Shiwiii

That’s right. Jehovah has always had an “Organization” . 
“Jehovah’s direction is to use the swifter” .... many of our dear r and f (rank and file) loved ones use “Organization” and  “Jehovah” interchangeably.
To these ones - in many cases our still in - close family physically in mentally in, PIMI 
to them, sadly the words and concept ORGANIZATION + JEHOVAH mean exactly the same thing.

(paragraph) 6 A sin against the congregation
"We do not tolerate in our midst individuals who unrepentantly commit wicked deeds and who bring reproach on the good name of the congregation."
Um, how is it then that some Elders have been found to have commited sex offencies against more than one child and a lot more than once per child, in a congregation ? 
Court cases prove this point. 

you're taking us down a hypothetical right? 
If nothing is said and no one knows anything, then yes on your technicality there is nothing to report ( see John, its the loophole thing again). However, we're NOT talking about hypothetical, we're talking about real life and real people and real situations, or else there wouldn't be any lawsuits....right?   

Of course it is. It is the MO of the wt in general. Sadly the good people who belong to this org can't see it yet. They will when the wt/gb pins the onus on the individual instead of the group. Loopholes are common in wt and often used in supporting their view of scripture. 

Go directly to the police or a local authority. Do not go to the body of Elders. Trust no one, but know that God allows those secular  authorities to be there to do His work. 
Now I'm presuming that the single mother and child has good standing in the congregation of course, so that no accusations can be 'slung' at them by the Elders in retaliation. 
Not so in my case, as I've already been accused of slander and was threatened of being disfellowshipped before i left..  
I never did hear back from the Police that i contacted online.  

I agree with you, there is NOTHING Christ-like about allowing CSA or any abuse to continue because the "laws" of men don't require reporting it to the police. 
Can you even imagine, when the time comes, and Jesus is standing there asking each and every one of us about our life choices. When He asks, are some people really going to say "well, there wasn't a law stating we had to report CSA/abuse to proper authorities" 
Romans 14:10"...For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
    and every tongue shall confess[b] to God.”
12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God."
 

Anna, it IS what we are discussing, what made me think this:  this:
 
And so that makes it ok???????? are you serious?!?!?!?!?   As people who profess to follow the BIBLE shouldn't the conduct be that above other spheres of society? Or do you feel its ok because everyone is slime? so we might as well be slime too. Sheesh
 
the wt/gb/etc. For reference you can research all of the surrent and past court cases involving CSA in the US/Canada/Australia/England/Germany/Norway/......shall I continue? 
 
there is NOTHING Christ-like about allowing CSA or any abuse to continue because the "laws" of men don't require reporting it to the police. 
 
 
So when the ms or elder molests a child and tells the child that he/she will kill them or their family or the family dog , scares them into submission, its ok because they didn't want to tell. Is this what you are saying? Or how about the wife that is getting the crap beat out of her and fears for her life, let it continue because she is scared to report for fear of more abuse? Riiiiight. Sounds like a good plan Anna. 

Paragraph 17. What is the role of the judicial committee?
" The elders do not interfere with law enforcement; they leave criminal matters to the secular authorities. "
But they may withhold paperwork / documents /notes, from the police or authorities, even when requested to hand them over. 

I agree with you, there is NOTHING Christ-like about allowing CSA or any abuse to continue because the "laws" of men don't require reporting it to the police. 
Can you even imagine, when the time comes, and Jesus is standing there asking each and every one of us about our life choices. When He asks, are some people really going to say "well, there wasn't a law stating we had to report CSA/abuse to proper authorities" 
Romans 14:10"...For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
    and every tongue shall confess[b] to God.”
12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God."
 

Yes but if there are not two witnesses then there will be 'no case to answer', especially if the accused is an Elder. 
And if there is 'no case to answer' then there will of course be nothing to report to the authorities. 
And if the victim continues to make complaint against the Elder, then the victim will be disfellowshipped for slander. 
I have the mag up online now. 
" 15 In the congregation, before the elders take judicial action, why are at least two witnesses required? This requirement is part of the Bible’s high standard of justice. "
Is this really the case in Child Abuse ? Does it say this in the Bible regarding Child Abuse ?
I think not. I think it refers to a disagreement between two adults. 
I do not think God or Christ would put this pressure on young children. 

