Shiwiii

Janice, do you not see how difficult it is to provide evidence that the name jehovah was in the NT, even the source you quote says it's not there, but rather "thinks" it was there  (George Howard).

It's just not there, and when a quote is in the NT, it is attributed to Jesus. Why do you think that is there? Your leaders have inserted the name jehovah in certain places where it fits their beliefs and not where it doesn't. 

It IS in the Septuagint,  no doubt about that. Just remember that the Septuagint is the OT and not the NT

Again, all your references are about the Septuagint, which is the OT not the NT. So until you can produce evidence that supports your theory of the new being in the NT your argument is a strawman.

6 hours ago, Manuel Boyet Enicola said:

Did you opened the link?  That was the proof!

Anyway, to make it convenient for you, here it is again, just click on it:  http://www.eliyah.com/lxx.html 

 

It seems as though you assume that the Septuagint and the NT are the same. They are not. The Septuagint is the OT written in Greek. Now one has to ask themselves when and why the Septuagint was written.  It was written so that the new Greek Christians could read the OT. 

Your link only proves that the Septuagint contained the tetragramatton.  I'm not saying it doesnt, but what I'm saying is the oldest NT manuscripts do not contain "jehovah".

Good try, but you'll have to do better than that. 

40 minutes ago, Joy said:

Are you disfellowshipped or brother? I jave read some of your posts and they seem to be very negative towards witnesses. I don't know why they allow you to post.

Dont bother to reply to me, I will not frpm now on read your posts.

Then why even comment? To satisfy yourself?

3 minutes ago, Manuel Boyet Enicola said:

NWT did not "add" the name Jehovah in the NT.  Other translators did it decades before.  NWT simply followed the practice. 

So the question is:  Did Jehovah really appeared in the NT text? The probable answer is yes, because the apostles quoted freely from the Hebrew bible or its Greek equivalent, the Septuagint.  And old extant copies of the Septuagint contain the tetragramatton in Hebrew letters amid the Greek text.  http://www.eliyah.com/lxx.html 

What proof is there of this statement of yours? All of the early manuscripts do not contain the name jehovah. None. 

A quotation of the Greek septuigent still does not contain "jehovah". When it is quoted of Jesus, the nwt omits this and adds "lord" when applied to Him. 

Put you proof out here so we can discuss it.

3 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

You are all at it again! Acts 23:7. Let me know when somebody wins!

I don't think you even know the context of the verse you seem to be quoting. Start a new post and we'll discuss it.

2 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Man. We are on different planets!!

I quite agree.

Kurt- the declaration of fact was only part of the point I was trying to convey. It was the combination of that and the letter to Hitler stating their support for the Nazi regime. 

Eoin- so if they deny it now it goes away? lol This article is fluff to escape the reality of their intent. Also notice in the article it addresses the declaration mainly and not the letter to Hitler. Producing an article stating basically that it is all lies is nothing new to the wt, just look at the article about the lies in the media after the Australian Royal Commission came out.

3 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Jehovah's Witnesses understanding of this John 1:1 is in harmony with the authority of the inspirer of the Holy Scriptures and Jehovah God Himself. That is because their understanding of the text is in harmonizes with the whole Bible teaching about Jesus, God's Son. There are many others who agree with this understanding and rehashing their arguments here is unnecessary.

If this were the case, then it would have been passed down by not just the apostles but also their successors. Research Irenaeus of Lyons,Ignatius of Antioch or Polycarp for example. 

4 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

As for Greber's alleged source of  "inspiration", this is of no consequence. Even if his translation of the scripture was demon-inspired, the precedent of demon-inspired utterances AGREEING with the truth was set long before anyway, compare Acts 16:16-17 in Greber's translation (rendered in English)

So you are ok with agreeing with a demon? yikes! 

4 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

This side issue in no way discounts that the Greek scriptures in quoting the text of Joel 2:32 should contain the Divine name Jehovah.

The quote of Joel was applied to Jesus. That is the whole point of it being quoted in the first place. 

2 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Do you mean like Moses added it in in Genesis? Or different?

 

IN this discussion when asked if Moses inserted the name Jehovah into the book of Genesis you said:

Shiwii: 

Posted 14 May

Under inspiration,  Moses wrote. When he wrote exodus, he said that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did not know God's name. God told Moses this directly. 

It is my belief that no one before Moses knew God's name, based on Exodus. So to answer you plainly, yes

I am glad you quoted it properly. The first two words in my statement distinguish Moses from the wt translator(s). Unless you believe that they were inspired. They quoted Johannes Greber as their source for their John 1:1. Was he inspired? sure was, but it was not inspiration from God. Look it up if you don't believe me. Self proclaimed spiritualist as was his wife.  So maybe you ARE thinking that the wt translator(s) are inspired, possibly like Mr Greber was???

