Shiwiii

Here lies the problem of the matter. The people who don't see why it is an issue that children are abused. Thanks for telling us your position on the matter. 

In your opinion is this "God's Kingdom" ? I mean the new heaven and the new earth? 
Logically speaking, I would say yes it is. However what I mean is, God's kingdom will and does consist of everything He has made, but more specifically will heaven and earth be a combination?  

Sure could be. I would agree, and it wouldn't matter much if it were literal or figurative, it is still "new"
Yes, we could. Again I would agree and it would matter not if it were  literal or figurative.
No problem here with me either. I do not think that it HAS to be new vs restored. What part I do take literal is the part of "New Jerusalem" coming down from Heaven. Just like you mention in 2 Corinthians. Which is also mentioned in Galatians 4:21-31. The account in Galatians is much more specific though as to whom is part of this "New Jerusalem" and the account in Revelation 21 ties in perfectly with our topic of discussion here. 

Matt 5:18  -    how is this any support for meek on Earth? I mean Jesus was speaking about what was to come and what would not pass away (the LAW). He was the fulfillment of the LAW as He died without sin. Sure, Jesus said the "meek shall inherit the Earth", I think we see this a bit different and I'll explain once I respond to Revelation 21:1. 
 
Matt 5:34/35  - This section of scripture is speaking of taking an Oath, swearing on your momma's grave, etc. It has nothing to do with meek inheriting the Earth. 
Matt 6:10 - A section of the Lord's prayer is supporting people on Earth vs people in Heaven? I cannot see that in this scripture. The only correlation is that the word "Earth" is used. 
Acts 3:25  -  This is speaking of what God said to Abraham, not a future fulfillment. It was reassuring Abraham that his children and theirs would be looked after by God. 
Acts 17:25/26 - Paul was explaining who God is and what God has done, again not a prophetic statement. 
Ephesians 1:9/10, Colossians 1:20 - Interesting scriptures to use, as they tie in nicely with Revelation 21 as well. to be expounded upon at the end of my response. 
Hebrews 2:5 -  I suspect you are holding to the "inhabited world to come" portion of this scripture. I agree, to an extent and will address this in my response to Revelation 21. 
2 Peter 3:13 -  New heaven and New Earth.....see revelation 21 response
Revelation 5:10, Revelation 11:18 and Revelation 21:1  --  Ok, here is where I can give you my perspective on most of this. We may disagree, but it is up to us to explain using scripture our position. 
Revelation 5:10 is speaking of who will rule and reign and over what. Men from every tribe, nation and language who have been saved by the Blood of Christ are going to reign over the Earth.  Further in Revelation, where you cited ch 11:18, it speaks of those who are ruining the Earth and that God will ruin them. I'm with you here. Now which Earth are we talking about here? The New Earth or the Old one? Because they are not one in the same. Revelation 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.   Here we have scripture stating that the old Earth is gone, dead, passed away. Could this be a restoration of the Earth, sure, but never the less the previous Earth is no more. This is "NEW" Earth. Does scripture tell us which Earth the meek shall inherit? nope, but I suspect it IS this new Earth. We kind of agree here I think. 2 Peter 3:13 talking about this new Heaven and new Earth and Hebrews 2:5, I believe is speaking of this new Earth that is to come as well. Men will be on the Earth, no doubt. They will be governed by those that God selects. 
Now I want to explain my view on Ephesians 1:9&10 and Colossians 1:20. These two sections of scripture talk about a joining together or reconciliation of all the things in Heaven and on Earth to Christ. While Christ alone can do this however He wishes, we are told of another reconciliation which would fit this role as well, but it come much later then the harvest. It comes when the new Heaven and the new Earth come into play. Revelation 21: 2&3 tells us that a new Jerusalem will come down from Heaven and reside on the New Earth and thus God's dwelling place will be with man. This reconciles all things that are in Heaven and all things that are on Earth, to God. He will be among men on the new Earth. So Heaven will come down to Earth. 

