The WTS will NOT stagnate on its understanding by NOT putting the proper revision in place.

Then why has the child abuse policy stayed the same? Not reporting to authorities on EACH AND EVERY CASE!

 I would hope, that what you learned in “first” grade would be something entirely different in “Fifth” grade.

Hogwash, each grade is built upon the previous,  not changing to something opposite 

You're probably right. Yes it is funny that they only believe that the 144k get the perfection like Jesus and the rest get perfection like Adam, but yet consider them equally perfect prior to Adam's sin.

You know this word "perfect" and the jw meaning, fits perfectly in the B.I.T.E. model under the thought control. To most everyone the word means without flaw, unless it is spoken of in context to mean otherwise. But under thought control, they can freely switch it to whatever suits the need at the time and what works best for the group. This keeps the average group member in a cocoon of sorts and only those who are in the cocoon know what the words mean to them. 

On 7/30/2016 at 1:11 PM, Eoin Joyce said:

This maybe a common dictionary definition, but is just inadequate when dealing with the biblical concept. 

This is clear, for example, when looking at Heb 2:10; Heb 5:9 relating to Jesus.

Also, in considering the application of Jesus words at Matt 5:48 and Matt 19:21.

So any argumentation using this rather narrow English definition in discussing the biblical concept is, quite simply,.....flawed.

Your first two examples are speaking of Jesus, and I think we both agree that Jesus was perfect. Perfect in the purest form, without flaw or blemish. The second two examples are applied to men, however the difference here is that we as man can never attain perfection on our own merit. Jesus was not saying that if you sell all of your things and give it to the poor you will be perfect. Not at all, what He was saying was in your heart strive to help and bless others. Also, that in which you sacrifice, which has value here on Earth, to help others is an exchange for the blessings you will receive in Heaven. Not because you gave them up, but rather your hearts desire for others. This is God's love and that was what Jesus was saying in Matt 5:48, strive to have the same love for others as God has for you. We can never make this happen on our own, because we all fall short of the glory of God. Do you really believe that Jesus was saying we could actually be perfect here and now, just as the Father is? 

On 7/30/2016 at 9:42 AM, HollyW said:

The WTS definition of perfect in this instance is to "meet God's standards physically, mentally, morally, and spiritually."

[w06 5/15 p.6] During his Thousand Year Reign, Jesus will apply the benefits of his ransom sacrifice to every obedient human. In time, all sin will thus be removed, and mankind will be lifted to human perfection. (1 John 2:2; Revelation 21:1-4) With the effects of Adam’s sin completely gone, perfect humans will meet God’s standards physically, mentally, morally, and spiritually. They will thus “come to life” in the fullest sense when they reach sinless perfection. (Revelation 20:5) How this and the Paradise earth will glorify Jehovah!  

that very well may be their position, but the fact of the matter is that perfection has no flaw.

A perfect puzzle piece fits without gap. It fits the purpose it was designed for, but in no way is it perfect. It is made of cardboard and when wet it deteriorates. I can accept the application of something being a perfect fit, but to assign perfection as a whole to Adam and Eve is wrong. They were designed to perfectly fit the environment God created for them, but they themselves were not "perfect, without flaw or blemish" or they would have never sinned. The perfection that one attains at the time of God's calling to Himself, is perfection in the absolute sense. This is not attainable while we are still here on Earth and absent from the Lord. 

2 hours ago, JWTheologian said:

Incorrect!!!!!!! Don't put words on peoples mouth, that's so deceptive!!!!!!!!!! But then again, that's you.

That stayed “TRUE” to his Fathers definition of what a perfect man should be, Without Sin?

 

Yes, Jesus achieved that goal, however as perfect humans Adam and Eve failed, even though Satan used the same method to disrupt perfection through evil.

 

So let’s not start twisting words around again. If anything, at least use the secular definition of the word.

 

"SIN"

an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.

"a sin in the eyes of God"

synonyms:immoral act, wrong, wrongdoing, act of evil/wickedness, transgression, crime, offense, misdeed,

You acknowledged and even said that Jesus was the only Perfect. 

Here is your statement,  if you happen to have forgot:

The only Perfect being by his sacrifice was killed by who, imperfect humans. 

You said it, I didn't have to put words in your mouth!