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Greber

http://www.communicationwithgod.info/page1

54 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Do you mean like Moses added it in in Genesis? Or different?

 

IN this discussion when asked if Moses inserted the name Jehovah into the book of Genesis you said:

Shiwii: 

Posted 14 May

Under inspiration,  Moses wrote. When he wrote exodus, he said that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did not know God's name. God told Moses this directly. 

It is my belief that no one before Moses knew God's name, based on Exodus. So to answer you plainly, yes

No I mean a man or men who was/ were NOT inspired! 

11 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Probably because "Concerning that day and hour nobody knows" Matt.24:36.

Then the wt should not have made the predictions if they didn't know. This isn't what happened though is it? 

The name Jehovah is no where to be found in the Greek scriptures. It is added by men into the NT where it never was.

The idea that God cannot preserve His own name in His word without the help of man is absurd.  This limits God and elevates man. 

You should also include the letters that the watchtower sent to Hitler. Examine them closely and you will see Rutherford's intention to get in with the Nazi's instead of distancing themselves from them. There are at least two letters written, one was a declaration of facts written in 1933 and the other to Hitler directly. The letter to Hitler sympathizes with him in his hatred of the Jews and Catholics and aligns the watchtower with the Nazi's view of Jewish and Catholic "propaganda", thus giving support in the Nazi efforts. 

Translation of a letter of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, German Branch, Wachtturmstraasse 1-19, Magdeburg/Germany:

Dear Reichskanzler,

on June 25, 1933, at the Sporthalle Wilmersdorf in Berlin there was a conference of appx. 5,000 Bible Researchers (Jehovah's Witnesses), representing several millions of Germans who are friends and followers of this movements for many years. Purpose of this conference, which was attended by representatives of all bible students communities of Germany, was to find ways and means to inform the Reichskanzler, as well as other high officials of the German Reich and the governments of its individual countries of the following:

In several parts of the country, actions were taken against a corporation of serious Christian men and women who are standing on the foundation of positive Christianity. Such actions can only described as the persecution of Christians by other Christians, since the accusations - which have led to these actions against us - primarily are of clerical, especially catholic origin and untrue.

We are absolutely convinced of the impartiality of the government officials dealing with this situation. Yet we conclude that the contents of our literature and the purpose of our movement are largely misinterpreted due to the accusations which are brought up against us by our religious opposers and which might result in a prejudiced viewpoint. This might also be due to the amount of our literature and the high demand put upon the respective officials.

For this reason the things discussed at the conference were put down as a declaration of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, in order to pro vide you, Mr. Reichskanzler, as well as the high officials of the German Reich and its countries, with a document of the fact that the Bible Re searchers of Germany only have one goal in their work, namely to lead people back to God and to be witnesses of the Name of Jehovah, the most high, the father of our Lord and redeemer Jesus Christ.

We are convinced that you, Mr. Reichskanzler, will not have such activities disturbed. The communities of the Bible Researchers of Germany and their members are generally known as defenders of respect of the Most High and zealous students of the bible. Local police officials will need to testify to the fact that Bible Researchers have to be counted among elements of the country and ist people who are known for their love and support of oder. There sole mission is to draw the hearts of humans to God.

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (located in Magdeburg/Germany) is the organizing center of the mission of the Bible Researchers.

The Brooklyn headquarter of the Watchtower Society is pro German in an exemplary way and has been so for many years. For that reason, in 1918, the president of the Society and seven members of the board of directors were sentenced to 80 years in prison, because the president refused to use two of the magazines published in America under his direction for war propaganda against Germany. These two magazines, "The Watchtower" and "Bible Student" were the only magazines in America which refused to engage in anti-German propaganda and for that reason were prohibited and suppressed in America during the war.

In the very same manner, in course of the recent months the board of directors of our Society not only refused to engage in propaganda against Germany, but has even taken a position against it. The enclosed declaration underlines this fact and emphasizes that the people leading in such propaganda (Jewish businessmen and catholics) also are the most rigorous persecutors of the work of our Society and ist board of directors. This and other statements of the declaration are meant to re pudiate the slanderous accusation, that Bible Researchers are supported by the Jews.

