Shiwiii

Here is another: Matthew 24:24-27 "For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." Clearly here we are told that there will come some who proclaim that Jesus returned and you just didn't see Him, because He came invisibly. That just isn't true and doesn't line up with the Bible which clearly states His return WILL be visible.

but this admittance proves that they were NOT a continuation of the disciples as you claim. If they were then they would not have deviated, unless of course they were led by a power not from God. Then why did you claim that there was? Here is your quote:

but it is a practice that the jws/bible students participated in prior to 1935 or so. So what this means is, your claim "they are the ones who did not follow the false teachings........" cannot be true based on your ideas of what is false teachings. There is no mention of jws/bible students, as the groups we know today/last century, in the Bible. So your claim that they are the continuation of the disciples, is false unless you can provide proof otherwise.

You are correct, but the topic being discussed is what you posted: You need to prove such claims, and without proof then I may as well just say that cats are the direct lineage of the teachers of the bible students. If I said it it must be true, just as you have been told that jws/bible students are a continuation from the disciples by men who run the wt, so it also must be true. by the way, I proved to you in a earlier response that your "they are the ones who did not follow the false teachings........" cannot be true based on your ideas of what is false......Worshiping Jesus and Christmas.

How can you even believe that. The wt has gone from worshiping Jesus in the 1920's and celebrating Christmas to none of that in less than a 60 year span. So the basics of the beliefs are not even close to the original founding. Again, is there any documentation about the bible students in the 1500's? 1600's? anything prior to the late 1800's?

especially in tight pants huh?

This simply cannot be the case because the org has morphed so much within the last 100 years that it is no longer even close to what the bible students were. So in the 16th century, what were the teaching of the jws/bible students? Is there ANY documentation of what they taught before the 1700's?

This is exactly the problem that is being brought up with the Campo case as well as others. It is this THE problem. Of course we all know that there is evil people within every organization, its just in some peoples nature. This is a problem. When the rules of any organization not only allow this kind of action to happen, but create an umbrella of protection not to the victims but rather to the perpetrator, then you know that things have to change. Its even more appalling when there is a refusal to make necessary changes to protect the victims and instead look the other way. The way the wtbts handles cases of abuse is down right wrong. NONE of those elders are qualified to conduct such investigations, nor are they in any power to make a change to the org as a whole. It has to come from the top down. My question to not only you JTR, but the rest of the jw's here is, if God is backing this org, then why the refusal to protect children? Why the lies and cover ups? Why the willingness to throw tons of money at court cases to hide pedophiles? Is that what God wants? Does He really support an org that not only allows this kind of behavior but fosters a shelter for those who practice this sort of evil? Statistics can be made out of anything. For example did anyone poll just how many of those folks are redhead? I'm sure the ratio of redhead folks within the org is less than that of AU as a whole. Does this make jws better because there are less redheads molesting kids? No where in the writings of the ARC does anything imply that children are safer within the org, that was just something you spun up. The problem isn't about statistics, its about facts. The facts are that the jw org protects pedophiles. I don't care if it was 50 less than the population average or 1000, the problem is the pedophile paradise that is now being associated with the jw org. now I'm wetting myself. wetting myself because there are people who are seeing facts about how this org conducts itself. Hey Tom, I noticed you dropped your tirade over coming to Jesus. Seems to be a pattern with you anytime we discuss something. You think you've got the "gotcha" to the discussion all lined up, but it never pans out so you resort to the "wetting" "orgasm" sort of comments.

you don't even have to catch them all, just try not putting the ones who admit it with kids. Also on top of that, how about reporting these accusation to the police who are trained to handle these situations?

So what you mean is that by knowing that Gonzalo Campo molested kids and making him an elder and putting him with other kids, is just a byproduct of doing God will? Also, keeping him in the cong keeps him from slipping out and into another one? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-2816630/13-5M-award-Jehovahs-Witnesses-molest-case.html Isn't this a job for the police? Why is it discouraged to report? Oh and don't give me that BS about "we don't discourage" yes they do. Those "elders" are not even qualified to hold a conversation about psychology let alone actually try and do anything about abuse. Keep drinking that glass of water with the drop of poison in it.

