Shiwiii
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Posts posted by Shiwiii
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1 hour ago, JWTheologian said:
Yes, its very telling as a pretender of the truth as you hasn't a clue, of what goes on in the background in the WT Society, and how many claims are errors of not understanding the laws that govern spirituality and social justice. As for the Status Bar you mark, well to each its own. The fact that you hate your post being challenged speaks volumes of all the falsehoods you have posted so far.
One of Your Own popes, Geoffrey Jackson, has admitted that there have been molesters within the organization that have not been turned over to authorities. This isn't behind the scenes, but rather under oath in a court of law, Caesars law, to which the Bible tells us we must obey.
Maybe you should watch the Australian royal commission and see for yourself. Or you can research the San Diego superior court case against Mr Campos.
I'm not afraid to have my posts challenged, in fact I would hope each and every one of them are. Then we have discussion. You need to come to the table with proof of your claims and I will do the same. I've given you my proof, please provide yours.
- SonOfcaleb, Witness and HollyW
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5 hours ago, JWTheologian said:
No really, Sensationalism always makes the News, especially if its towards Jehovah’s Witnesses. Now there are many shysters out in the world trying to cash in on this Child Abuse, and many ex-witnesses making claim. God will handle it all appropriately without the intervention of clueless people attempting to add to this sensationalism.
This Statement By You Is Very telling. You have no idea of the facts, only what the wt has told you. For you to call these cases a money grab and that they are "shysters", when you know nothing of the abuse. The wt has admitted to the fact that these were substantiated claims and that they also have the proof and in some cases confessions. But you can't accept this. So you put your fingers in your ears and scream la la la la I can't hear you.
Also by liking your own posts to puff up your "status" is par for the course with the wt too.
- SonOfcaleb, HollyW, Ann O'Maly and 1 other
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34 minutes ago, JWTheologian said:
Just like in anything, sensationalized by the media. Were these people actual JW’s? Some stipulate they were recent converted group of Witnesses that became overzealous and acted independently of The Watchtower Christian Teachings. However, even an uneducated witness wouldn’t care one way or the other to ancient Pagan shrines.
The only good answer would be, a group of Catholic sympathizers pretending to be Jehovah’s Witnesses orchestrated that defilement to tarnish the Watchtower in order to STOP an unprecedented convert from Catholic to Witnesses. Jehovah’s Witnesses are fully aware the attack the POPE has imposed on the Watchtower, and has committed its Bishops to stop the converts at all cost.
So if you’re going to read things about the Watchtower only to complain, and criticize it? Then review and read the fine print of other religions that Satan is using to attack the Watchtower. For the Watchtower, there is nothing new with religious attacks other than since the 80’s with the introduction of the internet. Scrupulous people tend to exaggerate a problem such as child abuse, that ALL religions are guilty of.
People seem to view a bad apple as a bad barrel. Sensationalist journalist will always over play facts. Remember, LATIN AMERICA is famous for that.
Aren't you reading a little too far into this and creating a persecution complex for the society? I for one do not believe this to be true of jws in general, but to fabricate a spin is just like the wt to do, instead of taking the "news" at face value.
Now the second half is something completely different. The refusal to turn over documents that they had already turned over is appalling, unless they have something to hide. The details of the first turn over, being redacted beyond recognition is hiding something. If they stand for truth and what Jesus stood for, then they should have no problem.
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1 hour ago, LloydSt said:
2. Shwiii wrote: "So you would accept that the org is right even though you know that they are not. That is called Cognitive dissonance. "
Again an attempt to put words in my mouth, a common tactic called a "straw man" argument where one takes issue with something that is easy to contend with, but which is quite different from the original discussion.
But the answer is that if I thought I might have happened onto something that seemed more correct than what we had thought, I hopefully would just keep my big mouth shut and wait on Jehovah. How would I really know that I was correct about a matter anyway?
Your answer here is exactly what I was saying:
Lloyd St.- I would hope that the elders would make that plain to me and I would pray that I would have the humility to accept that counsel.
It is not a "straw man", it is what you said, unless you choose to clarify further. Here you stated that if you knew better, you would still seek the elders to tell you what you really are supposed to believe. You said you would even pray that you would accept it.
1 hour ago, LloydSt said:2. Shwiii wrote: "So you would accept that the org is right even though you know that they are not. That is called Cognitive dissonance. "
Again an attempt to put words in my mouth, a common tactic called a "straw man" argument where one takes issue with something that is easy to contend with, but which is quite different from the original discussion.