The conference of five thousand delegates received the statement of the governor in Magdeburg with great satisfaction, who declared that it can not be proven that there is any relationship between the Bible Researchers and Communists or Marxists, as it was stated by our religious opposers (which means that such a statement is also nothing but slander). A press report in the Magdeburger Tageszeitung, issue 104, dated May 5, 1933, reads as follows:

A declaration of the government concerning the occupation of the Bible Researcher building: The press department of the government issued the following information: "Occupation of the property of the Society of Serious Bible Researchers" in Magdeburg was lifted on April 29, since no material to support the claim of communist activities could be found."

Another report in the Magdeburger Tageszeitung, issue 102, dated May 3, 199, reads:

The office of the Bible Researchers Society informed us that the actions taken against the Watchtower Society and the Bible Researchers Society, were abolished. All property was returned, since a comprehensive search led to the result that nothing can be held against this Society neither as far as political nor as criminal activities are concerned. It was also concluded that both Societies are of an absolutely un-political and strictly religious nature. On request, the government confirmed the correctness of these statements.

The conference of five thousand delegates emphasized that according to this state of affairs it considered it beneath ist dignity to even defend itself against any disparaging accusations of Marxist or even Communist activites. Such disproved slander of our religious opposers undoubtedly carry the sign of religious competition. Their goal is to stifle an honest warner with the ugly means of slander instead of using the word of God.

The conference of five thousand delegates also noted - as is expressed in the declaration - that the Bible Researchers of Germany are fighting for the very same high ethical goals and ideals which also the national government of the German Reich proclaimed respecting the relationship of humans to God, namels: honesty of the created being towards its creator.

The conference came to the conclusion that there are no contradictions when it comes to the relationship between the Bible Researchers of Germany to the national government of the German Reich. To the contrary, referring to the purely religious and unpolitical goals and efforts of the Bible Researchers, it can be said that these are in full agreement with the identical goals of the national government of the German Reich.

Based upon the supposedly strong language of our literature, some of our books were banned. The conference of the five thousand delegates pointed to the fact that the contents of the books which were criticized, only refers to the situation and actions within the Anglo-American world power - especially England - which is responsible for the League of Nations and its contracts and burdons imposed upon Germany. What is written in our literature - no matter whether from a financial or political point of view - is only directed towards the suppressors of the German people and their country, but by no means refers to Germany itself, which is trying hard to fight against the imposed burdens. Therefore the ban imposed upon these books is completely unjustified.

In some parts of the country Bible Researchers are even prohibited to meet for prayer and church service and for many weeks are hoping for a solution of this situation which is stifling their religious lives. The follow ing was expressed about this situation:

We want to continue to live up to the prohibition imposed upon us, for we are confident that Mr. Reichskanzler and the high government officials will lift this ban - which forces tens of thousands of Christian men and women to a martyrdom which can only be compared to that of the first Christians - after they have gained an understanding of the real situation.

Finally, the conference of the five thousand delegates expressed that both Bible Researchers and Watchtower Organization stand for keeping up order and security within the state, as well as furthering the primary high ideals of the national government in the field of religion. The afore mentioned, as well as the enclosed declaration are meant as a brief information directed to both Mr. Reichskanzler as leader of the people and all the other high government officials of the German Reich.

The enclosed declaration was read by the secretary to the five thousand delegates of the conference of the Bible Researchers. It was approved unanimously and it was decided to present one copy each together with this report of the conference to Mr. Reichskanzler and all the other high government officials of the Reich and its countries.

This we want to do herewith and ask that the following request, which is also stated in the declaration, will be received with favour:

Namely that a commission from our midst is given the chance to person ally explain the true situation either to Mr. Reichskanzler himself or to the minister of internal affairs. Alternatively, we ask Mr. Reichskanzler to appoint a commission of men who do not have any religious prejudice against us - men who do not have professional religious interests but are solely interested to comply to the just principles as they were set up by the Reichskanzler himself - to investigate our situation impartially. The principles mentioned, refer to paragraph 24 of the program of the National Socialistic German Party of Workers, which reads:

"We demand the freedom of all religious denominations within the state, as far as they do not endanger the state itself or violate the moral values of the German race.

The party as such represents the viewpoint of positive Christianity without being attached to any particular denomination. It fights against the Jewish-materialistic spirit inside and outside of us and is convinced that any recovery of the German people can only take place from the inside out."

We are fully convinced that, once we have been judged impartially, based firstly upon God's word and secondly upon the above mentioned paragraphs, the national government of Germany will find no reason to prevent us from our church services and missionary activities.

We are looking forward to your kind approval, which we hope to receive soon, and want to assure our highest respect to you, honorable Mr. Reichskanzler.

