Shiwiii

Can you provide proof that the wt had this teaching prior to Gerber, and merely used him as support? I seem to think that the NWT wasn't even in existence until the 40's/50's? Prior to then the wt used the KJV and the KJV does not have the same teachings as Gerber. Just because you say it doesn't, doesn't make it so. The real evidence is the Bible itself: Genesis 3:1, John 8:44, Matt 4:5-7 Satan may quote scripture correctly, but uses it out of context. Just as we see with Eve and Jesus. He quoted perfectly, but changed the meaning to trick. So it does matter the source, because there are motives behind the source which do not align with the Word of God. Â

How do YOU make this determination? I seriously want to know.

YES IT DOES, because Satan quoted out of context just as the wt does.

And so this makes it ok to accept teachings from demon inspired people, when God prohibits it? I'm not sure about you, but my God does not approve and tells me that through His word we can gather all the teachings He wants us to know by the means of the Holy Spirit. John 16:13-15

Yes, and even if they distance themselves from it now, it is still the basis of the nwt.

I think you may have read into what Alessandro posted. I don't see where Alessandro said God would off them because of modern doctrines. What I saw and agree with is the responsibility of a Christian to warn/discuss issues with those around them who may have been mislead. If those folks are so narrow minded to not listen and see things from a different perspective, mind you no one said accept the opposing position, then we have done what we are supposed to do. For someone to adopt an opposing position, one must first accept discussion.

I completely agree

TTH, did you not read the latest on how to treat apostate ones? LOL You might want to take a refresher course, there is no NICE apostates.........Just ask Ray Franz......oh wait, you can't. You can see how he was treated though. He was a very nice man

James 4:1 is speaking about the conflicts which arose around the time James wrote, between the Jews, which were about which of the 12 tribes had more power and ability to take the issues to court. See James 2:5-6. This was showing favoritism and oppressing the poor by taking them to courts and establishing a false power by means of wealth. All of the book of James is directed towards the Jews who were Christian about the practical aspects of the Christian faith. This has nothing to do with fighting among the members of the church per se, but more so about the inward fighting among each individual about carnal desires. It is our own desires that conflict within us to envy, lust, hatred, etc.

Now I think you are being silly and trying to confuse not only me but all those around here. I was addressing this stance: "Who are no part of the world and learn war no more? Again, the historical record of the 20th century testifies: only Jehovah's Witnesses." Watchtower 1992 Apr 1 p.12

So why didn't you just get on board and swallow it down while nodding your head? I mean I've heard that the gb mostly right, so shouldn't that be enough to turn your head and look the other way when you know they are teaching wrongs?

It kind of blows a huge hole in the wt's stance that jw's do not go to war. That was my point. This just proves that the whole not going to war thing is made up by men, and it is those men who impose these additional teachings upon their followers. Hence the relation to the topic and conversation by Otto, Witness and I.

its not that, it is more about the fact that jw's do NOT go to war and kill. How will they then if that is the stance now?

This was the answer I was figuring. So how can this be if they do not go to war?

Agreed Utter rubbish, I see no mention of abstaining from Christmas, Easter, Birthdays Etc. in any of the scriptures you mentioned.....nor any other scriptures. It is only in the wt publications is that mentioned. This is in direct opposition to Colossians 2:16 as I stated above. true Unsubstantiated claim to align yourself with what you think is the "truth", since none of that can be found in scripture. You are correct here, it is only by faith that we have salvation (1 Thes 5:9, 2 Tim 3:15). Not any org, not a group of men, nothing but Faith. What scriptures support this statement? I mean, what scripture was not available when the cross, Christmas and 1925 were all practiced by jw's? Can you provide these scriptures that changed the views of the gb? By the way, I'd prefer NO organization, . You can't be serious.....here are just a few: 1967 "We cannot claim to love God, yet deny his word and channel of communication." (Watchtower, October 1, 1967, p. 591) 1973 "Consider too, the fact that Jehovah's organization alone in all the earth is directed by God's holy spirit or active force." (Watchtower, July 1, 1973, page 402) 1976 "We must take seriously what his Word says and what his organization reveals to us.... Would not a failure to respond to direction from God through his organization really indicate a rejection of divine rulership?" (Watchtower, February 15, 1976, p. 214) 1984 "Faith in Jehovah, faith in those whom he is using as spokesmen, yes, faith in his organization! As we 'go out' to Jehovah's service today, how important it is that we exercise such faith!" (Watchtower July 1, 1984 p17) 1981 "Prophecies open up to us as Jehovah's holy spirit sheds light upon them, and as they are fulfilled in world events or in the experiences of God's people." (Watchtower, December 1, 1981 p. 17) Really???? Explain it to us then using scriptrue Paul did not need to gain approval from anyone but God, which he already had by means of his faith. In fact, I believe it was Paul who called those at the council in Jerusalem "false brethren" Gal 2:6. Why did he call them this? Because they were imposing additional teachings upon Christians! I think, but I might be wrong, those additional teachings might have been no blood...or no birthdays...or there is no hell....following a group of men....etc. Doesn't really matter the fullness of the additional teachings, what matters is that adding the "law" (whatever "law") is wrong and against God's ways... by the way, the part about birthdays and blood and hell was only for reference, it was about additional "laws" kinda like the :laws" the gb/wt puts upon its members. I also noticed how quickly you ignored my reply above about reading the Bible alone.