This new wt sure looks like a "letter of solicitation" according to the definition. I wonder if this is the reason why the publication has been suspended (no more printed books and such).  Is this a way the wt can still be correct according to their own statement????

This new wt sure looks like a "letter of solicitation" according to the definition. I wonder if this is the reason why the publication has been suspended (no more printed books and such).  Is this a way the wt can still be correct according to their own statement????

The back cover of Nov 2018 wt magazine has a full page asking "What gift can you give to Jehovah?"  There are a few ways to give your "gift" and are explained. Using your web browser or jw library app, you can set up recurring donations. 
How is this not equivalent to passing the plate? 
 

The back cover of Nov 2018 wt magazine has a full page asking "What gift can you give to Jehovah?"  There are a few ways to give your "gift" and are explained. Using your web browser or jw library app, you can set up recurring donations. 
How is this not equivalent to passing the plate? 
 

Sure could be. I would agree, and it wouldn't matter much if it were literal or figurative, it is still "new"
Yes, we could. Again I would agree and it would matter not if it were  literal or figurative.
No problem here with me either. I do not think that it HAS to be new vs restored. What part I do take literal is the part of "New Jerusalem" coming down from Heaven. Just like you mention in 2 Corinthians. Which is also mentioned in Galatians 4:21-31. The account in Galatians is much more specific though as to whom is part of this "New Jerusalem" and the account in Revelation 21 ties in perfectly with our topic of discussion here. 

Every time I hear of this "closing the door" from the WT it reminds me of Matthew 23:13
13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.
 
 

Really? hmmm, ok....from someone who "likes" their own post to increase their status........
 
Please indulge me then with your expertise 

That "succinct" answer is a perfect example of the "skirting" I referred to earlier:
Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Feel That They Are the Only People Who Will Be Saved?
    No. Many millions who lived in centuries past and who weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses will have an opportunity for salvation. The Bible explains that in God’s promised new world, “there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” (Acts 24:15) Additionally, many now living may yet begin to serve God, and they too will gain salvation. In any case, it’s not our job to judge who will or won’t be saved. That assignment rests squarely in Jesus’ hands.—John 5:22, 27. First of all the more generally correct answer is YES, not NO. The question was do Jehovah's Witnesses FEEL that they are the only people who will be saved? In my opinion, millions of them do feel exactly that way, whether or not this matches the official position. In cleaning out 50 years of my parents house for the last week I have read a lot of my deceased grandmother's correspondence with elders, pioneers, and good friends she had all over the world. I was struck by the way assemblies attended in many different nations were often summarized. These ranged from the 1950's up to about 2010. Included in so many of them were expressions like: "Isn't it great to be associated with the only people whom Jehovah will spare through this old system."
Also if we look at the exact wording of the succinct answer you referred to, notice that it never says that anyone other than Jehovah's Witnesses will be saved through Armageddon. The answer is given as "NO" for only two reasons. The first reason is because many non-JWs from centuries past will have an opportunity for salvation through the resurrection. Presumably they will become Jehovah's Witnesses during the 1,000 year reign as we also teach that we will teach them. I'm sure you have also heard convention speakers talking about how in the resurrection we will hear stories from faithful men and women of Bible times, but then we will have the opportunity to teach them what Jehovah has been doing with us.
The second reason for saying the answer is "NO" also speaks vaguely about who may survive Armageddon: "Additionally, many now living may yet begin to serve God." (It's the new motto for the old "Millions" campaign.) This also does not say specifically that any non-JWs may survive Armageddon. Most Witnesses apparently presume that this means that our preaching work may result in more non-JWs becoming JWs.
This brings up another point about the idea that something nearly miraculous is yet to be seen in countries like China, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, India, etc. Expecting that something like this might have to happen first is counter to the idea that the end may come at any time like a thief in the night. The end could happen 5 minutes after you fall asleep tonight, or before I click "Submit Reply." But that couldn't be true if we need to see a miraculous new distribution of JWs around the world, first.

right here tells me you do not know the position of the jws and thus cannot dismiss the questions asked. 
 
again, not according to their teachings. 
 