Yours faithfully

Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society Magdeburg

28 minutes ago, Dada Boncy said:

I am not very articulate but I will try to answer this question.  When the people called on the name of Jehovah in Genesis, they did not know him or the meaning of his name.  Notice when he said his name to Moses, he also stated the meaning of his name.  So Abraham, Jacob and the servants that came before Moses knew his name but not the meaning of his name.

That is a theory that many scholars adhere to and there are many scholars who believe differently. It all comes down to personal belief. This subject has little to do with actual salvation. The org has not allowed its followers to consider or adopt opinions or beliefs outside of their own for fear of being labeled brother. This captivity by fear keeps the blinders on its followers so tightly, that they are not allowed to look at or have an opinion about something that really isn't doctrine, but rather an observation of scripture. 

So you DO believe that God could not preserve His name without man's help. Ok, I understand your position now.

On 4/28/2016 at 4:56 PM, Jesus.defender said:

If the name Jehovah is so important, then why is it never used in the entire Greek New Testament? If men edited out the name of God, "YHWH" when they copied the New Testament, as only the Watchtower organization claims, then how can we have any confidence in any of the New Testament? Should we discard the New Testament or the Watchtower organization as unreliable?
 

good questions. I have one to add:

If God's name was removed and MAN had to put it back in, then this is saying that God cannot preserve His own word without the help of MAN. So is this what JW's actually believe, that God is powerless to preserve His own word without the help of men?

Is it appropriate for minors to get baptized?

No

Jesus was around 30 years old when He was. Isn't Jesus our role model? Shouldn't we Imitate Jesus? 

15 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Thanks for your interest.  Don't you pray?

 

Why yes I do.  So you don't know if you are anointed and you don't know who it is your even praying to.Tacking on Jesus name at the end of your prayer isn't speaking to Him as you suggest. 

15 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

We talk to God in prayer; we have a helper or an advocate with the Father, Christ.

The helper is the Holy Spirit according to Jesus. 

John 14:16&17

" 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you."

Jesus is our mediator as the Bible teaches us, just as you quoted 1 Timothy 2:5, but the watchtower says otherwise to its followers. You do know this, right? If you are not of the 144k, then Jesus is NOT your mediator according to the society. 

22 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Right now we talk to Jehovah God through his Son, the Mediator between God and mankind, Jesus Christ.

So you must be of the anointed? Doesn't the watchtower say that Jesus is only the mediator for the 144,000?

emphasis mine:

"The new covenant includes 144,000 anointed ones. They make up a new nation that is called “the Israel of God,” or  spiritual Israel.—Galatians 6:16;Revelation 14:1, 4.

12. How do the Law covenant and the new covenant compare?

¹² How do the Law covenant and the new covenant compare? The Law covenant was between Jehovah and the nation of Israel, and the new covenant is between Jehovah and spiritual Israel. Moses was the mediator of the Law covenant, and Jesus is the Mediator of the new covenant."

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/ws201410/a-kingdom-of-priests/#?insight[search_id]=e7002f2b-0d7b-4d45-a877-6963766dfd7c&insight[search_result_index]=0

"While Jesus' mediatorship operates solely toward those in the new covenant" Insight Vol 2 pg 362

You don't actually talk to Jesus, you just end your prayer with His name....right? 

Under inspiration,  Moses wrote. When he wrote exodus, he said that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did not know God's name. God told Moses this directly. 

It is my belief that no one before Moses knew God's name, based on Exodus. So to answer you plainly, yes

Moses wrote what he was suppose to write by inspiration.

Since Exodus 6:2&3 tell us that Moses is the first to know God by His name and Moses wrote Genesis and Exodus so he would have written them by what he knew. 

2 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Not the answer to the question.

 

I believe Moses did that under inspiration at  Genesis 4:26 "At that time the people began calling on the name of Jehovah" 

 

Actually it is the answer. 

Yes. I agree, that's why Moses wrote what he wrote. Moses had knowledge that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did not and that is why when he wrote the accounts of Genesis he clarified what was meant. He knew the name of God and thus wrote it in where it should have been, under inspiration, to give us the context of the faith Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had for God.

They called on God 

not for me to resolve, it is scripture.

Exodus 6:2 

² And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the Lord:

³ And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

Moses was the one who wrote Genesis, and thus the reason why I refer to Moses. Think about it, if you knew all of the characters of a story that someone had told you and they didn't, after the person who told you died, you write the story. Are you going to leave out the names of the characters just because the person who told you the story didn't know them? No, and neither would Moses. You would include all of the facts that you knew to make the story as accurate as possible.