19 hours ago, JWTheologian said:

That would be the point. The only Perfect being by his sacrifice was killed by who, imperfect humans. So we had an example for excellence, until someone decided there was a flaw in that man. Was it for the GOOD of the people or for their personal gain. That’s what makes Scripture valid, and misguided philosophy not.

 

So now you agree that there has only been ONE perfect, Jesus. 

There goes the theory that Adam and Eve were perfect.

13 hours ago, JWTheologian said:

 

So your simple hypothesis, if perfection can be spotted or not is too vain. A perfect being can have spots and a spotted being can be influenced by sin.

 

Then it is not perfect. Perfection has no flaw. You cannot create a flaw within a perfect diamond, either it is there or it is not. 

You can choose to believe that something is perfect and can still not be perfect by choice, if you wish. But, in that scenario the perfection is a mirage and really didn't exist, you just chose to believe it was.

13 hours ago, JWTheologian said:

Can Satan corrupt free will? Jesus answered it by NOT being influenced by the Devil. So, that proves that MAN does have the ability NOT to be influence by evil and therefore can return to perfection, and one day will.

 Jesus became a man, but His qualities and abilities are far beyond what a normal man can do. 

If your belief that it is possible for a human to be perfect, why has there NEVER been a person who attained this? 

Lets not forget that the Greek word for perfect (G5048), which is found in the NT in Luke, John, Acts, 2 Cor, Phil, Heb, James and 1 John, NEVER appears in Revelation, where the wt has deemed the progress to perfection is being spoken of out of "new scrolls" being taught in Chapter 20. Also, if you notice that in Hebrews 10:14 we are told that Jesus, by His death and resurrection, has made perfect for all time those who are sanctified. not in a progression, but rather immediate. This sanctification is a putting aside for a purpose or calling. I am not saying that anyone is perfect right now, but the perfection comes when Jesus gives it and it is not a progression. 

40 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Means "fit for purpose"

Is that all encompassing? Seems pretty general to me. If we look at the definition from a few sources it becomes a little more clear:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/perfect?s=t

adjective

We must take into consideration the context of what the Bible is saying when this concept is being applied. While I do accept the answer you have given, I feel it is limited and does not apply itself to the context of where you place it within the Bible. Perfection is the lack of defect, flaw, sin, deceit, malice, slander, etc. Clinging to the only definition that can possibly apply to how the wt chooses to use it, does not negate the fact of what the word truly means. 

19 hours ago, JWTheologian said:

Are you suggesting that man will have become robotic? The inference will still be "freewill"

Nope, not robots at all.

My question to you to clear this up a bit would be what is perfection? 

Is perfection having an internal flaw? blemish? Or is it perfect without spot?

Thank you, I do need prayer. I think the biggest problem I have with this is the lack of remorse on her part. 

Thank you for your answer.  It will be interesting to see how it unfolds. 

Is cheating allowed if the one cheated on is not a witness? Seems that way. She hasn't told her elders and is waiting for me to file divorce papers to tell anyone she knows. Is this a tatic to hide her infidelity and place the blame on me? Doesn't really matter what I have or have not done. By the way, no physical abuse, no abuse at all. We just didn't see eye to eye like every couple on the planet from time to time. I never stopped her from going, nor did I stop our children from going with her. I'm really thinking this is normal behavior for jws. I mean her mom did the same as well as her older sister. 

I've forgiven her and am not mad at her any longer. It was her choice, not mine. She chose to do this to our family. I have talked to her and explained this to her already. There is no reconciliation possible. I'm just flabbergasted that she would throw her family away like this.  

Will she be disfellowshiped? 

6 minutes ago, JWTheologian said:

I didn't choose the label, the WT did. 1 Corinthians 6:9 Context: Members of Christ

 

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to nor perform homosexual acts,

 

The WTS is an organization just like any other church. Be it Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical, etc. They all publish their own understanding. However, the WTS publishes its understanding directly from scripture.

 

I didn't apply the conditions of these people, the WT did. Luke 23:43English Standard Version (ESV)43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

 

I didn't say who would make it and who wouldn't, the WT did.  Revelation 2:7 English Standard Version (ESV)7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

 

So your anticlerical question. The WTS didn’t God’s Word did. Learn scripture.

 

What??? Didn't you just get through telling me that I was the one who applied these labels? 

52 minutes ago, JWTheologian said:

You want to continue to put a label.

now you want to say it was God? 

Why don't you read what you wrote a few posts back and get back to me. You need to clarify where you are coming from if I am going to  continue a discussion. 