So when the ms or elder molests a child and tells the child that he/she will kill them or their family or the family dog , scares them into submission, its ok because they didn't want to tell. Is this what you are saying? Or how about the wife that is getting the crap beat out of her and fears for her life, let it continue because she is scared to report for fear of more abuse? Riiiiight. Sounds like a good plan Anna. 
Then leave crimes to the police instead of covering them up! Report the crime and THEN deal with the sin. 

Melinda,  Come on. This IS the wt we're talking about. Well known fact here what CSA means in wt world

Why does it take the Inquisition into the CSA by governments around the world, lawsuits in many countries and  the threat of non-profit status in a few countries to FORCE the wt/gb to amend the CSA policy?  The article is in the May 2019 WT and the title of the article is "Love and Justice in the Face of Wickedness". 
 
 
"13 Do elders comply with secular laws about reporting an allegation of child abuse to the secular authorities? Yes. In places where such laws exist, elders endeavor to comply with secular laws about reporting allegations of abuse....So when they learn of an allegation, elders immediately seek direction on how they can comply with laws about reporting it."
 
I can see that they still won't enforce reporting to the police each and every CSA case only if required by law.  Key word is "REQUIRED" .
 
"14 Elders assure victims and their parents and others with knowledge of the  matter that they are free to report an allegation of abuse to the secular authorities. But what if the report is about someone who is a part of the congregation and the matter then becomes known in the community? Should the Christian who reported it feel that he has brought reproach on God’s name? No. The abuser is the one who brings reproach on God’s name."
 
Finally, they finally get it that it is the wrong doer who is the bad guy and not the reporter.......but, I'm sure this is just lip service. And here's why:
 
 
16 When they learn that someone in the congregation is accused of child abuse, elders endeavor to comply with any secular laws about reporting the matter, and then they conduct a Scriptural investigation. If the individual denies the accusation, the elders consider the testimony of witnesses. If at least two people—the one making the accusation and someone else who can verify this act or other acts of child abuse by the accused—establish the charge, a judicial committee is formed. 
 
And there you have it, two witness rule still in effect and no mandatory reporting of CSA unless mandated by law.
However, what is the true gain here? Not much, but some is better than nothing, the fact that whoever reports is not the bad guy, the abuser is.  What a wonderful provision made by the loving Jehoverning body. I hope that one day the gb/wt will be on par with humanity in reporting ALL accusations of CSA or any abuse for that matter. 

Why does it take the Inquisition into the CSA by governments around the world, lawsuits in many countries and  the threat of non-profit status in a few countries to FORCE the wt/gb to amend the CSA policy?  The article is in the May 2019 WT and the title of the article is "Love and Justice in the Face of Wickedness". 
 
 
"13 Do elders comply with secular laws about reporting an allegation of child abuse to the secular authorities? Yes. In places where such laws exist, elders endeavor to comply with secular laws about reporting allegations of abuse....So when they learn of an allegation, elders immediately seek direction on how they can comply with laws about reporting it."
 
I can see that they still won't enforce reporting to the police each and every CSA case only if required by law.  Key word is "REQUIRED" .
 
"14 Elders assure victims and their parents and others with knowledge of the  matter that they are free to report an allegation of abuse to the secular authorities. But what if the report is about someone who is a part of the congregation and the matter then becomes known in the community? Should the Christian who reported it feel that he has brought reproach on God’s name? No. The abuser is the one who brings reproach on God’s name."
 
Finally, they finally get it that it is the wrong doer who is the bad guy and not the reporter.......but, I'm sure this is just lip service. And here's why:
 
 
16 When they learn that someone in the congregation is accused of child abuse, elders endeavor to comply with any secular laws about reporting the matter, and then they conduct a Scriptural investigation. If the individual denies the accusation, the elders consider the testimony of witnesses. If at least two people—the one making the accusation and someone else who can verify this act or other acts of child abuse by the accused—establish the charge, a judicial committee is formed. 
 
And there you have it, two witness rule still in effect and no mandatory reporting of CSA unless mandated by law.
However, what is the true gain here? Not much, but some is better than nothing, the fact that whoever reports is not the bad guy, the abuser is.  What a wonderful provision made by the loving Jehoverning body. I hope that one day the gb/wt will be on par with humanity in reporting ALL accusations of CSA or any abuse for that matter. 