But the answer is that if I thought I might have happened onto something that seemed more correct than what we had thought, I hopefully would just keep my big mouth shut and wait on Jehovah. How would I really know that I was correct about a matter anyway?
The same quote of yours I quoted in the response of #1. above is the words out of your "mouth" that supports my statement.
Why in the world would you want to keep your mouth shut? Is your opinion not worth anything? Of course it is, and the only way "progression" happens is by people questioning things.
1 hour ago, LloydSt said:3. "Who according to the Bible is to teach us all things? Who is to be called "teacher"? Who directs us? The answer to all of these is most definitely not an organization."
So is it you? You're the one that has presumed to know more than the organization right? Further, who did Jesus tell, 3 times, to feed my little sheep? Who made the decision about circumcision that was distributed to the congregations?
As I have already said, it is a group effort and by definition that involves organization. They try their best to understand the Great Teacher and what is said in the scriptures and to use that understanding to build up those who want to be Jehovah's servants. Try to grasp that.
No, I am no teacher of the Bible. I am only a person who reads it and tries to apply it to my life. I am one to question things when they claim to be of the Bible and are not. I do know quite a lot about the organization, but in no way do I know everything. You never did answer my questions, but I'll answer them for you. The Holy Spirit is to teach us of all things (John 14:26), The Christ is to be called "teacher" (Matthew 23:1-10), God directs us (Psalms 48:14). Actually Jesus only said to Peter once to feed His sheep, He asked him 3 times if he loved Him. Peter and Paul both said that circumcision was of no real value.
Trying your best is admirable, forcing others to obey you and your belief without question is not. Building up people who want to serve God is great, it is something we all should do, but totalitarianism is the exact opposite of building up.
1 hour ago, LloydSt said:4. Shiwiii said, "So your hope is in the elders to tell you what to do and what not to do. This is not the "main plot" or theme of the Bible."
Again, I never said that. Just another straw man argument that Shiwiii relies on quite heavily.
What I hoped that the elders would do in a case where I broke from the unity of Jehovah's people is to point out that I was embarking, like Eve did, on a course of independence. And yes, choosing independence, as Eve did, over submission to Jehovah IS the main plot!
I understand you believe that the organization is Jehovah's organization, and submission to the org is the same as submission to God. However there is no proof of this tie between the two. Enough said on this one.
1 hour ago, LloydSt said:5. Shiwiii wrote: >Lloyd: "I would hope that just because I hit on a point or points that were ultimately correct that I wouldn't feel superior to others or try and push ahead." Shiwiii: "No one said anything about feeling superior to others or tooting your own horn."
Dude, YOU asked me, and I quote, "So tell me this, if YOU or someone understood a scripture to mean something and it was in disagreement with the WT. YOU were reproved for this because it went against the org, and later it became that YOU were right, what would that say to You?" (caps mine)
See the words, "What would that say to YOU?" You are asking me to come at this as if I was the one with the problem, not you. And if I was embracing beliefs that would break unity with Jehovah's people, i would feel like I was being superior and tooting my own horn, at least in my mind.
Yes, I see your point, it is what you would feel. I did ask how you would feel. I was being short sighted in thinking that one would not become proud and boastful in the discovery of truth before the org did. I was thinking more along the lines of how one would deal with the knowledge they attained and still support the org's view. It never crossed my mind that a person would gain a large ego over it.
1 hour ago, LloydSt said:6. Shiwiii said: "This is the thinking that has been ingrained in followers to not think for themselves, or else they are being proud or boosting their own ego. This keeps people toeing the company line and turning in those who think differently.'
Wow. You really have no idea how Jehovah's people think, do you? Dude, we've studied, sometimes for years and pondered deeply over just exactly what we are doing, thinking for ourselves, and coming to the conclusion that this is the way. What you call "toeing the company line" is in reality a purposeful decision to remain loyal to an organization that obeys Jesus command to preach and teach the good news worldwide and has done so in over more than 700 languages with more to come, in some cases risking imprisonment or even death, and in almost all cases being made fun of, or how did Paul put it? Ah yes, "we have become as the refuse of the world, the offscouring of all things."
Jehovah's people? Who gets to draw the lines of who is and who isn't? Anyway, back on track. When you say "we've" do you mean you helped create the doctrines to which you now follow, or do you mean "we" as a collective org?