You may want to believe that the jws think the way you do, but the reality is that the wt teaches otherwise. I can, if you require it, provide proof.
 
You certainly write a lot, but I think some of that is to side track the actual topic in discussion and create an alternate argument about something not even relevant.  

I can appreciate and understand COMPLETELY your position. It is also the reason why I decided to cancel my subscription to participate in the armed forces. Your point is very valid and your perspective is a correct one. I too have a different view of that exact structure and what it fosters. 
I fully acknowledge that the leadership of military organizations is chocked full of folks who have no business being in the positions they are in. It was my personal experiences that led me to reject that form of employment. I worked in many of the places that the "brass" did because of my abilities and training, I was secure comm and was slotted to become one of the elite. What I could not handle and agree with were the very things you mention. I could not continue to support an organization that deliberately went against morality to save face for a few, all the while putting those under them in harms way because of it. So I left. It really is no difference in the corporate world, except your are not there to protect anything but the higher ups bonus and no one is in harms way. 
When this philosophy is attached my eternal destiny, and not just my paycheck, things take a very different course of action. I do not throw my hat in ANY ring! Do I have fellowship? yes. Do I have those whom I seek for help on Spiritual matters? yes. Are they the end all be all and no questions when it comes to their interpretation? no. I cannot allow someone else to take the rudder out of my hands on something so important as this. Am I perfect and have all of the answers? no, but who is the one to answer to God when that day comes? Me and only me. So when I see organizations, such as the wt, make such high demands upon their members without the ability for them to question or disagree, I have to speak up about it. 
I am no prophet nor fortuneteller, but I strongly believe you will never see this happen, no one will. The reason why is the mistakes being made are far to serious and underhanded to be forgotten or dismissed to the educated mind. As our world progresses so does common knowledge (we hope), and it is only a matter of time before the truth about the "truth" comes out in such a way that the society/wt goes the way of the dodo. People are only as stupid as they allow themselves to be. If people choose to hide their head in the sand and ignore what is really going on, they will be ignorant and accept whatever is being fed to them. The history of this org and their claims and practices  should be enough, but at this point it isn't. One must now look into the past and compare the current teachings, if the material isn't lost or changed, and truly see if God is backing their actions. I have researched these things and cannot believe that God has anything to do with this org. Just like you said "All civilizations grow and evolve, and the casualties are ENORMOUS.   The United States of America has committed innumerable sins and evils in it's pursuit of righteousness, equity and Justice ... and is continuing to do so." , but none of the civilizations were the answer to our eternal destiny. It is a growth process, but you can only grow so very far by tyranny. Tyranny like those of the Pharaohs and Pharisees is what we are looking at within the wt from my view.  
 
 

That's the part I don't get either. 
 
I don't think if it were proven true that it would make any difference to you JTR. You'd still throw your hat in their camp, because its the best game in town, in your view. You've said as much. Your last sentence is a complete contradiction of what they have said for years and years, but its still not enough to convince you that this group the jws/wt is following men, use to be 7 men and now 8 again. You had mentioned in a different post that you are with the jws and it doesn't matter who is in charge or leading the group. While I agree that there are some fine folks who are jws and moral people they are for the most part, its still lemming mentality to continue to follow the group just because they are nice people being led by who knows. I will also apologize now for singling out just you here, I am sorry, I do not mean to make you upset or have a distaste for me. I like you, I like your sense of humor and your wit, and that is why I singled you out. 
I would hope that instances like this would make a person pause, take a step back and take an honest look at what is being taught/told/demanded of jws. The compounding problems that are coming up from this org should be enough for people to open their eyes and do diligent research on EVERYTHING, but sadly many are in a position in which they either cannot leave due to family, or are so blinded that they cannot see what is going on. When a group tells its people be ready to obey our instruction no matter how crazy we sound, that right there should be a red flag. Ignoring the obvious doesn't make it go away.  I see it daily, the jws keep on the edge of their seats waiting for the next hoop that they need to jump through to look good to each other. Its like high school, except in high school we didn't know any better and now as adults some still need that social group to belong to and refuse to grow up. 