“I have told you these things to keep you from stumbling. 2 They will ban you from the synagogues. In fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering service to God.  John 16:1,2
"Ban" - disfellowshipping/shunning
"kill" - disfelloshipping/shunning
 

Ps 119:30 – “The unfolding of your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple.”
Dear JWs,
Can an idol hear the words of God?  Idolatry is sourced in the spirit of the world, where Satan wields his authority. 1 John 5:19  An idol cannot speak the words of God, aiding others to reach the light of understanding and truth.   John 17:17 
An idol has no compassion toward those in need, extending its hand to comfort the afflicted and those suffering in sorrow; fully able to sense their needs.   It cannot comprehend the examples of love and compassion we have in Christ.  Matt 11:28-30   
If an idol is unable to hear and speak the Word of God in Christ, then surely we know it can never walk in the path of Christ, or shine the light of truth when under the power of the wicked one.    1 Sam 12:21; Ps 119:1-5
Can an earthly fabrication, run by men, EVER bring salvation to ANYONE who joins it?  And what if it does purport to be the way to salvation; can those who represent it, hear, speak, and walk in the Word of God and the path of Christ?  No.  It would be an act of rebellion to assign salvation to anything other than the name that scripture declares as our salvation. Its leaders would be false teachers, appearing as “ministers of light”, “holding to a form of godliness, although having denied its power”.   Ps 18:2; Acts 4:12; 2 Cor 11:13-15; 2 Tim 3:5   
 Yes, idolatry IS an act of rebellion against God.  Ezek 20:8;Ps 78:58  
How do you feel about the following proclamation by your leaders, JWs?
Watchtower 1981/11/15:  “come to Jehovah’s ORGANIZATION for SALVATION”   pg 16-21 par 18
“There are those who rebel against the light, who do not know its ways or stay in its paths.” Job 24:13
If we take another fork in the Watchtower’s twisted road to “salvation”, what do your leaders say?
Watchtower 90/11/1 p. 26 – “We cannot take part in any modern version of idolatry – be it worshipful gestures toward an IMAGE OR SYMBOL or the imputing of SALVATION to a PERSON or an ORGANIZATION. 
Please, think about this the next time you view an exJW as an “apostate”.  Do you know that the most threatening “apostates” to the organization are those who have turned fully to God and Christ?  Why?  They do not hide their “lamp” under a basket, but speak the Word of God boldly for all of you to hear.  The Word of God is truth, which exposes the Watchtower’s idolatrous identity.  Luke 11:33; Rev 11:1-3; 13:1,5,11,14-17  
There is no need to return to “Jehovah’s organization”, since it is, according to the above Watchtower quote, an IDOL.  Those who desire to walk in the light of Christ, seek out the pure words of God, untainted by men, their decrees and twisted reasoning.  They have come to know that the Father does not stand on equal ground with an organization, but He alone is our Rock and our fortress.  Isa 46:5; 42:8; 2:7-10  
They have found the true God. They have returned to pure worship. Isa 57:13; Ps 24:3,4
Watchtower 1953/3/1 p. 143:  “Ask yourself now, Did Christ Jesus, who set our example and told us to follow his example to gain life, join any church ORGANIZATION in his day?  No.  GOD DOES NOT REQUIRE US TO DO THAT; but he requires us to worship him…  We have the Bible to show us the right way.  CERTAINLY IT IS NOT NECESSARY FOR A PERSON TO BECOME A MEMBER OF A CHURCH TO GAIN EVERLASTING LIFE.”
Who then, is the apostate?  One who stays clear of worldly organizations and worships in “spirit and truth”, or is it you, and your leaders who have rebelled against God by glorifying “Jehovah’s organization”?    Please, reject the Watchtower Idol, JWs.  As with all idols, this one is destined to topple soon.  John 4:23,24  
 
Psalm 115:
Not to us, YHVH, not to us,
but to Your name give glory
because of Your faithful love, because of Your truth.
2 Why should the nations say,
“Where is their God?” 
3 Our God is in heaven
and does whatever He pleases.
4 Their idols are silver and gold,
made by human hands.
5 They have mouths but cannot speak,
eyes, but cannot see.
6 They have ears but cannot hear,
noses, but cannot smell.
7 They have hands but cannot feel,
feet, but cannot walk.
They cannot make a sound with their throats.

8 Those who make them are just like them,
as are all who trust in them.
9 House of Israel, trust in YHVH!
He is their help and shield.

10 House of Aaron, trust in YHVH!
He is their help and shield.

11 You who fear the Lord, trust in YHVH!
He is their help and shield.

12 The Lord remembers us and will bless us.
He will bless the house of Israel;
he will bless the house of Aaron;
13 he will bless those who fear the Lord—
small and great alike.
14 May the Lord add to your numbers,
both yours and your children’s.
15 May you be blessed by the Lord,
the Maker of heaven and earth.
16 The heavens are the Lord’s heavens
but the earth he has given to the children of men.

