Shiwiii

18 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

if the young ones seek, and they are ready and worked hard for it,

This statement right here is unbiblical.  For reference see acts 8:34-38

On 2/27/2019 at 10:36 AM, Space Merchant said:

The Bible speaks of Baptism of people of all nations, and as far as everyone here knows, young ones are people, persons as well.

stretching it a bit aren't we? I mean on a full on technicality yes you are correct, but if we are going to use logic and common sense, you fail. If you really want to believe this , go right ahead, the rest of us will continue in the real world. 

On 2/27/2019 at 10:36 AM, Space Merchant said:

What Jesus said has grander context to it. When it comes to Baptism, we must recognize that God the Father himself, YHWH, since very clear and concise as to why this is – that he is the creator, he is the one life giver, the foundation of life. In addition, we learn from what the Bible conveys, regarding obtainable salvation whereas humans of mankind can gain salvation by recognizing the role of the Son, Christ Jesus, in God’s Purpose and Will, and we see what was played out very later on in the New Testament beyond the Evangelical accounts, and as to how many, many people became followers of the teacher; the disciple following the teachings of the teacher, as stated. Lastly, we must also be aware, knowing the role of God’s Holy Spirit. Reasons why is because God uses his spirit to give life, in fact, God’s spirit hath made both you, I and every one of us here on this forum, outside of it, to be short, every of us of mankind, humans, in all. By means of the spirit that God gives, it enables his spoken word to humans, molded and or moved by God’s Spirit and more so, it enables us to do the Purpose and Will of God, just as Jesus, and many others have, something of which Paul had addressed; and or what is written. It is no surprise of what you support and what is ignored, the truth of the matter, in regard to what Jesus met in this passage, regarding this, I will leave it at that. I recall I said to you and others to always check the references, perhaps you should do the same for this passage.

if Jesus is our example and this was how He said to do it, then why is it not adhered to? Oh, that's right, because YOU and the wt know better. Got it. 

On 2/27/2019 at 10:36 AM, Space Merchant said:

The Bible speaks of Baptism of people of all nations, and as far as everyone here knows, young ones are people, persons as well. Be it a young person, or an older folk, as long as they seek it, individuals who demonstrate and show as such, hearing and believing the truth about God and his Kingdom, believing that God had sent the Lord, etc. glorifying the one and True God of all people – baptism is an option, sought after by God fearing people who are mature spiritually, who wants to follow the teachings of the teacher, the one who had been sent, Christ Jesus. Indeed, there are many Scriptures of teaching them, and there are Scriptures in regard to those who accept the truth of what is written and become baptized, those to take up the truth, they and their households are baptized; all persons of all nations. Do not accuse me of twisting Scripture, for such a thing I have not done ever, moreover, I uttered no more than a snippet of Matthew 28:18, and haven’t gone on about what I had addressed before so how on God’s earth am I twisting Scriptures if you do not mind me asking? Somehow a nation of people is totally alien of young ones, who are evidently within the households of people from one nation to the next. That being said, the only position I support is what was professed in the Scripture itself regarding those who take up the word, and sought baptism, and glorying the one and True God.

What Jesus said has grander context to it. When it comes to Baptism, we must recognize that God the Father himself, YHWH, since very clear and concise as to why this is – that he is the creator, he is the one life giver, the foundation of life. In addition, we learn from what the Bible conveys, regarding obtainable salvation whereas humans of mankind can gain salvation by recognizing the role of the Son, Christ Jesus, in God’s Purpose and Will, and we see what was played out very later on in the New Testament beyond the Evangelical accounts, and as to how many, many people became followers of the teacher; the disciple following the teachings of the teacher, as stated. Lastly, we must also be aware, knowing the role of God’s Holy Spirit. Reasons why is because God uses his spirit to give life, in fact, God’s spirit hath made both you, I and every one of us here on this forum, outside of it, to be short, every of us of mankind, humans, in all. By means of the spirit that God gives, it enables his spoken word to humans, molded and or moved by God’s Spirit and more so, it enables us to do the Purpose and Will of God, just as Jesus, and many others have, something of which Paul had addressed; and or what is written. It is no surprise of what you support and what is ignored, the truth of the matter, in regard to what Jesus met in this passage, regarding this, I will leave it at that. I recall I said to you and others to always check the references, perhaps you should do the same for this passage.