What are you going to call it when it is true?   Spiritual food? 
No need for them to be THAT stupid, its already been declared that jws should follow the direction no matter how stupid. 
"All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not." Watchtower 2013 Nov 15 p.20

When I see one walk into Bethel with a pillow, blanket and a dirty mag, and be totally self satisfying.....THAT is a Bethelite. 
 
Seriously, how weird does it have to be there for the wt to have to make videos about self pleasure, one for the guys and one for the girls. Now that is a leaked video, pillowgate 2018 brought to you by wt. Can't wait for the sign language version to come out. 

I can appreciate and understand COMPLETELY your position. It is also the reason why I decided to cancel my subscription to participate in the armed forces. Your point is very valid and your perspective is a correct one. I too have a different view of that exact structure and what it fosters. 
I fully acknowledge that the leadership of military organizations is chocked full of folks who have no business being in the positions they are in. It was my personal experiences that led me to reject that form of employment. I worked in many of the places that the "brass" did because of my abilities and training, I was secure comm and was slotted to become one of the elite. What I could not handle and agree with were the very things you mention. I could not continue to support an organization that deliberately went against morality to save face for a few, all the while putting those under them in harms way because of it. So I left. It really is no difference in the corporate world, except your are not there to protect anything but the higher ups bonus and no one is in harms way. 
When this philosophy is attached my eternal destiny, and not just my paycheck, things take a very different course of action. I do not throw my hat in ANY ring! Do I have fellowship? yes. Do I have those whom I seek for help on Spiritual matters? yes. Are they the end all be all and no questions when it comes to their interpretation? no. I cannot allow someone else to take the rudder out of my hands on something so important as this. Am I perfect and have all of the answers? no, but who is the one to answer to God when that day comes? Me and only me. So when I see organizations, such as the wt, make such high demands upon their members without the ability for them to question or disagree, I have to speak up about it. 
I am no prophet nor fortuneteller, but I strongly believe you will never see this happen, no one will. The reason why is the mistakes being made are far to serious and underhanded to be forgotten or dismissed to the educated mind. As our world progresses so does common knowledge (we hope), and it is only a matter of time before the truth about the "truth" comes out in such a way that the society/wt goes the way of the dodo. People are only as stupid as they allow themselves to be. If people choose to hide their head in the sand and ignore what is really going on, they will be ignorant and accept whatever is being fed to them. The history of this org and their claims and practices  should be enough, but at this point it isn't. One must now look into the past and compare the current teachings, if the material isn't lost or changed, and truly see if God is backing their actions. I have researched these things and cannot believe that God has anything to do with this org. Just like you said "All civilizations grow and evolve, and the casualties are ENORMOUS.   The United States of America has committed innumerable sins and evils in it's pursuit of righteousness, equity and Justice ... and is continuing to do so." , but none of the civilizations were the answer to our eternal destiny. It is a growth process, but you can only grow so very far by tyranny. Tyranny like those of the Pharaohs and Pharisees is what we are looking at within the wt from my view.  
 
 

Ahem... the word I used was subpoena, which BECOMES a functional summons.
For your obfuscation and irrelevancy, and deliberate agenda driven lack of reading comprehension. AllenSmith ......  I sentence you to a lifetime of being you.

Aha!
...but Geoffrey Jackson was an Australian Citizen .... visiting in Australia, and he was served the summons IN AUSTRALIA.
He was legally compelled under pain of contempt to appear ... AND TRIED NOT TO.
HE WAS NOT A WILLING PARTICIPANT.
.... and I noticed that you answer was "Nothing" ... which does not apply in this case,.
Let me rephrase my question and see if you can wiggle out of giving a REAL answer .....
2.)  If you were in the exact same circumstances in EVERY WAY that Geoffrey Jackson was ... would you have disobeyed the summons ?
3.) and to repeat my FIRST question with the criteria of question No. 2,:  " 1.) If YOU were issued a summons, and it was served on YOU, to appear in court, and YOU refused to appear ... what do you think would happen?"
What DO you think would happen?
 

