Shiwiii

yes, I know. I just didn't want others to assimilate those statements to me. It was just a mistake in who's name you used as being quoted. Look back and you can see where it was a quote from Melinda, but my name was used. 

No problems though, just wanted point that out. 

On 10/15/2016 at 11:58 PM, Eoin Joyce said:

Hello Dolly(s).................

Novel idea. S'pose you think this applies to Jesus as well??

 

You should be asking your elders, or GB about this, it is their teaching.

If nothing about a human survives death, then who exactly is in heaven? Are Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob there? Or is it just a copy of who they were? Maybe the true definition of clone doesn't work, but copy I would think matches what the WT teaches. 

16 hours ago, Witness said:

 

 

 

I do not take credit/responsibility for those statements. These are actually quotes from Melinda from the WT and not me. 

15 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

If you didn’t understand my post, “Witness” then I color coded it for you

How disgraceful and childish. Instead of relying on content in your message, you choose to try and belittle. 

14 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

When the apostles spread the “gospel” of Christ in many countries and planted “new” churches, am I to understand that these churches are false because you don’t view them as organized and unified

 

 

Boy, you have a lot of work cut out for you. You need to sway 1.3 billion Christians they’ve been wrong for over two thousand years. Start with the Vatican and work your way down.

 

 

They, will probably call you crazy? But give it a shot, Good luck!

So you cannot give your account of the gospel, instead you create a new topic of discussion.....nope, not going to follow you there. If you cannot have a discussion, only diversion, then I guess we are done here. 

14 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Ergo…your personal opinion.

 

 

Identifying where the word “lord” can be misconstrued, then, yes it’s appropriate to make that distention between Christ and Jehovah. But search history, it has been exhausted for the Tetragrammaton , that more and more scholars are claiming to the validity of it, and could be viewed as either Yahweh or Jehovah depending on how one wants to interpret YHWH or YHVH. But it’s certainly NOT Jesus.

My personal opinion is based on the fact that there is no ancient manuscript of the NT that contains the name Jehovah or YHWH. This is admitted by your organization, but you call it my opinion....

48 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

So, in your mind, the apostles were not referring to be united in Christ as is the message of the WTS. 

No, in my mind the apostles were pointing people to Christ and NOT an organization. The WTS points people to themselves, to come and join their org under the guise of aligning with Christ. 

50 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

JW’s just go further by passing the gospel door to door.

What exactly is your gospel?

50 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

that mistaken quote comes from apostasy websites

are you telling me it is not written like that in your publications? If you look at your own quote it states it exactly as I quoted it. That one must come to Jehovah's organization for salvation. 

53 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

The WTS draws attention to the inspired word of God

Their rewritten word of God, not the inspired one. The inspired one does not contain "Jehovah" "YHWH" in the NT. 

54 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

To Serve Jehovah, and his organization under Christ rule

Can you provide scripture that states one must serve "his organization" please? 

36 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

I don’t have the bond volume to check [p.212] if that’s where you got the information and not some apostasy site that still uses bond volumes for references.

What difference does bound vs CDROM have to do with apostasy? Is there a new teaching out now, that if you have bound volumes you are now an apostate? Do tell....

37 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

^{It’s pretty clear the society is giving out an invitation to all those that wish to be saved by the ransom sacrifice of our savior Jesus Christ, the originator of that very same invitation. No different than the apostle's message and all those that Christ commissioned to spread the word of salvation.}

very different, the apostles did not draw people to themselves, like this statement we're talking about has, but instead pointed to Jesus! So there is a big difference between the WT and the apostles. 

Just now, AllenSmith said:

Once again, I not disputing the subject matter, I disputing your interpretation of the subject matter.

by all means, please correct my thinking on this one statement made by the WT :

"Come to Jehovah's organization for salvation" - Watchtower 1981 Nov 15 p.212

I believe it means that they have claimed the title of God, as He is the only one who can save. 

No it doesn't seem right, it seems pretty dishonest really. Just write your own bible like the Mormons did if you want ti to say something else. I find it strange that JWs cannot accept that the organization changes words to suit their agenda, all with the backing of uninspired texts and ignoring the fact that even the oldest manuscripts do not include YHWH in the NT. 

My question, which answers the original question, is this: 

Why would an all powerful God not be able to preserve His words to mankind and need a small group of men to fix it for Him? Could God not take care of this on His own?

Psalms 138:2 "  I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. "

If, as this Psalm states, God magnifies His word above His name, shouldn't He have been able to keep the Bible intact and correct? Of course He can, and did. That is the simple answer. It is only men who want to rewrite it to fit their need. 

14 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

 

Wrong! you gave proof of your interpretation of what you think they were attempting to convey. That's why I stated learn the true history. That would entail you reading all the publications in full.