4 minutes ago, JWTheologian said:

The WTS is a mere instrument, as was with the Apostles to their converts. You continue to label in order to reject, and out of spike. If that were the case, then Christendom have that label as well. So you are contradicting yourself.

The instrument is broken, all of them!!!! 

That is why we are to follow Jesus and not ANY so called organization. I say so called because those in each organization do not and cannot follow men, because men change their ideas to suit their needs. 

1 minute ago, JWTheologian said:

You want to continue to put a label. There will be no name branding. They will simply be God’s Children. If after the 1000-year reign, people presume to give themselves labels? It will have come out from God’s Children, God’s Creation. What label was there with Adam and Eve?

I didn't choose the label, the WT did.

I didn't apply the conditions of these people, the WT did.

I didn't say who would make it and who wouldn't, the WT did. 

Read your Revelation book, Aid to bible understanding, reasoning from the scriptures, etc. Its all there where the WT has made these claims, I am just asking you about them, and how YOU align that with the Bible. Obviously you are not in agreement with the WT on this one, so tell me what you do believe. 

4 minutes ago, JWTheologian said:

incorrect, the WTS teaches JW's have been taking the lead to obey God's Laws. After the 1000 reign, they will be known as God's Children, a perfect creation finally.

Then how can some of them side with Satan if they are perfect? 

2 minutes ago, JWTheologian said:

During that time frame, everyone will have come to be in harmony with the teaching of Christ. Those that don’t adhere after due to temptation as in the Garden of Eden will be dealt with by God the Father, and Christ the King. They will NOT be afforded a second chance as did Adam and Eve.

Revelation 21:8 Context: A new heaven and new earth

8But to the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death.”

but the point is that they are JW's who have gained perfection, or so the society says. The Bible speaks of those who align with Satan after the 1000 year reign, and according to WT theology they have to be JW's and they have to be perfect. 

JWT, 

It is true that the society believes that only JW's will survive Armageddon. So then only JW's will be there at the end of the 1000 year reign. If only JW's are there after 1000 years, then they HAVE to be the ones who, after being made perfect, would align themselves with Satan by not submitting to Christ. Thus be on the opposite side of God and aligned with Satan, and ready for war against the saints.  

3 hours ago, JWTheologian said:

 

The takeaway is, circumstance of the people. The battle will be once again between ideology, and those submitting themselves to false teachings will be eliminated by God and Christ.

 

You can also add false religion. Praying to BAAL, instead of JEHOVAH

Tell me this then, those who do not submit themselves to Christ at the end of the thousand year reign,  did they gain to perfection as those who did submit?

49 minutes ago, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

There are a number of times that the Bible shows that Jehovah "regretted" and subsequently changed his mind about some action. One example is the case of Jonah and the Ninevites. God first intended to destroy them. But when they showed repentance he was willing to change his view of the Ninevites. Another example is that of the Judges. When the people would drift into apostasy, God's anger would blaze against them. Judges 2: 18 has the phrase "moved with pity". The footnote reads "felt regret". To regret is to no longer think the same way about a matter. In other words, to change one's mind. Today, when Jehovah deals with us individually he does something similar. When we show repentance for some sin we have committed he is willing to forgive based on the value of Jesus' life. Otherwise none of us could stand.

My point was that God made the corrections to men, not men making corrections to men. When you have a group that changes from left to right and back to left again, then you must know that this did not come from God. Could God use this left right left to His advantage? sure, He uses people and circumstances to His advantage all the time, to work out His will. When a group claims to speak for God and these changes become apparent, it is not that hard to see God is not using this group as His mouthpiece. 

You know the saying that the WT uses, the one about tacking into the wind as a sailboat does? A few things came to mind about that. One, if this is describing the mode of operation of the WT how does this compare to say John the Baptist?  John made the pathway before God straight (Isa 40:3/Matt 3:3/John 1:23/Mark 1:3/Luke 3:4). John preached one thing, repentance,  and this didn't change. He did not say "repent" one day and then the next "you don't need to repent yet". The second point that came to mind was how if by tacking, a sailboat gains distance traveled, the sailboat also has a course set out and a destination. What ground/distance is gained in a flip flop of doctrines? It is reversing to a previous point, not advancing. What destination is there in mind when a complete reversal takes place?