1 hour ago, LloydSt said:a purposeful decision to remain loyal to an organization
while I know I have taken just a portion of your statement here, it is still within context.
The organization prides itself on the persecution that it gets as proof, the problem is that it is usually self inflicted. Take for example the Australian Royal Comission, Candice Conti, San Diego Superior Court. The most recent is the San Diego one. The org is being held in contempt of court and sanctioned $4000 a day, yes a day for failing to provide unaltered documents in which they had previously had provided altered beyond legibility.
2 hours ago, LloydSt said:Instead, having received this vastly superior knowledge, we try and show gratitude and deep appreciation. If one receives a beautiful work of art, is it wiser to condemn that art because there is a minor flaw somewhere, or would it be wiser to express gratitude that you even were able to own such a masterpiece?
This vastly superior knowledge is changing on a regular basis. What kind of trust can you put into something that is going to change next week/month/year?
Would you drink a glass of water if it had just a little poison in it?
2 hours ago, LloydSt said:Fact is, you know the drill, and it seems that you have made your choice. But you have precious little time to become humble, and pray that Jehovah allow you to return. Everyone would think most highly of you if you did so. But I'm gonna guess that you will remain stubborn, remain independent, and continue to choose Eve's way. Big mistake. Big.
It matters not what everyone thinks of me, what matters is what God thinks of me.
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3 minutes ago, HollyW said:
You're right that in that if it actually did happen, he would believe it, but he was saying the opposite because in context he was paraphrasing what I had said:
I believe he was saying that what I have in bold there is foolish.
gotcha
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3 minutes ago, HollyW said:
I don't think Lloyd meant he would change his belief about the Trinity, but quite the opposite, if I read his post correctly.
But he did say he would believe it:
"In other words, if the Watchtower suddenly published an article that said that the Trinity doctrine was correct, then I'd believe that, which is foolishness.....on several levels "
This demonstrates the power the WT has over his beliefs. He is willing to accept whatever he is told "All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not." - wt Nov 2013
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9 minutes ago, John Houston said:
We we do good to follow after this way, even if we do not understand. Did not Peter do so? The way of everlasting life is here, not anywhere else. Life was onboard the arc, even if the person did not like Noah, he could have been save just by being onboard the ark. That is what we tell people today. Read your Bible for yourself, learn and come be among people of like faith and understanding. All the stumbling that happened in the past, is painful. But it harms that person and any who listens. Jehovah saw all what happened. Any wrongs will be made right. Any who died, will be raised. That is the beauty of this. We forget to see it fro Jehovah's viewpoint, which is what he is telling us to do. We are fighting, arguing among ourselves with all these posts, but in the end Jehovah as all the answers. If Sodom will come back, be there to see. Those you thought done wrong by this organization, be there to see Jehovah happily give them life again. That is what scripture tells us. Be there to see all the promises Jehovah holds out. Love we should have, not this arguing, the hate. That will not be there and any who foster such feelings will neither. Agape, my friends.
This is why an organization is not needed. This is why Jesus rebuked the religious leaders of His day. Groups who lord over the masses instill rules that were never supposed to be there. It is our job to help those who are unaware of God's grace and freedom. God does not reside in a building nor in a organization, but rather in the hearts of those who receive Him.
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18 hours ago, LloydSt said:
It would tell me that I lacked patience and was unwilling to wait on the organization Jehovah is using, and furthermore, thought more of myself and my own abilities than the organization that made so many things clear and published those things worldwide in over 700 languages as per Jesus' command. And that I was quite happy relying on my own understanding rather than taking the advice at Proverbs 3:5 to NOT rely on my own understanding. It would tell me than I had some serious Eve-like tendencies to do what I imagined was best.
So you would accept that the org is right even though you know that they are not. That is called Cognitive dissonance.
Who according to the Bible is to teach us all things? Who is to be called "teacher"? Who directs us? The answer to all of these is most definitely not an organization.
18 hours ago, LloydSt said:and I would hope that the elders would make that plain to me and I would pray that I would have the humility to accept that counsel.
So your hope is in the elders to tell you what to do and what not to do. This is not the "main plot" or theme of the Bible.
18 hours ago, LloydSt said:I would hope that just because I hit on a point or points that were ultimately correct that I wouldn't feel superior to others or try and push ahead.
No one said anything about feeling superior to others or tooting your own horn.
