living near dis, in Dana Point, for a few years and have been back to visit some, too.  

How you know?

I live near by but south

1 hour ago, Nana Fofana said:

or nearby?

hey I know that place, how do you know that place? 

2 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The spotlight is only on them because they were proactive enough to look into something everyone else ran away from. Other faiths did not know or want to know whether members actually applied Bible teachings or not. Through neglect of what turns out to be a most serious problem, they produced no record for the ARC or anyone else to hold hearings on.

The other case studies the ARC investigated (there were 57 altogether) were social or govenment institutions or schools, who tracked abuse incidents. Other religions did not touch such things.

The finding that should be spotlighted, though it was not because its mission was something else, is that children appear to be 10 times safer in the Witness community than in the general Austrailain popluation. 

being called to the carpet is NOT being proactive. Again, it is only jws who believe that the ARC was a good thing for the wt. 

8 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Because the Watchtower did what no one else was proactive enough to do. 

Give me a break, unless you mean cover up pedo's better than the Catholics. you are delusional. 

10 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

With an eye to keeping clean as a congregation before God's eyes - as clean as possible - which the Bible obligates Christians to do, they chose to look into reports of abuse, and not hide their heads in the sand, as did everyone else.

Is it keeping the cong clean when KNOWN pedo's are allowed to be reinstated and have access to kids again? Is it keeping the cong clean when an elders sin can be washed away by a loophole because he's an elder and anyone else who commits the same gets the shun? 

In the Shepherd the Flock of God book under the chapter "Appointment and Deletion of Elders and Ministerial Servants", on pg. 38, paragraph 19 it says:

If it comes to light or an appointed brother confesses that he has committed a disfellowshipping offense years in the past: The body of elders may determine he can continue to serve if the following is true: The immorality or other serious wrongdoing occurred more than a few years ago, and he is genuinely repentant, recognizing that he should have come forward immediately when he sinned. (Perhaps he has even confessed to his sin, seeking help with his guilty conscience.) He has been serving faithfully for many years, has evidence of God's blessing, and has the respect of the congregation.

24 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

That is why there is this list of 1006 over 60 years that you and Rook have focused on. 

Again Tom, look at the world picture and not this little slice that you think makes the wt look good. By the way, it is ONLY the jws who think the WT looks good in OZ. 

25 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Everyone else (except for clergy) have had crimes of child sexual abuse discovered independently by authorities, and no connection is ever made with whatever religion they belong to.

you are correct, but it doesn't take the spotlight off of the wt when the practices of the wt foster this kind of behavior

On 2/24/2018 at 9:06 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

Because it is not, relatively speaking.

Study 54 of the report, a follow-up to Study 29, makes possible an apples-to-apples comparison. Study 54 looked at the 17 instances of child abuse from the Witness organization that had been reported in the interim, from August 2015 to January 2017. Nine were historical cases and none involved an elder. All occurred in a familial setting. Of the seventeen, two had refused to report as they were adult survivors and it was their right not to report. The number of Witnesses in all Australia at the time was 67,418.

An apples-to-apples comparison becomes possible with a pool size large enough to be significant. Out of a total national Australian population of 23,968,973, The Australian Institute of Family Studies reported 41,622 notifications of child sexual abuse, (2014-2015) and the Commission likely reviewed some of them. Seemingly, the safest place a child could be was in the Jehovah’s Witness community, for proportionately, one would have expected 117 incidents, 100 more than the actual number. (The disparity is even greater, since a 17 month period for the Witnesses is compared to a 12-month period for all Australia) Do the math discover from these figures that a child is ten times safer in the Witness community than in the overall world.

What the ARC criticized was procedures for handling abuse cases that have occured. It was not their mission to look at whether, in a given setting, abuse was more or less likely to happen in the first place. Had it been, they would have awarded JWs a Family Glory award, just like Putin did to the Russian Witness family.

What you, Space Merchant, Tom and anyone else minimizing the issue by focusing on one country and the small population of jws in said country, are missing the point. Think globally not locally. You are living in a dream world if you think OZ is a one off thing. 

Countries participating thus far that we know of:

UK

Holland

USA

Austraila

Canada

This is like the Olympics of investigation of the wt and their practices.  Why would all of these countries be looking into the wt if there was no problem? They wouldn't

I agree it is about the money, but....................How can the average jw accept the words coming out of their mouths?

How can the average jw not see what we see? 

How can the average jw not understand that this isn't "apostate lies" or fake news when it involves multiple countries? 

How can the average jw put their faith in an organization who is robbing the local kh's? 

How can the average jw..............makes my head hurt that there are people being scammed and lied to but they refuse to research and think for themselves. 

Why won't the head of the wt org admit that abuse is a problem within the society (yes, I understand that j jackson has in a round about way admitted this) and that they are willing to accept help to protect the people within the org? Is it PRIDE? The Catholic Church has offered help to the jws in the upcoming Holland investigation. They're been there and done that and know what it takes to keep on ticking. The government of Australia has given recommendations.  It appears that the head of the wt is more concerned with getting money, real estate, constant requests for voluntary donations, taking on the loans from local kh's only to make those payments by the local kh endless, special announcements and written articles on how to leave your estate to the wt (just make sure if its land that it is able to be sold), etc.  Why is the focus not on the problem that keep rearing its head worldwide? The governments of The United States, Australia, the UK, Canada and most recently Holland all have seen that the wt is not about to help the situation, but rather do their best to hinder it. What good reason is there for the obstruction of justice and complete disregard for victims or the countries in which these things are being investigated? How can one believe that this org is being used by God at all? Doesn't the Bible say at 1 Peter 2:13-20 to be subject to those who govern over you and by doing right you silence the ignorance of foolish men? Seems to me that the wt leadership is doing the exact opposite. 