Actually it does, hence my statement, made to what you have mentioned, holds steadfast. It pertains to the Baptism being done at the Jordan River, and as to why John was baptizing the people, his people there. Because not many people know the origins of baptism well, some churches out there believe only infants should be baptism, and others, only adults. Others will sprinkle, while others will immerse. Those who seek to become baptized are those who be means heard the word of God and or received his spirit, glorying God in the process. Clearly such pertains to those who are literate, and able to comprehend what has been taught and or learnt from God's Word, something of which I addressed several times before.

Everyone makes mistakes, even children, but it does not stop them from being taught what repentance actually is, as is with right and wrong, good and bad, regarding repentance, what the action of repenting is regarding sincere regret or remorse over wrong doing, so the ability to teach such should not be withheld from them whatsoever. And it is good how you mention what you said about parents, just as Jesus was taught by Mary and Joseph, parents today can teach their children on such matters, even about repentance, read to them from the Scriptures of such examples, even that of those, who are for God, who indeed had made mistakes and showed genuine repentance to return into the hands of God our Father.

A child who is able to learn is capable of comprehending right from wrong, even the like of consequences that stem from wrong doing. Not only such is taught by parents, pertaining to teaching children about the law, this is done even in the schools to which such is also taught to children, usually in form of clubs that take place during school hours or afterwards, moreover, yes young ones know that there are things, negative, that is done it should land a wrongdoer in jail, as for consequences that lead up to such a thing, this can be learnt, i.e. shoplifting results in jailtime, consequence, such actions becomes part of the culprit’s record or the consequence of crossing the street can be either death and or injury, and so forth, on the other side of the spectrum, young ones who are not taught such things take actions upon themselves worrying little of the consequence and or the end result of said actions, but by then it is far too late.

Regarding all things Scriptural and of God, we teach our children these things, again, even about repentance, for what the Bible conveys shouldn’t be withheld, even to those who are young and seek to learn and become mature spiritually.

That being said, man, woman, boy, or girl, let’s throw in the elderly folk too, should they be seeking to gain spiritual maturity, and willfully seeking baptism, wanting to take up that mantle of responsibility. And yes, all faithful persons tend to make mistakes, there’s no denial of such from anyone, but like faithful persons, that stand back up after they had fell down or stumbled.

I didn't even read this past a few sentences, why? because it is the same thing from you. A twist or some convoluted definition of a word that technically makes you seem correct. Again, believe what you'd like and I'll do as well. Those of us who reside in the real world will continue to understand implications of words and context just fine. 

Just curious, why is it that every answer you give to me has this same ring to it? It always comes back to a broad definition that makes your argument technically correct even when you know it isn't?   

8 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

When you've been a JW and you've seen things first hand it's quite funny to read other people's ideas that have not been in the situations. 

Here in the UK congregations are quite competitive and baptisms is one way. At assemblies there is always this 'excitement' about which congregation will be having someone baptised. Two of our daughters (both over twenty) got baptised, one in each of two consecutive assemblies. At one of the assemblies one of our daughters was the only person baptised and so she had the baptism talk 'all to herself', though of course it was to the whole assembly. But it was noticeable that some people were not too happy. Once again I know what some here will say, they will say it is all in my mind

However, in my opinion, a lot of baptisms of children are for the wrong reasons. Competition within a congregation and competition between one congregation and another. It's not healthy, and not spiritually good, to have such competition. So you folks that think it's ok for 5 year olds, well it's your way of thinking. But is it God's way of thinking ? Because that is what is most important. 

Right.  Does God need us to be baptized at all? Nope.

Does it do us some good? yep, but it is not required. Thus it is not required of anyone per Luke 23

³⁹ One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him,^[d] saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” ⁴⁰ But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? ⁴¹ And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” ⁴² And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” ⁴³ And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

On the contrary, it isn't solely the Watchtower who profess baptism in this regard. Anyone, even that of a child, who has professed and applied teaches of the Scripture, dedicated to being a follower of the Christ and adhere to his God, etc. are able and willing. Young ones who do seek baptism understand this means, and it enables them do do more for God. You'd be surprise of how willing some children are to do God's Will just as many before them - I made this point months ago, and as such, still stands in accordance with Scripture.

After all, heed what was said, go ye therefore, and teach all nations.

Parents can still teach their children, as well as the church itself. Is this of an issue for you because such isn't alien in the realm of Christendom.

no one argues that children are capable of aligning with God and naturally some do. However, child baptism is not spoken of in the Bible. There are many scriptures about teaching them, but none about baptizing them. You are twisting scripture to support your position on children. The scripture states what Jesus said to His disciples and even then the jw falls short on exactly how Jesus said to baptize. 