Allen, how can one misinterpret those statements? They are pretty plain. It seems that you do know, but choose to bury those thoughts because the society tells you to. If I have misinterpreted those statements, please explain them to me one by one. I'll list them again for your convenience:

"To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it." Watchtower 1983 Feb 15 p.12

"These overseers faithfully seek to apply instructions received from JehovahGod and Jesus Christ by means of the faithful and discreet slave and its Governing Body." Watchtower 1990 Mar 15 p.20

"Come to Jehovah's organization for salvation" - Watchtower 1981 Nov 15 p.212

Who is the one who brings salvation? Not some organization!!!!! JESUS is the answer!

The Watchtower 1975 Sep 1 p.531 asks "Where could we turn if we would leave God's organization today? There is nowhere else! 

This is a play on Simon Peter's words in John 6:68 "  Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." Not an organization, but rather Jesus! 

"But if we were to draw away from Jehovah's organization, there would be no place else to go for salvation and true joy." Watchtower 1993 Sep 15 p.22

"They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah's organization is essential to their salvation." Kingdom Ministry 1990 Nov p.1

"And while now the witness yet includes the invitation to come to Jehovah's organization for salvation, the time no doubt will come when the message takes on a harder tone, like a "great war cry."" Watchtower 1981 Nov 15 p.21

On 9/23/2016 at 9:06 PM, Anna said:

What the Praeceptor said is correct. What I said was correct.

On 9/22/2016 at 2:53 PM, Shiwiii said:

Return to whom?

On 9/22/2016 at 10:55 PM, ThePraeceptor said:

To the congregation!

On 9/23/2016 at 1:13 PM, Anna said:

If you were one of Jehovah's Witnesses you would know what I meant by come back. It's obvious it is come back to God and Christ.

These two statements by the both of you are not synonymous, and they were asked with the same question.

On 9/23/2016 at 4:09 PM, AllenSmith said:

try learning the history, but the true history,

I gave you your history and you don't want it. It come from their own publications! how can you continue to deny what they themselves wrote? 

On 9/23/2016 at 4:02 PM, Anna said:

The preaching work is a kind privilege He gives to faithful ones so they can demonstrate their love, obedience and loyalty to him. Never mind the fact that it was actually a command from Jesus, to go and make disciples. (Matthew 28:18-20)

What on earth do you mean "nevermind" ? As if that is some side note. If Jesus commands it, then it is God's will. Not some extra bonus that God gives us to do, it is commanded. 

On 9/23/2016 at 4:02 PM, Anna said:

"For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”

You do know that this is not what is written in the Bible, right? 

On 9/24/2016 at 4:45 AM, JW Insider said:

Shiwii,

So you believe that mercy and compassion is in your bowels? As you can see from the quick Bible word-study below the word "bowels" (the same bowels that spilled out from Judas) also refers to the place where our mercy and compassion comes from.

Perhaps you think it was just incorrectly worded by John when he said "whosoever . . . shutteth up his bowels, how can the love of God dwell in him?" (1 John 3:17) [The words "of compassion" are not even in the original Greek.]

I hope no one ever gets constipated (or requires a heart transplant, or artificial heart, for that matter).

 

 

No, That is exactly my point. It is within our being that these things dwell. Our minds are separate from our heart, because our mind is carnal. Our heart is our real desire, thus where the "thoughts" dwell. 

31 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

Shiwiii: I noticed that, it seems that the governing body has inserted themselves in place of Jesus.

 

 

Another personal opinion, laden with false accusations, but that’s what born again Christians commonly do. They are taught to deflect and evade from their clergy

You must not be aware of some statements made by the GB:

"To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it." Watchtower 1983 Feb 15 p.12

"These overseers faithfully seek to apply instructions received from JehovahGod and Jesus Christ by means of the faithful and discreet slave and its Governing Body." Watchtower 1990 Mar 15 p.20

"Come to Jehovah's organization for salvation" - Watchtower 1981 Nov 15 p.212

The Watchtower 1975 Sep 1 p.531 asks "Where could we turn if we would leave God's organization today? There is nowhere else! 

"But if we were to draw away from Jehovah's organization, there would be no place else to go for salvation and true joy." Watchtower 1993 Sep 15 p.22

"They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah's organization is essential to their salvation." Kingdom Ministry 1990 Nov p.1

"And while now the witness yet includes the invitation to come to Jehovah's organization for salvation, the time no doubt will come when the message takes on a harder tone, like a "great war cry."" Watchtower 1981 Nov 15 p.21

Who runs the WT? The GB, that's who. Who writes and/or approves the messages? The GB, that's who. 

4 minutes ago, Anna said:

My other sentence clarified my statement: " We want to make sure we have God's and Christ's understanding on what it means to "come" to them".

what does that have to do with it? You made the statement that Witness could not be a JW if he didn't know that is was to come to God and Christ. The Praeceptor clearly did not give the same answer as you did. So that means someone, either you or The Praeceptor, needs to get in line and speak together or else there is a division among your group. 

1 hour ago, Anna said:

It is not God's purpose to have randomly scattered people who have "come" to him and Christ but who do not associate with others who have done the same

Then why did Jesus command the disciples to "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations..." All the nations could not associate with one another and they would still certainly be scattered. 