Watchtower Aug 15, 1981 - "They say it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone of in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such 'Bible reading,' they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom's clergy were teaching 100 years ago, and some have even returned to celebrating Christendom's festivals again, such as the Roman Saturnalia of December 25th!" So, by reading the Bible alone, a person will come to the conclusion of what? What was Christendom teaching 100 years ago? The trinity? yep. So you mean to tell me that a person cannot read/study the Bible alone or they will believe the trinity? Think about that for a moment...... So the wt says you need their publications in order to understand what God has written for us, because obviously God needs help in directing His people? How did God lose His ability to direct people? I mean He did it with Abraham and Moses, and also to people like Isaiah, Matthew, John and Paul. Was God slipping in His abilities in the 18th century? As far as your comment on holidays, I think the above wt quote also addresses this. If you read the Bible alone, without wt pubs or anything else, you will celebrate holidays. I wrote holidays on purpose because the insertion of Roman Saturnalia is a false claim. I know of no one who does such. December 25th is NOT Jesus birthday, and probably not the right time of year either, but the importance of recognizing the birth of our Lord can be done on any day (think the jw present day). Not only that but what does Colossians 2:16 say? "16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day"

I think hate is the wrong word. I think oppose is more accurate. By opposition and dialog it is almost the same thing as the jw cart. Trying to reach out and help the other see a different side of the coin then they are use to. Of course there are some who become overbearing in their quest to reach out, and thus come off as haters, but I think their intention is the same. They just let their ego get in the way of reaching out. We ALL do that at times.

Then why is it in the Bible? How is it not relevant? It does matter if the society changes their story over and over, it means they have no clue. Then for them to come back around to what the rest of Christianity believed Gog and Magog is, and have for quite some time, means they are just poking around in the dark.

If there is just a little poison in the water will you drink it?

Very nice post TTH. It really is sad when this becomes a media plug and headline story either for or against someone instead of an encouragement for people to act this way everyday. I'm sure Mattress Mack would be happy with a simple thank you instead of a parade in his honor. We should all encourage each other to act accordingly, as decent human beings, do what is right and not what is easy.

I have a question that might spur a separate thread. If the 1000 year reign is AFTER Armageddon, and then this battle takes place at the end of the 1000 years, who exactly is fighting who according to jw's? I mean, doesn't the society state that ONLY jw's will be saved after Armageddon? So if all that there is left is jw's, then who do they go to war against? Another thought, if jw's do not engage in war, then again....who is fighting here? Either it will be jw's against jw's or someone has the story wrong.

Didn't the wt say that it was a "fine" decision to such a thing? They even printed it in their mag on how it was great for those to do so in these last times. Talk about encouraging someones downfall. So why did the wt need to pick dates?

are you calling those who followed the wt legal team by not reporting the abuse, apostates? I agree. Also, on a side note........why you up vote your own posts?

I too believe the scriptures.........however, I do not believe in the gb and their assumptions of 1914/1918/1925/1975 based on their "math" from 607 or pyramid counting. It isn't so much about math, but rather what the leaders of the wt attribute their math with and demand the rnf to adhere to or face not being in harmony with the group and possible punishment. Correct me if I am wrong, but I do believe that is the basis of what Micah was getting at.

I think you are correct. The value of the blood of the sacrifice is just that, a sacrifice, a loss, a death, etc. and without that then what sacrifice is there? Like you, I believe that Jesus cut himself in His experience as a carpenter but that was not the sacrifice. While I'm sure that His blood at those times did have value over ours when we cut ourselves, it still was not the ultimate sacrifice. With this being said, what value is there in NOT taking a transfusion if no one died to obtain the blood? The only value I see is the adherence to a man made organization and the people who dedicate themselves to that organization, to glorify the organization. Who gains if no transfusion is accepted? Not the person who allowed themselves to die........they died! Not the family, not friends....they all lost. Does God gain? I think not, because His word tells us that those who ate blood are only unclean until morning (Lev 17:15). This hardly indicates a absolute. Does God place a value of ones life? Yes, and that is also in Lev 17:15 as the scripture does not state the penalty is death. Does the organization? Not when it comes to preserving life with no life lost in the process.