18 hours ago, LloydSt said:And so I would make a promise to myself that I would never again press my own ideas onto others, flagrantly trusting in myself. I would realize that I might get something right this time, but that might not be true the next time. I would hope that I would be humble and not let my pride force me to try and justify myself.
This statement is a conditioned one in assuming that someone would puff themselves up on being correct, none of which was said. This is the thinking that has been ingrained in followers to not think for themselves, or else they are being proud or boosting their own ego. This keeps people toeing the company line and turning in those who think differently.
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27 minutes ago, LloydSt said:
Why are you so adverse to the logical progression of Biblical knowledge, the steadily growing light of progress and understanding? Fear of not getting it exactly right could easily be the killer of progress, and certainly much worse than remaining stagnant because one might feel obligated to stick to what was originally presented. We search for truth. We grope for truth. We pray for truth. But that doesn't mean we always get it perfectly correct the first time. Sometimes it's not the right time as in when Jesus withheld info from the disciples because at a certain point of time they were unable to bear it. But progress comes in time, if one doesn't allow themselves to be stumbled, and if they remain loyal to Jehovah, whose organization feeds Jesus' sheep as they were instructed to do....now in over 700 languages and throughout the earth, as per Jesus commands. That fact alone should be enough to cause a person to examine themselves to see where they may have erred, as opposed to trying to blame someone else.
So tell me this, if you or someone understood a scripture to mean something and it was in disagreement with the WT. You were reproved for this because it went against the org, and later it became that you were right, what would that say to you? You were forced to believe the WT instead of what you knew to be correct. Wouldn't this be the same as those folks who died without a organ transplant? Since it has changed, is the blood on the hands of the WT over these people? You are required to adhere to every teaching they tell you, without question and without harboring your own personal thoughts on the matter, right? How does that make any sense? I mean that's what those people did who died without an organ transplant.
a side note, the issue may be a small one but still addresses my point:
Are the people of Sodom and Gomorrah going to be resurrected?
yes
no
yes
no
yes
no
these are the answers given to the witnesses over the years. Is this progression? Is this light getting brighter? or is this a who knows we'll just fly by the seat of our pants because all of the witnesses HAVE to believe what we tell them?
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15 hours ago, lentaylor71 said:
We are all imperfect that also includes the governing body util
then why do they expect you to obey THEM perfectly?
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9 hours ago, Mozzie said:
They are “judged out of those things written in the scrolls” that will be opened then. This could not mean the record of their past lives nor a set of rules that judges them on the basis of their past lives. For since “the wages sin pays is death,” these by their death have received the wages of their sin in the past.
If you paid for your own sins by your death, then Jesus died for nothing. This is what you are saying? Context of Romans 6:7 is that the dead can no longer sin, they are free from acting in sin, not that they have been acquitted. Just read verse 6 and see if you yourself have been crucified? Also, Daniel 12:2 opposes your view, rather the WT view, of not being judged based upon what you do now but what you do in your "second chance". verse 2 clearly states that once awakened/resurrected it is time for judgement, not time for trying again and then judgement.
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11 hours ago, HollyW said:
You're probably thinking of one of the questions asked just before being baptized: "Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization?"
I wonder if maybe this is the reason they believe they are required to change their beliefs, this association their baptism identifies them as having with the WTS? That would make sense, wouldn't it, that having been baptized into that relationship, they would expect to continue adapting their beliefs about what the Bible teaches based on what the WTS tells them it teaches, even if it cancels out what they believed when they were baptized.
well, That Is What I Was Thinking
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6 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:
Interesting question.
Baptism is a symbol of dedication to Jehovah, the Sovereign Lord of the Universe. It isn't dedication to a teaching but to a person. (some might want to argue that the forgoing statement is a teaching of course, but I am not going to get into a "who created God?" loop).
So if I am dedicated to Jehovah, then I believe that no lasting harm can come to me if I fulfil the terms of that dedication. I am quite happy to comply with "teachings" that change from what I learned prior to dedication simply because I did not dedicate myself to a body of instructions. It's a bit like what Paul described at 1Cor.9:17.
Doesn't The Baptism Questions Require You To Dedicate Yourself To The Organization?
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8 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:
What I was glad to see is that Holly and Shiwii have the ability to research the online research to get opinions from the Watchtower but I don't think they are getting the correct understanding still from what they are quoting.
Melinda, these things we research are from your organization, and not from outside sources. You are correct in this, however we bring these things up so that you and others can research them too. If there is another understanding, other than what we observe, by all means provide the information or link to clarify. You see, we are taking what the wt says and comparing it to scripture if it fits great but if not our question is why?