WHY? 

February 19, 2018 TO ALL BODIES OF ELDERS IN THE UNITED STATES Re: Online Congregation Donations Using JW.ORG

Dear Brothers:

As outlined in our letter of January 22, 2018, online donations via jw.org are now available in the United States for congregations and circuits. The five-minute local needs part on the midweek meeting of March 5, 2018, will be used to explain this arrangement more fully to the congregation. We are now writing to provide more details on how this part will be handled.

We are pleased to inform you that an excerpt from the video entitled “Making Donations Electronically” has been prepared for the congregation. This two-minute video provides a reminder of how to find the donation feature on jw.org, how to set up an account, and how to set up a recurring donation. The screenshots shown in the video have been updated to show the new layout of the donation page on jw.org that includes congregation and circuit donations. The video will soon be available in English and Spanish in the “Event Media” section under the “Documents” tab on jw.org.

Begin the part by summarizing the announcement read the week of February 5, 2018, and playing the video. Thereafter, briefly mention the monthly local expenses that are covered by donations to your congregation. (See letter dated December 2, 2017, paragraphs 22, 23.) Highlight that the jw.org recurring donation feature can be used as a tool for budgeting donations to support these congregation expenses. (1 Cor. 16:2) Provide the congregation with the names of the elders or ministerial servants who have been selected by the body of elders to assist individuals with donations on jw.org. If your congregation has used KHDonate.net in the past, remind the congregation that this service will be discontinued on May 31, 2018, and that any questions about this discontinuation should be directed to KHDonate.net. Warmly commend the congregation for the generous support provided by the brothers and sisters.

Please make sure to follow the feature activation steps before this part is presented, as outlined in the form Instructions for Processing Donations Made to the Congregation via JW.ORG. If the jw.org online donation feature for your congregation has not been activated before the part, inform the congregation of the date that it will be activated or that you have decided not to participate. If your congregation is attending a circuit assembly the week of March 5, 2018, this part may be scheduled for a future local needs part.

Thank you for caring for these matters. We hope that this new provision will provide an additional opportunity for publishers in your congregation to make their local donations.

Your brothers,

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yay, there is not an actual plate to pass, so we're all good and different then all those other churches we talk crap about. 

Why did there need to be a special announcement about donations? online specific to the .org. If you have to filter the donations from NY then back to the local, you're going to have to pay for it to get back to the local, by then there isn't much left so might as well just keep it in NY right? 

Oh and another thing, no paid clergy? Are the gb on the payroll? 

On 2/13/2018 at 11:18 AM, Witness said:

The early congregations were simply the gathering of anointed and believers who followed Christ.  There was no system where men relayed the necessity to answer to an organization.  That developed with centralized religion. 

Jesus’ words to the woman at the well tell this story. 

Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.²² You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. ²³ But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. ²⁴ God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”  John 4:21-24

When he left the earth, the apostles worshiped in spirit and truth.  Now again, the hour is here where true worship is restored, in spirit and truth.  No earthly “mountain” will be recognized as the place to worship – no earthly organization can bring us to salvation.  The spiritual Temple and the only Temple God recognizes is the dwelling of God’s spirit within the hearts of faithful anointed ones.  To seek out this Temple, leads one to ‘living water’ of Christ. John 7:38; 15:4  They are those who remain in Christ and teach truth in Christ, not doctrines of men. 

The organization has reverted to the early temple analogy, treating its buildings as “temples”, and has rejected the true Temple built on “living stones”. 1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22   There are restored “living stones”, who are the dwelling place of God’s spirit… (2 Cor 6:16; Jer 30:3,18-22)

Excellent description and support with scripture. I could have just given the happy face vote or the up arrow vote, but I felt it more appropriate to actually write it out.  

32 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Seeing the user who down-voted, it is no surprise. That being said, Pedophilia is a globe problem. There should be more information of all faiths. Even on my faith it is not safe from such imperfections of men.

This user: https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/profile/15212-defenderott/

As for the Catholic church and other faiths, no one is a stranger to what goes on in churches of any kind when it comes to child abuse and or pedophilia, this goes for educational organizations and activities that puts said individual in the present space of children. This also goes for any form of abuse or sexual assault of anyone in regards to work places/places of employment too.

There was an interesting website I was told about a few years back, if I can recall it I can link it here.

I agree with you, it is a problem/sickness/crime that infiltrates every part of the world.  There are no groups 100% clean of such persons. However, it is how each group/org reacts to the situations that makes or breaks the uprightness of said group.

My purpose of bringing up the Catholic Church in this is because of the hypocrisy in which they (the wt and jws in general) condemned the Catholics for their mishandling of the same cases they now have on their plate and doing as the Catholics did,...try to hide it. 

You get a downvote for posting a map of facts? 

Its the equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling "la la la la la la, I can't hear you" because they don't want to hear the "truth"

Funny that they didn't have this same attitude about the facts when it was the Catholic Church doing the same thing and trying to hide it. 

15 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

WHY I follow

This is the question. Especially with what you KNOW...