And this was your actual question! Was it not? You asked what does one benefit from coming to Jesus, and NOW you want to complain about the answer being about what does one gain? Do you even realize what you write sometimes? Have you been checked for multiple personalities? ignorant claims as you do not know my "brand" exactly, but try telling that the the thousands who were molested by members of your "brand" only to have their abusers covered up and protected. That doesn't exactly spell learning to be nice now does it? What does tight pants have to do with Bible principals? Tony Morris seems to think it is of importance and biblical Where in the Bible does blood fractions come into play? Where in the Bible does immunizations get banned and then allowed? Why can't people make their minds up on if a birthday is ok or not? Why does it have to be a threat to banish a person if they participate in Christmas? Why is there so much controlling going on in your "brand" ? Was Jesus that controlling? I think not

The ridiculousness of attaching political people into the question is where you have gone astray. That is the side portion of your question which becomes your gig, your laugh. You see if you were actually serious none of that would have found its way into your agenda. Now to answer you seriously: What are the benefits of Coming to Jesus? Your sins are forgiven, the moment you accept Jesus into your heart and ask Him to forgive you. Done deal. Matt. 9:2 is a great example. By the man's faith, Jesus forgave him. His burden is light, why? Because He takes that pressure away from you. He give your rest (Matt 11:25-30) There is no fear of losing anything, privileges, friends, family, you don't lose but rather gain. You gain the peace and joy of being a child of God (Romans 8:15-17, 1 John 5:1). There is no obligation to do anything, except the works of God. What are those works? John 6:29 "... believe in the one who He sent" (Jesus). You will be led by the Holy Spirit. (Luke 12:12) This is much like having a friend guide you through life and warning you about the dangers of your decisions. The Spirit of God dwells within you to direct you. (Romans 8:11) Jesus does not try and trap you or trick you, it is a freedom to follow Him. It is also very easy to leave Him if you'd like. He does not threaten you to keep you under submission, He does not announce to others that you have left. He simply continues and He knows who will and who won't follow Him, so there is no surprise. He knows and Romans 8:28 tells us what the plan for those who do is, all things will work together for good for those who love God and are called according to His purpose. We are given eternal life. When is this given? Now. John 6:40. We have the knowledge and comfort in knowing that right now we can know for certain that we have eternal life with Jesus. This is not a maybe "if you do enough" or "if you're nice enough" it is a given. 1 John 5:11&12. Jesus is the mediator between the Father and humans. Jesus came in human form so that we can relate to Him and He can be our mediator. He is our spokesperson when we fail (1 John 2:1&2). The Bible tells us that there is NO other mediator, not a group of men, not a religion, not the Pope nor the octo-popes. Jesus is our personal mediator. He tells us that He is the only way. (John 14:6, Hebrews 7:25) There is no other way to God, but through Jesus, so one MUST come to Jesus in order to be right with God. He must become the narrow gate in which we must pass (Matt 7:13). I think this is enough to answer your question. While there is much more, I really don't think you are interested in the answer, just a sort of game to see if I would jump through your hoops. Well I did, but it wasn't for just you.

Have you read the Bible? I mean really? The benefits are clearly spelled out for all to see. You should try it sometime, without the forced interpretation the wt gives. I understand what you are doing here and I'm not playing your game Tom.

How would I know? The opportunity for you to research is there if you really want to know.

I agree, but I think many don't even realize the speech coming out of their mouth isn't their own. As it should be. All should have that freedom to examine and choose without fear. and this is acceptable? This is the best game in town? If that is true, then there is no game It's all a shell game made by man that cannot be won. By the admittance of those "outside influences" making the changes that should have been, are you not then acknowledging that the org has not been guided by God?