1 hour ago, Anna said:

However, God is a God of order and there can be no order unless there is organization, especially as regards the enormous task of "preaching in all the inhabited earth", which his followers would be doing. Also, there could be no doctrinal unity without organization.

I believe this is limiting God. Does God need anything from us to do His will? Your statement makes the argument that there is.

1 hour ago, Anna said:

If you were one of Jehovah's Witnesses you would know what I meant by come back. It's obvious it is come back to God and Christ.

That is not what The Praeceptor said, do you believe that The Praeceptor not a witness? 

13 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

No. More in the sense of Jer 31:33.

So you believe that the law was not within their heart and Jesus didn't really mean what He said?

 Also, what is your take on Jesus speaking about the thoughts within their heart?  

Was this just mistaken and worded incorrectly by John? 

20 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

*** w08 1/1 p. 13 Is God’s Kingdom in Your Heart? *** Our Readers Ask Is God’s Kingdom in Your Heart? Many today believe that the answer to the above question is yes. For example, The Catholic Encyclopedia asserts: “The kingdom of God means . . . the ruling of God in our hearts.” The clergy commonly teach this idea. Does the Bible really teach that God’s Kingdom resides in human hearts? Some think that Jesus himself first promoted the idea that God’s Kingdom lies within the hearts of humans. Jesus did say: “Look! The kingdom of God is in your midst.” (Luke 17:21) Some translations here say: “The kingdom of God is within you” or even “inside you.” Are those accurate renderings of Jesus’ expression? Did he really mean that God’s Kingdom is found in human hearts? First, consider what the human heart is. When referred to in the Bible, the figurative heart means the inner person, the source of a person’s thoughts, attitudes, and feelings. The idea that something as sublime as the Kingdom of God resides within the human heart—in the way it changes and ennobles people, for example—may sound appealing, but does it stand to reason? The Bible tells us: “The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate.” (Jeremiah 17:9) Jesus himself said: “From inside, out of the heart of men, injurious reasonings issue forth: fornications, thieveries, murders, adulteries, covetings, acts of wickedness.” (Mark 7:20-22) Consider: Cannot much of the misery that we see in the world today be traced back to the sinful hearts of humans? So how could God’s perfect Kingdom come from such a source? Really, the human heart could no more produce God’s Kingdom than a thistle could produce figs.—Matthew 7:16. Second, consider the audience Jesus was addressing when he spoke the words found at Luke 17:21. The preceding verse reads: “On being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, he answered them.” (Luke 17:20) The Pharisees were Jesus’ enemies. Jesus stated that those hypocrites were not going to enter God’s Kingdom. (Matthew 23:13) Now if the Pharisees were not to enter God’s Kingdom, could the Kingdom be in their hearts? Impossible! What, then, did Jesus mean? In rendering these words of Jesus, a number of careful Bible translations use wording similar to that found in the New World Translation. Some say that the Kingdom is “among you” or “in the midst of you.” How was God’s Kingdom among those people at that time, including the Pharisees? Well, Jesus was the one whom Jehovah God appointed to be the King of the Kingdom. As the King-Designate, Jesus was right in the midst of those people. He taught about the Kingdom of God and even performed miracles, giving them a preview of what that Kingdom would accomplish. In a very real sense, then, the Kingdom was in their midst. Clearly, there is no Scriptural support for the notion that the Kingdom of God is in the hearts of humans. Rather, it is an actual government, one that will effect dramatic changes on the earth, just as the prophets foretold.—Isaiah 9:6, 7; Daniel 2:44.

interesting interpretation. I look at other scriptures that speak about the heart and I just can't fit the idea you presented into the scripture. For example why would Jesus use the phrase "in your heart" if it didn't really fit? 

Luke 5:22 " Jesus knew what they were thinking and asked, “Why are you thinking these things in your hearts?"

Surely, Jesus knew that the thinking portion of our bodies is not the heart but rather our brain. Did Jesus mean just close to the brain?

Or how about here: 

John 5:42 " but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts."

Was Jesus really saying that the love of God could be in a human heart? 

21 minutes ago, Witness said:

It's so good to see you back here, Shiwii.  

Actually, Christ is removed from the picture as the mediator between God and Jehovah's Witnesses.  Speaking the name of Jesus means nothing, when one answers to man.

Thank you, I've had a few more things on my plate than one would wish. 

I noticed that, it seems that the governing body has inserted themselves in place of Jesus. They, the gb, have taken it upon themselves to provide salvation. That is the exact example you gave with the parallels with Catholic's and their priests. It extends not only from the elders to the regular JW's but the gb is the same to the elders. It is the same hierarchy structure. 

1 hour ago, Witness said:

The Catholic Church uses a false priest and confessional, becoming mediator between man and Christ.  The Watchtower uses false priests, called a judicial committee, and the back room, becoming mediator between man and Christ.

great point!