¹⁸ And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. ¹⁹ Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in^[b] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, ²⁰ teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Again, another misunderstanding of my words. Regarding the origin of Baptism itself, to be specific, as to the representation of the Jordan River, the symbolism behind it, when people has learnt about God, and clearly understand Scripture, he or she can be baptized should they seek it. I recall saying something along the lines before, regarding this, that in this regard, the follower is now following the teachings of this teacher, in turn, they are all not learning about God in unison, with new and old disciples; they all have a common goal as baptized brothers and sisters, in union with the Christ.

You do realize as to the symbolism regarding the people of Israel, do you not? Also in regards to Jesus yes, we do follow his example and the like, and it is not unknown to what he and all the Jews professed, from childhood into adulthood, in which both Mary and Joseph had taught him, in which Zechariah and Elizabeth had taught John.

this whole statement here provides nothing to the conversation of child baptism. 

2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

We can teach our children to read and write, which is done by parents, guardians, older folk of the same blood, and those in educational and or teaching institutions. In this sense, we can teach our children, something of which I am very adamant about and had professed in a number of times. In regards to Jesus, when he was very young, his parents had taught him, in regards to the Law found in Deuteronomy, which is still professed today by many, we are to observe, recite, read, and learn who the God of Israel is, reasons why when Jesus professed Shema Yisrael it points back to the Law found in the Old Testament; this same Law of which even Paul professed in 1 Corinthians.

Education is always key, especially when it comes to spiritual education. By means of such, we can teach our children about God, as well as what is good and what is bad. All people have an opportunity to learn about God and be baptized, even children, who seek to learn and understand that God, literate enough to read Scripture, and to understand, they too can learn and be baptized.

Do not underestimate children who are capable of reading and understanding the Scriptures, just as God opened his hand to you, he does the same to children who seek to learn about him, to understand him, about his Son, and the Kingdom; in which what it will bring forth to mankind.

again, How can a child understand the concept of repentance when they in general, commit the same mistakes over and over?   They can't, that's why there are age appropriate punishments.  I wrote this again because it really is this simple, Children learn from their parents and by experiences, but that does not give them the ability to understand consequences of all sorts. For instance, a child does not comprehend the consequence of failure to obey the law, they just know it is bad or they might get thrown in jail, not the actual consequences. 

On 2/24/2019 at 5:01 AM, Space Merchant said:

I do not see why people take issue to a young one being baptized. As long as the young one has learnt about God, understand Scripture and a list of other things, he or she can be baptized should they seek it. This goes hand in hand with everything pertaining to the origin of baptism as a whole, and what John did in regards to what it represented other than forgiveness of sin, etc. There is a historical factor played into all of this.

I think the reason why is because of how the wt holds it over the children in such a way that they are shunned if the child makes a mistake, as children usually do. This takes the authority away from the parents to teach and guide their children and gives it to the wt. Such a decision should not be made by children, but rather when they become adults and are fully informed of the repercussions of not following the company policy. 

as far as the origin of baptism as a whole, I do not recall of an instance of a child being baptized in the Bible. In fact Jesus Himself was not until He reached the age of 30, and since He is our guide and example, shouldn't we also adhere to His standard/example? 

How can a child understand the concept of repentance when they in general, commit the same mistakes over and over?   They can't, that's why there are age appropriate punishments.  

On 2/5/2019 at 8:24 AM, Anna said:

The WT wouldn't have printed this unless it was a problem.

But wait, did the wt print the news articles about child abuse? I mean we all know that is a problem within the org. 

On 2/5/2019 at 12:07 PM, Outta Here said:

Oh look!!! Those silly disciples are still at it!

Just like it says at Mark 10:13-16.....................

"People now began bringing him young children for him to touch them, but the disciples reprimanded them. At seeing this, Jesus was indignant and said to them: “Let the young children come to me; do not try to stop them, for the Kingdom of God belongs to such ones. Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the Kingdom of God like a young child will by no means enter into it.” And he took the children into his arms and began blessing them, laying his hands on them."

So equating coming to Jesus to be blessed with baptism is how you justify this practice?  Reread the scripture you quoted, it states NOTHING about baptizing. This is the classic example of where the wt has trained it's followers to use scripture out of context just as they do.

7 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Never again will I play with the ‘i’s of Shiwiii and am a little ashamed of having done so at all. Thank you.

 

lol, no offense ever taken over it. It is actually spelled with only one i at the end. I think somehow the forum made me add them. 

https://glosbe.com/zun/en/shiwi

http://ashiwi-museum.org/

On 2/7/2019 at 6:05 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

The download is free.in EPUB or PDF.