1 hour ago, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

This is a forum, it is a place where people should feel free to express their views. I agree, you can keep your viewpoint, just as I. I haven't come into this trying to convert anyone. I find it a great source of information and resources, though some may disagree. I think, there's a difference between having an opinion and a personal attack. But if that should ever happen we all have the choice to report any offending posts to let the Mods deal with. I find that on other forums, Bible discussions descend into attacking each other easily. It'd be great if we could remain civil.

I completely agree with this, we are here to bounce opinions and ideas off of each other in a civil manner. 

1 hour ago, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

Saying that you are simply going off the Bible is a little bit like saying the other person is wrong lol. The problem with saying that is that if the other person also says they are going off the Bible then the two must inherently be in agreement, one mind and one thought. We are not in agreement on all matters. The issue really is, what have each person "missed"? With the knowledge that you have of the Bible, what is it that you have missed that I have pointed out? Alternatively, with the information that I may have, what have I missed? For example, if I have not read the whole Bible maybe I missed a part that had something different to say on a matter I had come to understand one way. I have shown you two or three instances that you may not have thought of. Judges, Jonah and forgiveness of sins today. If you are familiar with scripture there should be no need to quote or cite verses, you would recognize where I have quoted scripture.

The difference between us both sticking with the Bible and not being in agreement, it that of a bias we have within ourselves. I am content in using the Bible alone and allowing it to support itself. Are you? 

I agree that neither of us can understand everything there is, and we will miss things along the way, but our willingness to bring forth our ideas for criticism is what helps us remove our bias. Without an independent party (others on this forum and elsewhere) giving us what they see in both our view as well as their view, then we have a group who might as well believe the sky is falling. 

40 minutes ago, JWTheologian said:

I don’t know if your simply unaware how to read scripture, or don’t have an understanding of it. With your own cited scripture, at what point does it state, Brother will go against Brother, if JUDGEMENT will come from CHRIST.

Another simple anecdotal, where do you keep coming up with Jw’s at the end of the 1000-year reign. After Armageddon, WE will have become God’s People, and after we return to a state that GOD intended his creation to be, there will be no separatism assumed.

So your deception of Brother against Brother will NOT be governed by man, but judged through Christ. So the WTS is NOT implying what you are thinking of. Christ will judge US as individuals, not man as a nation. That’s why it’s important to understand scripture.

I learned that at age 5. Isaiah 2:4

4 And He will judge between the nations, and will render decisions for many peoples; And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, and never again will they learn war.

So who does Satan gather together for war at the end of the 1000 year reign if all that are left are perfect?

12 minutes ago, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

Thanks for your opinion, but I disagree with you thoroughly. This is not about being right, it's about maintaining the peace and dignity of all concerned. If you're only interested in arguing you have missed Paul's words on not getting into foolish disputes and arguments about words.

So why don't you tell me who made those "changes"? I said God did and not men. I don't think I said anything about being right. The Bible tells us that God corrected the people. The Bible doesn't say that God changed His mind, but rather opened the mind of people. 

As far as my understanding of Paul, that is between me and God. You can have your opinion about me and what I believe, its ok. I am open to your criticisms and will listen, but that doesn't mean I will change to your views on things. I have the freedom in Christ to do so. If my questions bother you, then by all means let me know. I can rephrase them for clarity. I am simply going off the Bible, and if we both agree that the Bible is the Word of God, then there should be no problem. 

1 hour ago, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.

The agreement to disagree is a disgraceful defeat if it means surrendering the hope of agreement through deeper understanding. 

1 hour ago, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

The next thread of thinking, is to take you through history from Adam to present day showing you all the adjustments that took place leading down to Jesus then on to our day. I've touched on some of those things. But personally, it is so clear to me that adjustments in thinking have been happening since the beginning it is irrefutable, but maybe you don't believe the taking away of the kingdom from the Jews and to spiritual Israel was a significant adjustment. Did the apostles complain? Saying "this is not what I was baptized into."
 Did they look for excuses to disregard every explanation given or did they accept each adjustment? When they met with the older men of Jerusalem and the result was Acts 15: 28, 29, then it was conveyed to the existing congregations, do you think that was from men or God? I'm interested in your answer to that.

It was not changes it was clarification to the people of what was meant. Who was it that made these "changes"? Was it a group of men or was it God? The answer is clear, it was God who corrected the people. There was no group of men changing things back and forth claiming to speak for God.