17 It is not the dead who praise the Lord,
nor any of those descending into the silence of death.
18 But we will bless the Lord,
both now and forever.
Praise the Lord!
 
Pearl Doxsey 
    "Can the Watchtower Crumble?"
    "Who is the False Prophet that Gives Breath to the Image of the Beast?"
 
 
 
 

"Pops", "Bud," from a 15 year old that thinks he knows everything. Oh dear.
From a 'person' that uses a black ghost to identify with. Interesting, from a supposed JW. 
Quote "There's one person in particular who is a special case whereas I made promise to meet with her at least 2-3 times a week. It is something that is both personal and private." 
Um, are you a young man meeting up with a female in private ? That is a disfellowshipping offence you know. No two witnesses needed to accuse you of fornication. GB rules. 
Quote 'Anti-pauline is a legitimate expression'. Yes so is homophobia. What point are you trying to prove ? 
I love and believe Paul's writings to the congregations. However my feelings are that Paul was talking to those of the Heavenly Class / the Anointed, not to any of the earthly class. More is expected of the Anointed because they have been given more responsibility and have a greater reward. (Being in heaven with God and Jesus Christ is surely a greater award, even though a pure life here on Earth will be wonderful ).
Quote "Can you give an example of non scriptural rules ? "  
The two witness rule concerning Child Abuse. 
The misuse of the scripture about the Superior Authorities, from 1929 to 1962  I believe. 
The accusation of fornication if a man and woman enters a place with no other Witnesses with them. 
( But no accusation about two men or two women, which could be seen by others are homosexuality ).
The Blood Issue rules that keep changing. 
The shunning rules, when a person 'resigns' from the JW Org. 
Reasons the GB use for disfellowshipping. (This touches on other subjects but would make another topic).
So young person, I'm not your 'Pops' and I'm not your 'Bud'. 
You completely lost your side of this discussion by using those expressions, and yes, you showed yourself as Not having the Mind of Christ

If Christ, who is one in Spirit with the Father (John 17:22),  did not know who would betray him when choosing the 12 apostles, then how does the uninspired GB know they are the "faithful and discreet slave"?    Luke 3:8; Matt 7:16

But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, 5 “Why wasn’t this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages.” 6 He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.  John 12:4-6
Do you really believe it took Jesus that long to find out that Judas was corrupt?  Jesus, who knew the hearts of men?
Here's another example:
"Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat.  When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven".  At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, "This fellow is blaspheming!"  Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?"    Matt 9:2-4
 
Firstly, they state it as fact that Judas was faithful to God and Jesus, then make the supposition that John "must have meant" that Jesus didn't recognize Judas as "bad" until almost a year after he chose him, and that this is what is meant by "from the beginning".  Judas belonged to Satan "from the beginning" as his spawn,  right along with the Pharisees.
 Watchtower’s leaders are so adept at lessening  and hiding the power of Christ; yet, he predicted Peter’s denial of the Christ before Peter fulfilled his words. Luke 22:34    He was a prophet AND the Son of God;  have JWs forgotten this?
I hope you can reason on this through the scriptures, Melinda.  
 
 

“At some point”. Yes, he prayed because he said he did nothing but what the Father told him.  John 5:30; 8:28.  Since God knows all things, do you believe He would keep Judas as the betrayer a secret from Jesus, letting him find out on his own?   You are saying Jesus had no ability given him by God, to read the heart of man. Scriptures say otherwise.  John 2:23-25; 6:64  Judas was chosen as a betrayer.  It sounds like your saying that Jesus was in the dark about who of the 12, would betray him until he proved himself to be a thief.  Both God and Christ knew his heart.  John 2:23-25.  Jesus knew “from the beginning”.  “He knew all men”.   
John 17:12 - While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
Do you believe he didn't know how he would die, or that Pilate would be instrumental in sending him to his death at the demand of the Pharisees?  He knew exactly how it would happen and by whom. 
Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”   John 8:54-58
Judas’ role as the betrayer was fulfilled. Ps 41:9; Mark 14:19-21   Jesus’ choice for the twelfth apostle was Paul; another stumbling block most likely, for JWs. He personally chose all 12 apostles, as well as who would betray him.  Matthias was chosen by men, who cast lots. Acts 1:26
Here are examples of Jesus’ knowing what was in the heart of each person even before speaking with them.
Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
8 Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? Mark 2:6-8
 