WHAT?!?!?!?! I don't thin k he really knew what he said right there. 
 
yep. And that is why my personal belief is that like you said, there are plenty of organizations that have this and other corruptions, so my relationship with God is mine and mine alone. I align with a group of folks, but in the end I answer to God, not the group.  There is an extent to organized religion where I will participate. 

@Shiwiii it disrupts the idea that the organization is a "spiritual paradise" or an oasis of purity in an evil world. Adherents can't realize that the organization has filth in it just like many other organized religions, because it would destroy the notion that the WT is superior as the "true religion". In fact, today the CO at my kingdom hall referenced child molestation as a way to verify that a religion DOES NOT have God's backing!
JWs 100% deserve transparency on this matter, but they've gotten the opposite. The way this has been handled proves that men are calling the shots here and not God. Only an imperfect human would think they could "contain the stink." Maybe they can prevent JWs from seeing the ugly truth, but they cannot conceal it from Jehovah God.

How is this not equivalent to passing the plate?  
Why would there be a need for an ATM, or many,  at an event like this? There is no food to be purchased or items to buy that I am aware of. 

Why won't the head of the wt org admit that abuse is a problem within the society (yes, I understand that j jackson has in a round about way admitted this) and that they are willing to accept help to protect the people within the org? Is it PRIDE? The Catholic Church has offered help to the jws in the upcoming Holland investigation. They're been there and done that and know what it takes to keep on ticking. The government of Australia has given recommendations.  It appears that the head of the wt is more concerned with getting money, real estate, constant requests for voluntary donations, taking on the loans from local kh's only to make those payments by the local kh endless, special announcements and written articles on how to leave your estate to the wt (just make sure if its land that it is able to be sold), etc.  Why is the focus not on the problem that keep rearing its head worldwide? The governments of The United States, Australia, the UK, Canada and most recently Holland all have seen that the wt is not about to help the situation, but rather do their best to hinder it. What good reason is there for the obstruction of justice and complete disregard for victims or the countries in which these things are being investigated? How can one believe that this org is being used by God at all? Doesn't the Bible say at 1 Peter 2:13-20 to be subject to those who govern over you and by doing right you silence the ignorance of foolish men? Seems to me that the wt leadership is doing the exact opposite. 
 
WHY? 

Couldn't agree more with your view here. Sadly it is NOT the view of the wt. They came out after the ARC and stated that they will NOT be changing the two witness rule no matter who says what. Pedo's don't normally invite a viewing party. This is the loophole that, maybe wasn't designed for this, is the perfect avenue for repeat abuse. The octo-popes of wt know this, but refuse to change for some reason. 
oh I am not ignoring this point, but rather magnifying it. You are correct that an abuser uses clever ways of carrying out the abuse, but why make it eaiser? Why give them a loophole? 
 
They've admitted that they will NOT change their stance. Maybe they did learn, but they refuse to put it into practice. 
agreed, and it should be done with qualified persons. Elders are not qualified, yet. I hope that one day there IS a training curriculum for them to be able to be qualified.
 
Thank you for your thoughts and giving me, and the rest of us, a glimpse of your part of the world and its own view on things. I truly appreciate your contributions to this and other threads. To see an outsiders view, from a place where corruption is partly normal (isn't it everywhere on some scale), is refreshing. I agree with most of what you wrote and my only point in this whole thread is that the wt CAN make a difference. They CAN educate the elders, they CAN inform the police and they CAN make this official policy. They can do this without anything more than dropping their pride and accepting help in making it a reality. Obviously they cannot do it on their own, or they would have. Since they boast about the worldwide brotherhood adhering to the same teachings, they can make the necessary changes to at the least prevent ONE child from abuse. They can do that, they just refuse.