I did. 

I have read not all of it but enough of it to formulate my opinion and make a good comment in good conscience.

Tom, you have written with a passion and a poise from your true belief and heart. I cannot deny that fact. I commend you for the amount of what you put into words and can honestly say that it truly takes a writer to write as much as you have in this, and the other books you have written. You have given the reader a solid grasp of the topic you represent and that is something I struggle to see here in this forum at times. While I understand that everyone writes for different reasons, some want to provide facts while others want to present missed information and many more reasons. The only thing I can say about your book that is relevant to this topic on this forum, is that it is a  opinion piece. There is nothing wrong with that, it just is what it is. I appreciate the fact that you let me read it, it gives me more understanding of who you are and where your thoughts reside. Thank you Tom. 

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It is well past time to kick back at certain dogs that are barking, even if I don’t get very far. You’ll be happy to know that your ‘contributions’ make up a substantial of the chapter ‘Money’ of Dear Mr. Putin -Jehovah’s Witnesses Write Russia.

Don’t misunderstand. Ones who hated Witnesses before will still hate them. But most people recognize mean-spirited pettiness when they see it, harping upon what is essentially nothing for the sake of tearing down something noble. These are the ones I have endeavored to reach, as explained in the Introduction.

https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/815620

The Witness organization does a lot of things. It takes money. Duh.

They are not afraid to say that. They don’t say it every single meeting, which is the pattern in the world of churches. You could easily miss it if you weren’t paying attention.

 

Tom, 

I read your introduction to you book. I'll reply tomorrow on it. I want to make a good statement,  and have to think about it.  Perhaps you can send me a digital copy and I'll read it and respond accordingly.  Until then, I'll reply tomorrow.  

15 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Hey, @Shiwiiiiiiiiiiiiii:

THIS is where my little joke better fits:

Did you hear the one about the ‘prosperity gospel’ preacher who tried to lure them in with Beatles tunes and got stuck on the first line?

“You never give me your money.

You never give me your mohuhuny.

 You never give me your muhuhuhuhuhoneeee.”

 

Let’s draw in a few more dense people and then see whether we can knock it out of the park.

You know what is kinda funny Tom? 

Is that your sarcastic comments have underlying truth to it that you don't even know. It's almost like you do know, but can't say it frankly, so you have to resort to the sarcasm. 

I'm just curious about what people think when they hear that more kh's have been sold and folks sent to other kh's that had less people in it. This has come about with the recent announcement in Montreal of the dissolving of 16 cong's and closures of 3 kh's by April of this year. I think it is very interesting, mostly because this is the new trend. Selling of kh's as well as property in Brooklyn.

What gets me thinking is the recent changes from the past few years. At one time the local people owned the kh's, took loans out and paid for everything mostly with local funds and labor. Then we had the provision that the wt would assume the loans and local cong's would just pay wt. This was an open-ended situation with no payoff date. Local cong's would just keep paying what they were prior and all would be good. Now, I am sure that there are plenty of situations that warrant wt's help in paying for the kh's, but all in all it looked like a nice steady income for wt. Now I am seeing the merge of cong's and kh's being sold. Who gets this money? oh well, we all know who......wt. Not the local cong who built it. To me this is interesting and something that I think will wake up a lot of folks as they look into it, but I'd like to hear some thoughts from the other side of the coin. 

Anyone care to answer? 

5 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Yes, Shiwiiiiiii, let’s go at this again:

ok sure, answer this: 

Johnny boy is allowed to recycle his plastic, glass bottles and aluminum cans in the State of Arizona

in California (in certain cities) Johnny boy is required to recycle his plastic, glass bottles and aluminum cans.

Is this the same thing? Is the practice of  recycling "fixed" in Arizona?  

2 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Wow TTH and Anna working together to undermine TRUTH

I expect nothing less from those who defend the practices of wt/gb about CSA. 

on a good note though, truth has a way of planting a seed and It WILL grow, it will grow on their conscience in due time.  

1 minute ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The real problem is that people have children. This should not be allowed. Most parents have children only so that they may abuse them. Produce children in factories instead, and raise them in communal settings where supervisors have been vetted by authorities* so as to avoid any possible occasion for abuse.  Sheesh.

*and have certificates to prove it.

Why do you dodge simple truth in order to divert the topic to something irrelevant for the sake of sarcasm when you could just answer straightforward?  