But isn't that, when it all boils down to it, you are?

for that then I apologize. It IS wt speak though and you have to admit that. How can this be demonstrated beyond "I just know"? And please read my answer to Tom as it applies here too. Is He blessing by means of exposure to the practices and cover ups of the abuse rampant throughout the org? It certainly appears that way in these last 4 years. what are these outside forces? news media and governments holding the flashlight on them to force the changes that should have happened long ago? point being is why should such an article (magazine) be the focus instead of the Bible itself and the practices written within it?

Why be so quick to align with a group? Is it that group mentality that makes it impossible for many to just simply come to Jesus? Jesus is the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE. The org is not the "truth" nor the way and they claim life exclusively to whom they deem worthy, placing themselves in the seat of Jesus. Why is there a need for wt mags and awake mags when the Bible is sufficient? It has been for centuries, until a group decided it wasn't enough and put people in boxes and made hoops for them to jump through.

This, while true in ancient biblical times because we are told by God's word, is only a prop created by the gb/wt. The same can be said of each and every religious organization on the Earth today, if their followers will believe it. You see, the wt/gb have been saying they are "the only game in town" for so long, some people actually believe that they are. Its only those who choose to challenge that theory, who actually see that it is self professed and not "written in God's word". This is wt talk at its finest. It poses the reader in the position of either you agree with the wt or you have no discernment. Question the answers JTR.

Sadly, you are correct. What does that say about the acceptance of such policies and practices? To me it says that the avg jw may not like it, but has to swallow it because the gb/wt says so. The silence is an indication to me of one of two things or both, shame and/or ignorance. Remember the wt article where they said to accept what we say even if it sounds absurd and against your better judgement (I paraphrased the article)? Is this what they were talking about or is more to come? If this was it, then who in their right mind with ANY morals, biblical or not, can accept the way that the wt org handles abuse of any kind?

I've read some interesting information that has leaked from the wt through various sources and was curious what this group thought. It has to do with the plethora of known child molesters and the covering of those individuals. I'm sure this isn't too much of new news as we have already experienced the ARC (Australian Royal Commission) and the position made by gb Geoffrey Jackson and the folks in charge in Australia. From what I have heard from the average jw is that the ARC was made all just made up lies by apostates to make the org look bad. Well here comes round two? three? The evidence is pretty damaging to the way in which the org cares for its children and their staunch position to keep the org in a good light regardless of who may be collateral damage. While I won't post the actual link to what has been distributed, it is quite easy to find. Look up Faithleaks and then the latest press release. Now I am quite sure there are going to be some here, quite a few actually, who would rather ignore things like this instead of actually finding out if in fact it is true or not. I don't find that in any way unusual from jws actually. When someone is told not to question the answers given, only listen-obey-and be blessed, then the only ones who will actually question those answers are those who actually care about others. After all, isn't that what we are commanded to do by Jesus? Care for others and you would yourself. This is why I am posting this, because if these things were constantly being brought forth about an organization I belonged to, I could not dismiss the claims that ring very similar from country to country. I would have to find out more. Is this all just apostate lies all around the world made up by people who left the org, or could there be some truth to it? Also, its not like there is a single organization on this planet that is without its faults or bad people who reside within the org, but it is more about how the org deals with these matters. So the simple question posed in this thread is do you approve of the way the wt handles abuse (child, domestic, sexual, etc.)? Do you know how the wt deals with such cases?

Ding Ding Ding Ding, I take "what we are allowed to read and what is forbidden" for three hundred Alex. Hey, isn't that why the WT pulled the Trinity book in the first place? Something about the quotes used were taken out of context and those whom the WT quoted fought back?

I've already given you the example from your post, but you choose to ignore your own comment and try and twist it into my assumption of what is and what is not critical thinking. Its really sad seeing you back track and try to justify your position by making the onus on me for the comments you made and trying to use Jesus to back you up. It all falls flat Tom. Wake up.

I really cannot believe this is your actual position. I am in awe, and not in the meaning of awesome. You mean to tell us that you prefer mindless adherence over critical thought? After reading your post........yes, this is exactly what you want and prefer.