When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, “Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit.”48 “How do you know me?” Nathanael asked.
Jesus answered, “I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you.” 49 Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.” John 18:47-49
How did Jesus see him?  Spiritually, physically?  How did he determine that Nathaneal had “no deceit” unless he read his heart?  John 18:47-49
 
 
 
 

@Equivocation  Quote " But if a suit and tie is that bad, why are you wearing a suit and tie, let alone clothing if you say it is tradition of man? " 
When i was in the JW Org, I obeyed the rules. Rules of men. I didn't want to deliberately cause trouble or to embarrass my family by being moaned at by the police, sorry I mean Elders, of the congregation. 
We had an Elder in the congregation, a big man, that really suffered with the heat causing him problems. He never wore a jacket or tie in the hall, BUT he still had to wear a suit and tie when he went up on the platform. They had to put a big electric fan on the edge of the stage each time he was on there. So tell me where is the love and consideration for that Elder ?
And yes they didn't question him for not wearing a jacket and tie in the hall, but I did get 'spoken to' once for not wearing a tie, hence in future I conformed. 
In my opinion it becomes 'traditions of men' when it is not scriptural but is still enforced by 'those in power', the GB down to the Elders. 
And yes certain types of clothing are traditions of men if dictated by humans.
This point has been proven by women in certain secular jobs having to wear high heeled shoes all day, when they would prefer to wear flat comfortable shoes. I believe this has got to the point of actual court cases. I think that proves the tradition of MEN in the true sense. 
And the suit and tie was supposed to represent decency, honesty, trustworthiness, etc. But in many cases it was just used to trick people into thinking that way. However, it has been carried forward to this day, as a tradition of men. 
So is it still necessary ? 

But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.  John 6:64
Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.”  John 13:10,11
 Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did. 24 But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men, 25 and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man.  John 2:23-25
 
 
 
 

Are you foreign that you do not understand English properly ? No disrespect if you are, but it would give me reason to know why you misinterpret  everything i  write.
It was / is the wicked angels, that is the devil and his demons,  that challenge God's sovereignty not me. I just stated the case....  
Hitler could not have done any of the wicked deeds without the majority of Germany backing him.  The  Germans may not have backed him because they wanted to, but maybe out of fear. Just as JW's serve the GB through the Elders, out of fear. 
Just as people come on here , this forum, but use pseudonyms, out of fear of being found out by the Elders.
Felix i see you are using the GB's idea of suggesting people are mentally unstable. Typical Watchtower doctrine. 
Sorry Admin but I'm just answering Felix. Perhaps Felix should start another topic of should i just ignore him ?  
But let's get back on topic. A question 
Is it a disfellowshipping offence to read Raymond Franz books, or to own them ? 

People always seem to harp back to 2000 years ago, to try to make a defence for the GB. 
Different times, different situations.
Judas allowed himself to be misled by the devil, but it also seems it was necessary that the betrayer came from within. 
Maybe you should have quoted this bit as well. "Yet he gets kicked out by the other members of the GB for being an apostate."
Because it seems Raymond Franz didn't betray God or Jesus Christ.
Knowledge of such things is way over my head of course, so I don't know who was right in God's viewpoint.
But it does give a person reason to distrust the GB if RF wasn't found guilty of any real wrongdoing. 

You appear to be placing the GB on the same level as Jesus Christ, which I agree that they have accomplished this.  Jesus altered the Jewish teaching because its leaders spoke as their "father", Satan.  
  Is anyone allowed to alter Jesus' teachings?  
 
Can you give me scriptural verification that the GB is God's coordinated earthly rule?
The Watchtower has corrupted the decrees of God – His Word. God’s “laws” are the source of life which Jesus brought us as, “The Word”. John 1:1 His teachings incorporate every decree God expects us to follow. The WT leaders “judge” and “measure” according to the decrees of men.
  The “Pharisaical” leaders of the WT cannot interpret the decrees of God since they have come as false “christs”, lording it over anointed and all in the organization. Matt 24:24  They expect obedience to them and their decrees, and not to Jesus Christ and his Word, which comes from God.
" Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The WORDS I speak to you I DO NOT SPEAK ON MY OWN. The Father who lives in Me does His works." John 14:10
“Don’t assume that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For I assure you: Until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or one stroke of a letter will pass from the law until all things are accomplished. 19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commands AND TEACHES PEOPLE TO DO SO, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, UNLESS YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS SURPASSES THAT OF THE SCRIBES AND PHARISEES, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 5:17-20
"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you."   Deut 4:2
That's right.