7 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

People should be concerned about how these things look Jehovah not just to men.  If we get the mind of Christ, we would see the seriousness of this lawless act. 

14 hours ago, Anna said:

It says: "Depending on the facts of the actual situation, this COULD constitute sexual immorality". In other words if the actual situation involved intercourse/oral sex, then that would constitute sexual immorality.......(and would be grounds for divorce).

So why then does said practice have to be defined? Have they run out of material/spiritual food, kinda like tv shows sometimes? 

Is it going to be in the next wt that murder might be a disfellowshiping offence?

They created more questions then the answer they gave. Silly really.

18 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Everyone knows that it is fixed. The only people not knowing it are those who are convinced that Jehovah’s Witnesses are evil incarnate whose charter purpose is to abuse children, and they will not be convinced until there is a cop in every Witness home.

regardless what I think about jws in general, there is a big difference from being allowed and requiring. 

Here, for your entertainment Tom: 

Johnny boy is allowed to recycle his plastic, glass bottles and aluminum cans in the State of Arizona

in California (in certain cities) Johnny boy is required to recycle his plastic, glass bottles and aluminum cans.

Is this the same thing? Is the practice of  recycling "fixed" in Arizona?  

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Now that they have been fixed, one wonders if their opposition will stop, or even turn into advocacy in view of the overall benefits of the Witness faith.

Hang on just a second Tom. Do you really think this is fixed?  I mean, now it ALLOWS reporting without repercussion and not instructed to report. That is not quite the same thing. Don't get me wrong, I am happy to see that they are now allowing it to be reported, but it isn't the fix. 

3 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

But the cops might be immoral too, or even pedophiles also.Who knows. Would create a bigger problem.

 

But it is their job right? They are trained professionals,  right? Unlike any person called a wt elder. 

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Reporting to authorities has now been endorsed.

Sadly it has taken the secular courts in many countries to force this to happen. Not by the desire to protect,  not the pleas of the victims, and not because of what is right, it is solely because of the loss of money. 

Just now, Anna said:

there is nothing stopping them from reporting it

There is,  you know it as well as everyone on this forum.  Your cognitive dissonance is showing. 

2 minutes ago, Anna said:

In your own words: Finally, they finally get it that it is the wrong doer who is the bad guy and not the reporter 

And as for your argument that this is just lip service because of the two witness rule, then no, the two witness rule only applies in order to form a judicial meeting. No one has to have two witnesses to bring it to the authorities.

I don't have time for anymore of this rubbish, just going round in circles. You either have a hard time comprehending, or you are purposefully taking my time up.

yes, and I stand by my comments. Finally there is a change, albeit a slight one, but still some change. Sadly this is knee jerk reaction to the piling up lawsuits. 

No, technically no one needs another witness to bring anything up to the proper authorities, but this is just a play on words with you. You know right well what we are talking about, but choose to hide behind words and technical definitions to convey your support for the org as well as your possible disgust of CSA and to save face with normal people. You have been trained to play words to create loopholes, just as John was talking about. 

Anna, I agree we cannot continue this conversation based on technical definitions of words and the ambiguity of your position based upon whom you are talking to or about, instead of the actual topic and PROBLEM at hand. 

2 minutes ago, Anna said:

Then we are in agreement.

really? Or is it only the part before and not this part:

10 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Do not go to the body of Elders. Trust no one, but know that God allows those secular  authorities to be there to do His work. 

Just now, Anna said:

OMG! How are you going to report it if you don't know about it????

Did you even read what I wrote? 

In your scenario, no one knows.....no one.......nada....zilch....none. So it cannot be reported.  And how in the world do you even consider this to be a supporting factor in the discussion? Its like saying if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? 

In mine, maybe I failed to mention the part of someone going to the elders, but someone DOES know and still refuses to report it.  

1 minute ago, Anna said:

We are  talking about real life, you said it yourself:

 

so then there you have it, it should be reported because it is abuse and sometimes the victim will not come forward based on fear of more abuse. How is that to happen in your scenario? not a single person knows of the abuse, not one. But when elders do know about it they refuse to report based on no mandatory reporting laws. 

Again, there wouldn't be lawsuits if this weren't real. 

1 minute ago, Anna said:

Ok. What would you do if the victim doesn't speak out?

you're taking us down a hypothetical right? 

If nothing is said and no one knows anything, then yes on your technicality there is nothing to report ( see John, its the loophole thing again). However, we're NOT talking about hypothetical, we're talking about real life and real people and real situations, or else there wouldn't be any lawsuits....right?