I took the liberty to include Holly in my comment, and if I misrepresent her I expect her to correct me.
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2 hours ago, HollyW said:
It might be because of this: http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2001563
8. What does attaining “oneness” in the faith and accurate knowledge require?
8 First, since “oneness” is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and “the faithful and discreet slave.” By regularly taking in the spiritual food provided “at the proper time”—through Christian publications, meetings, assemblies, and conventions—we can be sure that we maintain “oneness” with fellow Christians in faith and knowledge.—Matthew 24:45.and again, doctrines of MEN instead of from God.
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What is the point of being on a forum if there is no personal opinion to present? I mean to regurgitate text from any source, without personal input, does nothing to foster a discussion. Isn't that what a forum is about? To foster discussion?
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1 hour ago, JAMMY said:
at what point does a person stop allowing men to govern their lives as if these men are God Himself? Take a look at the 1000's of rules applied to the Jews by the pharisees about the Sabbath. What did Jesus say about this?
Mark 7:5 And the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, “Why do your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled hands?” 6 And he said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written,
“‘This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
7 in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ -
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1 hour ago, HollyW said:
Here's those "strange thoughts" from the WT Reasoning book:
Also see the article in the 1/1/2011 wt: http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011006
Isn't that putting limitations on God?
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28 minutes ago, Queen Esther said:
Thats not true ! Strange thoughts you have.... End of discuss for me !
You're the one who said God didn't know Adam would sin. I just tried to clarify YOUR statement
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13 hours ago, Queen Esther said:
JEHOVAH NEVER KNEW THAT ADAM WOULD SIN.... !!!!
SO HE WAS MAKING THE FAST SCRIPTURE 1. MOSE 3..15 !!!!
NOT MORE TO SAY TO THAT..... ;-(
So you deny that God knows everything. Interesting
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4 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:
Adam was not imperfect and subject to sin like us. He was perfect when God gave him that commandment. Disobedience would have been willful, not a mistake, or a case of temporary weakness. Therefore these scriptures would have applied including the sentence of death in Genesis 2:16. That death would have been everlasting - the second death.
How could Adam have been perfect if God knew he would sin? He wasnt perfect. Nowhere does scripture call Adam perfect, only good (Gen 1:31). The Father did know because He had Jesus be the sacrifice from before the world began.
2 Timothy 1:9 "who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
How Should We View This
in Topics
Posted
Here, let me refresh your memory and provide the transcript of the opening questions Mr. Jackson was asked:
6 Q. Do you recognise, Mr Jackson ‐ and in asking this
7 question, let me make it clear, I'm not suggesting it is
8 peculiar to the Jehovah's Witness organisation, there are
9 many, many organisations in this position ‐ but do you
10 accept that the Jehovah's Witness organisation has
11 a problem with child abuse amongst its members?
12 A. I accept that child abuse is a problem right
13 throughout the community and it's something that we've had
14 to deal with as well.
15
16 Q. Do you accept that the manner in which your
17 organisation has dealt with allegations of child sexual
18 abuse has also presented problems?
19 A. There have been changes in policies over the last 20
20 or 30 years, where we've tried to address some of those
21 problem areas, and by the fact that they have changed the
22 policy would indicate that the original policies weren't
23 perfect.
24
25 Q. And you accept, of course, that your organisation,
26 including people in positions of responsibility, like
27 elders, is not immune from the problem of child sexual
28 abuse?
29 A. That appears to be the case.
By mentioning "that appears to be the case" shows Mr. Jackson's acceptance that there is in fact abuse at the hands of JW's in authority. The whole reason why the ARC had this inquiry was because the WT did not report to police. So acknowledgement that this is the case, and acknowledgement of the purpose of the hearing supports my claim.
Actually the Campos case has the WT in Contempt of court and is being fined $4000 a day for failure to hand over documents.
" A San Diego Superior Court judge has ordered the Church of Jehovah's Witnesses, also known as the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, to pay $4000 a day for every day that it fails to produce documents requested... "
" ... judge Richard Strauss admonished the church for willfully ignoring a court order to produce all documents associated with a 1997 Body of Elders letter that church leaders sent to parishes around the world in a quest to learn about sexual abuse of children by church leaders. "
If this were a clerical error, then why have they not produced the documents yet? They are spending YOUR WWW donations daily to keep their records out of court!